How to look at Israel in context

A_Nony_Mouse
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How to look at Israel in context

Taking is up where we left off last time, Israel is now ready to meet its maker. The occupied Palestinians living under a despotic, jewish, military dictatorship have in fact acted as a nation. In September they are going to petition the UN for membership -- which is separate from recognized existence as an independent country, occupied or not.

I know some may say the Palestinian authority is free but it does not differe from Vichy France in any respect save for freedom to appeal to the nations of the world for liberation from jewish tyranny.

The world is about to recognize the rules adopted during WWII. The occupiers can do no right. The occupied can do no wrong.

In September the nation of Palestine will be deinied  membership in the UN solely because of the US veto of membership as a member of the UN Security Council. That is what will happen.

At that point 2/3rds of the nations of the world will have to implement their local laws regarding boycotts and such of Israel. The issue is very clear, no political group can claim to be rulers of a state for the purpose of suppressing other political groups in a democracy. Jewish supremacists in Israel must be brought to heel. Minorities must be protected not be subjected to discriminatory legislaton as that is the definiton of Apartheid. Israel is replete with such legislation.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Which leads me to an recent

Which leads me to an recent US agreement with Israel to issue an unliimited number of immigration visas on an emergency basis. How apropos to the current situation. Preparation for the inevitable.

Despite the Zionist propaganda family history remembers the homeland which, in most cases, was favorable save for the war which was over in 1945.
There is NO attachment to bibleland.

At least 20% of Russian Jews have gone home and some estimates are as high as 80%. Why are there only estimates? Isael never subtracts those who leave from its population statistice as was revealed by Haaretz years ago. Citizenship and population are always different numbers. In any event there is no attachment to the land despite the zionist Blut und Erde rhetoric.

In any event after September Israel is set up for active international ostracism all very lawful and customary and all the whines about hating jews won't get out of the box. Non-starter period.

So what can be done? Already serious people in Israel are waring the current government is insane enough to bomb Iran to divert attention. And no rational response is in place for Iran lobbing missiles into Israel until hell freezes over. See above unlimited immigration visas. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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Jesus cristos on a cracker.

Jesus cristos on a cracker. I think it is STUPID to side with Palestine based on a childish idea of "virtue of the oppressed" and the emotional appeal of the "underdog" story.

The leadership of Palestine isn't JUST basing their actions on "occupation", the are basing it on non-Muslims being apostates deserving of death. This isn't the Native Americans simply saying "get off my land whity", The Natives at first welcomed the newbies UNTIL they started pushing them off their land, and the Natives who fought back were not basing it on religion, but "occupation"

Palestines position is not merely "get off my land". They hate jews as much as Hitler did. Maybe not all in Palestine, but most certainly far to many in their leadership. That hatred deserves absolutely no respect.

Israel's problem is that isn't that it is westernized, and by no means is it a dictatorship, to call it such is absurd.

My problem with Israel in it's history was that the Jews took some very bad advice from the west after WW2 in wanting to move into a crack infested neighborhood and why? Because they wanted a land their fictional god promised them. But the nuts that control Palestine are far worse in merely saying "Allah gave them this land" in the fact that .

If you want to say occupation is bad, I agree. But you are not going to get me to side with Palestine when it clearly goes beyond mere "you took my land" when their leadership is clearly bent on religious and ethnic genocide of Jews(not that they can, but they would if they could)

SO you want me to blindly support Palestine simply because I don't agree with Israel's actions all the time. Sorry, cant and wont do that. They are pluralistic and far more secular and a reflection of a civil society than the Muslim theocracy that controls Palestine.

If any Palestinian wants my support then they need to fucking knock of the political violence. They would get what they want very quickly through non violent protest and a change to accept the existence of Jews, not just there, but all over the world.

ISLAM is still stuck in the past collectively, Jews are not. I am not going to side with bronze age dickheads simply because the adults(Israel, fucks up by making things worse)

You want my support, then get the fuckwad theocratic nuts to give up on their idea that Jews deserve death and give up on violence. Until then, they should not be shocked in  the least that Israel responds, even if the response is over kill.

Whatever economic problems and poverty that exists in Palestine cannot be helped by those in the neighborhood rejecting pluralism and outsiders.  Neither Palestine or Israel are completely innocent in this mess, but Israel reflects far more a modern society than Palestine does.

Again, if they want my help and support, then they need to stop their bullshit "Allah will kick your ass". They need to climb out of the Dark Ages first.

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Brian37
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As far as I am concerned

As far as I am concerned this is a bullshit fight that has been going on forever between Jews and Muslims. Jews did not help themselves buy moving back after WW2, but they damned sure are far more worldly and pluralistic as far as religion and ethnics.

ALL religions, not just Islam, but all, need to adapt to modern society and our small world now. Islam is still that childish brat who cant stand that others share the sandbox. Israel is wrong in that it thought a god gave them the land when the reality was a sympathetic world did, and wrongfully so precisely because of the ongoing problem.

Until both parties accept that this is a deep seeded meme of the war between sky daddies, and until both put that bullshit aside, this problem will continue.

It is absolute bullshit to say sky daddy belief is not causing problems for both sides and to say this is strictly occupation is absurd.

Personally I would tell all my Jewish friends go fucking move out of that crack infested neighborhood and leave it to the theocratic nutjobs. I think if they did that, what would happen is any secular Muslims would find out how quickly they too would want to leave the area.

This problem IS religiously based but it IS mainly being caused by the refusal of Muslims to accept secularism and pluralism. Israel isn't helping themselves either by swatting flies with sledgehammers.

 

 

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 A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Jews

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

I agree. 
Unfortunately, there is a bit more to know about USA, who made their army 3rd best in the world.

No, I don't hate Jews. They have some good musicians (I mean electronic music, not klezmer) The problem is with Israeli politicians and military leaders.

The trick is, everyone need justice, freedom and peace. Everyone, even the Taliban, Hamas, all the Palestinians and citizens of Iraq or Tibet. The invading force portrays them as unmanageable troublemakers asking for more soldiers to be shipped in their land. But you'd have to be pretty much brainwashed by American Jewish-owned media to believe that. 

 

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Brian37
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Luminon wrote: A_Nony_Mouse

Luminon wrote:

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

I agree. 
Unfortunately, there is a bit more to know about USA, who made their army 3rd best in the world.

No, I don't hate Jews. They have some good musicians (I mean electronic music, not klezmer) The problem is with Israeli politicians and military leaders.

The trick is, everyone need justice, freedom and peace. Everyone, even the Taliban, Hamas, all the Palestinians and citizens of Iraq or Tibet. The invading force portrays them as unmanageable troublemakers asking for more soldiers to be shipped in their land. But you'd have to be pretty much brainwashed by American Jewish-owned media to believe that. 

 

Luminon, you have to be out of your mind to think that the Taliban wants freedom. NO they want to be free to be dictators to their own.  That is not freedom, that is freedom to dictate.

Where the hell do you get off trying peddle a Jewish media conspiracy? You'd have a case if there were a monopoly on media controled by one family or one political party. That is far from the case and your stupid assertion that Jews control the media is as bad as Hitler blaming the Jews for the world's problems. I think you need to stop hanging out with Mel Gibson.

Wow, I've read some really weird stuff coming from you before, but this takes the cake.

The Taliban wants the freedom to oppress women and non-Muslims. The Palestinians DO have plenty of people who do merely want to stop the occupation, BUT are lead by people who would not be merely satisfied with borders and would if they could, do what Hitler did to the Jews.

You have got to be out of your mind to think the Taliban wants pluralism or freedom, just because they want to be left alone. I think what they do to their women is sick and amounts to religious slavery. How you can call yourself moral and justify giving them "peace" when they don't want freedom for their own people, is sick.

I DO have problems with Israel's military and leadership, but it is not a conspiracy and any real beefs Palestinians do have or lost to the fact that they allow themselves to be ruled by theocratic nuts bent on the extermination of Jews. So if Palestinians want the west off their backs and want peace, they have to reject the tribal dickheads who rule over them.

You need to give yourself a reality check. I have problems with both sides, but Palestine is the one causing problems they could easily fix by rejecting theocracy and embracing pluralism and secularism. They can have the peace they say they want quite easly. But the Palestinian leadership doesn't want peace, it wants a theocracy and it wants to exterminate Jews. Whatever poverty and collateral damage sympathy I do have for some Palestinians does NOT change the fact that their leadership are a bunch of dark age goons. They need to embrace western secularism and pluralism and clean their own house if they want things to get better.

I am quite sure for example, Terran is quite peaceful, and probably has a low crime rate, but that "peace" comes at the cost of non-Shiites and non-Muslims being oppressed. That "peace" comes at the cost of no political competition or freedom of speech.

If Palestine had the weapons and the power they would set up a theocracy. That might bring peace, but it would not value individuality or protect individual rights.

Isreal's government is secular by comparison and does allow for freedom of religion and protects media and individual rights. I do think it makes tons of mistakes like America has in it's history in regards to minorities and mistreats Muslims and their neighbors. But they are not the same in any way to the theocracy Palestine would set up nor would they advocate sticking Muslims in ovens like far too many Muslims in Palestine would do do Jews if given the chance.

Whatever problems I have with Israel and how they react, they are not a dictatorship nor are they anything like Hamas or the Taliban. To say that the Taliban or Hamas deserves rights is absurd. No group that advocates the extermination of outsiders who bases it on "god said so" deserves every fucking condemnation.

You are out of your mind if you think the leadership of Palestine values human rights. They do want peace, but not pluralism or individual rights. They want an Allah run government. Nothing any modern westernized secular Muslim should want.

 

 

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AND ANOTHER THING"You

AND ANOTHER THING

"You started it" is a bad argument. I might agree moving there after WW2 was a bad Idea. But blaming me, for example, for slavery when I wasn't born then, or saying "lets give the land back to the Native Americans", is fucking absurd.

What is done is done and Jews are not going anywhere. Just as it would be absurd for a black person to come up to me and demand that I pay for what happened before I was born.

I would agree that when Israel bombs the shit out of an entire nation to the point of pissing of even the Arab Chrisitans, you ARE doing something wrong. Just like it was wrong for America to encamp Japanese Americans during WW2.

BUT to try to equate any wrong Israel has done, to what the Muslim nutjobs would set up if given the chance is absurd. This is not a 50/50 proposition and the people who have the power to stop this bullshit don't want to because Allah is on a mission, and none of that mission involves pluralism or human rights.

I do not think that "peace" should come at the cost of Palestine setting up a theocracy, that would, if it did, oppress non-Muslims and collect weapons to aim at non-Muslims. The only way they are going to get peace is to grow the fuck up and become secular and pluralistic and value individual rights.

 

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Brian37
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If Germany and Japan can

If Germany and Japan can change so can Palestine, but do not fucking ask me to shed a tear for their leadership who is bent on genocide and WOULD NOT value individual rights if we did give them the borders and nation they wanted.

Until they rid themselves of their Dark Age leadership thugs, Palestine will continue causing pain to their own people, even the secular Muslims who are merely victims of merely being born in the wrong place.

EVEN IF Jews suddenly left, there may not be war in that region, but any Palestinian nation would not reflect the west and would look like the dictatorships like Iran and Saudi Arabia. I don't see how you would want those living conditions for any human. It certainly  would be fine for those in power, but it would suck for any minorities or objectors in such a case.

