My Personal Story and Witness Account

keithd_22448
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My Personal Story and Witness Account

Hi all,

 

I was just browsing around the web and stumbled across this site. Personally, I wouldn't be able to make my points against Atheism on this board with the Theistic knowledge I have. However, what I can tell you is my own personal story and I don't see how anyone could argue that since I am in fact me! And I will gladly be put under oath stating that I am me 

 

As a Christian, I am at a minimum called to be a witness for Christ. My only hope is for anyone who doesn't believe that my words will give them something to think about. So here it goes.

 

I grew up the youngest of nine children in South Texas (5 sisters, 3 brothers). We were by no means rich but we never missed a meal. My mother is Catholic and I was raised such (more on this later). I attended Catholic school and Church growing up. My father was a decent man but no churchgoer. He loved cigarettes and the beer can a little more that he should have. He died when I was 7 years old of basically bad health due to the drinking and smoking all of his life.

Not having a father from that point impacted me a heck of a lot more than I could have imagined at the time. Aside from not having the appropriate discipline, there are certain things a young boy needs that only a father can provide (children need fathers and not just the weekend visitor type either). I really missed out on the fun and times that my older brothers had.

Going on through life, I always just felt a little bit strange. I can't really explain it but the best analogy I've heard is that I was a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. I was horribly skinny and constantly teased about it. I had friends and such but I just usually retreated my my bedroom when I got home from school. I never really liked school and all of the "normal" kids that went there. My mom remarried a few years later but he ended up dying too.

In High School, I was miserable.  I didn't want to drop out but I didn't want to stay either. So I doubled my efforts in class and voluntarily took summer school just so I could graduate early. During this time, I had fallen in love with my fathers first love...good old beer can! That stuff did for me what nothing or no one else could have. I really took away the square peg feelings I constantly had. By this point, I had really rejected God. I couldn't imagine feeling the ways I did and God letting it all happen.

Upon graduation I joined the Navy. I really wanted to get out of my environment and start fresh. I thought the Navy would do that for me. And it did. Unfortunately I took me along. It wasn't until later in life that I realized that I was a large source of my problems. At this point though I worked hard and partied even harder. The Navy was a good place to do that. Their checks didn't bounce and I advanced quicker than my peers. The problem was that the booze wasn't hiding those feelings of inadequacy anymore. Sooner or later I had to face myself and quit running.

By this point I was in terrible shape in the physical, emotional, and spiritual sense. I was just a shell of a person and had nothing inside of me that was worth living for. For these last couple of years I just wanted to die and would have welcomed it but I wasn't brave enough to just blow my brains out.

One morning when I woke up, I started to walk across the room and things just started going black in my vision until finally everything was black. I fell to this floor but I don't know what really happened or how long I was out. I came to in severe shakes, cold sweat, and scared to death. I was on my back staring at the celing and I just knew that this wasn't the way things were supposed to be. I said thie simplest prayer that any man can say and that's "God, help me". He answers those prayers immediately and we completely abandon ourselves to him.

I'd like to tell you that things got better that second and I lived happily ever after but that only happens in story books. Over the course of the next few weeks, God put people in my life that were there to help me. I know it had to be Him because there were just too many odd coincidences going on for them to all be coincidences. I found myself going through an alcohol out patient treatment, and there were good Christian men and women put in my life to help me along. People who didn't judge me, only wanted to help me. I accepted Jesus as my savior shortly thereafter. The horrible, sinful life that I lived was washed away. It's good how this works..that no matter what our past was like, our future is still spotless.

I have a life today that I could not have designed or asked for (and to be honest, I don't think I would have wanted it earlier in life). I got away from the Catholic church into a true Christian church that is focused on the Bible. My life is full and yet it still seems to get better. I got out of the Navy after nearly 9 years, have a great job, a wife and family, and all the feelings I had before our but distant memories. Every day is not a bed of roses in the least but my most difficult days today are at least bearable.

 

That's it in a nutshell. You can laugh at me if you want to but no man can argue the true genuine awakening within me. And the good news is that it's available to all those who want it..free of charge.

 

 

 


redneF
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keithd_22448 wrote: ...the

keithd_22448 wrote:
...the good news is that it's available to all those who want it..free of charge.

That's nice...

I ain't risking not living the sinful life I have, thanks, but, I'll take my chances in the other league.

They've probably got a way better band.

Oh, and strippers!...

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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keithd_22448 wrote:And the

keithd_22448 wrote:
And the good news is that it's available to all those who want it..free of charge.

Even better news : You can have all that and more, without the religion. Smiling


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redneF wrote:I ain't risking

redneF wrote:

I ain't risking not living the sinful life I have, thanks, but, I'll take my chances in the other league.

They've probably got a way better band.

Oh, and strippers!...

Testify, brother ! Testify !

 

@keith : Welcome to the forum, btw. Hope this isn't a drive-by and you'll stick around.


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I certainly wouldn't deny

I certainly wouldn't deny that you are honestly reporting what you experienced, at least what it all felt like.

But there is no reason for either you or I to take that as proof that you accurately interpreted the ultimate origin and 'meaning' of that experience.

My first reaction to accounts like this is that if there really was a loving, all-knowing, omnipotent being watching over us, the bad things that lead you to such a low point should not have happened in the first place.

I can personally testify that I have had low points in my life, and have emerged with a solid feeling of realistic confidence in myself, while recognizing my failings, but able to face everyday life and hope for the future in a self-aware and un-stressed way, enjoying what high-points come my way.

All on the basis of a life-long and total rejection of any religious or other 'woo' style philosophy.

So if you feel your faith is the only way to resolve your own personal issues, I won't argue with you, but just would like you to be able to acknowledge that it is not the only way to cope with the problems we encounter in life.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Most of the time when

Most of the time when newbies come here I give them a really harsh welcome. I will refrain from that considering that you made the admission that your qualifications were lacking and all you had was a "personal experience".

All I can say to you now is that "personal experience" is NOT a new argument. We have run into much higher caliber believers than you. That is not to say they have any more credible evidence than you do, but just that they at least have attempted more homework than your freshman attempt you have made here now.

I am going to say what I say to every believer, new to the trenches, or worn vets. There is a BATTLE going on over the truth of reality. As long as YOU don't take it personally, we won't take it personally.

You believe in a god, for whatever reason. Our argument is so what? There were god/s before, and certainly other gods claimed now that YOU don't personally believe in.

SO WHAT.

My argument is simple. Until any god believer of any religion can replicate and falsify a thought existing outside a material process, none of you have a damned thing.

What the Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Christian, pantheist, ect ect ect, have not been able to do is create a universal model with universal data that can be independently tested beyond their own pet whims.

So, you ARE welcome to stay here, but "that was a really really really intense feeling" doesn't wash here.

I assert your "experience" was merely something intense that felt real that you ended up inserting the god of the gaps into.

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Heavy drinking and no belief

Heavy drinking and no belief in god = life sucked. No big surprises there, heavy drinking has a way of messing up your life.

 

Less/no drinking and believing in god = better life. 

 

Perhaps you should try less/no drinking and believing in reality. You might find that life can indeed get even better. 

 

I think it is odd that you attribute the improvements in your life to your religion when there is a ton of evidence that heavy drinking can fuck up your life regardless of your religious beliefs while you are drinking. 

 

I have to hand it to you though, you are a survivor- surviving being raised catholic, the navy, alcoholism, and being married, then saying to the god you believe set it all up "thank you sir, may I have another", you are one tough guy. I would have told him to shove it.

 

Anyway, welcome to the forum. Stick around for awhile and don't mind the teeth, we don't bite.......too hard.  


