Why aren't people more concerned about death?

liberatedatheist
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Why aren't people more concerned about death?

Hey guys,

I haven't posted in a while but a recent crisis has caused me to come back. A few weeks ago it really hit me what it means to die from an atheistic perspective. I was watching a t.v. show where they showed a character dying from a first person perspective where he slowly slipped into unconsciousness. this reminds me of a time where i had surgery and the anesthetic was administered intravenously and i obviously didn't realize i passed out until i came to. Just imagining never coming to and not even realizing i died makes me nauseated. I can't see how anyone could be ok with not existing. because we perceive the universe from the first person the universe existing is predicated on my own personal existence. if i was never born it would have been like nothing ever existed and when i die the entire universe and everything i love dies with me. if you somehow take comfort in knowing that the universe will exist for others after you are gone, well they will all die soon enough. Everything succumbs to annihilation.

I can't deal with this. I got suicidal pretty quickly. All i think about is my death, how even if i killed myself it would be phenomenologically exactly the same to dying after some happy life. so what's the point of putting in the effort? I'm no longer suicidal if you are worried about that but i am constantly depressed. I have lost all desire to do anything, i can't focus on anything related to living. what is the point of being famous or earning a lot of money when no one will ever be able to escape annihilation? life has lost all value for me and i really don't see how other atheists are so nonchalant about it.

On the flip side it annoys me when theists are so desperate to prolong life. if they actually believe their religions are true then their death day should be the greatest day of their lives

tl;dr how do you guys cope with death? how do you have the willpower to do anything when it doesn't matter?

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Suppose that I just bought

Suppose that I just bought my favorite ice cream in the world, a Founder's Favorite at Coldstone Creamery. It is a sweet cream ice cream with pecans, brownies, fudge and caramel. The ice cream is high quality and just right, not too mushy and drippy like Old Country Buffet ice cream and not too hard like a popsicle. The caramel and fudge draped over the white dome like little strings make it irresistibly sweet, but not too much of it, so it won't be too sugary and sweet; this is balanced with the more restrained sweetness, warmth, and solidness of the chunks of brownies and pecans.

One day, I'll be gone, and I won't be able to have any more ice cream because there will be no "I." Eventually, even this amazing ice cream or any knowledge of it will disappear from the universe.  Yes, it is very sad to think about; yet, I will still savor this ice cream because the ultimate demise of it is not relevant to the fact that it is sitting in front of me right now. And it is f*ing delicious.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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When I die, I will be just

When I die, I will be just like my grandmother, my mother, the very best dog in the world - I will be dead just like they are.  They all really do hold a place in my memories.  And I hope the people I love will remember me when I am dead.  If not, then why should I care?  I will be dead and I won't know.

Like friend Butterbattle, I will savor what life brings me.  Ice cream, truffles, sex, rain on the roof, autumn leaves tumbling through the air, waterfalls, and all the other joys of my life.  My purpose is to make my corner of the world a little better before I leave it permanently.  Maybe not a lot better, but to do what I can.  Remember, even religious people have no better handle on life - god/s/dess does not tweet them every day with updates on meaning, purpose, goals and directives.  They, too, are just putting one foot in front of the other.

 

So get up off your ass, get a hug, go for a walk, clean your place, and generally get on with your life already.  You will die when you die and not a second earlier.  Put one foot in front of the freaking other and move it!

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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I am probably much closer to

I am probably much closer to death than you, altho I can probably expect another 20 years or so.

One of my keys is having lived a life where I have had a pretty broad range of experiences, been to a lot of places around the world, which has left me with a marvellous set of memories.

This helps me cope with the thought that the end of the ride is getting closer.

I very much agree with butterbattle - you are falling for the same 'argument' which Theists think is important, ie, "How can anything be 'really' enjoyable or worth taking part in, if it is just going to end?"

We have to be able to relax a bit more, maybe 'live in the moment' more, enjoy it will it lasts, especially all the high points, which are even more transitory.

I went thru a dark period last year, with possible bankruptcy and loss of everything I had weighing on me. My fears were a bit over-done, but I pulled away from things like participating on this board in a feeling that I could not afford to 'waste' time on things which were not going to help me financially survive.

But eventually I realized that that only made things worse - the sense of participation and feedback, especially when people reacted positively to my posts, was extremely valuable psychologically, and without that kind of thing, I was much more in danger of spiralling into serious depression.