 

 

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Brian37
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Seriously Luminon and Noony,

Seriously Luminon and Noony, you do a disservice to any Palestinian, and I am sure there are plenty, who are not interested in living in a theocracy and WOULD embrace pluralism and secularism, by suggesting that we give into the demands of religious thugs.

What you would do to those innocent people merely living under those nutjobs, is allow them to be oppressed themselves. You are not helping the Palestinians by suggesting they be allowed to set up their own religious dictatorship. Where would the rights be for non-Muslims left under such a Palestinian state? There would be no rights for non-Muslims or objectors. There would be no free press or individual rights.

You should want the Palestinians to have freedom and peace, I do too. But the current leadership of Palestine would not set up a secular pluralistic government and WOULD oppress even any Muslim dissent.

Is that what you think "peace" should entail? You are willing to sacrifice any truly secular Muslim that do exist there? I think those who would embrace secularism and pluralism deserve better than that.

Your anger should be aimed at the Palestinian theocratic nutjobs who rule, they are the only ones who can end it right now and very quickly if they wanted to. THEY DONT WANT TO because they are to busy sucking the dick of Allah.

I am only willing to criticize Israel to the extent that their reactions are sometimes outrageous, but they are nowhere near the theocratic mindset the Palestine rulers are. Palestine is to blame and can stop it very quickly if they wanted to.

Like I said, Palestine needs to reject theocracy and get with the modern world and accept pluralism and individual rights. The do not deserve a state unless they are willing to do that.

 

 

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And be careful using the

And be careful using the word "democracy", Palestine did have elections and voted in theocrats who do not and would not value the rights of non-muslims.

Simply voting does not constituted and open society. Iran has elections too, but that is merely a democratic dictatorship, it is still mob rule by vote.

Hamas is the majority power now in Palestine and they would not give Jews any rights nor you or me.

A pluralistic society goes way beyond merely voting, it values and defends the rights of minorities and has checks on power. Hamas does not want that kind of "democracy".

The only way Palestine will get my support is if it gives up on the idea of an Allah run government and openly states that minorities will be constitutionally protected as equally as the majority. I am not, nor am I impressed in the least that they vote. Voting alone does not protect pluralism or dissent.

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Seriously

Brian37 wrote:

Seriously Luminon and Noony, you do a disservice to any Palestinian, and I am sure there are plenty, who are not interested in living in a theocracy and WOULD embrace pluralism and secularism, by suggesting that we give into the demands of religious thugs.

What you would do to those innocent people merely living under those nutjobs, is allow them to be oppressed themselves. You are not helping the Palestinians by suggesting they be allowed to set up their own religious dictatorship. Where would the rights be for non-Muslims left under such a Palestinian state? There would be no rights for non-Muslims or objectors. There would be no free press or individual rights. 

You should want the Palestinians to have freedom and peace, I do too. But the current leadership of Palestine would not set up a secular pluralistic government and WOULD oppress even any Muslim dissent.

Is that what you think "peace" should entail? You are willing to sacrifice any truly secular Muslim that do exist there? I think those who would embrace secularism and pluralism deserve better than that. 

I like how the declaration of human rights describes clearly what people need. If I'd be the head doing the talking, I'd suggest a fair deal, a help from UN. But under the condition of a help according to the Declaration, (secular between the lines) with obligatory estabilishing women rights and creating a state open to any religion or ethnicity. After all, a state is supposed to be an administrative unit for paperwork, not a golden throne with a glorified guy on it. 

So, you believe that Palestinians would refuse such a deal? Either they get to create a private Muslim hell for Jews, or they'll keep dying in a private Jewish hell for Muslims. 

I believe that Palestinians would accept a fair deal. Yasir Arafat certainly would, if he'd ever been given one. Hell, even Saddam Hussein offered to surrender, only Americans wanted his head. I really liked the attitude of Egyptians this year, "we don't care about religion, we just want to get Mubarak down." And I heard the revolutions are still spreading.

If the die-hard Hamas leaders refuse anything but dying heroic deaths, then I suggest we let them and arrange an independent survey among the ordinary citizens of Gaza, who know they have families to raise. To do that, it is necessary to NOT respect the Israeli state sovereignity. Israeli army and government uses violence for political goals, which is defines them as terrorists. Soldiers of all nations should travel by thousands to Israel, not Iraq.

Brian37 wrote:
 Your anger should be aimed at the Palestinian theocratic nutjobs who rule, they are the only ones who can end it right now and very quickly if they wanted to. THEY DONT WANT TO because they are to busy sucking the dick of Allah.

I am only willing to criticize Israel to the extent that their reactions are sometimes outrageous, but they are nowhere near the theocratic mindset the Palestine rulers are. Palestine is to blame and can stop it very quickly if they wanted to.

Like I said, Palestine needs to reject theocracy and get with the modern world and accept pluralism and individual rights. The do not deserve a state unless they are willing to do that.

OK, how exactly could Palestinian leaders end the conflict, if they wanted to? My impression was, that it's the other states and media who don't lend them any voice. It seems to me that estabilishing some serious diplomatic talk with Palestinians would be even classified as a treason (like against the official policy of European Union, the 2nd pillar of Maastricht Treaty) Or was it with Iran, don't know. 

On the opposite, USA could end it any time. There were 60 intended sanctions of UN council against Israel, (embargos and stuff) before people stopped counting them, because USA vetoed them all. I heard USA finances Israeli army. So who is actually keeping the conflict going? Hell, even Christians worldwide cheer for Israel no matter what it does, because Israelites have their screenplay lines in the Bible. 

And why are you so hung up on getting rid of theocracy? You get rid of theocracy, that's fine, but people still get screwed, because next in the line there is the market system, which ransoms people's vital necessities for money, like food or housing. That's what happens when totalitarian regimes fall, Coca Cola moves in and people spend all national wealth for cheap shit from the capitalistic countries. There are gigantic privatization thefts and soon the robbed country is glad to become a part of a giant trade syndicate like European Union. Subsequent increase in consumerism creates more strain on natural resources, more poverty and conflict in third-world countries, more military invasions and more would-be liberated and democratized countries, ready to accept consumerism.

You say, fuck theocracy. I say that's not enough, fuck all the exclusive, competitive systems and institutions, boycott Israel, ignore USA, switch to resource-based economy and make every fucking government in the world practice this lovely document from UN, or else. 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Jesus cristos

Brian37 wrote:

Jesus cristos on a cracker. I think it is STUPID to side with Palestine based on a childish idea of "virtue of the oppressed" and the emotional appeal of the "underdog" story.

The leadership of Palestine isn't JUST basing their actions on "occupation", the are basing it on non-Muslims being apostates deserving of death. This isn't the Native Americans simply saying "get off my land whity", The Natives at first welcomed the newbies UNTIL they started pushing them off their land, and the Natives who fought back were not basing it on religion, but "occupation"

Lets us just reduce this to the essentials. The occupier can do no right. The occupied can do no wrong.

That is enshrined in post WWII case law and in the Geneva Conventions.

So there is nothing to discuss.

The Jewish military dictatorship is always wrong by the simple fact that it is a dictatorship which is not mitigated by the fact that it is also jewish.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:As far as I am

Brian37 wrote:

As far as I am concerned this is a bullshit fight that has been going on forever between Jews and Muslims. Jews did not help themselves buy moving back after WW2, but they damned sure are far more worldly and pluralistic as far as religion and ethnics.

If you look at real history instead of zionist BS you will find that there was no conflict in Palestine between Jews and Muslims until the Europeans arrived and started the conflict.

You will also find in real history that the zionists gave the native Orthodox Jews of Palestine near complete control over Judaism in exchange for their silence in condemning Zionism and the creation of Israel which they objected to as heretical and an abomination.

This is not a secret. It is well known in Israel. Of course you can also explain why Reform and Conservative conversions are not recognized in Israel for marriage and burial and children being Jewish if you think otherwise. And as there is no civil marriage in Israel you can see the problems this causes.

All you need to know. Nine words, two sentences.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all there is to know about the conflict. That is all you need to know about the conflict.

Now please tell me why I am so blessed with people who know next to nothing about the facts of the case.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Brian37

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Jesus cristos on a cracker. I think it is STUPID to side with Palestine based on a childish idea of "virtue of the oppressed" and the emotional appeal of the "underdog" story.

The leadership of Palestine isn't JUST basing their actions on "occupation", the are basing it on non-Muslims being apostates deserving of death. This isn't the Native Americans simply saying "get off my land whity", The Natives at first welcomed the newbies UNTIL they started pushing them off their land, and the Natives who fought back were not basing it on religion, but "occupation"

Lets us just reduce this to the essentials. The occupier can do no right. The occupied can do no wrong.

That is enshrined in post WWII case law and in the Geneva Conventions.

So there is nothing to discuss.

The Jewish military dictatorship is always wrong by the simple fact that it is a dictatorship which is not mitigated by the fact that it is also jewish.

Bullshit.

You think it is ok to strap a bomb to yourself and blow up unarmed people on a bus simply because you don't like the government those unarmed people live under? You think it is ok to kill in the name of god?

Dont even try to justify murder with "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" bullshit.

Until Palestine is willing to give up on it's theocratic goals, they are NOT going to get one lick of sympathy from me, especially when they wont condemn suicide bombing. And not even of military, they do it to UNARMED PEOPLE.

What kind of fucking reaction do you think you are going to get from anyone pulling shit like that?

 

If someone killed my family or friends what would you have me do? ESPECIALLY if my family or friends were unarmed at the time they were murdered?

You are trying to justify two wrongs make a right.

If Palestine truly wants the moral high ground then they need to stop the rocket attacks and stop the suicide bombings and stop demanding the extermination of Jews.

 

 

 

 

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A_Nony_Mouse
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Luminon wrote: A_Nony_Mouse

Luminon wrote:

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

I agree. 
Unfortunately, there is a bit more to know about USA, who made their army 3rd best in the world.

No, I don't hate Jews. They have some good musicians (I mean electronic music, not klezmer) The problem is with Israeli politicians and military leaders.

I do not feel it necessary to say I do not hate Jews. It is clear I onlyl identify Zionists as murderers and thieves by their own definition.

Quote:
The trick is, everyone need justice, freedom and peace. Everyone, even the Taliban, Hamas, all the Palestinians and citizens of Iraq or Tibet. The invading force portrays them as unmanageable troublemakers asking for more soldiers to be shipped in their land. But you'd have to be pretty much brainwashed by American Jewish-owned media to believe that. 

The standard of justice for Palstinians is exactly the same standard of justice Israel demands for Jews from Europe as a consequence of WWII. Jews are no better than Palestinians. Palestinians deserve no less justice than Jews.

And before the BS starts, the theft of personal property is well documented which started in 1948. The theft of land began in 1949 which is proven by the existence of the absentee owner laws which were used to steal the land under color of law.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:And be careful

Brian37 wrote:

And be careful using the word "democracy", Palestine did have elections and voted in theocrats who do not and would not value the rights of non-muslims.

Simply voting does not constituted and open society. Iran has elections too, but that is merely a democratic dictatorship, it is still mob rule by vote.

Hamas is the majority power now in Palestine and they would not give Jews any rights nor you or me.

A pluralistic society goes way beyond merely voting, it values and defends the rights of minorities and has checks on power. Hamas does not want that kind of "democracy".

