The part of the brain used by people who can "see like a bat" has been identified by researchers in Canada.

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The part of the brain used by people who can "see like a bat" has been identified by researchers in Canada.

Some blind people have learned to echolocate by making clicking noises and listening to the returning echoes.

A study of two such people, published in PLoS ONE, showed a part of the brain usually associated with sight was activated when listening to echoes.

Action for Blind People said further research could improve the way the technique is taught.

Bats and dolphins bounce sound waves off their surroundings and by listening to the echoes can "see" the world around them.

Some blind humans have also trained themselves to do this, allowing them to explore cities, cycle and play sports.

Brain scan

Researchers looked at two patients who use echolocation every day. EB, aged 43, was blinded at age 13 months. LB, 27, had been blind since age 14.

They were recorded echolocating, while microphones were attached to their ears.

The recordings were then played while their brain activity was being recorded in an fMRI machine.

Increased activity in the calcarine cortex was discovered.

Dr Lore Thaler, from University of Western Ontario, said: "This suggests that visual brain areas play an important role for echolocation in blind people."

The study looked at only two people so cannot say for certain what happens in the brains of all people who learn the technique, but the study concludes: "EB and LB use echolocation in a way that seems uncannily similar to vision."

Susie Roberts, rehabilitation officer at Action for Blind People, said: "This research into brain activity and echolocation is very interesting and improves our understanding of how some visually impaired people may be processing information to help them navigate safely.

"Further investigation may help to improve the way the technique is taught to people in the future, potentially improving their mobility and independence."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13539921

 

Daredevil isn't so "super" after all...

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 I wonder what Batman has

 I wonder what Batman has to say about all this.


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Vastet wrote:Some blind

Vastet wrote:

Some blind people have learned to echolocate by making clicking noises and listening to the returning echoes.

A study of two such people, published in PLoS ONE, showed a part of the brain usually associated with sight was activated when listening to echoes.

Action for Blind People said further research could improve the way the technique is taught.

Bats and dolphins bounce sound waves off their surroundings and by listening to the echoes can "see" the world around them.

Some blind humans have also trained themselves to do this, allowing them to explore cities, cycle and play sports.

Brain scan

Researchers looked at two patients who use echolocation every day. EB, aged 43, was blinded at age 13 months. LB, 27, had been blind since age 14.

They were recorded echolocating, while microphones were attached to their ears.

The recordings were then played while their brain activity was being recorded in an fMRI machine.

Increased activity in the calcarine cortex was discovered.

Dr Lore Thaler, from University of Western Ontario, said: "This suggests that visual brain areas play an important role for echolocation in blind people."

The study looked at only two people so cannot say for certain what happens in the brains of all people who learn the technique, but the study concludes: "EB and LB use echolocation in a way that seems uncannily similar to vision."

Susie Roberts, rehabilitation officer at Action for Blind People, said: "This research into brain activity and echolocation is very interesting and improves our understanding of how some visually impaired people may be processing information to help them navigate safely.

"Further investigation may help to improve the way the technique is taught to people in the future, potentially improving their mobility and independence."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13539921

 

Daredevil isn't so "super" after all...

Holy crap, I just had an awesome idea. Just as they've been able to restore some people's catastrophic loss of a sense of balance (you'll have to google it), wouldn't it be awesome if they figured out a way to use a high-frequency sonar device to give detailed information to the person, either through translating it into audible sound, or by inducing nerve stimulation similar to the loss-of-balance electrodes, or maybe something like a cochlear implant.

If the visual centre is able to take over that input, then perhaps you could get something genuinely like Daredevil, but real, more like bats and dolphins, actually. Blind people might be able to see faces again, and additional neat trick like seeing the textures of fabrics, or seeing through light clothing (tee hee).

The more I learn about the plasticity of the brain and how it learns, the more this kind of thing seems like a genuine possibility to me.

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 It is a miracle science 

 It is a miracle science

 

 

 


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gaunpro wrote: It is a

gaunpro wrote:

 It is a miracle science

 

You know what else is a miracle? Whip, Miracle Whip.... it tastes good and it comes in a squeezy bottle.   I mean, that's just mindblowing, if that that's not the sperm of Jesus, I don't know what is.  If you shake it, it tastes better BTW.

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Doesn't last very long for a

Doesn't last very long for a miracle. > >

Hey Natural, I think this might work for blind and deaf people. Smiling

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see like a squilla mantis

natural wrote:
Holy crap, I just had an awesome idea. Just as they've been able to restore some people's catastrophic loss of a sense of balance (you'll have to google it), wouldn't it be awesome if they figured out a way to use a high-frequency sonar device to give detailed information to the person, either through translating it into audible sound, or by inducing nerve stimulation similar to the loss-of-balance electrodes, or maybe something like a cochlear implant.

If the visual centre is able to take over that input, then perhaps you could get something genuinely like Daredevil, but real, more like bats and dolphins, actually. Blind people might be able to see faces again, and additional neat trick like seeing the textures of fabrics, or seeing through light clothing (tee hee).


It is supposed that dolphins can comunicate to others images (what they saw) via audio.
Also, dolphins actually see through clothing, like with an echography.