Atheistextremist
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Can't help thinking Keith

 

 

is scoring testify points with his loving heavenly father rather than wanting to get to know any of us. Thanks for the story, Keith. Pretty obviously as others have pointed out, being genetically predisposed to alcohol high and letting it get away on you does not prove that life without god is worthless and that uttering the world's smallest prayer will help. Sadly, for them, I think in this case, some decent people who's efforts are not being recognised here, acted as the hand of god. 

In any case, all the best to you, mate. Look after your people and enjoy your life.  

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Evidently you have never seen this board before. -- Okay!

  " I know I wont be able make my points against Atheism on this board with the Theistic knowledge I have. (paraphrase) "

  OMG  This says to me you have not read any of the threads on this forum. I d seriously start with the introductions area. Others have introduced themselves as you have. Please read some of that before you think to continue.

 


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Well

Well my story is right the opposite of yours. I grew up in a strict Catholic household. Got up every morning and fell on my knees and prayed. Pedaled my bike to church and lit candles every morning before shool, served as an altarboy, and our family had Bible readings every night. I remember loving the particular intense old testament stories, never questioned how unjust god was at that time.

Well I experienced alot of tragedy and grief later in life. Death of closed loved ones and many other things. I thought god was punishing me.
My life was sheer hell, until I realized that nothing was watching me, nothing was guiding me, nothing was going to help me and the future was uncertain.

I grew long hair, got a few tattoos, couple of earrings, and broke out of character for the first time time in my life.

I was renting a room from one of the toughest bikers that you have ever seen. I ended up learning engines and restoring on old Harley Davidson.

Today, I can not imagine ever believing in god again.

I feel sympathy for all that you have endured and gone through. But you see, there are those of us on the other side of the fence, the Atheist side that were lead to Atheism by our lives and experiences as well.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Hi Keith, welcome!If at any

Hi Keith, welcome!

If at any time you feel like we're coming on a little too strong, you can always post messages in the Kill 'Em With Kindness forum, where we have special rules to keep the conversation more polite (but we will still ask lots of tough questions, though, just with a softer voice Smiling ).

Sorry to hear about your tough life experiences. I don't deny the experiences you had, only your interpretation of them. I'm glad you found some help from the people around you, and perhaps with some comforting ideas from Christianity.

But how do you really know that it was Christianity specifically that helped you? What I mean is that, isn't it possible that if you had been raised Jewish and had Jewish friends and family, that you probably would have found the same kinds of help and comfort from those around you? Are you absolutely certain that only Christianity could have helped you out? Isn't it possible that some other religion could have done the same thing?

And, if you really are absolutely certain that only Christianity could have helped you, then doesn't it seem strange to you that people from other religions, and indeed people who have no religion at all, are able to deal with their life problems in their own ways, without Christianity? How is that possible?

It seems to me that if only Christianity can help people with serious life problems like you were experiencing, then it would make sense that only Christians could recover from equally serious (and sometimes far far more serious) life problems. I know it might be hard to imagine this, since you are probably surrounded by mostly Christians, and so you probably don't hear a lot of stories from non-Christians about how they overcame their life problems (either with faith, or without it). But if you just imagine, for a second, someone living in China (probably Buddhist) or India (probably Hindu) or Sweden (probably atheist) experiencing similar problems and overcoming them. It seems reasonable that Christianity can't be the only way to handle life's many challenges, right?

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Thanks for all the responses

Thanks for all the responses everyone. And no, I neither need nor expect any kid glove treatment.  I just wanted to state where I'm coming from. Here's a few amplifying points that I hope address some of the questions/responses I've received. If you have any additional points/questions, then by all means ask away.

 

 

- I'm hardly a freshman at this. I've been walking in this life for nearly 14 years now. When I stated that I couln't make my points with the knowledge I have, I was referring to your worldview being so clouded and distorted that you simply can't see the forest through the trees. In other words, you reject whatever I have to say before it ever leaves my lips.

- I certainly do care about the people on this board. I consider what I had more than an "experience". I've been shown a way of life that has brought me to a level of happiness that I have never found anywhere else. I've tried life without God and with God. I can tell you that I've found life with God to be better. I simply want to tell people what I've found. If it helps you then great. If you hear it and continue on in your life as before, then that's your choice.

- Why would a loving God prohibit me from going through the consequences of my actions? He loves me enough to give me free will. I can do anything I want to in this world as long as I'm willing to pay the price. But He loved me enough to give me the help I needed to get out of that life and pick up the pieces. Literally, everything that was taken from me was restored and even more.

- As far as everyday life goes, I do not  believe that Christianity or any other belief has a monopoly on helping through the struggles. You can pray for a healing all day long but it's of little use if you don't get to the doctor. This list can go on..just insert any life problem.

- The demarcation point of Christianity resides in eternity. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me". I was so uninterested in putting the cap on the bottle and keeping my pants zipped up that I ran from this for a long time. There is judgement coming and there is a price to be paid. Jesus paid my sin debt in full with His shed blood on the Cross. If that statement is foolishness to you then you are in eternal danger.

- There is a rapture of the Church coming. Very soon I believe. And after this time, you will see some of the most baffling and amazing deceptions in history. Some Christians have a cute saying of "When rapture comes, you can have my house/car/money". I'm saying to you that when rapture comes, I hope you're with me!

I sincerely hope this irritates the living daylights out of you because it's useless if it didn't.

Many of you are probably thinking "this guy sure is a coward to just type away in anonymity like this". But I do this one on one with Atheists as well.

ok, fire away the insults all you want. It's a blessing to me when you do!


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The problem with

The problem with testimonials like this is that, while they may be emotionally powerful, they're entirely fallacious.  There's a laundry-list of objections to this sort of "my personal story." 

How do we know you actually experienced the events you describe?  I don't mean to be rude, but we must consider whether it is more probable that a man is lying (or simply mistaken), or that nature has been superseded by an entity outside of space, time and limitations (thus, completely alien to everything we know). 

How do we know, how do you know for that matter, that your experiences reflect objective reality?  Assuming you're telling the truth about your experiences and are not mistaken, what reason do you have for extrapolating a description of fundamental reality from them?  In other words, what was the process of inductive reasoning that lead you from your experiences to God, and how can you be sure your reasoning was valid? 

How can you be sure that your experiences reveal the existence and desires of a specific deity? Bear in mind that to answer that, you're going to need to come up with a definition of God, and if you want us to take it seriously it's going to have to be self-consistent and comprehensible.  You need to resolve the questions of free will vs omniscience vs omnipotence; you need to address whether God exists within the framework of reality or "outside" it (and, if outside, what that even means, divorced from all human experience); whether God can be understood by humans (careful not to make knowledge claims about the unknowable!); etc.

Religion is a virus.
Fight the infection.


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No, I for one do not find

No, I for one do not find your response irritating, just a little sad, and not all that surprising. We have heard variations of this kind of story just so many times before.

The idea of someone 'paying for' someone else's 'sin' by blood is such a primitive and ultimately senseless and immoral concept. It is indeed foolishness, and it is you are lost in ignorance and superstition, but not necessarily 'eternally', because...

Many of 'us' here came from positions of similar strong belief, and so understand much of, in many cases ALL about, where you are coming from - you are not telling those people anything new at all. And we know it is possible for the 'scales to fall from your eyes', as they can testify.

But the eternal appeal of that story to a significant fraction of people, demonstrates that at least part of the Christian 'message' is true, that we are all 'flawed' to some extent, that such stuff still works on us.

