Caposkia and TGBaker discussion
Does God exist? IS Christianity valid? Is the New Testament inerrant and a proof of God? There are several ways to begin this discussion. Having been a Christian before "falling from grace"1.* I would suggest that the evangelical approach would be to share the good news or try to give an explanation that would cause me to consider acceptance of Christ as my savior.
1.*) Galatians 5:4 (NASB) You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. I know depending on your denominational background that even the meaning of this text will be debated.
Again I will share that the loss of my faith came from actual scholarly studies of the scripture. I see philosophically no way one would arrive at a theism through a natural theology without a presupposition of a god and it being derived from holy scripture. To me Christians defend their believe in their faith based upon cultural bonds with their context. It is hard for them to develop a temporary skeptical approach to their faith claims that they may see if those claims hold up from an objective prospective. Most Christian presentation seems apologetic with secondary arguments that support the primary unproven premises. Hey but that is just me.
IT IS NOT HARD FOR ME TO look at for me. You are completely oblivious to what I am saying. ONCE MORE if a t's hard for you understand think of it as different than your powerball. You are not the creator. You do not see what will happen if you create. If you know the whole history of a world and its causation and create it then there is no choice but that it will happen if you create it. There is no freedom in such a world. If the complete contents of a world is known before it is made then made by the knower there is no choice but that everything must happen as it is known. It's simple. It's predetermined with act of of creating it. It can not happen otherwise. There IS no choice. It IS not a matter OF BELIEF. It's simply a MATTER of LOGIC.IT is simply a matter of the unfolding of that which is ENFOLDED in the knowledge of god. There can be no variation or choice about it. I am not trying to BLAME a god I don't believe in. I am trying to show you the problem of such a god thus defined. He ain't a powerball knower. He knows what will happen in every moment of the world if he creates it and does do anyway. He is thus to blame if he were real. Look at it this way god sees 50 worlds he can create. he knows what will happen if he choices any of the worlds. He must if he is omnipotent. World 1 has ABCD....., world 2 has EFGH,....., world 3 has GHIJ..... He can see world 2 has EFGH if he creates it and makes it real. He does so there can not be anythin gother than EFGH ... It can't have anything lik AB I OR J. or god is wrong. Likewise he has known it beforehand So he has determined what is in that world beforehand ( predetermined that world). There can be no variation in any world that god thoroughly knows and actualizes ( creates). It's quite simple.
I am not at all oblivious to what you're saying. I know exactly what you're saying. You see God as defined as a creator that couldn't possibly create without knowing all that was going to happen. I'm telling you that's not true.
It's like an auto manufacturer. The designer knows the car inside and out... better than you, I or your neighborhood mechanic will ever know your car... Though the designer knows every aspect of your car, what it will do under certain stresses, what will happen if you do X to it and how it'll handle through age, probably down to each year, the designer will never know where you're going to drive it. He can deduce that you're not going to drive it anywhere besides planet Earth, but from there, there are an infinite number of roads in the world and just as many choices for you to make with that car.
No the designer never claims to be omnipotent or all-knowing... though if you ask him, he will say he knows everything there is to know about your car. With some basic driving facts from you he could probably tell you what you've needed to fix and what's going to happen to your car in the next year... but does that make him in control of you and causing you to have no control or choice over your car? of course not, he just knows what he made. If this guy happened to be your dad, then he likely would know even more about the choices and even location of where you're going to drive and probably could predict what will happen to the car for the next 10 years, but again, does that make you no longer in control nor allowed to choose? of course not.
But you're saying knowledge and understanding of design has nothing to do with it and that this car designer has programmed the car with a microchip to drive exactly where he decides it's going to drive and eventually crash at a point that you are unaware of until it happens. whether you live or die in the crash is completely up to the designer.
Though he has control over how much power he gives you under the hood and how many feet it takes you to stop, he could never have that much control over your car. God on the other hand as you are making it abundantly clear could make that choice, but scripture has made it clear that we make our own choices and as God is described, both perspectives are possible, empirically, the free choice perspective wins out.
I think you've been missing what I'm saying. I'm telling you it's knowledge and understanding.. you're telling me it's created to play out like a movie where we have no choice on how it's going to end.