The only way Palestine will get my support is if it gives up on the idea of an Allah run government and openly states that minorities will be constitutionally protected as equally as the majority. I am not, nor am I impressed in the least that they vote. Voting alone does not protect pluralism or dissent.

That is a wonderful and even impressive tirade. But I do not see the important parts.

Why and how does that mean the human rights of Palestinians are not recognized by the jewish, military dictatorship which rules them?

Hamas is terrible even though Israel created it as well documented by Fisk and by Israelis themselves. What does that have to do with no human rights for Palestinians? Please explain how one negates the other. I assume you can explain it as you have said it does.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Criminal squatter towns and war criminal jews

Let us get this straight. Israel used to LIE claiming its war criminal squattertowns in occupied Palestine were for the defense of Israel and thus were NOT war crimes as they fell under the military necessity exemption. Anyone dumb enough to think one puts civilians on the front line does not understand the subject.

Then peace broke out with Jordan and as there was no longer an excuse for military necessity. What to do? Tell the war criminals to grab as much land as possible to make it politically impossible to give up occupied Palestine. Israel's volunteer war criminals did exactly that.

So yes, it is politically impossible for Israel but that is Israel's problem and no one else's. Israel wanted to have the problem. It is their problem. It is all internal not an external problem.

For the world outside of Israel, its criminal behavior cannot be rewarded particularly when they are war crimes.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Brian37

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

As far as I am concerned this is a bullshit fight that has been going on forever between Jews and Muslims. Jews did not help themselves buy moving back after WW2, but they damned sure are far more worldly and pluralistic as far as religion and ethnics.

If you look at real history instead of zionist BS you will find that there was no conflict in Palestine between Jews and Muslims until the Europeans arrived and started the conflict.

You will also find in real history that the zionists gave the native Orthodox Jews of Palestine near complete control over Judaism in exchange for their silence in condemning Zionism and the creation of Israel which they objected to as heretical and an abomination.

This is not a secret. It is well known in Israel. Of course you can also explain why Reform and Conservative conversions are not recognized in Israel for marriage and burial and children being Jewish if you think otherwise. And as there is no civil marriage in Israel you can see the problems this causes.

All you need to know. Nine words, two sentences.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all there is to know about the conflict. That is all you need to know about the conflict.

Now please tell me why I am so blessed with people who know next to nothing about the facts of the case.

Again, bullshit.

And by that standard every white non-native American should move back to Europe. My ancestors were not Native Americans. You think I should hand my own house to a Native American now when I had nothing to do with what my ancestors did?

And by that standard Australia should give that country back to the Aborigonies(sp)

YOU ONCE AGAIN MISS MY POINT.

"HE STARTED IT" is bullshit and I don't give a fuck. I already said the deed was done, but for you to think Israel should be desolved and all it's citizens go back to Europe WONT HAPPEN, so stop crying like a baby over things you wont fucking change.

DEAL WITH THE HERE AND NOW, not the fucking past. Israel was established and the deed is done NOTHING will change the past.

The Palestinians are not helping themselves at all by demanding things that wont happen and most certainly wont change a damned thing by using murder as a political tactic.

Solving a wrong by doing a wrong doesnt solve shit and dwelling in the past over history that cannot be reversed is childish and FUCKING STUPID

ONCE AGAIN, if they want the moral high ground then they need to stop being violent. PERIOD, otherwise they give Israel the excuse to make excuses for what they do. If you don't want them to have a reason DONT GIVE THEM A FUCKING REASON

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:Where the hell

Brian37 wrote:
Where the hell do you get off trying peddle a Jewish media conspiracy?

Pardon but many years ago on Jan 31 ABC Evening News ended the broadcast with a two minute slow scroll of all the people who worked to produce the ABC Evening News. The only names that were not clearly Jewish were questionably Jewish.

When the entir production news team in Jewish there is no need to postulate a conspiracy.

Considering that all the US news sources of interest are headquartered in NYC as is ABC are we to assume all but ABC are Goy news sources?

There is not a single thing in the definition of conspiracy that requires it to be secret and zionism is the most open conspiracy in the world. So too the zionists who give it favorable publicity. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Let us

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Let us get this straight. Israel used to LIE claiming its war criminal squattertowns in occupied Palestine were for the defense of Israel and thus were NOT war crimes as they fell under the military necessity exemption. Anyone dumb enough to think one puts civilians on the front line does not understand the subject.

Then peace broke out with Jordan and as there was no longer an excuse for military necessity. What to do? Tell the war criminals to grab as much land as possible to make it politically impossible to give up occupied Palestine. Israel's volunteer war criminals did exactly that.

So yes, it is politically impossible for Israel but that is Israel's problem and no one else's. Israel wanted to have the problem. It is their problem. It is all internal not an external problem.

For the world outside of Israel, its criminal behavior cannot be rewarded particularly when they are war crimes.

 

As I understand it, the Jewish people who resettled in Israel after WWII were of the belief it was their homeland, not the Palestinians homeland.  It always sounded very similar to me to other disputed lands.  Northern Ireland, a portion of the Navajo/Hopi reservations in the SW US, the entire Serbia/Croatia/etc area and so on.  

But as Brian37 said, it isn't going to happen that the Israelis will give the land back to the Palestinians now regardless of the legality of any take over.  I happen to agree it probably is a war crime - though I am no lawyer so my opinion is worth doodly.  Practically, they are going to have to come to some realization that the bible is a book of myths that never happened and their claims based on the portion I think of as the old testament are invalid.  I don't see that happening any time in the near future.

The Palestinians and other Islamic groups also have to get over the terrorists bombings.  It is not helping their cause, it is hurting it.  Most westerners - at least everyone I have ever talked with - agrees that terrorist bombings are wrong, so wrong that the people who suicide in that fashion are evil and deserved to die.  And the general consensus - among my theistic friends - is that terrorist bombers should all roast in hell. 

Until everyone gets past those two points, nothing constructive is going to happen.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Brian37 wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Jesus cristos on a cracker. I think it is STUPID to side with Palestine based on a childish idea of "virtue of the oppressed" and the emotional appeal of the "underdog" story.

The leadership of Palestine isn't JUST basing their actions on "occupation", the are basing it on non-Muslims being apostates deserving of death. This isn't the Native Americans simply saying "get off my land whity", The Natives at first welcomed the newbies UNTIL they started pushing them off their land, and the Natives who fought back were not basing it on religion, but "occupation"

Lets us just reduce this to the essentials. The occupier can do no right. The occupied can do no wrong.

That is enshrined in post WWII case law and in the Geneva Conventions.

So there is nothing to discuss.

The Jewish military dictatorship is always wrong by the simple fact that it is a dictatorship which is not mitigated by the fact that it is also jewish.

Bullshit.

You think it is ok to strap a bomb to yourself and blow up unarmed people on a bus simply because you don't like the government those unarmed people live under? You think it is ok to kill in the name of god?

Excuse but the French were famous for hiding weapons in churches to kill Nazis. You missed that movie?

You think the Poles and French and Ukrainians did not blow up trains and rail stations and anything else of value regardless of who what on board?

Do you really think the Zionists did not blow up Palestinians markets in the 1920s regardless of how many women and children they killed? Do you really think Zionists did not bomb mosques? Madrases? King David Hotels? Murder civilians? Murder Brit soldiers? Jews who got in their way? Did not invent the car bomb? Anyone who was an obstical to their political objectives?

Either you know the subject or you do not. Pretending to criticize Palestinians for what is at most copying JEWS is disgusting. By legal definition in all western countries ALL zionists are murderers and thieves and are convicted by their own admissions.

Quote:
Dont even try to justify murder with "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" bullshit.
Does that mean I should or should not mention all the terrorists Prime Ministers' of Israe?

Quote:
Until Palestine is willing to give up on it's theocratic goals,

Excuse me but theocratic when the sole Zionist claim to Palestine is theology? And as religious matters in Israel are governed by real Jews that is a theocracy. And fake Jews, non-observant are just using it as political cover for their theft and war crimes. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Let us

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Let us get this straight. Israel used to LIE claiming its war criminal squattertowns in occupied Palestine were for the defense of Israel and thus were NOT war crimes as they fell under the military necessity exemption. Anyone dumb enough to think one puts civilians on the front line does not understand the subject.

Then peace broke out with Jordan and as there was no longer an excuse for military necessity. What to do? Tell the war criminals to grab as much land as possible to make it politically impossible to give up occupied Palestine. Israel's volunteer war criminals did exactly that.

So yes, it is politically impossible for Israel but that is Israel's problem and no one else's. Israel wanted to have the problem. It is their problem. It is all internal not an external problem.

For the world outside of Israel, its criminal behavior cannot be rewarded particularly when they are war crimes.

 

 

Again bullshit.

You are doing to the citizens of Israel what you say should not be done to the citizens of Palestine. There isn't one fucking country on the face of the planet that hasn't done some horrible crap. America has had slavery, genocide. My President Bush Jr, most certainly got tons of innocent people killed. But that does not mean the entire population of my country supports what he did, nor does it mean the entire country should be disolved because of his ineptness or his personal zealotry that put us in the mess of two wars.

Unlike you, I am NOT going to blame all the individuals in Palestine like you want to blame all the citizens of Israel for whatever bad their government HAS done.

If you are going to blame an entire country for the actions of some in that country's government you might as well have me arrested for merely living in the country Bush ruled for 8 years and then have every soldier who served in Iraq and Afghanistan arrested for following orders.

Now, find me Jews in Israel who side with you, then get both those Jews and Palestinians together outside their respective leadership to get vocal, more vocal that the current leadership of either.  But to expect me to respect Hamas is a joke. That would be like asking me to respect Iran's PM.

But you are not going to get any support from me if you think blowing yourself up and taking out unarmed people will work. It just pisses people off more.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

As far as I am concerned this is a bullshit fight that has been going on forever between Jews and Muslims. Jews did not help themselves buy moving back after WW2, but they damned sure are far more worldly and pluralistic as far as religion and ethnics.

If you look at real history instead of zionist BS you will find that there was no conflict in Palestine between Jews and Muslims until the Europeans arrived and started the conflict.

You will also find in real history that the zionists gave the native Orthodox Jews of Palestine near complete control over Judaism in exchange for their silence in condemning Zionism and the creation of Israel which they objected to as heretical and an abomination.

This is not a secret. It is well known in Israel. Of course you can also explain why Reform and Conservative conversions are not recognized in Israel for marriage and burial and children being Jewish if you think otherwise. And as there is no civil marriage in Israel you can see the problems this causes.

All you need to know. Nine words, two sentences.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

That is all there is to know about the conflict. That is all you need to know about the conflict.

Now please tell me why I am so blessed with people who know next to nothing about the facts of the case.

Again, bullshit.

And by that standard every white non-native American should move back to Europe. My ancestors were not Native Americans. You think I should hand my own house to a Native American now when I had nothing to do with what my ancestors did?

Sorry but that canard was exposed within hours of it having been raised and only zionists are to stupid to understand why it is nonsense. That said they are also to stupid to realize the analogy is an admission of genocide against the Palestinians.

Genocide of the Amerinds was a very stupid thing to raise as an analogy the genocide of the Palestinians and it was equally stupid to compare peace treaties to no peace treaty. The GROSSLY stupid thing is to continue to bring it up after it has been so often exposed as nonsense.

Quote:
And by that standard Australia should give that country back to the Aborigonies(sp)

YOU ONCE AGAIN MISS MY POINT.