You have given up one addiction, to a physical drug, to embrace a purely mental 'addiction' that makes you 'feel good' in a different, but still ultimately destructive way. Destructive to your ability to perceive and pursue 'real' Truth, to the extent that finite and mortal minds can.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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BobSpence1 wrote: You have

BobSpence1 wrote:

 

You have given up one addiction, to a physical drug, to embrace a purely mental 'addiction' that makes you 'feel good' in a different, but still ultimately destructive way. Destructive to your ability to perceive and pursue 'real' Truth, to the extent that finite and mortal minds can.

 

Hi Bob,

To the extent of my past life, there was more than just the addiction to alcohol. I'm not going into a confessional here but the lifestyle I was in was much worse. No matter how hard I tried to get out of it on my own, I simply couldn't. No amount of my willpower could. It's not that I'm weak willed either. Do you know how much will it takes to endure for year after year the pain I was in? I'd argue that I'm stronger willed than most. So I'm not sure how I see I'm still living in a destrcutive way. In my ability to perceive and pursue 'real' truth? Good sir, I believe that we were created by a loving God who is there for those who seek and want Him. You think we all came from a speck of dirt that exploded. And my thoughts are destructive?

A common saying I see by Atheists is "Know God, no Peace/No God, Know Peace" but that account doesn't hold up to history. Were Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and countless others peace loving Atheists? There are tens of millions of their dead countrymen who would have gladly accepted what I have over what they given by these dregs.


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You do realize most of us

You do realize most of us think god is actually you and your own desire. That would mean YOU drug yourself out of a pit. Is that so bad?

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Keith wrote:Were Stalin,

Keith wrote:

Were Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and countless others peace loving Atheists?"

Did they kill in the name of their atheism the way others have killed in the name of God?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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keithd_22448

keithd_22448 wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

 

You have given up one addiction, to a physical drug, to embrace a purely mental 'addiction' that makes you 'feel good' in a different, but still ultimately destructive way. Destructive to your ability to perceive and pursue 'real' Truth, to the extent that finite and mortal minds can.

 

Hi Bob,

To the extent of my past life, there was more than just the addiction to alcohol. I'm not going into a confessional here but the lifestyle I was in was much worse. No matter how hard I tried to get out of it on my own, I simply couldn't. No amount of my willpower could. It's not that I'm weak willed either. Do you know how much will it takes to endure for year after year the pain I was in? I'd argue that I'm stronger willed than most. So I'm not sure how I see I'm still living in a destrcutive way. In my ability to perceive and pursue 'real' truth? Good sir, I believe that we were created by a loving God who is there for those who seek and want Him. You think we all came from a speck of dirt that exploded. And my thoughts are destructive?

A common saying I see by Atheists is "Know God, no Peace/No God, Know Peace" but that account doesn't hold up to history. Were Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and countless others peace loving Atheists? There are tens of millions of their dead countrymen who would have gladly accepted what I have over what they given by these dregs.

It seems to be similarly difficult for most believers to drag themselves out of the delusional state of religious faith, than for alcoholics to quit drinking, so the analogy still applies.

I honestly had never heard or seen that 'common saying', but since many nasty people have killed many people while claiming to be believers, often justifying their actions as punishing unbelievers, as commanded by God, so that idea goes both ways. Hitler also hated atheists. Muslim terrorists are typically passionate believers, not atheists.

Was the Spanish Inquisition composed of Atheists??

Many strong believers actually have far more hate for those following the 'wrong' version of the doctrine rather than non-believers.

Your story, at best, only proves the power of strong belief, which does nor require that any aspect of the belief itself matches reality.

So, to repeat, your basic story is unremarkable.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


keithd_22448
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BobSpence1

BobSpence1 wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

 

You have given up one addiction, to a physical drug, to embrace a purely mental 'addiction' that makes you 'feel good' in a different, but still ultimately destructive way. Destructive to your ability to perceive and pursue 'real' Truth, to the extent that finite and mortal minds can.

 

Hi Bob,

To the extent of my past life, there was more than just the addiction to alcohol. I'm not going into a confessional here but the lifestyle I was in was much worse. No matter how hard I tried to get out of it on my own, I simply couldn't. No amount of my willpower could. It's not that I'm weak willed either. Do you know how much will it takes to endure for year after year the pain I was in? I'd argue that I'm stronger willed than most. So I'm not sure how I see I'm still living in a destrcutive way. In my ability to perceive and pursue 'real' truth? Good sir, I believe that we were created by a loving God who is there for those who seek and want Him. You think we all came from a speck of dirt that exploded. And my thoughts are destructive?

A common saying I see by Atheists is "Know God, no Peace/No God, Know Peace" but that account doesn't hold up to history. Were Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and countless others peace loving Atheists? There are tens of millions of their dead countrymen who would have gladly accepted what I have over what they given by these dregs.

It seems to be similarly difficult for most believers to drag themselves out of the delusional state of religious faith, than for alcoholics to quit drinking, so the analogy still applies.

I honestly had never heard or seen that 'common saying', but since many nasty people have killed many people while claiming to be believers, often justifying their actions as punishing unbelievers, as commanded by God, so that idea goes both ways. Hitler also hated atheists. Muslim terrorists are typically passionate believers, not atheists.

Was the Spanish Inquisition composed of Atheists??

Many strong believers actually have far more hate for those following the 'wrong' version of the doctrine rather than non-believers.

Hitler hated everybody. He was a New Ager and mystic. Muslim Terrorists don't worship Jesus. The Spanish Inquisition was composed of Catholics, not Christians (a discussion I will gladly have with you in a phone call or in person as it takes more detail to cover than I care to type). I certainly don't hate those who are in a "wrong doctrine" but will correct them quickly if/when I see it. Since they have (or claim to have) the Word, they are held to a higher standard than someone such as yourself who claims no Word even exists. And I certainly don't hate you or any Atheist. There is nothing more unappealing to an Atheist than to see someone claiming the Love of God just to turn around and see them acting in a hateful or uncaring way. Not to say that sin shouldn't be exposed but the Bible teaches that the Word should be spread with gentleness and respect (which hopefully I am doing). When you read about how Jesus dealt with the average, everyday Jew, it was with love and caring. But when he dealt with the Jewish leaders (the Pharisees and Scribes), His tone was totally different because they, being in a position of authority, abused it and put their own traditions above the law of God.


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Why do theistic arguments

Why do theistic arguments boil down to either anger or a logical fallacy?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Hey Keith,I find it

Hey Keith,

I find it interesting that you would mention the rapture. Did you know that the rapture is not taught in the bible? It was invented by John Nelson Darby. Let me ask you this...how many times does Jesus come? His birth (first coming). The rapture (second coming). Rides on the white horse (third coming??). A third coming is never taught. Do you also realize that if you are raptured you are coming back to this very same earth to reign with Christ for 1000 years? This world will be mixed with heavenly and fleshly people. My point is that you are being taught wrong doctrine by those you trust. Those type of mixed doctrines began to open my eyes.

You my friend are brain washed. You do not see if because you are “in” it. Everyone goes through bad periods of “finding who they are”. It’s part of life. Why stop your journey with some magical daddy? You are going to stunt your growth.

Let me ask you this...do you struggle with lust? If you have god living inside of you “the holy spirit” then why do you struggle with something like lust daily? When i was christian i saw what was really going on behind all the fake smiles at church. It is not what it appears.

 


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Hi everlastingxxx, You are

Hi everlastingxxx,

 

You are correct that the word Rapture is not used. It stems from the Latin word "Rapturo" which, in turn is a translation of the Greek term "Caught up" (or catching away). It is never referred to as the second coming of Jesus, only as an "Appearing" (Titus). And you are correct, this world will be inhabited by "heavenly" (or as the King James states more eloquently "Translated" ) and fleshly people. It's not wrong or mixed doctrine at all.