I don't have kids, but I have been able to help enough people in various ways, and received grateful thanks for it, so I can feel some satisfaction there.

Quote:

Just imagining never coming to and not even realizing i died makes me nauseated.

See that is the most illogical part of it. How can you really 'imagine' not coming to... There is nothing to imagine.

I think of it like going to sleep.

Don't mistake me, I do 'get' why that could still worry you, even if it doesn't quite make sense - our feelings are not 'rational'.

I don't know how I could cope with knowing in advance the time of my death. I want to either die in my sleep or in a sudden accident.

So get off your butt, and get involved with people, even if you have to force yourself a bit. Do stuff, don't just sit and agonize over the 'pointlessness' of it all.

Hope this helps a bit.

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Hi liberatedatheist,Sorry to

Hi liberatedatheist,

Sorry to hear you're feeling depression. That really sucks.

(I'm not a professional, this is merely my own opinion.)

First, I'd like to recommend this recent discussion that seems very closely related to me: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/29497

Second, to re-emphasize my major point in that discussion: Take the idea of your mental health as seriously as you would usually take the idea of your physical health. If you had a broken arm, it seems obvious you'd want to get it treated. Unfortunately, there's an unfounded bias in much of society against treating mental health the same way. If you are experiencing depression, which suicidal feelings are a clear warning flag of, then realize that depression is a medical condition just like having a broken arm, or diabetes, or cancer, or an infection is. There are causes of depression, and it may not actually be your contemplation of death that's the root cause, but it could actually be something else, and your contemplation of death just triggered it to go into suicidal thoughts. Anyway, it might be worth seeing a mental health professional, or even just your regular doctor to get a referral. That's up to you, of course. I only mention this because it's not as common knowledge as it should be.

Regarding death: There's a saying that sums up my feelings on the subject quite well, which paraphrased goes something like this: Why should I be bothered by death? I didn't exist for billions of years before I was born, and I didn't suffer one bit from it, so why should I fear not existing in the future?

Another one: I don't fear death. I fear the process of dying.

There will never be a time when you will ever feel anything like: "Argh! It sucks so much to be dead!!!" It's logically impossible.

Now, there are two other related concepts, one of which you focused on, so I'll just get the other one out of the way as quick as possible: The process of dying may suck and be painful, but at least it's finite and will eventually end.

So, to answer your questions about 'why bother?':

1) While 'you' or 'I' will not necessarily be around to directly observe it, the universe and all its inhabitants will still be around after you and I die. For example, if you have any friends or family, many of them will survive you, and the question is: Will what you do NOW have a positive or negative impact on your own life now, but also on the lives of those you care for when you're gone?

If I die tomorrow, I would not have accomplished all I've wanted to accomplish, but I will have left at least some positive legacy behind, such as all the posts I've written here on RRS and elsewhere, as well as the impact I've had in the lives of my family members, the students I'm now tutoring, etc.

While 'I' will not be the one experiencing these beneficial effects of 'my' life, why should I consider that beneficial effect as completely and utterly worthless? It isn't. It is valuable to people I care about, and that makes it valuable to me.

And what makes 'me' so special anyway, such that nothing else matters except my own experience? Seems a bit on the ego side of things. The ego is good for self-protection sometimes, but it can also be very self-destructive if it dominates your life. You are not your idea of you. You are you. Your idea of you, your ego, is just an idea. It is part of you, but it is not you.

You are a conscious mind. It is consciousness which is the valuable thing here. And your consciousness is not the only consciousness that exists. And it's not only your friends and family that are conscious minds, too. There's the entire human species, and--if we are completely honest with ourselves--there are countless other non-human animals who can experience joy or suffering, also.

What we do in this lifetime has inevitable consequences which ripple out into the future, even after 'we' are technically dead.

Our sphere of influence extends not only beyond our immediate physical environment (e.g. I'm communicating with you while you and I are far apart), but also extends beyond our own brief lifetimes into the future, where we can have a real, lasting, measurable effect on whatever conscious minds continue existing after we die.

So, our lives have real, tangible meaning beyond our own particular conscious awareness of that effect.

2) Even disregarding the conscious minds of others or the future, life can be enjoyed simply by living it (assuming something like depression isn't interfering with your ability to enjoy life). Why bother waking up tomorrow? Simply because there are things that I would like to do that I haven't done yet. Who cares if there's some infinite chain of meaning forever and for all time into the future. It's meaningful to me, right now, to be writing this reply to you. It is the thing that I want to do. And it harms no one else, so there's no reason not to do it. And, heck, it might even help you out a bit, and the thought of that simply makes me feel good and motivates me to do it.