"HE STARTED IT" is bullshit and I don't give a fuck. I already said the deed was done, but for you to think Israel should be desolved and all it's citizens go back to Europe WONT HAPPEN, so stop crying like a baby over things you wont fucking change.

DEAL WITH THE HERE AND NOW, not the fucking past. Israel was established and the deed is done NOTHING will change the past.

The Palestinians are not helping themselves at all by demanding things that wont happen and most certainly wont change a damned thing by using murder as a political tactic.

Solving a wrong by doing a wrong doesnt solve shit and dwelling in the past over history that cannot be reversed is childish and FUCKING STUPID

ONCE AGAIN, if they want the moral high ground then they need to stop being violent. PERIOD, otherwise they give Israel the excuse to make excuses for what they do. If you don't want them to have a reason DONT GIVE THEM A FUCKING REASON

Nothing your stuck CAPSLOCK key can post that South Africa did not post. Back in the height of the boycott of SA it PM made a state visit to Israel as it was the only country that would have him. There is no difference between white supremacist and jewish supremacist states. All bigots are alike.

Real simple fact. If the world boycotts Israel the oil stops and the lights go out in a week. That is the reality.

Lets be clear about this. The Jews who live there knew they were living on stolen property. They freely chose to do so. They freely chose to rish the consequences.

No one is responsible for saving idiots from the conquences they freely chose.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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cj wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

cj wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Let us get this straight. Israel used to LIE claiming its war criminal squattertowns in occupied Palestine were for the defense of Israel and thus were NOT war crimes as they fell under the military necessity exemption. Anyone dumb enough to think one puts civilians on the front line does not understand the subject.

Then peace broke out with Jordan and as there was no longer an excuse for military necessity. What to do? Tell the war criminals to grab as much land as possible to make it politically impossible to give up occupied Palestine. Israel's volunteer war criminals did exactly that.

So yes, it is politically impossible for Israel but that is Israel's problem and no one else's. Israel wanted to have the problem. It is their problem. It is all internal not an external problem.

For the world outside of Israel, its criminal behavior cannot be rewarded particularly when they are war crimes.

As I understand it, the Jewish people who resettled in Israel after WWII were of the belief it was their homeland, not the Palestinians homeland.

If posting in an atheist only forum on an atheist website does not convince you that what people choose to believe is meaningless I do not know what will. Where do you read, "They want to believe in god therefore we have to let them impose their belief upon us"? Have you not noticed a local mission to disuade such idiots from god beliefs? Should we not do zionists the same favor and dispel their idiot CHOSEN beliefs? If not why not?

Quote:
It always sounded very similar to me to other disputed lands.  Northern Ireland, a portion of the Navajo/Hopi reservations in the SW US, the entire Serbia/Croatia/etc area and so on.
There is no dispute. Jews stole the land with their absentee owner laws starting in 1949. It is right there in there own law books. Blackletter law.

Quote:
But as Brian37 said, it isn't going to happen that the Israelis will give the land back to the Palestinians now regardless of the legality of any take over.  I happen to agree it probably is a war crime - though I am no lawyer so my opinion is worth doodly.  Practically, they are going to have to come to some realization that the bible is a book of myths that never happened and their claims based on the portion I think of as the old testament are invalid.  I don't see that happening any time in the near future.

The Palestinians and other Islamic groups also have to get over the terrorists bombings.  It is not helping their cause, it is hurting it.  Most westerners - at least everyone I have ever talked with - agrees that terrorist bombings are wrong, so wrong that the people who suicide in that fashion are evil and deserved to die.  And the general consensus - among my theistic friends - is that terrorist bombers should all roast in hell. 

Until everyone gets past those two points, nothing constructive is going to happen.

All this izziehugging zionist crap about bombings really gets out of hand. The first bombings of civilians in Palestine were by Jews of Palestinians markets. Jews started it. Payback's a bitch. Stop whining.

Second I have no problem with a test giving Palestinians modern arms and tanks and all and seeing if they still use terrorist bombs. My money says they would not.

BUT in the Warsaw ghetto Jews sabotaged packages to kill Germans. When the Germans got smarter they started sending out women with grenades which the set off to kill Gemans. Germans caught on.

Then they started sending out women with baby carriages but with dolls not babies. They killed a few Germans along with themselves as usual. Germans caught on.

Then the jewish women took their jewish babies out and still used grenades to kill their child, themselves and Germans.

This is PRAISED by Jews in Israel and every place else I can find.

So please explain to me why it is more reprehensible for Palestinians to do LESS than Jews did. I really want to know.

The issue here is name calling. Their suicide bombers are terrorists. Our suicide bombers are heroes.

I do not understand why people are dumb enough to keep after this when they know they reality. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Let us get this straight. Israel used to LIE claiming its war criminal squattertowns in occupied Palestine were for the defense of Israel and thus were NOT war crimes as they fell under the military necessity exemption. Anyone dumb enough to think one puts civilians on the front line does not understand the subject.

Then peace broke out with Jordan and as there was no longer an excuse for military necessity. What to do? Tell the war criminals to grab as much land as possible to make it politically impossible to give up occupied Palestine. Israel's volunteer war criminals did exactly that.

So yes, it is politically impossible for Israel but that is Israel's problem and no one else's. Israel wanted to have the problem. It is their problem. It is all internal not an external problem.

For the world outside of Israel, its criminal behavior cannot be rewarded particularly when they are war crimes.

Again bullshit.

You are doing to the citizens of Israel what you say should not be done to the citizens of Palestine.

I have it on the best authority I am doing nothing to anyone.

Quote:
There isn't one fucking country on the face of the planet that hasn't done some horrible crap. America has had slavery, genocide. My President Bush Jr, most certainly got tons of innocent people killed. But that does not mean the entire population of my country supports what he did, nor does it mean the entire country should be disolved because of his ineptness or his personal zealotry that put us in the mess of two wars.

You forgot to mention the relevant countries. In fact South Africa only applies to Israel proper, its real borders only. The fact is we are discussing nothing less than a military dictatorship ruling East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza and also Occupied Syria.

The issue however is the past is history and today is today and an uprising by the Palestinians against the jewish dictatorship is much more justified than in Egypt or Libya. In fact Haaretz reported this week that the IDF planning says it would murder many more than Egypt and Syria combined before it lost to the same uprising. Read The Fine Newspapers.

Quote:
Unlike you, I am NOT going to blame all the individuals in Palestine like you want to blame all the citizens of Israel for whatever bad their government HAS done.

Excuse me, good sir, but I have a question. If the citizens of a democracy are not responsible for what that democracy does then just who is responsible? Please name names in your response.

On top of that, other than a couple fringe groups like Naturi Karta NO ONE objects when Israel says it acts for all the Jews in the world and represents all the Jews in the world.

Please drop the "innocent jews" riff. I have heard it so many times it gets boring.

Quote:
If you are going to blame an entire country for the actions of some in that country's government you might as well have me arrested for merely living in the country Bush ruled for 8 years and then have every soldier who served in Iraq and Afghanistan arrested for following orders.
Excuse but following orders has been disallowed as an excuse since Nuremberg.

Quote:
Now, find me Jews in Israel who side with you, then get both those Jews and Palestinians together outside their respective leadership to get vocal, more vocal that the current leadership of either.  But to expect me to respect Hamas is a joke. That would be like asking me to respect Iran's PM.

But you are not going to get any support from me if you think blowing yourself up and taking out unarmed people will work. It just pisses people off more.

You really should have noticed by now that I don't give a rat's ass who agrees with me or if anyone agrees with me. Unlike you, I do not seek security in the agreement of others. I am an adult.

And pray tell why I would care in the least about you? The fewer people who agree with me the better I am doing. Have you missed that? Atheists should have a very big hint as to what it is like.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Brian37

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Jesus cristos on a cracker. I think it is STUPID to side with Palestine based on a childish idea of "virtue of the oppressed" and the emotional appeal of the "underdog" story.

The leadership of Palestine isn't JUST basing their actions on "occupation", the are basing it on non-Muslims being apostates deserving of death. This isn't the Native Americans simply saying "get off my land whity", The Natives at first welcomed the newbies UNTIL they started pushing them off their land, and the Natives who fought back were not basing it on religion, but "occupation"

Lets us just reduce this to the essentials. The occupier can do no right. The occupied can do no wrong.

That is enshrined in post WWII case law and in the Geneva Conventions.

So there is nothing to discuss.

The Jewish military dictatorship is always wrong by the simple fact that it is a dictatorship which is not mitigated by the fact that it is also jewish.

Bullshit.

You think it is ok to strap a bomb to yourself and blow up unarmed people on a bus simply because you don't like the government those unarmed people live under? You think it is ok to kill in the name of god?

Excuse but the French were famous for hiding weapons in churches to kill Nazis. You missed that movie?

You think the Poles and French and Ukrainians did not blow up trains and rail stations and anything else of value regardless of who what on board?

Do you really think the Zionists did not blow up Palestinians markets in the 1920s regardless of how many women and children they killed? Do you really think Zionists did not bomb mosques? Madrases? King David Hotels? Murder civilians? Murder Brit soldiers? Jews who got in their way? Did not invent the car bomb? Anyone who was an obstical to their political objectives?

Either you know the subject or you do not. Pretending to criticize Palestinians for what is at most copying JEWS is disgusting. By legal definition in all western countries ALL zionists are murderers and thieves and are convicted by their own admissions.

Quote:
Dont even try to justify murder with "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" bullshit.
Does that mean I should or should not mention all the terrorists Prime Ministers' of Israe?

Quote:
Until Palestine is willing to give up on it's theocratic goals,

Excuse me but theocratic when the sole Zionist claim to Palestine is theology? And as religious matters in Israel are governed by real Jews that is a theocracy. And fake Jews, non-observant are just using it as political cover for their theft and war crimes. 

What Palestinian asshole blew this fucking smoke up your ass? Certainly not a Palestinian individual I would support. Now you are equating the Palestinian cause to the French resistance?

Wow are you deluded.

THE PEOPLE who lob rockets into Israel and the people who blow up unarmed people CANNOT nor should ever be equated to the RIGHTFUL resistance the French had against the Nazis.

You are out of your mind thinking the two are remotely comparable.

Palestine is not ruled by secular pluralists. It is ruled by people who think infidels and their supporters deserve death. And the minority of Palestinians who DO want a secular pluralistic government are drowned out by these nuts you wrongfully support who do drowned out the voices of the secular among them.

I'll tell you what, you love Palestine so much, move there and then attempt to say to anyone on the street that Allah doesn't exist and see how fast you get arrested beaten up or killed. Then come back here and cry about the big bad Jews.

Get Hamas to renounce use of violence, get them to write a constitution that protects religious and political minorities. Good luck with that. I am sure that will happen when pink unicorns exist. But since that is all the leadership they have now, my suggestion to the Palestinians is to get rid of the leadership that promotes violence.

"They stole my land"

And exactly how is acting out in violence against unarmed civilians convincing Israel to stop taking more land? If anything they are saying to themselves, "Why should we respect the rights of people who act like barbarians"?

You can justify anything you want, it still doesn't change the fact that Palestine is not pluralistic in its government and would not value individual rights. So whatever wrong Israel IS doing, is an EXCUSE to ignore the internal problems you could solve so that you could take the moral high ground.