 

Do I struggle with lust? Absolutely. Do I struggle with other tempations? Absolutely. I live in the same world you do and go through the same trials as you. I'm not immune to tempations. Nowhere does Scripture say otherwise. But by His power I don't give into them as often as I used to. Even with the indwelling, I still have free will and can exercise it when I choose. That is stated clearly throughout. Not sure where you were taught your doctrine but it was horribly wrong. Find a good Bible believing Church and you'll see a huge difference.


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keithd_22448 wrote:Hitler

keithd_22448 wrote:

Hitler hated everybody. He was a New Ager and mystic. Muslim Terrorists don't worship Jesus. The Spanish Inquisition was composed of Catholics, not Christians (a discussion I will gladly have with you in a phone call or in person as it takes more detail to cover than I care to type). I certainly don't hate those who are in a "wrong doctrine" but will correct them quickly if/when I see it. Since they have (or claim to have) the Word, they are held to a higher standard than someone such as yourself who claims no Word even exists. And I certainly don't hate you or any Atheist. There is nothing more unappealing to an Atheist than to see someone claiming the Love of God just to turn around and see them acting in a hateful or uncaring way. Not to say that sin shouldn't be exposed but the Bible teaches that the Word should be spread with gentleness and respect (which hopefully I am doing). When you read about how Jesus dealt with the average, everyday Jew, it was with love and caring. But when he dealt with the Jewish leaders (the Pharisees and Scribes), His tone was totally different because they, being in a position of authority, abused it and put their own traditions above the law of God.

Hello Keith, welcome to the forum.

I don't doubt for a moment that what you perceive as religion has helped you through your though times.  I have had similar tough times and have gotten through them on my own, but some people are more independent than others.  The fact that you believe an irrationality very strongly doesn't make it any more appealing.  The logical arguments against your position are many, and your tangible support is non existent.  

Relating to your above paragraph, I'm personally not annoyed that you believe in the 'Word', I have the same feelings as you do regarding someone wasting their life away for Scientology, or some other New Age cult.  I'm saddened and I feel the need to point out the irrationality, in the hopes that said person develops some critical thinking.

Some criticism to your previous comments.  The notion of yourself being strong willed is laughable in light of the story you have narrated, yourself wallowing in self destructive pity is by no means a show of character strength.  Don't get me wrong I don't think I'm any better than you, I have many failings.  I just don't want you to claim strength in weakness, because ultimately, you are doing just that trusting an irrationality. 

Also the claim that the inquisition was carried out by Catholics and not Christians is such a narrow minded excuse of the bible derived atrocities as to be amusing.  What about the Crusades?  All Christians agreed to those.  The minor doctrinal differences between biblical interpretation (and I include Judaism and Islam), are inconsequential to the underlining irrationality that is religion.  The fact that more atrocities were carried out by one faction versus another is just a matter of circumstances and politics. 

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Fallacy

The Stalin/Pol Pot/Mao argument is just another fallacy of equivocation.

George Orwell once said that all dictatorships were theocratic in nature. For example, people asking Stalin to bless the crops, the sheer frenzied worship the followers of Mao seemed to emulate, and Pol Pot was actually a type of Buddhist.

They were merely appealing for people's primitive desire for some sort of worship, one that we are slowly evolving past and was born out of early man's fear of death.

As far as Hitler, read Mein Kampf, he dedicates it to god. In a speech in Berlin once, Hitler mentioned admiring Jesus because he was the first to rebel against the Jews.

So therefore, all dictatorships have some theocratic commonalities.

The fallacy of equivocation comes in here :

If a serial killer were to be found in your church Keith, does that mean that it is safe to assume that EVERYONE in your church is a serial killer ?

Remember, Atheism is not a religion. You can be an Atheist and a Democrat, an Atheist and a Republican, an Atheist and a Communist, an Atheist and a Fascist. Atheism simply means lack of belief in god, nothing more and nothing less.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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keithd_22448 wrote:Hi

keithd_22448 wrote:

Hi everlastingxxx,

You are correct that the word Rapture is not used. It stems from the Latin word "Rapturo" which, in turn is a translation of the Greek term "Caught up" (or catching away). It is never referred to as the second coming of Jesus, only as an "Appearing" (Titus). And you are correct, this world will be inhabited by "heavenly" (or as the King James states more eloquently "Translated" ) and fleshly people. It's not wrong or mixed doctrine at all.

I never said the word Rapture wasn’t used. I said the Rapture doctrine was not taught. You should do more research. Although the bible is full of mixed up doctrines, so good luck.

Quote:
Do I struggle with lust? Absolutely. Do I struggle with other tempations? Absolutely. I live in the same world you do and go through the same trials as you. I'm not immune to tempations. Nowhere does Scripture say otherwise. But by His power I don't give into them as often as I used to. Even with the indwelling, I still have free will and can exercise it when I choose. That is stated clearly throughout. Not sure where you were taught your doctrine but it was horribly wrong. Find a good Bible believing Church and you'll see a huge difference.

Of course you do. You are no different then anyone else. You use your “ticket to heaven” as a reason to sin. When you are jerking your slong do you realize you are doing it with the Holy Ghost sitting there watching you? lol. When you are lusting after some chicks nicely shaped ass or titties, remember Jesus said “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

Paul the apostle healed people as he passed by, what are you coming here to prove? That you couldn’t handle your booze. Can’t handle your lust. But it’s not “as bad” as before. Whoopty fucking doo. My life is much better without god. I would never go back to that powerless faith.

 

 

 


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Hi Ktulu, You made my point

Hi Ktulu,

 

You made my point for me about the Crusades. I had forgotten all about them. The Crusades were sanctioned by the Catholic Pope. There were no Protestant type denominations involved at all in them. This is due to the fact that the Protestant Reformation was still over a century away from the last of the crusades. The idea behind the reformation was to get back to a Church based on Biblical principles and not those of whatever the pope wanted.


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keithd_22448 wrote:Hi

keithd_22448 wrote:

Hi everlastingxxx,

 

You are correct that the word Rapture is not used. It stems from the Latin word "Rapturo" which, in turn is a translation of the Greek term "Caught up" (or catching away). It is never referred to as the second coming of Jesus, only as an "Appearing" (Titus). And you are correct, this world will be inhabited by "heavenly" (or as the King James states more eloquently "Translated" ) and fleshly people. It's not wrong or mixed doctrine at all.

 

Do I struggle with lust? Absolutely. Do I struggle with other tempations? Absolutely. I live in the same world you do and go through the same trials as you. I'm not immune to tempations. Nowhere does Scripture say otherwise. But by His power I don't give into them as often as I used to. Even with the indwelling, I still have free will and can exercise it when I choose. That is stated clearly throughout. Not sure where you were taught your doctrine but it was horribly wrong. Find a good Bible believing Church and you'll see a huge difference.

 

You know, you only have to get old to give up all that stuff.  If you are a guy, eventually impotence takes its toll.  If a woman, menopause will slow you down some.  Diabetic - you have to cut way back on the booze and yummy desserts.  Then arthritis sets in and you slow down physically.  So if you manage to live long enough, you get more moderate in your choice of entertainment - no god/s/dess required.

I don't know dude.  Once upon a time I drank too much and screwed around too much.  And I gave it up when life changed and it wasn't fun any more.  I know other people who could not just change their drinking habits without assistance from religion.  Some never seem to manage to turn it off, religion or no.  If you were capable of change with the illusion of religion, you are capable of changing without.  Because it was you all along - you are the one who made the change. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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keithd_22448 wrote: I was

keithd_22448 wrote:
I was referring to your worldview being so clouded and distorted that you simply can't see the forest through the trees.