And that's good enough for me, at least to keep on living and keep on trying to do better and better things in my life to help myself and to help others as well. Any way you look at it, it is more valuable to me to keep going and keep trying to make the world into something that I think would be better, than to give up, stop wondering what I might be able to do, stop being curious about the future, stop caring about everything, and just quit the game. Quitting remains an option for me, it's just that it is by definition the VERY LAST possible option because as soon as I quit, there are no more options to try.

So, to sum up: I would recommend getting checked out, just to make sure there isn't some underlying issue you might not be aware of which might be influencing your thoughts and feelings. And, regardless of that, your life has meaning for you in this very moment of your existence, as you sit there reading this (assuming you're sitting), otherwise you wouldn't be reading it. And regardless of that, your life also has meaning for every person who is influenced by you (me included; see, I just spent 20 minutes writing this simply because you asked and I had a feeling I could answer something helpful), not only while you live, but also after you die.

None of this requires believing in anything supernatural or god-like.

In fact, you may want to ask yourself what 'eternal life' would really get you!? If you could live for eternity after this brief life, then what the fuck is the point of this mortal life?! Think about it. Valuable things are rare and precious. You get one life, and it is short and finite. You've got a limited amount of time to do whatever it is that you really want to do. Every second that passes, in which you're not doing what you really want to do, is a second wasted.

So, my suggestion: Figure out what you really want to do, and just do it. You've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

(I repeat: My suggestion only works if there isn't some underlying issue that's interfering with your ability to enjoy life. So, I would again suggest to get that checked out first.)

Good luck! I've struggled with depression too, and am actually getting help with it now, so I at least have an inkling of what you're talking about. There can be a better life. You just have to make it a goal to keep trying to find it for yourself.

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Hey there Lib

 

I agree with the others here. You need to live with all your might because one day your consciousness will switch off. This is nothing to fear but it does mean the end of your experience. There are times when thinking about this reality deeply that I experience a sort of intense vertigo - the realisation of being in this place and able to know it, to not know the truth but to know there is an explanation - the peculiarity of our awareness of existence as a random atomic form can be unsettling and exhilarating. 

Like cj and butter and bob and co say upthread - work out what you like to do and get stuck into it. Consciousness is a moment-by-moment deal anyway so fuck worrying about tomorrow or twenty years away and do something worthwhile now. There's really no time to waste. Work, play, help other people. And be true to your feelings. A sense of being overwhelmed by life is not surprising in the least. It's a normal part of the human experience. And so is sharing your frets with the people who love you, Lib. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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liberatedatheist wrote: I

liberatedatheist wrote:
I was watching a t.v. show where they showed a character dying from a first person perspective where he slowly slipped into unconsciousness. this reminds me of a time where i had surgery and the anesthetic was administered intravenously and i obviously didn't realize i passed out until i came to.

And how upsetting was it while you were knocked out?

liberatedatheist wrote:
Just imagining never coming to and not even realizing i died makes me nauseated.

Because you're dwelling on it, instead of being pleased that you're alive.

If you were ever convinced that you were about to die, and ended up living, your thoughts would predominantly be about making the most of every living day.

liberatedatheist wrote:
I can't see how anyone could be ok with not existing.

It's more about reconciling that no amount of energy spent will change what is inevitable, and focusing on the opportunities that being alive affords you.

liberatedatheist wrote:
...so what's the point of putting in the effort?

It appears to me that you don't have a lot of love, happiness or passion in your life. Those are the kinds of things that make you eager to greet the next day.

 

liberatedatheist wrote:
life has lost all value for me and i really don't see how other atheists are so nonchalant about it.

It's not about being nonchalant, IMO. It's about being a realist.

liberatedatheist wrote:
 how do you guys cope with death?

I've always flirted with death. I'm an adrenaline junkie. I grew up racing motorcycles for most of my life, and did some vintage sports car racing. I'm also into extreme skiing.

In my case, I've already used up most of my 9 lives, so, I feel like I've won the jackpot and been reborn more than once.

 

liberatedatheist wrote:
 how do you have the willpower to do anything when it doesn't matter?