But as I see it now, Palestine doesn't have the moral high ground using it's  current tactics. You claiming Israel has no morals shouldn't justify who you side with having no morals. Your doing the stupid thing of justifying their bad acts to do bad acts yourself.

If you truly believe Israel is the bad guy, then "tit for tat" which HAS NOT WORKED AND WILL NOT WORK, should be a useless tactic. Maybe you should try something else because the violence IS NOT working.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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You really have your head up

You really have your head up your butt.

You falsely accused me of the attitude that Israel's shit don't stink, I never said it didn't.

I have admitted to the horrible history conducted even in America by it's citizens on minorities in it's history. I am completely embarrassed by Bush's reign. It pisses me off to this day that Andrew Jackson who was a genocidal thug was our president and is still on our money.

But you want me to throw the baby out with the bath water and make this entire situation black and white and IT IS NOT.

 

Not every Israeli agrees with everything its government does, nor is every reaction they have to Palestinian violence justified.  That does not mean I support lobbing rockets into Israel nor do I support suicide bombers.

But when Palestinians lob rockets into Israel and blow up unarmed people HOW do you think Israel is going to react to that? You say you want them to give a shit about  rights but Palestine does NOTHING to show they deserve any. You are deluded if you think violence on the part of Palestinians is working.

The violence has worked so well hasn't it? So well that Israel doesn't give a shit about property rights or boarders. THE VIOLENCE IS GIVING ISRAEL EVEN MORE EXCUSE NOT TO GIVE A SHIT.

DONT let their bad behavior be an excuse to behave badly yourself. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And do not be fooled in thinking that if Israel suddenly caved in and gave into every demand of the Palestinian leadership, that suddenly Palestine would become a model westernized pluralistic society, it would not. It would become another Iran or Saudi Arabia.

So once again, the only Palestinians individuals who will get my support and respect are the ones who demand and end to the violence. And despite what you think I am perfectly capable and do often blast Israel for it's behavor. Neither side has my blind support, and neither get my absolute support.

Israel does only in one respect get my support. It IS  a westernized modern society. But, just like Americas history, it too has plenty of black eyes on it's history that it SHOULD be embarrassed about and ashamed of.

You are not going to get me to side with any group that WOULD if given the chance, set up mob rule by vote and a theocracy, and that is what Hammas would do if given a nation.

Israel is no saint, but it is not living in a Muslim Dark Ages like Palestine is.

You are NOT going to make this an all or nothing either or proposition with me. AND you are absolutely nuts to compare Hammas with the French resistance.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Hey A-nony

 

Do you believe jews ever lived in what the Romans called Judea? Do you realise the great mosque is built on top of a jewish temple? Do you think the diaspora happened over a couple of hundred years or is made up?

Genetics clearly show that Jews, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese are all from one ancestral genetic lineage - some jewish people have more european dna but there's still an obvious connection dating to the diaspora.

My personal opinion is that there should be a single nation combining Israel and Palestine but we all know the chances of that are zero. I don't like the situation as it is. I've always thought the jews should have bought some uninhabited island or land - something no one had any claim to or interest in - and founded a new nation there. It would have been much less hassle even if it was an even more pestilent shit hole than Israel was in the 1940s. I think a bit of Western Australia was offered as a home site after WW2 - the Kimberley Plan - but the deal wasn't taken up and was opposed by the U.S. which suggested Palestine.

What's your solution to what you obviously see as the jewish problem?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote: Do

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Do you believe jews ever lived in what the Romans called Judea? Do you realise the great mosque is built on top of a jewish temple? Do you think the diaspora happened over a couple of hundred years or is made up?

Genetics clearly show that Jews, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese are all from one ancestral genetic lineage - some jewish people have more european dna but there's still an obvious connection dating to the diaspora.

My personal opinion is that there should be a single nation combining Israel and Palestine but we all know the chances of that are zero. I don't like the situation as it is. I've always thought the jews should have bought some uninhabited island or land - something no one had any claim to or interest in - and founded a new nation there. It would have been much less hassle even if it was an even more pestilent shit hole than Israel was in the 1940s. I think a bit of Western Australia was offered as a home site after WW2 - the Kimberley Plan - but the deal wasn't taken up and was opposed by the U.S. which suggested Palestine.

What's your solution to what you obviously see as the jewish problem?

This is what kills me about Noony, he thinks we simply blindly always say "suck the dick of Israel and fuck everyone else"

You've just said the same thing I did. I thought it was a bad idea for them to do what they did after WW2. And you are also correct in pointing out that this isn't just a beef that started in tne 19th and 20th centuries. That area has changed hands multiple times over the centuries. So the " he started it" and "I was here first" is bullshit, and I don't like it when either side tries to pull that shit.

To me fighting over past grudges doesn't help. And between the two parties, Israel much more reflects westernied pluralism. Palestine still seems to be stuck in an Islamic dark ages.

But as I said before, just because I lean toward's Israel because it is not a theocracy, does not mean it doesn't do horrible things. America too, with it's secular government, has done horrible things. But with western governments, there is much more of an opportunity to speak out against transgressions.

Like I said, if suddenly Hammass got it's own government and ruled Palestine as a nation, it would not lend protection to dissenting views or other religions. It would set up a theocracy.

So my challenge is to the secular Palestinians to reject that goal and prove through the demand for non violence and protection of pluralism. That is the only way I can support Palestine.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Atheistextremist wrote: Do

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Do you believe jews ever lived in what the Romans called Judea? Do you realise the great mosque is built on top of a jewish temple? Do you think the diaspora happened over a couple of hundred years or is made up?

Genetics clearly show that Jews, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese are all from one ancestral genetic lineage - some jewish people have more european dna but there's still an obvious connection dating to the diaspora.

My personal opinion is that there should be a single nation combining Israel and Palestine but we all know the chances of that are zero. I don't like the situation as it is. I've always thought the jews should have bought some uninhabited island or land - something no one had any claim to or interest in - and founded a new nation there. It would have been much less hassle even if it was an even more pestilent shit hole than Israel was in the 1940s. I think a bit of Western Australia was offered as a home site after WW2 - the Kimberley Plan - but the deal wasn't taken up and was opposed by the U.S. which suggested Palestine.

What's your solution to what you obviously see as the jewish problem?

Another thing, I do think the two state solution IS a bad idea. I think that plays too much into the religious utopias both try to lay stake on the land about. But IF Palestine insists on being a nation, the only way like I said I can support such an idea is that they set up a government that protects the rights of all, including political and religious minorities. Right now, I don't see that happening.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I don't think it will ever resolve

Brian37 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Do you believe jews ever lived in what the Romans called Judea? Do you realise the great mosque is built on top of a jewish temple? Do you think the diaspora happened over a couple of hundred years or is made up?

Genetics clearly show that Jews, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese are all from one ancestral genetic lineage - some jewish people have more european dna but there's still an obvious connection dating to the diaspora.

My personal opinion is that there should be a single nation combining Israel and Palestine but we all know the chances of that are zero. I don't like the situation as it is. I've always thought the jews should have bought some uninhabited island or land - something no one had any claim to or interest in - and founded a new nation there. It would have been much less hassle even if it was an even more pestilent shit hole than Israel was in the 1940s. I think a bit of Western Australia was offered as a home site after WW2 - the Kimberley Plan - but the deal wasn't taken up and was opposed by the U.S. which suggested Palestine.

What's your solution to what you obviously see as the jewish problem?

Another thing, I do think the two state solution IS a bad idea. I think that plays too much into the religious utopias both try to lay stake on the land about. But IF Palestine insists on being a nation, the only way like I said I can support such an idea is that they set up a government that protects the rights of all, including political and religious minorities. Right now, I don't see that happening.

 

 

 

Between Israel and Palestine. I think the nations with immediate borders do nothing in the way of humanitarian support. Palestinians who have lived in Syria for 65 years are still not Syrian citizens - even if they were born there. 

I think the initial partition was the big mistake. Jews and Arabs lived in the area in villages side by side for thousands of years after the collapse of the Roman Republic with no problem - this should have continued and been expanded upon after 1945 but the Palestinian Arabs rejected the idea - not surprisingly.  

That whole galvanising post-Haulocaust Zionism was so subjective it failed to take into account the fact kicking 250,000 Palestinians out of the new nation of Israel was no different to the establishment of the post-pogram Pale in Russia and has some extremely unfortunate echoes of the Warsaw Ghetto about it. Nevertheless, the Israelis aren't guilty of genocide by any stretch of the imagination. The numbers of Palestinians have gone from 250,000 to 3.5 million in 65 years. That's empirical data right there.

I think Jews do have an ancestral connection to that place that is genetically identical to that of the Palestinians. I think the Merneptah establishes the existence of Israel back to 1200BC. I sometimes wonder if a bunch of Australian Aborigines or Native Americans were dispersed at some past point and their culture, residual population and genetic heritage, as well as past relationship to a place were clearly established, would we claim they were not Aboriginal, not Native American and refuse to acknowledge them? 

Interestingly, my mother was a christian missionary in Lebanon during partitioning and she sided with the Lebanese. Villages split in half, parents separated from children. It was a traumatic event that can't be justified. Moral consistency makes certain demands. But it makes these demands on both sides. Israel's muslim neighbours are hardly models of restraint and toleration and their stated goal of the destruction and murder of all Israelis is hardly encouraging. The fact there are 1.5 million muslim Palestinians living in Israel also tells a story. Jews living in Muslim nations tend to be dead.  

It's an irritating subject to think about. The Middle East is like the worst sort of hemorrhoid. It hurts so much to touch that you can never really clean up.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Brian37 wrote:Another thing,

Brian37 wrote:

Another thing, I do think the two state solution IS a bad idea. I think that plays too much into the religious utopias both try to lay stake on the land about. But IF Palestine insists on being a nation, the only way like I said I can support such an idea is that they set up a government that protects the rights of all, including political and religious minorities. Right now, I don't see that happening.

The rights of all, that's the trick. But it is safe to say aloud things like atheism or secularity? Wouldn't it be more effective to say "freedom of belief"? Of course it means exactly the same thing, but it may sound better to religious ears. Get them drunk with freedom and only later they may realize, what the freedom really means, a freedom also for things and people we don't like. 

I mean, you can be a staunch rational atheist as you like, but someone's got to play the good policeman.

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 I wish all the fundies

 

I wish all the fundies that support Israel would watch this video of their 'friends' the jews.

 

Jewish settler: we killed Jesus and we are proud of it

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Brian37 wrote:

Jesus cristos on a cracker. I think it is STUPID to side with Palestine based on a childish idea of "virtue of the oppressed" and the emotional appeal of the "underdog" story.

It was the zionists playing the underdog card that got the US entangled with Israel in the first place. I agree that mistake should not be repeated.

However this is not an issue of virtue. If it were the US could never have supported the murderous cause of zionism.

Rather it is a matter of international law which, as a result of WWII, modified Hague V with the the fourth Geneva convention. The occupied have an absolute right to kill the citizens of the occupying power when that occupatoin is unlawful as they were during WWII. The right is absolute and without limitation or condition.

Quote:
The leadership of Palestine isn't JUST basing their actions on "occupation", the are basing it on non-Muslims being apostates deserving of death.

Whatever word you mean it is clearly not apostate. I cannot comment on this statement beyond pointing out it is both meaningless and nonsensical as stated.