Who's worldview are you referring too? Because mine is certainly different from many here. What perceptions of the world do you assume I have that are so clouded and distorted? 

keithd_22448 wrote:
I've tried life without God and with God. I can tell you that I've found life with God to be better.

What do you mean a life with God? Where is your God? Where can he be found?

keithd_22448 wrote:
I simply want to tell people what I've found. If it helps you then great. If you hear it and continue on in your life as before, then that's your choice.

Thanks Captain Obvious...

keithd_22448 wrote:
Why would a loving God prohibit me from going through the consequences of my actions?

Which consequences?

keithd_22448 wrote:
He loves me enough to give me free will. I can do anything I want to in this world as long as I'm willing to pay the price.

Why do you call it free, and then say that you have to pay a price? That's a contradiction.

keithd_22448 wrote:
But He loved me enough to give me the help I needed to get out of that life and pick up the pieces. Literally, everything that was taken from me was restored and even more.

So he prohibited you from going through the consequences of your actions?

You said "Why would a loving God prohibit you?". So now you have to reconcile that additional contradiction.

keithd_22448 wrote:
- The demarcation point of Christianity resides in eternity.

What does that mean?

keithd_22448 wrote:
There is judgement coming and there is a price to be paid.

How do you know that?

keithd_22448 wrote:
Jesus paid my sin debt in full with His shed blood on the Cross. If that statement is foolishness to you then you are in eternal danger.

How do you know that?

keithd_22448 wrote:
- There is a rapture of the Church coming.

How do you know that?

keithd_22448 wrote:
 And after this time, you will see some of the most baffling and amazing deceptions in history.

How do you know that?

keithd_22448 wrote:
I sincerely hope this irritates the living daylights out of you because it's useless if it didn't.

It didn't. And you're right, it was useless...

keithd_22448 wrote:
ok, fire away the insults all you want. It's a blessing to me when you do!

How is it a blessing? That doesn't make any sense...

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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keithd_22448 wrote:Hi

keithd_22448 wrote:

Hi Ktulu,

 

You made my point for me about the Crusades. I had forgotten all about them. The Crusades were sanctioned by the Catholic Pope. There were no Protestant type denominations involved at all in them. This is due to the fact that the Protestant Reformation was still over a century away from the last of the crusades. The idea behind the reformation was to get back to a Church based on Biblical principles and not those of whatever the pope wanted.

Please stop using logical fallacies. Thank you.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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keithd_22448 wrote:Hi

keithd_22448 wrote:

Hi Ktulu,

 

You made my point for me about the Crusades. I had forgotten all about them. The Crusades were sanctioned by the Catholic Pope. There were no Protestant type denominations involved at all in them. This is due to the fact that the Protestant Reformation was still over a century away from the last of the crusades. The idea behind the reformation was to get back to a Church based on Biblical principles and not those of whatever the pope wanted.

You have obviously missed everything I typed, quite typical of theism to hang on to the inconsequential details and disregard the obvious 99% of the argument.  Try reading my post over.  

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Keith,Why would a loving God

Keith,

Why would a loving God create some people with a weakness for alcohol and others without that problem? I once believed it was intrinsically harmful and likely to lead to dire problems like you describe.

But after reading studies based on actual research and investigation, not dogma or doctrine, I tried it, found that small amounts of certain alcoholic drinks added a pleasant extra to various other drinks, and some were pleasant if sipped carefully.

I have found no tendency to go on any 'binges', and I do not like the taste of pure alcohol at all.

So I am able to enjoy it with no need to fight with myself to prevent over-indulgence. I have marginally more problem with some fancy ice-cream flavours...

I have never been tempted to find comfort in a 'sky-daddy'.

Why did God choose to afflict you and test you, by inflicting you with a weak will and/or an inability to resist the appeal of those things that obsessed you, and apparently still draw you?

Whereas I am allowed to carry on (mostly) quite comfortably, able to regulate my behavior pretty successfully, even while 'blaspheming' and insulting the very concept of God quite regularly, and so on? Why does he chose to make you suffer to drive you into his flock? Is it really that he likes you and wants you to go through this anguish and testing to qualify to be come to live with him in Heaven? Sounds like a bit of a sadist to me, perhaps more like a pedophile.

I could never consider a being as 'good' who behaved like that, who arbitrarily chose to torture and 'test' some of the playthings he allegedly 'created', while letting others who were able, like me, to resist those temptations without his help, to live more happily in freedom, pursuing truth, ie real knowledge and understanding of all aspects of reality. Am I destined to Hell to make up for being able to life a moral life, ie with consideration for others, and not get drawn into a cycle of self-destructive behaviour, without his help, IOW by having sufficient will to be able to control my behavior? Not 'perfectly', by any means, and there are certainly things I do which Christianity tends to disapprove of, despite them having no particular negative effects on me or anyone I interact with, and indeed may be positive for both my physical and mental health.

Do you not see the contradictions and inconsistency in this? Blind natural evolution makes such variation among people's nature and constitution quite understandable, it is far harder to fit such whims of fortune into the context of a 'loving' creator.

I have no desire to be tortured in some eternal afterlife by being required to share my existence with such a demanding and hypocritical being, who afflicted so many people with such tests, and with horrible diseases and disabilities. I would far rather have my life end in a sleep from which I never wake, and have come to terms with that.

I have far higher standards than the God of the Bible, and a far more solid base for my moral code, than the arbitrary rules that people imagined their particular imagined deity required them to follow. My morality is based on consideration for others, to not inflict unnecessary harm and suffering on them, unlike your God. Show people by example, and suggest positive rather than punitive therapy for those caught by the whims of chance and inheritance with life problems.

I am genuinely sad and sorry for the bad fortune of inheritance and circumstance that you seem to have been 'blessed' with.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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Very well put

Very well put Bobspence.  I think this discussion is probably almost over.  Our miracle case is probably not going to be able to give us much more than he already has.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I see religions, especially

I see religions, especially those like Christianity, faced with at least two problems (at least).

After decidng there must be  a God-creator being to 'explain' where everything came from, they assume this being also defines morality, what is 'ggod' and 'evil'.

Then the first problem is to explain why Bad things happen to Good people. Hence the idea of Original Sin.

The second is to explain why 'Bad people', and people who don't worship this God, or even insult (blaspheme') him, can often seem to have a generally happy life, even better than what many believers go thru. Hence we get Hell where it will catch up with them, and/or Heaven, where the 'Good' people will be compensated for the crap thrown at them by mortal life.

Now that we realize that the God-creator story doesn't really explain anything, and we now have ideas which better fit what we observe, we can throw the whole house of cards out.

But so much culture and practice has been built up around the God idea, they are unable to appreciate the fundamental flaws in it. So we get the endless nonsense of Theology, trying to bend logic and invent new 'arguments' to try and explain away all the inconsistencies and contradictions.

Darwin's 'Dangerous Idea', as Daniel Dennett described it, was the biggest 'crack in the wall', providing an alternative and more comprehensive natural mechanism for why life in general is as we see it.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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keithd_22448 wrote:Hitler

keithd_22448 wrote:

Hitler hated everybody. 

 

No he didn't

 

 

See, he even liked puppies.


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Keith

keithd_22448 wrote:

 

When I stated that I couln't make my points with the knowledge I have, I was referring to your worldview being so clouded and distorted that you simply can't see the forest through the trees. In other words, you reject whatever I have to say before it ever leaves my lips.