I don't need willpower. There's not enough hours in a day for me to do everything I'd like to do. I don't have time to dwell on negative things that I can't do anything about.

liberatedatheist wrote:
 Why aren't people more concerned about death?
 There's no nice way for me to say this, but I have to ask "Why?"  ... "So they can be just like you?". I hope you talk to a professional about this. This is a pattern that is very negative, and chances are will snowball. A person can get past this. You need to get past this. This is not emotionally healthy for you. Talk to your doctor. You may be suffering from depression. Take care of yourself.

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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liberatedatheist wrote: Hey

liberatedatheist wrote:
 Hey guys,

I haven't posted in a while but a recent crisis has caused me to come back. A few weeks ago it really hit me what it means to die from an atheistic perspective. I was watching a t.v. show where they showed a character dying from a first person perspective where he slowly slipped into unconsciousness. this reminds me of a time where i had surgery and the anesthetic was administered intravenously and i obviously didn't realize i passed out until i came to. Just imagining never coming to and not even realizing i died makes me nauseated. I can't see how anyone could be ok with not existing. because we perceive the universe from the first person the universe existing is predicated on my own personal existence. if i was never born it would have been like nothing ever existed and when i die the entire universe and everything i love dies with me. if you somehow take comfort in knowing that the universe will exist for others after you are gone, well they will all die soon enough. Everything succumbs to annihilation.

I can't deal with this. I got suicidal pretty quickly. All i think about is my death, how even if i killed myself it would be phenomenologically exactly the same to dying after some happy life. so what's the point of putting in the effort? I'm no longer suicidal if you are worried about that but i am constantly depressed. I have lost all desire to do anything, i can't focus on anything related to living. what is the point of being famous or earning a lot of money when no one will ever be able to escape annihilation? life has lost all value for me and i really don't see how other atheists are so nonchalant about it.

On the flip side it annoys me when theists are so desperate to prolong life. if they actually believe their religions are true then their death day should be the greatest day of their lives 

 We actually have a good experience with non-existence. Remember the last time you went to sleep and woke up without remembering any dreams? That's how it must be to not exist. If you're not afraid to get asleep, you shouldn't be afraid to die. But you know you got one chance to do anything in this world. We live in unique times of decay, change and revolution in all areas of society. We either change radically as a whole humanity, or get extinct. This is extremely captivating thing to observe and even more to participate on. Fuck death. Medieval ages ended and life's just starting to get interesting.

You seem to commit the same fallacy like many theists do. Just because life is not eternal and ends with death, doesn't mean it's meaningless. An eternal life can actually be even more meaningless. 
Did you ever read biography of someone admirable? Or enjoyed someone's works of art? They eventually died, but they made your life better, though not necessarily longer. So why shouldn't you try to contribute to the quality of life of others? What about dying with a sense of achievement? It seems quite selfish to resent your own death. Don't be afraid of death, be afraid of dying after an unfulfilled life. 

On the other hand, it must be nice to die after you get weary of everyting, good and bad. Who wants to stay old forever?

liberatedatheist wrote:
 tl;dr how do you guys cope with death? how do you have the willpower to do anything when it doesn't matter?

I'm a classy new age type with reincarnation of humans into humans, had read Robert Allan Monroe and so on. My life philosophy is to manage my personality and make it work. Whatever can be done, should be done. Because I really don't want my next incarnation burdened with some debts and undone work from the previous incarnation. Quite opposite, I'm the lazy pseudo-hardworking type, who wants to do the work in advance and then have lots of free time and fun. 
I don't feel safe living on this planet, because it is such a mess. I want order, harmony and simplicity for all. I want a future, that will be simple to live in. No stupid consumerism, no meaningless choices, but freedom through simple existential security to pursue anything interesting. 

I'm not afraid of being dead, or the process of dying (can't be worse than some of my dentist visits), but of dying inconveniently. Look, I spent so many years growing up, attending school, performing hygiene and other annoying work. Would I throw away this extreme investment of time, energy and resources? Nope! Suicide, what a nonsense. I wasted many precious years by finding who and what I am, recovering from traumas, getting rid of the non-essential and mucking around in bad education. Now it's the time to get my life into motion. If I could live again with what I know now, I'd be elsewhere by now.

There is but one problem that really needs to be taken care of. I must find some way how to have fun, I mean, a real emotional and social fun. Otherwise I might catch some nasty psychosomatical disease and die whether I want it or not. (I had problems with that before) Isn't that a bleak worldview? Yeah, but it's the best I managed so far and I'm ready to improve it.  

 

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I find this question loaded

I find this question loaded and quite frankly silly.

You miss the context when asking this question.