Quote:
This isn't the Native Americans simply saying "get off my land whity", The Natives at first welcomed the newbies UNTIL they started pushing them off their land, and the Natives who fought back were not basing it on religion, but "occupation"

You also need to look into American history for what really happened. That is not what happened.

Quote:
Palestines position is not merely "get off my land". They hate jews as much as Hitler did. Maybe not all in Palestine, but most certainly far to many in their leadership. That hatred deserves absolutely no respect.

Whatever you wish to call it, the occupation is criminal. Nothing justifies the criminal nature of the occupation. Choosing to use the faddish buzzword "hate" has no merit or bearing upon the fact of the ciminal occupation.

Quote:
Israel's problem is that isn't that it is westernized, and by no means is it a dictatorship, to call it such is absurd.

Are you going to try to try to tell me the occupying IDF in the West Bank is responsible to the elected representatives of the Palestinian people? If not then it is clearly a military dictatorship. It is what it is. You can point to the Palestine's vichy government but it is still a military dictatorship. The people have no say in who rules them or how they are ruled. They have no rights. What the military says and does has the force of law.

How can you say it is not a military dictatorship? The truth is what it is. The truth cannot be hate.

Quote:
My problem with Israel in it's history was that the Jews took some very bad advice from the west after WW2 in wanting to move into a crack infested neighborhood and why? Because they wanted a land their fictional god promised them. But the nuts that control Palestine are far worse in merely saying "Allah gave them this land" in the fact that .

You also need to learn the history of Palestine and of the zionists. It is amazing how many wrong ideas you have expressed in so few words. Jews decided on Palestine in the 1890s. The first advocacy of the use of deadly force to expel the natives that I have found was in 1917. It is not in question it was formally advocated by the Brit Jabotinsky in the Iron Wall. The present ruling Likud traces it political position to Jabotinsky's advocacy of the use of mass murder to make it possible to steal the land from its lawful owners. It is also not in questoin that his Revisionist movement took over mainstream zionism in the 1920s. It is also not in question the zionists pioneered the use of car bombs in Palestinians markets in that decade. There is much more for you about the subject should you ever take the time to learn.

Quote:
If you want to say occupation is bad, I agree. But you are not going to get me to side with Palestine when it clearly goes beyond mere "you took my land" when their leadership is clearly bent on religious and ethnic genocide of Jews(not that they can, but they would if they could)

I did not say it was bad. I said it was criminal. I said because it is criminal the occupied have the unfettered right to kill the bastards.

Quote:
SO you want me to blindly support Palestine simply because I don't agree with Israel's actions all the time. Sorry, cant and wont do that. They are pluralistic and far more secular and a reflection of a civil society than the Muslim theocracy that controls Palestine.

The women who have to ride on the back of the bus in Israel would certainly disagree with you as did the American woman who was assaulted for refusing to do so.

Before you object to my using the majority Orthodox in Israel to characterize all Israelis you should stop trying to characterize the Palestinians by the worst stereotypes you can come up with. Everyone knows Palestine is a democracy even though they are suffering from a coup lead by Fatah. You should know the oldest continuous democracy in the middle east is Lebanon since 1943. That is five years before Israel and ten years before the appearance of people dumb enough to say Israel is the only democracy.

And it does take more than a few weeks reading Haaretz or the Jerusalem post to learn Israeli society most closely resembles that of the US in the post civil war south, as backward, as militant and as racist, virulently so. Israeli laws openly discriminate against non-Jews and making discrimination a matter of law is by defintion Apartheid. The rabid racism in housing discrimination is worse than it ever was in the US south.

So yes, one can say Israel is no better than some middle eastern country but as Israel claims to be a modern democracy the only valid comparison is with a modern democracy.

Quote:
If any Palestinian wants my support then they need to fucking knock of the political violence. They would get what they want very quickly through non violent protest and a change to accept the existence of Jews, not just there, but all over the world.

Unless the occupation troops the Palestnians ended the political violence years ago. They have openly declared they are foregoing their right of resistance in order to obain their state free of Israeli control.

Quote:
ISLAM is still stuck in the past collectively, Jews are not. I am not going to side with bronze age dickheads simply because the adults(Israel, fucks up by making things worse)

Stereotypes are really dumb. The most populous Muslim country in the world also probably accounts for more than half the components in your computer.

Nor should one generalize to "jews" as Jewish amulets, curses, and protections from the evil eye sold be rabbis in Israel is very well known. Those are Orthodox Jews or, as they say, real Jews not those apostate (correct usage) Conservative and Reform fake Jews. Not observant then not a Jew. It applies in religious law in Israel. And as the Israeli government pays the salaries of rabbis and such you are going to have to tell me how that does not pass at least one reasonable defintion of a theocracy.

Quote:
You want my support, then get the fuckwad theocratic nuts to give up on their idea that Jews deserve death and give up on violence. Until then, they should not be shocked in  the least that Israel responds, even if the response is over kill.

Whatever economic problems and poverty that exists in Palestine cannot be helped by those in the neighborhood rejecting pluralism and outsiders.  Neither Palestine or Israel are completely innocent in this mess, but Israel reflects far more a modern society than Palestine does.

Again, if they want my help and support, then they need to stop their bullshit "Allah will kick your ass". They need to climb out of the Dark Ages first.

I have read more knowledgeable material direct from the Israeli propaganda ministry than you have posted. You really do need to read up on the subject.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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1. Israel is going to meet

1. Israel is going to meet its maker? Don't they already know the US and the British?

2. In other threads you have equated Zionists to all Jews. When did you back off of that position?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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EXC wrote:
I wish all the fundies that support Israel would watch this video of their 'friends' the jews.

 Jewish settler: we killed Jesus and we are proud of it

Jesus was a Galilean. The Judeans conquered the Galileans and forced them to convert to Judaism around 140BC according to the priest Josephus. Jews have never liked it when the people they force to convert get uppity.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:
...

Luminon, you have to be out of your mind to think that the Taliban wants freedom. NO they want to be free to be dictators to their own.  That is not freedom, that is freedom to dictate.

 

I think we all got the point here. The Taliban and Israel are against freedom for the Palstinians. The only difference is Israel is profitting from its tyranny over the Palestians. Follow the money.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

AND ANOTHER THING

"You started it" is a bad argument. I might agree moving there after WW2 was a bad Idea. But blaming me, for example, for slavery when I wasn't born then, or saying "lets give the land back to the Native Americans", is fucking absurd.

What is done is done and Jews are not going anywhere. Just as it would be absurd for a black person to come up to me and demand that I pay for what happened before I was born. ...

For the record the Indians signed treaties and ceded territorial sovereignty claims to the US government. They are called peace treaties. A peace treaty ceding SOVEREIGNTY claims over territory is what Israel wants from the Palestinians. Sovereignty is not ownership. Individual ownership remains regardless of sovereignty. Private property can only be purchased or stolen. Jews chose to steal it from individual Palestinians. Palestinians want their property back.

Palestinians are only demanding the same standard of justice from Israel as Israel demands for Jews for actions related to WWII. Justice for one is justice for the other. There are no exceptions.

The property still exists in Israel just as it does in Germany, Poland, Hungary and other countries where Israel sponsors claims of reparations for Jews in the name of the justice it refuses to consider for its Palestinians victims.

Unlike wages property is heritable. Israel demands justice for the descendants of Jews who lost property just as the descendants of the Palestinians demand the same justice for what Jews stole from their parents and grandparents.

You seem to be terribly confused about this subject.


 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

If Germany and Japan can change so can Palestine, but do not fucking ask me to shed a tear for their leadership who is bent on genocide and WOULD NOT value individual rights if we did give them the borders and nation they wanted.

Until they rid themselves of their Dark Age leadership thugs, Palestine will continue causing pain to their own people, even the secular Muslims who are merely victims of merely being born in the wrong place.

EVEN IF Jews suddenly left, there may not be war in that region, but any Palestinian nation would not reflect the west and would look like the dictatorships like Iran and Saudi Arabia. I don't see how you would want those living conditions for any human. It certainly  would be fine for those in power, but it would suck for any minorities or objectors in such a case.

Not only do you enjoy indulging malicious stereotypes but claim the ability to prophecise as to what would happen if.

Lets review the bidding. The first Palestinian riot for self-government over the Sykes-Picot betrayal was in 1924. Of course it was connected with the British tyrants actually bringing in foreigners who were from the dregs of backwater eastern Europe* with the promise of giving them Palestine. Keep in mind the Brits were also running a dictatorship in Palestine. In the 20s the foreigners, an increasing number of them illegal aliens, began to implement the terrorism campaign against the Palestinians as part of the Revisionist agenda.

The Palestinians were forever refused any form of self-government by the Brits, the people who openly discussed their natural fitness to rule the world and who found fault with the Germans for not quite making that same claim. BTW: Between the Brits and the French they had enslaved over 1/3 of the world's population. Even after the Lebanese were permitted a self-governing democracy in 1943 the Palestinians were still refused.

Then another unelected group, the UN arrives and dictates the terms of their future to the Palestinians. A ragged band of mostly illegal alien jewish terrorists were to be given half of Palestine even though, counting the illegals, they were barely 1/5 the population and owned maybe 5% of the land. And then the jewish terrorists declare open season on the Palestinians to drive them out of all the land including that the UN was supposedly "giving" them -- it was not the UN's to give. And of course the UN could only grant the right to form a government. It could not in any way grant ownership of the land.

Ever since then we have had a constant barrage of zionist lies and propaganda deliberately misrepresenting the well know facts of history. I will charitably assume you were taken in by it and do not know the things you are saying are false.

---

*Dregs as "A zionist is a Jew who collects money from another Jew to send a third Jew to Palestine. Eastern Europe was the only place to find Jews poor enough and dumb enough to go.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Luminon wrote:

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

I agree. 
Unfortunately, there is a bit more to know about USA, who made their army 3rd best in the world.

No, I don't hate Jews.

If Judaism were Zionism antisemitism would be a moral imperative. One can look at Israel as an example of what Jews are like when have political power. One can see why even the Romans could not tolerate the genital mutilating, backward savages.

Quote:
They have some good musicians (I mean electronic music, not klezmer) The problem is with Israeli politicians and military leaders.

The trick is, everyone need justice, freedom and peace. Everyone, even the Taliban, Hamas, all the Palestinians and citizens of Iraq or Tibet. The invading force portrays them as unmanageable troublemakers asking for more soldiers to be shipped in their land. But you'd have to be pretty much brainwashed by American Jewish-owned media to believe that. 

The military is exactly what one expects a tin pot militarist country to have. It can't project its military power much beyond its borders and can't fight a serious war that lasts more than a month without its economy collapsing so their military is obviously mostly a waste.

US support of it is solely the result of jewish lobbying. Israel is a welfare state. It has a free medical system. Israel can cut the frills and pay for its own military if it really needs like it has.

But then, Israel has always been a Shnorrer nation.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

What Palestinian asshole blew this fucking smoke up your ass? Certainly not a Palestinian individual I would support. Now you are equating the Palestinian cause to the French resistance?

Of course there are differences. The German occupation troops were under strict orders to behave as gentlemen and did so. The occupation was lawful even under the terms of the subsequent Geneva IV convention. Resistance was unlawful during WWII while it is lawful today. Neither is true of the Israeli occupation. In addition there were not hundreds of thousands of criminal German civilans terrorizing and stealing from the French. There are a lot of other differences but by any reading of real history the French had it much better than the Palestinians. Hell, serveral times more Frenchmen were killed by the "good guys" liberating them than by the Germans conquering them.