 

 

We are the ones with open minds and you are the one who is incapable of existing without a crutch, whose mind is clouded.

If you have anything to say that includes proof that is not contrived, circular, based on fallacies of complexity or naked assertions please serve it up. 

That's right, actual proof. Don't bother coming back with another grab bag of personal opinions and false humility. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

 

When I stated that I couln't make my points with the knowledge I have, I was referring to your worldview being so clouded and distorted that you simply can't see the forest through the trees. In other words, you reject whatever I have to say before it ever leaves my lips.

 

 

We are the ones with open minds and you are the one who is incapable of existing without a crutch, whose mind is clouded.

If you have anything to say that includes proof that is not contrived, circular, based on fallacies of complexity or naked assertions please serve it up. 

That's right, actual proof. Don't bother coming back with another grab bag of personal opinions and false humility. 

 

Where you and I are identical is that we both rely heavily on faith for our beliefs. Where you and I are different is I'm the only one who has the courage to admit it.

Can you honestly tell and show me how one speck of dirt can explode into this massive universe we live in and how nothing came alive and made every living thing on this earth?  No you can't show me proof of that either. I know you guys say "but given enough time it could happen" to which I ask "Is that a scientific or faith statement"? It's the same faith I proclaim when I say "With God, all things are possible".

Wheres your proof for life from a rock? No "theories" allowed. I want proof.


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Where you and I differ

keithd_22448 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

 

When I stated that I couln't make my points with the knowledge I have, I was referring to your worldview being so clouded and distorted that you simply can't see the forest through the trees. In other words, you reject whatever I have to say before it ever leaves my lips.

 

 

We are the ones with open minds and you are the one who is incapable of existing without a crutch, whose mind is clouded.

If you have anything to say that includes proof that is not contrived, circular, based on fallacies of complexity or naked assertions please serve it up. 

That's right, actual proof. Don't bother coming back with another grab bag of personal opinions and false humility. 

 

Where you and I are identical is that we both rely heavily on faith for our beliefs. Where you and I are different is I'm the only one who has the courage to admit it.

Can you honestly tell and show me how one speck of dirt can explode into this massive universe we live in and how nothing came alive and made every living thing on this earth?  No you can't show me proof of that either. I know you guys say "but given enough time it could happen" to which I ask "Is that a scientific or faith statement"? It's the same faith I proclaim when I say "With God, all things are possible".

Wheres your proof for life from a rock? No "theories" allowed. I want proof.

 

Is that I am prepared to admit there are things unknown, including the process of abiogenesis, which does not derive from the silicate of rocks as you suggest, nor from the existing biomass of dirt life has created, but from nitrogen and carbon blown out of exploding stars. While there is plenty to learn, we can say with certainty that life is formed of neutrons, protons and electrons arranged as molecules and compounds to form a biochemical process that can be observed. 

Now, you on the other hand, claim to know with certainty that a supernatural god exists outside this space time, who made everything by magic. So give me some absolute proof of absolute god or admit that you, too, have unanswered questions. 

Keith, most of us here do not have absolute faith in the hypotheses and theories that constitute scientific data. But we do believe the process of testable explanation is the best method by which we can ascertain what can most closely be proven true. 

It's what each of us is prepared to accept as evidence that sets us apart. If I am not certain then faith does not cut it. I await further data. What about you??

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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keithd_22448

keithd_22448 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

 

When I stated that I couln't make my points with the knowledge I have, I was referring to your worldview being so clouded and distorted that you simply can't see the forest through the trees. In other words, you reject whatever I have to say before it ever leaves my lips.

 

 

We are the ones with open minds and you are the one who is incapable of existing without a crutch, whose mind is clouded.

If you have anything to say that includes proof that is not contrived, circular, based on fallacies of complexity or naked assertions please serve it up. 

That's right, actual proof. Don't bother coming back with another grab bag of personal opinions and false humility. 

 

Where you and I are identical is that we both rely heavily on faith for our beliefs.

Oops. You've pegged the boob meter with that argument from ignorance.

Red shift and cosmic background radiation are not stories that some dust sucking camel jockies had 'faith' in 2000 yrs ago.

keithd_22448 wrote:
Where you and I are different is I'm the only one who has the courage to admit it.

No. I don't expect any theist to be honest enough to admit that they simply think a book of stories is true, but, it only gets amusing when they reveal their complete and utter ignorance of high school level science.

There's this really cool thing called the internet, and it's got websites that offer education for free.

keithd_22448 wrote:
 Can you honestly tell and show me how one speck of dirt can explode into this massive universe we live in and how nothing came alive and made every living thing on this earth? 

Ummm, the singularity wasn't a speck of dirt, Cletus.

keithd_22448 wrote:
 No you can't show me proof of that either.

There is no scientific hypothesis that suspects that the universe was a speck of dust, so your question is one of the most pathetic and embarrassing things you could try and attempt.

keithd_22448 wrote:
 I know you guys say "but given enough time it could happen" to which I ask "Is that a scientific or faith statement"?

It's a scientific one. And it has been for a long time, since there is nothing found yet in science that precludes that possibility.

keithd_22448 wrote:
It's the same faith I proclaim when I say "With God, all things are possible".

Except you're not a scientist, and your claim is based on lack of evidence to make your claim even remotely tenable.

keithd_22448 wrote:
Wheres your proof for life from a rock? No "theories" allowed. I want proof.

lol...Wha??

What hillbilly priest is feeding these imaginary claims to you?

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

 

When I stated that I couln't make my points with the knowledge I have, I was referring to your worldview being so clouded and distorted that you simply can't see the forest through the trees. In other words, you reject whatever I have to say before it ever leaves my lips.

 

 

We are the ones with open minds and you are the one who is incapable of existing without a crutch, whose mind is clouded.

If you have anything to say that includes proof that is not contrived, circular, based on fallacies of complexity or naked assertions please serve it up. 

That's right, actual proof. Don't bother coming back with another grab bag of personal opinions and false humility. 

 

Where you and I are identical is that we both rely heavily on faith for our beliefs. Where you and I are different is I'm the only one who has the courage to admit it.

Can you honestly tell and show me how one speck of dirt can explode into this massive universe we live in and how nothing came alive and made every living thing on this earth?  No you can't show me proof of that either. I know you guys say "but given enough time it could happen" to which I ask "Is that a scientific or faith statement"? It's the same faith I proclaim when I say "With God, all things are possible".

Wheres your proof for life from a rock? No "theories" allowed. I want proof.

 

Is that I am prepared to admit there are things unknown, including the process of abiogenesis, which does not derive from the silicate of rocks as you suggest, nor from the existing biomass of dirt life has created, but from nitrogen and carbon blown out of exploding stars. While there is plenty to learn, we can say with certainty that life is formed of neutrons, protons and electrons arranged as molecules and compounds to form a biochemical process that can be observed. 

Now, you on the other hand, claim to know with certainty that a supernatural god exists outside this space time, who made everything by magic. So give me some absolute proof of absolute god or admit that you, too, have unanswered questions. 

Keith, most of us here do not have absolute faith in the hypotheses and theories that constitute scientific data. But we do believe the process of testable explanation is the best method by which we can ascertain what can most closely be proven true. 

It's what each of us is prepared to accept as evidence that sets us apart. If I am not certain then faith does not cut it. I await further data. What about you??