Why should I be concerned about death? It depends. I am not concerned about death anymore than I am concerned about gravity, cant do a damned thing about it ultimately, but I don't go looking for it. You don't worry about birth and that can have just as much pain and misery as death.

That would be like worrying about the seasons changing or the tides being caused by the gravity of the moon.

We do worry about pain, and we do worry about suffering, and we do worry about what our loved ones would go through without us. But it is silly to worry about nature as if you can change it.

Just like although I don't worry about gravity, I don't jump off cliffs or buildings to test it.

I simply hope for myself, that my death is quick and as painless as possible, and I dont see it coming.

But death as a reality of nature does not, nor should not prevent one from enjoying the time we do have here and now. Just like you can watch a movie or go to a sporting event and enjoy it knowing it will end at some point.

Pain and suffering are a reality and life is not static or infinite. You are going to have happy times, and bad times, and no matter what, your body, will falter and give out to something at some point. That doesn't mean you have to spend your life worrying about a fact of reality.

Humans wouldn't have evolved if we spent every moment of our lives scared saying "I'm going to die". And there ain't a damned thing you can do accept try to delay it. But no human will ever escape it and live forever.

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For me

For me, the fact that all things are temporary and do not last, is what gives me the pleasure of life. When times are good, I try to enjoy them that much more because I know that they do not last. When times are bad, I know that eventually it will pass.

There is an old saying among my biker bros, whenever we have to attend the funeral of a friend. When we bury them, we bury a piece of ourselves with them and when we ride we carry a piece of them with us.

To be honest, the fact that life is so short, is what gives me the drive to do as much as I can, while I have the time.

Oh sure, I would love to live a couple of hundred years, BUT forever ? Can you imagine living 500 years, 1,000 years, 5,000 years or 100,000 years ?

To me, achieving immortality would be depressing. What would be the use in hurrying to do anything ? You would only have forever to live.

I have gone through bouts of depression, both as a theist and as an atheist. It was far worse when I was a theist, because I had the idea that god was punishing me and I kept looking for ultimate purposes behind all that was happening to me.

Life is alot better as an Atheist, for I know that I have to make my own way in this world and it is up to me to do the best I can. That doesn't mean that things always work out the way that I want them to, for I assure you that they do not, but at least I don't have the shadow of some invisible deity hanging over my head and keeping me in a state of perpetual guilt.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 I saw a man die relatively

 I saw a man die relatively recently. The tormented look of anguish on his face haunted me nightly. I had dreams that I was dying and that it was more horrifying than anything I'd ever imagined.

 With that said, I realized that I'd be much happier if I didn't fully commit myself to the worst possible outcome. You could die suddenly without realizing what is happening or having any time to think about it. You could die fighting for what's right; standing against injustice or defending the weak. You could die without regret. Hell, you could even die with an 18 year old girl's pussy in your face. You could die well so live well and hedge your bets. 

 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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 Your life is worth

 Your life is worth precisely the value you put on it, no more, no less. Like butterbattle (thanks a lot butter, I'm craving ice cream now) with the ice cream, just because it will eventually be gone isn't a good reason to avoid enjoying it now. If anything, the idea that I will simply cease to exist motivates me to enjoy everyday as much as I can. I could die today and if I do, I want to make sure I die doing something I enjoy. Going through life being miserable is like going on vacation and being depressed the whole time because you know your vacation will end. The fact that it will end should encourage you to appreciate the time that you do have.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Gauche wrote: I saw a man

Gauche wrote:

 I saw a man die relatively recently. The tormented look of anguish on his face haunted me nightly. I had dreams that I was dying and that it was more horrifying than anything I'd ever imagined.

 With that said, I realized that I'd be much happier if I didn't fully commit myself to the worst possible outcome. You could die suddenly without realizing what is happening or having any time to think about it. You could die fighting for what's right; standing against injustice or defending the weak. You could die without regret. Hell, you could even die with an 18 year old girl's pussy in your face. You could die well so live well and hedge your bets. 

Strong men have the worst time getting old dying. My friend worked half a year as a nurse in England. She took care of elderly people. The worst were the military men, even a general or something. They treat the old age as war and death as just another enemy. They hold onto life so much, that they make a completely miserable and undignified long self-torture out of dying. Or they manage to make their body stay, though the wits are gone and then they live like zombies for about 10 years before the life wears out of them. That's often the case with materialists, I mean, those who make a great deal out of material possessions. 