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luca wrote:natural

luca wrote:
natural wrote:
Holy crap, I just had an awesome idea. Just as they've been able to restore some people's catastrophic loss of a sense of balance (you'll have to google it), wouldn't it be awesome if they figured out a way to use a high-frequency sonar device to give detailed information to the person, either through translating it into audible sound, or by inducing nerve stimulation similar to the loss-of-balance electrodes, or maybe something like a cochlear implant. If the visual centre is able to take over that input, then perhaps you could get something genuinely like Daredevil, but real, more like bats and dolphins, actually. Blind people might be able to see faces again, and additional neat trick like seeing the textures of fabrics, or seeing through light clothing (tee hee).
It is supposed that dolphins can comunicate to others images (what they saw) via audio. Also, dolphins actually see through clothing, like with an echography.

 

My guess is that the resolution of the images a human can see through sonar isn't as good as a dolphin's. 


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Great avatar...  

Great avatar...

 

 


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 In 7th grade I had a blind

 In 7th grade I had a blind science teacher. First day she recorded everyone's voice on a reel-to-reel tape. She was amazing. She could target who was chewing gum in the class. (we all sat in the same seats of course). But she knew all our names and voices quickly. One thing she told us was how she fills up glasses with waters. She listened to the sound and as it fills the pitch gets higher and after you listen a few times you know exactly when to stop. To this day I still think about that when filling glasses.

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Quote:Also, dolphins

Quote:
Also, dolphins actually see through clothing, like with an echography.

That, I can believe.

luca wrote:
It is supposed that dolphins can comunicate to others images (what they saw) via audio.

That, I can't.

I suppose it is possible that they can communicate 'what they saw', but I doubt they can communicate it as an image. E.g. "I saw a shark over there." is different than a picture of a shark.

The first requires a small, short burst of information. The later requires very precise control over the sound waves, and would require a lot of information, as well as skill on the part of the dolphin. I doubt they have evolved that far.

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p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

GeraldC wrote:
My guess is that the resolution of the images a human can see through sonar isn't as good as a dolphin's.

 

Exactly right. The sounds of a typical human voice have a wavelength of between 6 and 12 inches. (15 to 30cm). So that sets a fundamental limit on resolution. Sound only bounces off of surfaces larger than the wavelength, else it just goes around them.

 

So going with completely natural, this is good for finding big things such as cars and garbage cans. Finding the door to a room, not so much as the door knob is too small to pick up.

 

Against that, if the skill can be taught, then I could see possibly creating an assist technology with open backed head phones and an audio oscillator. If they can learn to use that, blind people could possibly get down to around an inch or a bit less of resolution.

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we shall see...

Two things:
1)georgia brown could get pretty high with her voice, very much than a normal person - this is a record, yeah, but still...
2)who said you have to use your voice? usually blind people who achieves this trick make a click with the tongue: a transient like that can contain high frequencies.

Quote:
I suppose it is possible that they can communicate 'what they saw', but I doubt they can communicate it as an image. E.g. "I saw a shark over there." is different than a picture of a shark.

The first requires a small, short burst of information. The later requires very precise control over the sound waves, and would require a lot of information, as well as skill on the part of the dolphin. I doubt they have evolved that far.


Eh, I'm talking precisely that: trasmission of acoustic images. I'm not saying "certainly they do it", I'm not saying "they elaborated a RLE codification of bitmaps", nor I'm saying "I got proof", it's maybe speculation, but their behavior and that big thing on their head suggest this. It seems they can communicate a rielaboration of the echo they receive.


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luca wrote: Eh, I'm talking

luca wrote:
Eh, I'm talking precisely that: trasmission of acoustic images. I'm not saying "certainly they do it", I'm not saying "they elaborated a RLE codification of bitmaps", nor I'm saying "I got proof", it's maybe speculation, but their behavior and that big thing on their head suggest this. It seems they can communicate a rielaboration of the echo they receive.

 

Hm... Sounds in a way like synesthesia. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia wrote:

a neurologically based condition in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway.

 

Since it appears to rarely happen in people, I don't know why it would be a big surprise for similar sensory/cognitive pathways to exist in other critters.  

 

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dolphin-media-player

cj wrote:

luca wrote:
Eh, I'm talking precisely that: trasmission of acoustic images. I'm not saying "certainly they do it", I'm not saying "they elaborated a RLE codification of bitmaps", nor I'm saying "I got proof", it's maybe speculation, but their behavior and that big thing on their head suggest this. It seems they can communicate a rielaboration of the echo they receive.

 Hm... Sounds in a way like synesthesia. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia wrote:

a neurologically based condition in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway.

Since it appears to rarely happen in people, I don't know why it would be a big surprise for similar sensory/cognitive pathways to exist in other critters.

If it's real I think that instead of synesthesia it's simply a simulation. Maybe they sort of "whisper in the ear" with their FM whistle the eco they heard in the receptor of the recipient. It would be like a jpg of what they saw (but if they are really evoluted it should be a png...).


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I won't go so far as to say

I won't go so far as to say it's biologically impossible, but I would have to see detailed studies in the dozens to believe it evolved in any species on its own. It's one thing to communicate, it's another to compress a concept (ie bmp > jpg), then communicate it, and then uncompress it upon reception without any interference or assistance.

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