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, fair enough. We are held to the standards we attest to. I approach this not from as scientific standpoint as you do. Your standard is scientific, therefore I expect a scientific explanation for the origin of time, space, matter and ultimately life. So a scientist was able to create an amino acid in a lab environment. Big deal. It wasn't life. There are over 200 amino acids and only 20 of those are found in life. The one created was not one found in life. It contained 50/50 "left hand/right hand" acids versus straight "right hand" that is only found in life. So he in essence created death, not life.   Furthermore, it was created in the absence of oxygen. It could not and cannot be created in an environment containing oxygen. Therefore, if no oxygen could be present in your view on life creation, how could it survive without an atmosphere (ozone) to protect it from the sun? Any life form would have been fried instantly.

 

My faith based "theory" explains it for me. I have a faith already. I don't need yours that contains nothing, originated in nothing, and goes nowhere.

 

 


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

Hitler hated everybody. 

 

No he didn't

 

 

See, he even liked puppies.

Now that's funny!


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keithd_22448 wrote:Ok, fair

keithd_22448 wrote:

Ok, fair enough. We are held to the standards we attest to. I approach this not from as scientific standpoint as you do. Your standard is scientific, therefore I expect a scientific explanation for the origin of time, space, matter and ultimately life. So a scientist was able to create an amino acid in a lab environment. Big deal. It wasn't life. There are over 200 amino acids and only 20 of those are found in life. The one created was not one found in life. It contained 50/50 "left hand/right hand" acids versus straight "right hand" that is only found in life. So he in essence created death, not life.   Furthermore, it was created in the absence of oxygen. It could not and cannot be created in an environment containing oxygen. Therefore, if no oxygen could be present in your view on life creation, how could it survive without an atmosphere (ozone) to protect it from the sun? Any life form would have been fried instantly.

 

My faith based "theory" explains it for me. I have a faith already. I don't need yours that contains nothing, originated in nothing, and goes nowhere.

Again you are missing the point, the point is not that we have not created life yet, therefore you're right and we're wrong.  We're not even debating the the origins of life because we're speaking completely different languages when it comes to logic and the extent of research that goes into evidence.  What we need to debate is the fundamental epistemology, what you constitute as knowledge.  You claim to have a different standard other than scientific.  But what is a scientific standard? What is science?  To me, science is just an attempt to explain natural phenomena.  Carry that back a step, how do you interpret natural phenomena? I, myself interpret it purely empirically.  In my mind's eye I have formed a self narrative that is based on symbols and concepts I have interpreted using my sense since birth.  I hope we agree so far, if not please enlighten me.

Ok, so now, we agree that science is nothing more than an explanation for stuff that is happening around you.  For you to state that you have a different standard of approaching space-time, matter and ultimately life, you must first explain to me how you arrive at such a standard without using your sense.  Do you get this information via telepathy? or are you endowed with more sense than us atheists perhaps.  If you only have your five sense to rely on, than everything that you use to create your standard is of nature, and hence scientific.  

Now we're using the same language.  You just pile naked assertions on top of logical fallacies and sprinkle a generous amount of wishful thinking to arrive at your conclusions.  As for us, we tend to be more intellectually honest and admit that while we don't know everything, we realize that someone that CLAIMS to know everything is full of poop.  

So unless you can tell us how you arrive at those standards which are superior to science, I will say that you have nothing but bad science to offer. 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Some forms of life can and

Some forms of life can and do survive in the absence of free oxygen.

The consistent 'right-hand' chirality of life molecules simply follows once it starts reproducing, but the raw source of amino acids from which life emerged does not have to be only of that form.

They have done more than create an amino acid. Amino acids are already present in many parts of the universe. What they did was apply a simply set of processes of heating, evaporation, cooling, etc to a mix of amino acids and produced simple RNA molecules, the minimum starting point of life, molecules capable of self-replication. The conditions they applied were entirely in the range of what could have occurred on the early Earth. The precursor molecules they used have been identified in interstellar dust clouds, so they can clearly form naturally.

These only need to form in shaded pools or in the ocean for UV radiation from the Sun to be not a factor.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/

No faith required.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Hi again Keith

keithd_22448 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

keithd_22448 wrote:

 

When I stated that I couln't make my points with the knowledge I have, I was referring to your worldview being so clouded and distorted that you simply can't see the forest through the trees. In other words, you reject whatever I have to say before it ever leaves my lips.

 

 

We are the ones with open minds and you are the one who is incapable of existing without a crutch, whose mind is clouded.

If you have anything to say that includes proof that is not contrived, circular, based on fallacies of complexity or naked assertions please serve it up. 

That's right, actual proof. Don't bother coming back with another grab bag of personal opinions and false humility. 

 

Where you and I are identical is that we both rely heavily on faith for our beliefs. Where you and I are different is I'm the only one who has the courage to admit it.

Can you honestly tell and show me how one speck of dirt can explode into this massive universe we live in and how nothing came alive and made every living thing on this earth?  No you can't show me proof of that either. I know you guys say "but given enough time it could happen" to which I ask "Is that a scientific or faith statement"? It's the same faith I proclaim when I say "With God, all things are possible".

Wheres your proof for life from a rock? No "theories" allowed. I want proof.

 

Is that I am prepared to admit there are things unknown, including the process of abiogenesis, which does not derive from the silicate of rocks as you suggest, nor from the existing biomass of dirt life has created, but from nitrogen and carbon blown out of exploding stars. While there is plenty to learn, we can say with certainty that life is formed of neutrons, protons and electrons arranged as molecules and compounds to form a biochemical process that can be observed. 

Now, you on the other hand, claim to know with certainty that a supernatural god exists outside this space time, who made everything by magic. So give me some absolute proof of absolute god or admit that you, too, have unanswered questions. 

Keith, most of us here do not have absolute faith in the hypotheses and theories that constitute scientific data. But we do believe the process of testable explanation is the best method by which we can ascertain what can most closely be proven true. 

It's what each of us is prepared to accept as evidence that sets us apart. If I am not certain then faith does not cut it. I await further data. What about you??

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, fair enough. We are held to the standards we attest to. I approach this not from as scientific standpoint as you do. Your standard is scientific, therefore I expect a scientific explanation for the origin of time, space, matter and ultimately life. So a scientist was able to create an amino acid in a lab environment. Big deal. It wasn't life. There are over 200 amino acids and only 20 of those are found in life. The one created was not one found in life. It contained 50/50 "left hand/right hand" acids versus straight "right hand" that is only found in life. So he in essence created death, not life.   Furthermore, it was created in the absence of oxygen. It could not and cannot be created in an environment containing oxygen. Therefore, if no oxygen could be present in your view on life creation, how could it survive without an atmosphere (ozone) to protect it from the sun? Any life form would have been fried instantly.

 

My faith based "theory" explains it for me. I have a faith already. I don't need yours that contains nothing, originated in nothing, and goes nowhere.

 

 

 

As I say, abiogenesis is mysterious and extremely complex and we do not fully understand it but it remains a biochemical process that will one day be explained.

Your position, as I suggested earlier, is an argument from complexity. You say there is something that's not understood and imply it can never be understood and go on to claim the only way it can be explained is by an inexplicable process that no one will ever understand. You can imagine how this sounds to me. I certainly do not argue there is no mystery in the universe because there certainly is but I do say that one mystery does not justify unshakable belief in another inexplicable mystery that is asserted to explain the first mystery some way that can never be described.  

If your faith position is based on a conclusion you feel is logical, first cause or apparent design, etc; when it comes to what can be known, I contend that there are three conditions for true knowledge. The first being that I have a belief in an object, the second being that the existence of this object is true, and the third condition being that I can justify the belief that such an object can be shown to exist. For me the third is the most important element of what could be called true knowledge, as compared with opinion or assertion.