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I guess it's a simple

I guess it's a simple question of "Do you want to be a slave to your fear?"

It seems like, with a climb in the phobia of germs, unknown, death, hypochondria and what have you anxiety-related problems in the last 20-30 years, it seems every generation is getting a little more spineless and cowardly than the last. Compare "Let's roll!" (on one of the potential 9/11 planes) to the 2007 Virgina Tech incident: students scrambling out of windows to avoid the shooter, determined not to be the last one to escape their classrooms. Yeah, they have their whole lives ahead of themselves... but it only takes 1 student risking their lives for the sake of everyone else's.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Not existing

 

I think we get a bit scared of the word 'death'. Basically it is just going back to not existing. Before 1966 I didn't exist. In 1066 I didn't exist and I wasn't bothered by it at all. In fact before I was born I didn't existed for billions and billions of years and I didn't even notice it. I probably won't be around in 2066 and will in the same non existent state as I was happily in before.

It's a simplistic way of looking at it but it suits me.

Dean


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Beyond Saving wrote: Your

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Your life is worth precisely the value you put on it, no more, no less. Like butterbattle (thanks a lot butter, I'm craving ice cream now) with the ice cream, just because it will eventually be gone isn't a good reason to avoid enjoying it now. If anything, the idea that I will simply cease to exist motivates me to enjoy everyday as much as I can. I could die today and if I do, I want to make sure I die doing something I enjoy. Going through life being miserable is like going on vacation and being depressed the whole time because you know your vacation will end. The fact that it will end should encourage you to appreciate the time that you do have.  

I agree, so why is my life worth less to you because I am not a clone of you? It seems to me life to you is only worth it if your goal is about wealth and anyone who doesn't reach it must have done something wrong which is silly because those who do reach wealth do it on the backs of those who manage to break into the middle class or struggle as working poor, who outnumber your attitude of " I am better than all others because I have more money"

My biggest problem with you has never been what you want, but your attitude that your paycheck means you are more moral by proxy of size and that your work will always trump luck, which is utter bullshit.

Here is the reality. I AGREE THAT LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT, but you, are still stuck in script thinking, the same stupid script thinking that class is everything and pay and status is everything.

You to me are no different than the tribal labels you rightfully condemn as far as religion.

Life is not a script and you, out of all the atheists I know, have to be one of the most annoying atheists who cannot see that they fall along the same script argument they rightfully condemn theists of.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Hey lib

 I have gone through this kind of depression and have felt like rushing death. I am glad I held on and didn't try. I might have failed and maimed myself and been worse off. Just give it time and there is some great advise here about just pushing yourself to doing something different. Nothing big, just something simple and build from there. You are just having feelings. There is a reality beyond it. You can honor them by just feeling them. They will pass in time.

Just think how rare life is in this great universe and the odds of you being alive are extremely small.  I now love the world I live in and just keep finding new things I am interested in. I recently picked up kayaking. I don't have to go down some great rapids. I just have a few small rivers by me and I floated happily down the stream. Also I bought a crank forward bicycle and love riding it. Think of something you have never done before and give it a try. I recommend doing something physical to give your brain a break and maybe get some endorphins going.  You don't have to like it and you don't have to do it again. There is a wealth of info on the internet about every conceivable thing.

Hang in there. You will thank yourself in time.

 

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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*bump*

Brian37 wrote:
I agree, so why is my life worth less to you because I am not a clone of you? It seems to me life to you is only worth it if your goal is about wealth and anyone who doesn't reach it must have done something wrong which is silly because those who do reach wealth do it on the backs of those who manage to break into the middle class or struggle as working poor, who outnumber your attitude of " I am better than all others because I have more money"

My biggest problem with you has never been what you want, but your attitude that your paycheck means you are more moral by proxy of size and that your work will always trump luck, which is utter bullshit.

Here is the reality. I AGREE THAT LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT, but you, are still stuck in script thinking, the same stupid script thinking that class is everything and pay and status is everything.

You to me are no different than the tribal labels you rightfully condemn as far as religion.

Life is not a script and you, out of all the atheists I know, have to be one of the most annoying atheists who cannot see that they fall along the same script argument they rightfully condemn theists of.

Bring the hate!

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:Bring the hate!

Kapkao wrote:

Bring the hate!

That game looks awesome! What is its name? 
Very well, it's Baldur's Gate 2. Nevermind. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:Kapkao

Luminon wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

Bring the hate!