You really need to learn real history some day. It is in the history books. It is not on the History Channel.

Quote:
Wow are you deluded.

Perhaps but I am talking about real history which apparently something alien to you.

Quote:
THE PEOPLE who lob rockets into Israel and the people who blow up unarmed people CANNOT nor should ever be equated to the RIGHTFUL resistance the French had against the Nazis.

International law does not put any limits upon the method or manner of resistance. You may not like that. You should lobby to change the law instead of bemoaning as it is. That said, the folks in Gaza ALWAYS said they would end the rocket fire if Israel's illegal blockade would end. Of course Israel refused to cease being a criminal nation.

It is always good to see what Israel was complaining about from the rockets. http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/GAZA-pics/GAZA-2/index.html People were suffering from shock right and left. Israel's response was http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/GAZA-pics/index.html which I assume you think was justly deserved punishing to daring to have a human reaction against the jewish Herrnvolk.  

Quote:
You are out of your mind thinking the two are remotely comparable.

The pictures show otherwise. I know you do not like facts to intrude into your fantasy world but really. How can you not know the facts in this matter? It is in all the papers outside the US. What kind of unamericans would keep them out of the US news?

Quote:
Palestine is not ruled by secular pluralists. It is ruled by people who think infidels and their supporters deserve death. And the minority of Palestinians who DO want a secular pluralistic government are drowned out by these nuts you wrongfully support who do drowned out the voices of the secular among them.

You are either just plain and simply ignorant or are knowingly disengenous. BUT perhaps I am wrong. Produce the PHYSICAL evidence in support of your claim about them. If it is true it should not take you more than five minutes to google all the evidence you need. But if you cannot produce the physical evidence then we are back to those two possibilities. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:Do

Atheistextremist wrote:
Do you believe jews ever lived in what the Romans called Judea? Do you realise the great mosque is built on top of a jewish temple? Do you think the diaspora happened over a couple of hundred years or is made up?

Obviously there were Jews in Judea. Josephus says they took their name for Judea. Your question is no different that asking if I believe Judeans lived in Judea. Sort of a no-brainer question that.

As a matter of fact no one knows where the Herodian temple was located. It is nothing but religious superstition saying it is under ONE OF THE mosques.

Diaspora has a lot of semantic baggage. What we do know is there is  no evidence of any forced expulsion from Judea. The claim that was is something Judeans/Jews made up early on as it was debunked in the 5th c. AD. Of course if you can produce physical evidence of forced expulsion you should publish it as no one else knows of any.

Quote:
Genetics clearly show that Jews, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese are all from one ancestral genetic lineage - some jewish people have more european dna but there's still an obvious connection dating to the diaspora.
Only Sephardic jews. The gene is only found among Ashkenazi's such as Cohens which is like the rabbis imported by the Khazars to teach the religion.

Quote:
My personal opinion is that there should be a single nation combining Israel and Palestine but we all know the chances of that are zero. I don't like the situation as it is. I've always thought the jews should have bought some uninhabited island or land - something no one had any claim to or interest in - and founded a new nation there. It would have been much less hassle even if it was an even more pestilent shit hole than Israel was in the 1940s. I think a bit of Western Australia was offered as a home site after WW2 - the Kimberley Plan - but the deal wasn't taken up and was opposed by the U.S. which suggested Palestine.

What's your solution to what you obviously see as the jewish problem?

Palestine is a geographic region and has been since at least the 5th c. BC. Israel is mostly in Palestine. So is Lebanon for that matter.

In fact in 1934 or so Stalin did create a republic for the Jews in Siberia. They didn't like the location. That was back before the CPSU power struggle with the KVD and Red Army and subsequent purges. In any event it is still there although I can't say Russia would still admit foreigners to live there. They also refused a British offer of a colony in Uganda. They had decided on Palestine and nothing else in the 1890s.

Zionism is a perhaps the most public and success conspiracy in history.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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.

Atheistextremist wrote:
Between Israel and Palestine. I think the nations with immediate borders do nothing in the way of humanitarian support. Palestinians who have lived in Syria for 65 years are still not Syrian citizens - even if they were born there.

So far as I have been able to determine the US and England are the only countries in the world that grant citizenship by virtue of birth in the country. The position is quite simple. The refugee own property in Israel. That Israel refuses to let them live on it is not the problem of the Government of Syria. Further the UN did take responsibility for them early on. It is UN inaction which is left them as refugees. It is not like Syria is a rich country or anything.

Quote:
I think the initial partition was the big mistake. Jews and Arabs lived in the area in villages side by side for thousands of years after the collapse of the Roman Republic with no problem - this should have continued and been expanded upon after 1945 but the Palestinian Arabs rejected the idea - not surprisingly. 

Excuse me but by definition Jews only lived in Judea, Galileans in Galilee and so forth. The Palestinians are first mentioned in history in the mid 5th c. BC. The Judeans do not appear in history until the 1st c. BC, 67 BC to be exact. The Muslims not Arabs are simply Judeans and Galileans who converted to Islam either directly or via Christianity. As the Judeans call the Christians Galileans it is reasonable to a large fraction converted to Christianity first.

Quote:
That whole galvanising post-Haulocaust Zionism was so subjective it failed to take into account the fact kicking 250,000 Palestinians out

Kicked out 750,000. 250,000 were able to remain. This was the largest expulsion. There were mass expulsionsin 1967 and 1973. Israel is always trying to people to use a smaller number than the official UN number -- WAHH! The UN hates us!

Quote:
of the new nation of Israel was no different to the establishment of the post-pogram Pale in Russia and has some extremely unfortunate echoes of the Warsaw Ghetto about it. Nevertheless, the Israelis aren't guilty of genocide by any stretch of the imagination. The numbers of Palestinians have gone from 250,000 to 3.5 million in 65 years. That's empirical data right there.

The word genocide was invented in 1944 without a definition. It was given a legal definition in 1948. From the treaty

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed
with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or
religious groups, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III

The following acts shall be punishable:

a. Genocide;
b. Conspiracy to commit genocide;
c. Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
d. Attempt to commit genocide;
e. Complicity in genocide.

BTW: The Nazis can only be accused of IIId, attempted genocide.

You will also note the "in whole or in part". Is mass expulsion cause by mass murders considered mental harm and therefore a genocide?

Now simply because people are sloppy and do not use the legal definition does not make their usage valid in the face of the legal decision. Jews have no copyright or trademark on the word.

Quote:
I think Jews do have an ancestral connection to that place that is genetically identical to that of the Palestinians. I think the Merneptah establishes the existence of Israel back to 1200BC.

No it does not. It only means "israel" because believers want it to. There are two mutually exclusives ways different believers arrive at that name. Even if by some miracle that is the word, Israel Finkelstein perhaps the mosf famous Israeli archaeologist has said he has no idea what it might have meant in that context.

There is in fact no archaeological evidence of any place or people ever called Israel that might match anything in the Septuagint. Therefore it cannot be considered anything other than an invention of the Septuagint. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Leba

 

ScienceDaily (May 9, 2000) — If a common heritage conferred peace, then perhaps the long history of conflict in the Middle East would have been resolved years ago. For, according to a new scientific study, Jews are the genetic brothers of Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, and they all share a common genetic lineage that stretches back thousands of years.


"Jews and Arabs are all really children of Abraham," says Harry Ostrer, M.D., Director of the Human Genetics Program at New York University School of Medicine, an author of the new study by an international team of researchers in the United States, Europe, and Israel. "And all have preserved their Middle Eastern genetic roots over 4,000 years," he says.

The researchers analyzed the Y chromosome, which is usually passed unchanged from father to son, of more than 1,000 men worldwide. Throughout human history, alterations have occurred in the sequence of chemical bases that make up the DNA in this so-called male chromosome, leaving variations that can be pinpointed with modern genetic techniques. Related populations carry the same specific variations. In this way, scientists can track descendants of large populations and determine their common ancestors.

Specific regions of the Y chromosome were analyzed in 1,371 men from 29 worldwide populations, including Jews and non-Jews from the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe.

The study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world.

The study also revealed that despite the complex history of Jewish migration in the Diaspora (the time since 556 B.C. when Jews migrated out of Palestine), Jewish communities have generally not intermixed with non-Jewish populations. If they had, then Jewish men from different regions of the world would not share the same genetic signatures in their Y chromosome.

"Because ancient Jewish law states that Jewish religious affiliation is assigned maternally, our study afforded the opportunity to assess the contribution of non-Jewish men to present-day Jewish genetic diversity," says Michael Hammer, Ph.D., from the University of Arizona, Tucson, who is the lead author of the new study. "It was surprising to see how significant the Middle Eastern genetic signal was in Jewish men from different communities in the Diaspora," he says.

 

 

The authors of this study are: Dr. Ostrer from NYU School of Medicine; Michael F. Hammer, Alan J. Redd, Elizabeth T. Wood, M. Roxane Bonner, Hamdi Jarjanazil, and Tanya Karafet from the University of Arizona, Tucson; Silvana Santachlara-Benerecetti, University of Pavia, Italy; Ariella Oppenheim, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel; Mark A. Jobling, University of Leicester, England; Trefor Jenkins, University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa; and Batsheva Bonne-Tamar, Tel Aviv University, Israel.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote: 

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

ScienceDaily (May 9, 2000) — If a common heritage conferred peace, then perhaps the long history of conflict in the Middle East would have been resolved years ago. For, according to a new scientific study, Jews are the genetic brothers of Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, and they all share a common genetic lineage that stretches back thousands of years.


 

Funny.  I think relatives are prone to much nastier fights than total strangers.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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A_Nony_Mouse
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There must be a god to send me these posts

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

ScienceDaily (May 9, 2000) — If a common heritage conferred peace, then perhaps the long history of conflict in the Middle East would have been resolved years ago. For, according to a new scientific study, Jews are the genetic brothers of Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, and they all share a common genetic lineage that stretches back thousands of years.


"Jews and Arabs are all really children of Abraham," says Harry Ostrer, M.D., Director of the Human Genetics Program at New York University School of Medicine, an author of the new study by an international team of researchers in the United States, Europe, and Israel. "And all have preserved their Middle Eastern genetic roots over 4,000 years," he says.

Science Daily is journalism majors but generally not to bad. However anything that refers to the mythical Abraham as though a real person is worthless to rational people. Sneaking in 4000 years under that nonsense merely compounds it. First is opens with a broad assertion of similarity which is established but then focusses upon the Y chromosome and goes on to talk about self-declared Jews.

Quote:
The researchers analyzed the Y chromosome, which is usually passed unchanged from father to son, of more than 1,000 men worldwide. Throughout human history, alterations have occurred in the sequence of chemical bases that make up the DNA in this so-called male chromosome, leaving variations that can be pinpointed with modern genetic techniques. Related populations carry the same specific variations. In this way, scientists can track descendants of large populations and determine their common ancestors.

Now it seems we are a supposed to focus on the zionist invention of the Jewish people while not noticing the only way to open with the first paragraph and lead into this discussion is if "arabs" have this same gene.

An unbeliever should not be distracted by the blind religious faith of the "researcher" and come to the obvious conclusion of his claimed research, that Jews are a subset of the Arabs and not separate at all. Then we can ask the legitimate question as to how Arabs found their way into eastern Europe to become Russians and Poles and the like.