Your final comment is rather passive aggressive and simply suggests honest questioning threatens your worldview and it's really quite unnecessary. Consider that the empirical method is what keeps planes in the sky, shaves cylinder heads and explains all that we can say we know about the nature and processes on this earth. To say empiricism contains nothing, originates in nothing and goes nowhere is to reject everything you know about your existence in this space time. 

In any case, you are obviously in awe of the universe and the world in general and so am I. Standing under the Milky Way and sensing the hundred billion strong colony of me, a barely comprehended association of prokaryotic cells at work, and behind them an arrangement of atoms who physical existence may be no more than vibration, I am part of the self awareness of the universe and this is a magnificent, warm and connecting experience. 

Still, Keith, you may be right. Given the dearth of matter in the universe we may one day discover after all, that nothing really is everything. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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In the Middle Ages

In the Middle Ages, when a child was born with birth defects, it was thought to be the work of the Devil by the Church.

We now know through science that this was not so.

In the Dark Ages, when the Black Death hit Europe, the church predicted the end of time, Satan, Jews and everything else for the cause. Groups of people called flagellants went from village to village, beating themselves with whips, hoping for the penance of Christ.

We now know, through science, that this was all rubbish and the disease was caused by rats carrying it aboard ships bound for Europe.

At one time, people thought the Earth was flat and you would sail off of the horizon if you took your boat out too far.

Science shows us this is not so.

Science has given us antibiotics, pasteurization, electricity, computers, microscopes, telescopes, astronomy, geology, knowledge of germs and sanitation, physics, blood transfusions, and prosthetics.

What has religion given us ?

If there is such a thing as sin, the first sin was faith, the first virtue was doubt.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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The Hardest Part

The hardest part about being an Atheist is that we'll never get the opportunity to say "I TOLD YOU SO, SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO ME".  Laughing out loud

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:The

harleysportster wrote:

The hardest part about being an Atheist is that we'll never get the opportunity to say "I TOLD YOU SO, SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO ME".  Laughing out loud

hehe Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ok, I'm going to try to

Ok, I'm going to try to address the posts between my last one and this one. I hope I don't miss a point because you all made some good ones that I would like to address.

With regards to faith: I don't think there's anyone who disagrees that some people are more understanding of complexities than others. I'm sure many if not all of you assume I'm just some dumb ol' Jesus freak who does not believe in science at all. Not true in the least. Science has made some of the most valuable contributions to the planet and I would never say that. I can and do believe the observed and tested evidence that I see. Next step, who on this board has the mind of Hawking and can computate the things he does with the speed and accuracy he does? I'm willing to bet that there are none. The thing with faith is that it completely levels the playing field. There are some things that science can never answer. God purposely puts these stumbling blocks in front of us. How good would that be of Him to allow some to understand but not others?

With regard to empirical science, I'm all for that. It's not what we see however, that we disagree about, it's how we fill in the gaps in the information we don't know. The Evolutionist/Big Banger starts out by totally elimintating the concept of a creator. When I see a system of systems working together with such order I cannot help but assume that there was a creator behind it. Here's an example: I go out to my car in the morning and drive to work. I see my car and its design and think "The guys at Ford did a good job making this". The evo/big banger cannot have a designer/creator behind it so he's left to assume that a tornado or other major event happened to a junk yard full of auto parts and, by chance, assembled the pieces and gave it the gas it needed to go all the while never able to explain how the junk yard came into being in the first place. To say that Science can't explain it now but one day it will is nothing more than a hope. You hope it does because the alternative for you is unthinkable. That there is a Creator and He has laws. The fear of changing your life, giving up on things you want to do that are contrary to His law, and fear of ridicule by peers keeps you in your present mind state (I've been there. I know what I'm talking about) . Do you see where I'm coming from now?


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harleysportster wrote:The

harleysportster wrote:

The hardest part about being an Atheist is that we'll never get the opportunity to say "I TOLD YOU SO, SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO ME".  Laughing out loud

 


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Welcome!It looks like you

Welcome!

It looks like you experienced sudden helpful circumstances in your life that saved you from ending up badly. Congratulations.
But tell me, what led you to conviction that there was this Judeo-Christian god behind this all? What if it was Allah? You know how Islam feels about alcohol. 

Yes, you had a bit too many odd coincidences, I don't deny that. But did these coincidences speak to you specifically about Christian doctrines and dogmas? Why should you swallow whole Bible, if your experiences did not outline this particular ideology? What if you just happened to be around a charitable Christian group that needed another devotee? They are well-estabilished in this addiction recovery business, no wonder you ended up with them. 

Was it necessary for your recovery to believe in people risen from the dead, upcoming Apocalypse and talking and mythical animals described in Bible?

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:Welcome!It

Luminon wrote:

Welcome!

It looks like you experienced sudden helpful circumstances in your life that saved you from ending up badly. Congratulations.
But tell me, what led you to conviction that there was this Judeo-Christian god behind this all? What if it was Allah? You know how Islam feels about alcohol. 

Yes, you had a bit too many odd coincidences, I don't deny that. But did these coincidences speak to you specifically about Christian doctrines and dogmas? Why should you swallow whole Bible, if your experiences did not outline this particular ideology? What if you just happened to be around a charitable Christian group that needed another devotee? They are well-estabilished in this addiction recovery business, no wonder you ended up with them. 

Was it necessary for your recovery to believe in people risen from the dead, upcoming Apocalypse and talking and mythical animals described in Bible?

The natural state of man is evil..self centeredness/self serving, full of pride, lusts, envy and so on. We are not products of society, society is a product of us. Islam/Allah requires true repentance/submission and good works to be saved. If you truly repent, you will never sin again. Given the natural state of man, this is impossible (there is no indwelling of any type thus muslims live 100% in the flesh) . There is no forgiveness of sin outside of this requirement thus salvation is impossible in Islam. I do not believe God made me just to condemn me.

Reincarnation just sounds so ridiculous to me that I can't even imagine a god that would keep sending you through life as various creatures until you get it right.

In Judeo Christianity, God knows our natural state and that salvation on our own is impossible. He sent his only begotten Son who lived a sinless life and willingly laid down his life as a perfect sacrifice. My sin was taken upon him on the cross and salvation is now possible if I so willingly believe this.

It was no charitable Christian group that sobered me up. I seriously doubt more than 2 of them even knew of my problems and I could not even accept Christ until I sobered up. They helped my in many other ways (no charge..no oaths to them..in fact, I haven't seen any of those original few in well over 10 years) so the "needing a devotee" doesn't wash. Sobering up was only 1 part of it. My life and circumstance was still a wreck. This is where the Christian Doctrine helped me. It sounds like you know what these are (at least in definition) so I won't go into the list here.


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BobSpence1 wrote:Some forms

BobSpence1 wrote:

Some forms of life can and do survive in the absence of free oxygen.

The consistent 'right-hand' chirality of life molecules simply follows once it starts reproducing, but the raw source of amino acids from which life emerged does not have to be only of that form.

They have done more than create an amino acid. Amino acids are already present in many parts of the universe. What they did was apply a simply set of processes of heating, evaporation, cooling, etc to a mix of amino acids and produced simple RNA molecules, the minimum starting point of life, molecules capable of self-replication. The conditions they applied were entirely in the range of what could have occurred on the early Earth. The precursor molecules they used have been identified in interstellar dust clouds, so they can clearly form naturally.

These only need to form in shaded pools or in the ocean for UV radiation from the Sun to be not a factor.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/

No faith required.

Ok so assume that it happened as you said with no atmosphere and in shaded pools or ocean for UV radiation not to be a factor. How hospitable of an environment would the ocean or a shaded pool be if there were no atmosphere? A step further, could you even have an ocean or pool without atmosphere?