That game looks awesome! What is its name? 
Very well, it's Baldur's Gate 2. Nevermind. 

Sorry, I fell asleep this afternoon. Yes, you got the game correct.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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To paraphrase Cmdr. Riker

 Speak for yourself; I plan to live forever. 


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I love your photo

 love the photo, is that you?


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Awhile back, I wrote a blog

Awhile back, I wrote a blog post regarding death. Here it is. The point made there is atheism better equips us for dealing with death than theism does by making us realize our own mortality.

 

I realize that it's difficult to deal with death, but think of it this way: Whoever you lost is still alive in memories and in consequences of their actions. In a way, we're all immortal.


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 @marshalltenbearsYes, yes

 @marshalltenbears

Yes, yes it is. 

 


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About a documentary I watched recently.

 This documentary I found on Netflix entitled "Flight From Death" raises some interesting facts, including a study in which subjects were subliminally caused to think about their own eventual demise and then given a questionnaire concerning some kind of ethical situation.  It's been a week or two since I watched it but I'm pretty sure I remember the results showing that people in general, when reminded of death, tend to become less tolerant of those with different lifestyles or political viewpoints or something like that.

 

I'm probably not doing it much justice but I found it rather fascinating.

 

Anyway, regarding the OP, I just wanted to say that you are not alone.  I've just recently come out of a years-long grapple with my own what's-the-point-of-it-all demon.  The only reason I didn't kill myself the many, many times I wanted to was to save my family the heartbreak.  When I found out that I was pregnant, I thought I was going to have to eventually apologize to my child for bringing it into such a dog-eat-dog world as this.  But now, five months preggers and long past the horrible, HORRIBLE first trimester period, I'm realizing that my life's duty will be to prepare this baby for real life so much better than my parents did.  I'm going to make sure that he doesn't spend the first 18-20 years of his life hearing the same b.s. that I grew up on, just to get out into the real world and have life kick him in the gut over and over.  I want him to know from the start that things will be difficult and take massive amounts of effort and that college is only a good idea if it's a degree that will get you a job OTHER than "Starbuck's barrista".  And he'll also have the support and guidance of two very logical, down-to-earth  parents who both had to figure real life out on their own because their parents were too busy getting divorced and re-married and divorced again to get too involved in, you know, raising their children.

 

Yes, I'm still a bit bitter about certain things and I have regrets about all the time I've wasted on all the wrong things, but what's important is that I'm slowly realizing that just because it's been rough so far, MY LIFE IS NOT OVER JUST YET and it's up to me and nobody else to make the best of what's left, which is hopefully at least as long as I've lived so far.  

 

Hope that helps, and also you should go to the pound or pet store and play with puppies for a while.  It's been proven that when a person pets their dog, they get the same happy hormone rush as a mother breastfeeding her baby.  Smiling  

 

 


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peppermint42 wrote:Hope that

peppermint42 wrote:

Hope that helps, and also you should go to the pound or pet store and play with puppies for a while.  It's been proven that when a person pets their dog, they get the same happy hormone rush as a mother breastfeeding her baby.  Smiling  

I wouldn't let a dog chew on my nipples, I don't care what feel-good hormone rush I get.  For that matter I wouldn't let a baby chew on my nipples either... hmmm I wonder who proved this, and how many nipples were sacrificed in the name of science. Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:peppermint42

Ktulu wrote:

peppermint42 wrote:

Hope that helps, and also you should go to the pound or pet store and play with puppies for a while.  It's been proven that when a person pets their dog, they get the same happy hormone rush as a mother breastfeeding her baby.  Smiling  

I wouldn't let a dog chew on my nipples, I don't care what feel-good hormone rush I get.  For that matter I wouldn't let a baby chew on my nipples either... hmmm I wonder who proved this, and how many nipples were sacrificed in the name of science. Smiling

 

...Erm, perhaps that was not a good choice of comparison.  O.o  Uhh...  *wiki's 'oxytocin'*...  It's also called the "love hormone"...  so...  petting a puppy makes you feel like you're in love.  There.  No nipples involved at all.  >.>


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Hi peppermint42, welcome to

Hi peppermint42, welcome to the forum. 

If you post more, I highly recommend signing up for an account. As it is, a mod or admin must approve your comments before other people can see them.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Hi

butterbattle wrote:

Hi peppermint42, welcome to the forum. 

If you post more, I highly recommend signing up for an account. As it is, a mod or admin must approve your comments before other people can see them.  