Note here the only possible meaning of "arab" are the three Arabias of ancient time, Felix, Petra and Deserta not out definitions which mean either geographically people from the Arabilan peninsula or politically from Saudi Arabia. (I have not been able to decipher the geography of the three ancient Arabias from ancient maps. If anyone knows of a source by someone who has I will appreciate a link.)

Quote:
Specific regions of the Y chromosome were analyzed in 1,371 men from 29 worldwide populations, including Jews and non-Jews from the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe.

The study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world.

Now we are back to the generic connection from the hills of eastern Palestine all the way around the rim of the Arabian peninsula to Iran as well as the post Islamic migrations north into Iraq less the Kurds. But that Kohenim gene is still in play for Jews only instead for all Arabs which includes Jews.

Quote:
The study also revealed that despite the complex history of Jewish migration in the Diaspora (the time since 556 B.C. when Jews migrated out of Palestine), Jewish communities have generally not intermixed with non-Jewish populations. If they had, then Jewish men from different regions of the world would not share the same genetic signatures in their Y chromosome.

Fact is that "migration" is found only a book of tales that first appears in history in the 1st c. BC. The absence of mixing is tossed in here even though the subject under discussion is ALL Arabs with a small minority who stuck with the Yahweh cult.

Quote:
"Because ancient Jewish law states that Jewish religious affiliation is assigned maternally, our study afforded the opportunity to assess the contribution of non-Jewish men to present-day Jewish genetic diversity," says Michael Hammer, Ph.D., from the University of Arizona, Tucson, who is the lead author of the new study. "It was surprising to see how significant the Middle Eastern genetic signal was in Jewish men from different communities in the Diaspora," he says.

As with the "diaspora" this "law" first appears in history in the 1st c. BC although Josephus traces it as history back to the mid 2nd c. BC. To put this in perspective what the study supposedly says about the small subset of Arabs, the Jews, obviously applies to all Arabs else the major component of this study is inapplicable. 

Quote:
The authors of this study are: Dr. Ostrer from NYU School of Medicine; Michael F. Hammer, Alan J. Redd, Elizabeth T. Wood, M. Roxane Bonner, Hamdi Jarjanazil, and Tanya Karafet from the University of Arizona, Tucson; Silvana Santachlara-Benerecetti, University of Pavia, Italy; Ariella Oppenheim, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel; Mark A. Jobling, University of Leicester, England; Trefor Jenkins, University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa; and Batsheva Bonne-Tamar, Tel Aviv University, Israel.

Obviously there is a god. I was given clear evidence that what applies to all Arabs is discussed in a way to support the zionist invention of the jewish people when in fact what is says applies to all Arabs not just those of the Yahweh cult. Further it identifies the Y Cohenim marker as an Arab marker in general rather than unique to members of one antiquated cult.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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More Zionist inventions...

The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

 

The Times recently carried an unusual report on an Israeli Jew (Tsvi Misinai, a retired computer expert) who's hoping to prove that Palestinians are descended from Jews. Apparently, he thinks that proving this will help to stop the bloodshed. His idea is that modern Jews are descended from emigration in the first few centuries of the Christian era. The Jews who stayed put in Palestine converted to Islam, and became Palestinian Arabs. There's hope that genetic tests might be able to prove this.

Well, there is good news and bad news on that score.

The good news is that the genetics of Arabs and Jews have been pretty extensively researched. The classic study dates to 2000, from a team lead by Michael Hammer of University of Arizona. They looked at Y-chromosome haplotypes - this is the genetic material passed from father to son down the generations.

What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).

Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants. They conclude:

 

We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula...

So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable.



Women are a bit more tricky

...


Up until last year, the matrilineal heritage of Jews also seemed pretty clear. Analysis of elements in mitochondrial DNA (which is passed from mother to daughter) seemed to show that Jewish populations around Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East were derived from at least 8 unrelated 'founding mothers'.

Where they came from wasn't clear, but the most likely explanation was that they were from local populations that bred with immigrant Jewish males. Their offspring became absorbed into the Jewish community.

In 2008, a more sophisticated analysis was published that made use of whole mitochondrial DNA sequences. They found no evidence for the genetic bottle necks that indicate founding mothers in the large Jewish populations. Instead, they found a complicated picture with a very diverse gene pool suggesting intermarriage both with local populations and other Jewish groups.

The overall conclusion is that the female Jewish line deviates a lot more from the Palestinian heritage than the male line, but the heritage is still there.

So that's the good news. Jews and Palestinian Arabs are blood brothers - although this close genetic relationship probably stems from pre-Judaic times, rather than any more recent conversion of Palestinian Jews to Islam.

And the bad news? Well, this basic story has been known for the best part of a decade now. But, perhaps unsurprisingly, it hasn't lead to the warring sides laying down their weapons and engaging in a group hug. This is a religious conflict, not a genetic one.

Mr Misinai is, sadly, on a hiding to nothing.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Trumpets did sound and the heavens opened and a voice said

computer types can't do science.

Atheistextremist wrote:

The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

The Times recently carried an unusual report on an Israeli Jew (Tsvi Misinai, a retired computer expert) who's hoping to prove that Palestinians are descended from Jews.

 

Descended? The previous article established Judeans, aka Jews, were a subset of Arabs.

It has never been a secret the Palestinians have been in the region we still call Palestine for at least 2500 years (per Herodotus) and were there before the Jews appeared in history. It has never been in question any group of them who were forced to adopt the Yahweh cult practices (as per Josephus) or were among those who invented the cult simply adopted other religions, Christianity for some and Islam for the majority.

Where in the well known and unquestioned facts does the word "descended" come from? From the only sources we have which qualify as real history the Judeans of the Yahweh cult appeared among the Palestinians. If one insists upon using the word descended the Jews descended from the Palestinians as the Palestinians were there first.

***

For the historical record socially/politcally in the 5th c. BC the Palestinians were the Palestinians of Syria (Herodotus) and the Syrians would have been part of Arabia Felix not what today we consider Arabia.

 

Another note. Not found in any Western or Jewish narrative are Jewish kingdoms on the east coast of the Red Sea. The only mention of them is found in the Koran.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Better off occupied?

Brian37 wrote:

 

And do not be fooled in thinking that if Israel suddenly caved in and gave into every demand of the Palestinian leadership, that suddenly Palestine would become a model westernized pluralistic society, it would not. It would become another Iran or Saudi Arabia.

 

 

It seems like the argument for Israel keeps coming back to the veiled assertion that Palestine deserves to be, or is at least better off being occupied because it's society is not as advanced and progressive as that of Israel.  Shouldn't small peoples have the right to self-determination, whatever they actually do determine?  If after liberation Palestine becomes a safe harbor for terrorists or engages in human rights violations or  any other illegal behavior, by all means we should take action to rectify that--it doesn't excuse--or even mitigate, imo--an ongoing occupation.  Democratic, pluralistic societies (adjective that are not inherently western, btw) are not born overnight, they develop--and occupation/oppression doesn't speed up the process at all but rather slows things down significantly.

As to Israel being such a progressive society, I was under the impression that the government had been incredibly conservative and reactionary for some time; can anyone out there more knowledgeable confirm or refute this?  I do not mean to imply that it is a totalitarian or terrorist regime.

"You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means."
--Inigo Montoya


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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
Do you believe jews ever lived in what the Romans called Judea? Do you realise the great mosque is built on top of a jewish temple? Do you think the diaspora happened over a couple of hundred years or is made up?

Obviously there were Jews in Judea. Josephus says they took their name for Judea. Your question is no different that asking if I believe Judeans lived in Judea. Sort of a no-brainer question that.

As a matter of fact no one knows where the Herodian temple was located. It is nothing but religious superstition saying it is under ONE OF THE mosques.

Diaspora has a lot of semantic baggage. What we do know is there is  no evidence of any forced expulsion from Judea. The claim that was is something Judeans/Jews made up early on as it was debunked in the 5th c. AD. Of course if you can produce physical evidence of forced expulsion you should publish it as no one else knows of any.

Quote:
Genetics clearly show that Jews, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese are all from one ancestral genetic lineage - some jewish people have more european dna but there's still an obvious connection dating to the diaspora.
Only Sephardic jews. The gene is only found among Ashkenazi's such as Cohens which is like the rabbis imported by the Khazars to teach the religion.

Quote:
My personal opinion is that there should be a single nation combining Israel and Palestine but we all know the chances of that are zero. I don't like the situation as it is. I've always thought the jews should have bought some uninhabited island or land - something no one had any claim to or interest in - and founded a new nation there. It would have been much less hassle even if it was an even more pestilent shit hole than Israel was in the 1940s. I think a bit of Western Australia was offered as a home site after WW2 - the Kimberley Plan - but the deal wasn't taken up and was opposed by the U.S. which suggested Palestine.

What's your solution to what you obviously see as the jewish problem?

Palestine is a geographic region and has been since at least the 5th c. BC. Israel is mostly in Palestine. So is Lebanon for that matter.

In fact in 1934 or so Stalin did create a republic for the Jews in Siberia. They didn't like the location. That was back before the CPSU power struggle with the KVD and Red Army and subsequent purges. In any event it is still there although I can't say Russia would still admit foreigners to live there. They also refused a British offer of a colony in Uganda. They had decided on Palestine and nothing else in the 1890s.

Zionism is a perhaps the most public and success conspiracy in history.

You are playing a stupid semantics game and favoring the underdog whom you think is completely innocent in all this. In the entire history of BOTH religions neither is.

As I said before "He started it" is bullshit and does nothing to solve the current problem BOTH contribute to.

You are out of your fucking mind if you think that there are no Muslims at all bent on the genocide of Jews. And you are out of your mind if you think all Jews are bent on the genocide of Muslims just because their government uses overkill to solve problems.

The problem IS caused by religion and until BOTH sides accept that, and deal with it, this conflict will continue.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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UpstateNYatheist

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

And do not be fooled in thinking that if Israel suddenly caved in and gave into every demand of the Palestinian leadership, that suddenly Palestine would become a model westernized pluralistic society, it would not. It would become another Iran or Saudi Arabia.

 

 

It seems like the argument for Israel keeps coming back to the veiled assertion that Palestine deserves to be, or is at least better off being occupied because it's society is not as advanced and progressive as that of Israel.  Shouldn't small peoples have the right to self-determination, whatever they actually do determine?  If after liberation Palestine becomes a safe harbor for terrorists or engages in human rights violations or  any other illegal behavior, by all means we should take action to rectify that--it doesn't excuse--or even mitigate, imo--an ongoing occupation.  Democratic, pluralistic societies (adjective that are not inherently western, btw) are not born overnight, they develop--and occupation/oppression doesn't speed up the process at all but rather slows things down significantly.

As to Israel being such a progressive society, I was under the impression that the government had been incredibly conservative and reactionary for some time; can anyone out there more knowledgeable confirm or refute this?  I do not mean to imply that it is a totalitarian or terrorist regime.

So if a tribe in Africa or South America is into canibalism we should put up with it? If a nation of Muslims want to oppress their women and minorities we should put up with it?

I would agree that one cannot save the world, but when any tribe or nation's backwards crap infects others I think we have every right to react.

Palestine if it wants "self determination" has to get with the modern world and stop living in a theocratic past.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37