That is to say, mod approval is required to have your 'guest' comments posted, unless you register.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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This is peppermint42

 I'm sorry about that, I've just been too lazy to look up my username from about a year ago when I was last on this site (life got complicated on me again, but now I'm stuck at home all day with nobody to talk to).  :P  I actually had to go and find a thread I remembered posting in to figure out what it was...  

 

Btw is there any way to have my username changed to peppermint42?  


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Hey OPIE

I see youre concerned then about death. lol. Here's the dealio. The reason why is because atheists are dead spiritual. So since they are dead spiritual, then why would they be consciencely worried? Now some are via the Imago Dei but it's rare.

Perhaps you're an elect Christians and you don't know it yet. or perhaps you're just worrying about death, but the ground and worms you shouldn't worry about as much as while you're in hell when the demons scrape your balls off.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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A child's perspective

When my uncle died in january and then our 15 year old cat died about a month ago I had to explain death to my 4 year old daughter. This was somewhat of a difficult concept to convey without the easy lie of a heaven or an afterlife. She took the things we told her and added things that she has seen or heard in her life and came up with her own perspective. She says it is sad that Milo (our cat) can't sit on my lap anymore but he is still here. I remember him so he is always here now and she points at her heart. She also says he is helping the flowers grow since he is part of the earth now.

 

Looking at what she says when a person dies they may no longer be able to preceive the world however they are still a part of the world. The become part of the earth again breaking down into the composite elements and returning to the earth to become other things again.  (She likes The Lion King and is all about the circle of life right now) Also add in that you still live on in peoples hearts and memories then your existance while finite does not end just because you are gone. There are also many theories out there regarding continued existace after death.

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

You see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.


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After multiple occasions

After multiple occasions were I came within a hair of death, and a lot of introspection, I ceased worrying about it. There is only one difference between not being born and being dead. That difference is the mark you left on everyone you ever encountered directly or indirectly. Any time you taught someone something, every time you helped someone, even every time you screwed someone over had an impact on that person, which in turn had an impact on everyone they had an impact on. You will exist as long as humanity exists, because you made changes in people's lives, and those changes propagated throughout the species. The more impact you made, the more of you lives on after death.

This is not to say my adrenaline doesn't pump when I forsee danger, nor does it mean I ignore death (my survival instinct is as strong as it gets), but it does mean that death doesn't haunt me.

I believe my final breakthrough was....

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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...after watching Final

...after watching Final Destination, though I give some credit to the author R.A. Salvatore and his Dark Elf series. Anyway, there's a scene in the movie where the main character locks himself in a wooden shed and ties everything down to keep "Death" at bay. He isolates himself from the world, eating canned food with ovenmitts on, living in paranoia, and "Death" nearly gets him anyway. After the movie was over I considered that for a good week before coming to the conclusion that such isolation is not only pointless (even if you avoid it for years, eventually oxygen or age will take you down), it's also effectively suicide. Everything you are, you are denying to everyone else, meaning you don't get to affect people by your existence, relegating your existence to irrelevancy. Worse, living in paranoia such as that deprives you of any joy in existence. So what then is the point of living?

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Worrying about death is a

Worrying about death is a common way of rationalizing one's deeper, unidentified fears. I'm using the term 'rationalizing' in its psychiatric sense, i.e. when someone's trying to attribute his/her worries, anxieties, agony, etc. to some real dreadful possibility/-ies in order to make them more manageable, since fear of the unknown seems to be far more scary. Other fears that might be socially or otherwise unacceptable may be hiding behind the fear of death, which, by definition, is to various degrees shared by all, and is therefore not a shame to have.

Do you find that your death fear is intensified when others speak ill of you, underestimate you, or pay no attention to you? When you are (or think you are) rejected? When you don't feel you can summon enough courage to ask for something you want? Then chances are that at least part of your problem has nothing to do with how you apparently feel about death. More likely you're afraid you might find out you're not as brave or as successful etc. as you think it would be socially acceptable for you to be.

I've had a strong fear of death myself, I still have it to a lesser degree, but I couldn't help noticing that each time I was positively received by others that fear was lessened or even disappeared. I'd suggest seeking professional help if you haven't already done so. I have and, though I can't say all my problems have been solved, I've certainly been much better off since I did.

Spare the rod and spoil the god!


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inspectormustard

inspectormustard wrote:

 Speak for yourself; I plan to live forever. 

I also plan to live forever.   And you know what?   So far, so good!!!!

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci