Osama Bin Laden Dead

Neoatheist
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Osama Bin Laden Dead

They are announcing it on the news now. This is largely symbolic and will probably change very little with regard to the "war on terror" but for those who lost loved ones, this may help them with closure on the matter.

If you use the bible as your moral compass, chances are you're lost.

When Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" he wasn't saying that people shouldn't be stoned. He was requesting the first pitch.


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Neoatheist wrote: Osama Bin Laden Dead !!!!!!!

 Well,so much can be said here, but I don't want to waste my time typing it out , anyway 'Thank Goodness' he was not only a thorn in our side, but he was also bad for all muslims !

Signature ? How ?


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I had read a while back that

I had read a while back that he was living in a mansion in pakistan. Some fbi agent was spilling it supposedly. Now they have indeed found him in pakistan ..I wonder if the mansion part was correct as well.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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When I see the photo

 

 

I'll believe the story. Hope true. 

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They did say they found him

They did say they found him in a mansion in Pakistan. I wonder how long he was there and how long we knew about it.

If you use the bible as your moral compass, chances are you're lost.

When Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" he wasn't saying that people shouldn't be stoned. He was requesting the first pitch.


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Ding Dong the wicked witch

Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead.

 


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Na na na na na na na na hey

Na na na na na na na na hey hey good bye

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He'll just be replaced.  

He'll just be replaced.   Just like the Pope is replaced.  Not over by a long shot


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 Sound like good news to

 Sound like good news to me.  

On a lighter note.  

epic fail photos - News Caption FAILS

'Obama bin Laden dead': Fox News typo causes Twitter storm

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/862122-obama-bin-laden-dead-fox-news-typo-causes-twitter-storm#ixzz1LBvMrhMo


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IS EVERYONE SITTING DOWN, I

IS EVERYONE SITTING DOWN, I THINK YOU SHOULD.

This just in, and I know everyone here is going to be shocked, but Hamas condemned the killing of Bin Ladin calling him a holy warrior.

Yea, what a hero. The coward just like Charles Manson didn't participate himself, but had his minions do it. And on top of that it wasn't armed people he had attacked, it was an act of mass kidnapping and mass murder of unarmed people.

But Allah is all merciful?

Hey Hamas, your god is a fucking dick, and as as much a dick as the god of some Christians who threaten us with their childish tyrant.

ALLAH AND JESUS SITTING IN A TREE F-U-C-K-I-N-G, First come threats, then comes death, then comes minions in the baby carriage.

Sorry Hamas, you are not going to win the hearts of the west by claiming this bloodthersty dick as your own. Go fuck yourselves! If you don't want the west getting violent with you, don't get violent with the west.

Bin Ladin belongs in the human trash pile with Stalin, Hitler and the churches of the Dark Ages.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:He'll

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

He'll just be replaced.   Just like the Pope is replaced.  Not over by a long shot

Hopefully by an idiot. As much as we dislike mr Laden he was obviously wily enough to evade capture while spreading his disease. We could hope an inept idiot takes charge and bungles the whole thing.

That's my hope anyway.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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 This story is quickly

 This story is quickly becoming ever more fascinating to me. First, it's pretty obvious now that, for once, the CIA was absolutely correct - the Pakistan intelligence service (ISI), at the very least, was not forthcoming with information. Perhaps they were just embarrassed at their own lack of capabilities to locate bin Laden, perhaps they were knowingly harboring him. Given best estimates on the places bin Laden moved to and from, it looks very likely that he never strayed far from Northern Pakistan / Northern Afghanistan, which comes as a tremendous surprise to me because:

 

1) If it were me, I'd have moved well out of harm's way into a stronghold for my ideology. I thought for sure he'd have fled to Somalia.

 

2) He couldn't have remained in that region without cooperating with the Taliban. This completely overturns the general consensus that Al Qaeda & the Taliban did not get along very well.

 

This is going to mean pretty dramatic things for U.S. / Pakistan relations and puts Gillani under pretty damning light, given his insistence that bin Laden was not residing anywhere in his country. 

 

I'm still cranky that the operation was carried-out with no regard for possible consequences, but whatever. At least one megalomaniac has finally had his own hubris roll him up in a plastic bag.

 

Quote:
He'll just be replaced.   Just like the Pope is replaced.  Not over by a long shot

 

For the effective guerrilla arm of Al Qaeda? It's pretty much over.

You can't just 'replace' someone with the years of field experience that bin Laden had. It took up to $20 billion U.S. dollars and 9 years for Reagan to build that monster, and there's no longer a Red Army to go cross gun barrels with to get the sort of hardening bin Laden got (one might argue that they can still go get field experience by engaging the Americans in Iraq, but it's not nearly the same sort of thing; there's no intensive training by a third party, there's no grotesque financing, and frankly, while I never cease to be amazed at how careless and unethical the American occupation is / has been, modern American combatants do not compare with old Soviet combatants in terms of general indiscretion and / or cruelty.

f by 'it' you mean 'the war on terror', yeah, of course it's not over. It'll never be over, or 'won'. It's a stupid concept, just like 'the war on drugs' or any other 'war' that identifies anything other than a concrete nation state as one of the belligerents. 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Apparently they found him

Apparently they found him after he posted his personal information on PSN.

 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Apparently they found him after he posted his personal information on PSN.

 

 

 

Good one, Cpt.

I still think it's all a Photoshop job and a hoax.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Holly shit the end times are

Holly shit the end times are upon us. RUSH LIMBAUGH congratulated Obama for killing Osama.

I'm sorry, but this is one issue Obama has everyone dead to rights on.

But Palin, she's trying to give all the credit to Bush.(Hey Caraboo Barbie, if Rush can congratulate Obama, then you certainly have your head up your ass further than he does)

Here is how I look at it. Bush was not to blame for the attacks in 01 anymore than Clinton was responsible for the attacks in 93. But I am damned sure tired of the right crying foul with everything Obama does.

This is at least one thing only a fool would bitch about.

So can the right simply disagree with his policies without calling him a monster who wasn't born in America?

I think short of bleaching his skin and joining the KKK, the nutjobs will never be satisfied. It is at least nice to see that once bitch slapped some people wake up.

Why is it our entire history has been about fearing minorities and basically saying "you have to have the shit beat out of you first before we accept you".

Thanks Rush, for once you did the right thing. Now stop all the other fear mongering bullshit and maybe the left wouldn't fear you as much as you want the right to fear Obama.

AND worst case senerio right wingers, even if he wins the next election, you should find the same comfort I did knowing that Bush couldn't be president for life.

I really hope Rush's congratulations is sincere and not a begrudging "damn, I wish Bush had done it".

I don't know though, somehow I think Rush will fall back to his money making fear mongering as soon as the spotlight fades on this event.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Holly shit the

Brian37 wrote:

Holly shit the end times are upon us. RUSH LIMBAUGH congratulated Obama for killing Osama.

I'm sorry, but this is one issue Obama has everyone dead to rights on.

But Palin, she's trying to give all the credit to Bush.(Hey Caraboo Barbie, if Rush can congratulate Obama, then you certainly have your head up your ass further than he does)

Here is how I look at it. Bush was not to blame for the attacks in 01 anymore than Clinton was responsible for the attacks in 93. But I am damned sure tired of the right crying foul with everything Obama does.

This is at least one thing only a fool would bitch about.

So can the right simply disagree with his policies without calling him a monster who wasn't born in America?

I think short of bleaching his skin and joining the KKK, the nutjobs will never be satisfied. It is at least nice to see that once bitch slapped some people wake up.

Why is it our entire history has been about fearing minorities and basically saying "you have to have the shit beat out of you first before we accept you".

Thanks Rush, for once you did the right thing. Now stop all the other fear mongering bullshit and maybe the left wouldn't fear you as much as you want the right to fear Obama.

AND worst case senerio right wingers, even if he wins the next election, you should find the same comfort I did knowing that Bush couldn't be president for life.

I really hope Rush's congratulations is sincere and not a begrudging "damn, I wish Bush had done it".

I don't know though, somehow I think Rush will fall back to his money making fear mongering as soon as the spotlight fades on this event.

 

 

 

Hate to burst your bubble Brian but Rush was extremely sarcastic in his congratulations to Obama. The one thing you can count on with any news stories about Rush is that they hardly ever pick up on his sarcasm. His point was basically that Obama only got bin Laden because he continued Bush's policies so in his words he was congratulating Obama for not doing what he said he would do.

 

But just to make your day, I will congratulate Obama. He took a huge risk in service to the country, if this operation failed he would have looked really bad internationally and would have caught a lot of flack. I am grateful that Obama put the countries interest ahead of his personal political interest. And I doubt that killing bin Laden is going to be a substantial help to him at the polls. I think in this case he had a lot more to lose personally than he had to gain but he took the risk anyway.


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ManuAndres44 wrote:Sapient

THE NEXT FIVE POSTS ARE IN OPPOSITE ORDER DUE TO MERGING ANOTHER OBAMA THREAD. - MOD

ManuAndres44 wrote:

Sapient wrote:

ManuAndres44 wrote:

If you deleted it please can you restore it or at least paste my comment here?

 

Sadly, it can't be restored.  We should have merged your thread with the other threads, sorry about that.

 

 

OK. I cannot do anything to get it back and complains won't do anything too. Anyway, I'll rewrite it here.

 

What I'd like to know is your opinions about this idea: I'm still skeptical about Ussama's dead. I didn't see his corpse and even though the US government showed videos and photographs of the "luxurious mansion" Ussama was hidden in, it didn't seem like a luxurious place to me. Besides that, I know Hussein was killed too but he wasn't thrown to the sea though he was Muslim.  Why Ussama's corpse should follow that ritual if we consider the US government is christian?

 

There are several things that make me thing this is a conspiracy and I know it's terrible to write this because I can understand the sorrow of the North American people even though our cultural differences. Nonetheless, it's impossible to forgive someone that caused so much terror due to religion to innocent people. But everything seems like a conspiracy...

 

I'll wait for your answers. Thanks.

I don't like conspires theories.  So unless I have a lot of evidence that somethings was in fact a conspiracy I just assume it isn't.  Right now I'm assuming that their is no conspiracy involved in this event.  Maybe I'll change my mind latter if some evidence comes out.  


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ManuAndres44 wrote: OK. I

ManuAndres44 wrote:

 

OK. I cannot do anything to get it back and complains won't do anything too. Anyway, I'll rewrite it here.

 

What I'd like to know is your opinions about this idea: I'm still skeptical about Ussama's dead. I didn't see his corpse and even though the US government showed videos and photographs of the "luxurious mansion" Ussama was hidden in, it didn't seem like a luxurious place to me. Besides that, I know Hussein was killed too but he wasn't thrown to the sea though he was Muslim.  Why Ussama's corpse should follow that ritual if we consider the US government is christian?

 

There are several things that make me thing this is a conspiracy and I know it's terrible to write this because I can understand the sorrow of the North American people even though our cultural differences. Nonetheless, it's impossible to forgive someone that caused so much terror due to religion to innocent people. But everything seems like a conspiracy...

 

I'll wait for your answers. Thanks.

I have the same doubts as you about Usamas death. I probably won't believe it after they photos of a dead body either. I know how to use Photoshop and I'm sure there are government employees who do also. Imo, there is absolutely no reason why they would have immediately disposed of the body - at sea - except for the fact that by saying they did, there is no way to actually prove or disprove he is actually dead.

As to 'conspiracy theories'... there is usually an element of truth in them, somewhere. Even people like Alex Jones stumbles upon a nugget of truth more often than not. I wonder what he is saying about this? I'll have a look see.

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PS, I am also convinced that

PS, I am also convinced that the 9/11 attacks were not what the media and the government say they were.

Same can be said about the Kennedy assasination.

I do believe we landed on the moon but, I don't believe in human abductions by space aliens, though.

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From Alex

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sapient wrote:ManuAndres44

Sapient wrote:

ManuAndres44 wrote:

If you deleted it please can you restore it or at least paste my comment here?

 

Sadly, it can't be restored.  We should have merged your thread with the other threads, sorry about that.

 

 

OK. I cannot do anything to get it back and complains won't do anything too. Anyway, I'll rewrite it here.

 

What I'd like to know is your opinions about this idea: I'm still skeptical about Ussama's dead. I didn't see his corpse and even though the US government showed videos and photographs of the "luxurious mansion" Ussama was hidden in, it didn't seem like a luxurious place to me. Besides that, I know Hussein was killed too but he wasn't thrown to the sea though he was Muslim.  Why Ussama's corpse should follow that ritual if we consider the US government is christian?

 

There are several things that make me thing this is a conspiracy and I know it's terrible to write this because I can understand the sorrow of the North American people even though our cultural differences. Nonetheless, it's impossible to forgive someone that caused so much terror due to religion to innocent people. But everything seems like a conspiracy...

 

I'll wait for your answers. Thanks.

Debate is the best way to share the knowledge


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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Holly shit the end times are upon us. RUSH LIMBAUGH congratulated Obama for killing Osama.

I'm sorry, but this is one issue Obama has everyone dead to rights on.

But Palin, she's trying to give all the credit to Bush.(Hey Caraboo Barbie, if Rush can congratulate Obama, then you certainly have your head up your ass further than he does)

Here is how I look at it. Bush was not to blame for the attacks in 01 anymore than Clinton was responsible for the attacks in 93. But I am damned sure tired of the right crying foul with everything Obama does.

This is at least one thing only a fool would bitch about.

So can the right simply disagree with his policies without calling him a monster who wasn't born in America?

I think short of bleaching his skin and joining the KKK, the nutjobs will never be satisfied. It is at least nice to see that once bitch slapped some people wake up.

Why is it our entire history has been about fearing minorities and basically saying "you have to have the shit beat out of you first before we accept you".

Thanks Rush, for once you did the right thing. Now stop all the other fear mongering bullshit and maybe the left wouldn't fear you as much as you want the right to fear Obama.

AND worst case senerio right wingers, even if he wins the next election, you should find the same comfort I did knowing that Bush couldn't be president for life.

I really hope Rush's congratulations is sincere and not a begrudging "damn, I wish Bush had done it".

I don't know though, somehow I think Rush will fall back to his money making fear mongering as soon as the spotlight fades on this event.

 

 

 

Hate to burst your bubble Brian but Rush was extremely sarcastic in his congratulations to Obama. The one thing you can count on with any news stories about Rush is that they hardly ever pick up on his sarcasm. His point was basically that Obama only got bin Laden because he continued Bush's policies so in his words he was congratulating Obama for not doing what he said he would do.

 

But just to make your day, I will congratulate Obama. He took a huge risk in service to the country, if this operation failed he would have looked really bad internationally and would have caught a lot of flack. I am grateful that Obama put the countries interest ahead of his personal political interest. And I doubt that killing bin Laden is going to be a substantial help to him at the polls. I think in this case he had a lot more to lose personally than he had to gain but he took the risk anyway.

I knew that was too good to be true. I trusted a goddamn ticker at the bottom of a screen "Rush congratulates Obama." On MSNBC.

Only later to see clips of what you are now saying.

FUCK RUSH

BUT thank you Beyond. Yea, he took a monster risk. But I can tell you this wimp(me) is damned fucking proud of our Navy Seals too!. Bin Ladin needs to see an optometrist. He's going to need both eyes for all that pussy he's getting now. I don't think those virgins will like a terrorist with a glass eye.

Don't fuck with a Navy Seal!

This is weird dude, you and I are having a "USA!" moment together. Wanna get married now?

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 "Obama only got bin Laden

 "Obama only got bin Laden because he continued Bush's policies so in his words he was congratulating Obama for not doing what he said he would do."

This is pretty much what everyone I know says and I don't know of anyone who actually watches rush.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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Brian37 wrote:This is weird

Brian37 wrote:

This is weird dude, you and I are having a "USA!" moment together. Wanna get married now?

 

No, you would be trying to watch MSNBC and I would be trying to watch Fox Business, I think that qualifies as irreconcilable differences. 


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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

This is weird dude, you and I are having a "USA!" moment together. Wanna get married now?

 

No, you would be trying to watch MSNBC and I would be trying to watch Fox Business, I think that qualifies as irreconcilable differences. 

LESS FILLING/ TASTES GREAT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,You got peanut butter in my Chocolate. You got Chocolate in my peanut butter.

You are such a tease.

 

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 ManuAndres44 wrote:OK. I

 

ManuAndres44 wrote:
OK. I cannot do anything to get it back and complains won't do anything too. Anyway, I'll rewrite it here.

 

What I'd like to know is your opinions about this idea: I'm still skeptical about Ussama's dead. I didn't see his corpse and even though the US government showed videos and photographs of the "luxurious mansion" Ussama was hidden in, it didn't seem like a luxurious place to me. Besides that, I know Hussein was killed too but he wasn't thrown to the sea though he was Muslim. Why Ussama's corpse should follow that ritual if we consider the US government is christian?

 

I'll wait for your answers. Thanks.

 

Well, there will never be absolute certainty on this. Eventually, any evidence comes down to somewhere, such as whatever lab did the testing and the DNA from his family. The most you will ever get is some probability. Since the claim currently is that it was family DNA that was used, the 99.99% number is suspect to me. The body could have been a brother of his.

 

Just for grins though, let's work this through.

 

There is a body (well, we think there is but let's run with that much). Eventually, there will be photographs. They don't even have to be photoshopped. As I say, we might get a pic of his brother and how would any of us know? I also expect that we will get a pic of a shrouded object being dropped off the side of an aircraft carrier in an undisclosed location. Whopie!

 

Even if all of that works out, we don't really know how he died. Perhaps we found him dead in a cave somewhere. But needing the PR boost, we decided to come up with a better story. And what might that be? Oh yah, there is the FBI guy who have been telling stories about the mansion. That plus saying that we wanted to be really careful that we were going to really get him works out fine enough.

 

The real danger to coming up with a story like this would be if he was still alive somewhere.

 

Remember that we have already toyed with the idea of him being dead before and he would just wait a few months to issue a new video tape. That has happened often enough to make it a dangerous thing to toy with.

 

What if (and this is just conjecture) he waited until August of 2012 to come out and talk about how the presidential election seems to be going? Do you think that that would help Obama or hurt him?

 

Of course that would be really stupid for him to do as it could result in a swing towards the neocons once again. But remember that he pulled the 9/11 attack early in the Bush 43 presidency. Given the cloud that he was under from the 2000 election, he may not have ever amounted to more than a one term do nothing if he hadn't been thrown a bone by the act of war.

 

If Osama is still alive, I could see him pulling that shit.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

 

ManuAndres44 wrote:
OK. I cannot do anything to get it back and complains won't do anything too. Anyway, I'll rewrite it here.

 

What I'd like to know is your opinions about this idea: I'm still skeptical about Ussama's dead. I didn't see his corpse and even though the US government showed videos and photographs of the "luxurious mansion" Ussama was hidden in, it didn't seem like a luxurious place to me. Besides that, I know Hussein was killed too but he wasn't thrown to the sea though he was Muslim. Why Ussama's corpse should follow that ritual if we consider the US government is christian?

 

I'll wait for your answers. Thanks.

 

Well, there will never be absolute certainty on this. Eventually, any evidence comes down to somewhere, such as whatever lab did the testing and the DNA from his family. The most you will ever get is some probability. Since the claim currently is that it was family DNA that was used, the 99.99% number is suspect to me. The body could have been a brother of his.

 

Just for grins though, let's work this through.

 

There is a body (well, we think there is but let's run with that much). Eventually, there will be photographs. They don't even have to be photoshopped. As I say, we might get a pic of his brother and how would any of us know? I also expect that we will get a pic of a shrouded object being dropped off the side of an aircraft carrier in an undisclosed location. Whopie!

 

Even if all of that works out, we don't really know how he died. Perhaps we found him dead in a cave somewhere. But needing the PR boost, we decided to come up with a better story. And what might that be? Oh yah, there is the FBI guy who have been telling stories about the mansion. That plus saying that we wanted to be really careful that we were going to really get him works out fine enough.

 

The real danger to coming up with a story like this would be if he was still alive somewhere.

 

Remember that we have already toyed with the idea of him being dead before and he would just wait a few months to issue a new video tape. That has happened often enough to make it a dangerous thing to toy with.

 

What if (and this is just conjecture) he waited until August of 2012 to come out and talk about how the presidential election seems to be going? Do you think that that would help Obama or hurt him?

 

Of course that would be really stupid for him to do as it could result in a swing towards the neocons once again. But remember that he pulled the 9/11 attack early in the Bush 43 presidency. Given the cloud that he was under from the 2000 election, he may not have ever amounted to more than a one term do nothing if he hadn't been thrown a bone by the act of war.

 

If Osama is still alive, I could see him pulling that shit.

OH MY GOD,

He's dead. And there was no third man on the grassy knoll. There is no big foot or Loc Ness Monster. And we did land on the moon.

They compared the DNA of Bin Ladin to known relatives DNA.

There is no reason for Obama to lie about this. America is a target, and since he made the order, he is more of a target now, not that muslim nut can get to him.

There are only two groups who want this not to be true, Bin Ladin's followers and republicans who simply cant stand that a black man and not Bush, did it.

PLEASE get a grip.

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Photographs are certainly

Photographs are certainly not going to prove anything, especially if he was shot seriously in the head.

Perhaps a series of action shots of the final moments, better a video, but still fakeable.

Far less convincing than DNA evidence, but that requires a degree of trust.

It would be a big risk to make such confident claims, if he really was still alive somewhere. All he would have to do is release a tape with him making clear references to events since his 'death' to totally discredit Obama and the US - you think he wouldn't do it?

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:Photographs

BobSpence1 wrote:

Photographs are certainly not going to prove anything, especially if he was shot seriously in the head.

Perhaps a series of action shots of the final moments, better a video, but still fakeable.

Far less convincing than DNA evidence, but that requires a degree of trust.

It would be a big risk to make such confident claims, if he really was still alive somewhere. All he would have to do is release a tape with him making clear references to events since his 'death' to totally discredit Obama and the US - you think he wouldn't do it?

 

I'm with you and Brian.  But.....

Elvis is still alive and working in a 7-11 in Tennessee -

I know for certain sure Elvis has left the building and I'll bet Osama has as well.  Permanently.

 

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Brian37 wrote:OH MY GOD,He's

Brian37 wrote:

OH MY GOD,

He's dead. And there was no third man on the grassy knoll. There is no big foot or Loc Ness Monster. And we did land on the moon.

They compared the DNA of Bin Ladin to known relatives DNA.

There is no reason for Obama to lie about this. America is a target, and since he made the order, he is more of a target now, not that muslim nut can get to him.

There are only two groups who want this not to be true, Bin Ladin's followers and republicans who simply cant stand that a black man and not Bush, did it.

PLEASE get a grip.

And you have complete trust in your government, Brian?

Sheesh. You're gullible enough to be a theist.

It's okay, you can come out of the closet now.

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BobSpence1 wrote:Photographs

BobSpence1 wrote:

Photographs are certainly not going to prove anything, especially if he was shot seriously in the head.

Perhaps a series of action shots of the final moments, better a video, but still fakeable.

Far less convincing than DNA evidence, but that requires a degree of trust.

It would be a big risk to make such confident claims, if he really was still alive somewhere. All he would have to do is release a tape with him making clear references to events since his 'death' to totally discredit Obama and the US - you think he wouldn't do it?

 

I think he would, if he were alive.

What about the claims that he died years ago from kidney failure and has been 'kept on ice' since then?

That makes a lot more sense to me than what they are saying now. If Bin Laden had died of natural causes years ago, that would have thrown a huge monkey wrench in the 'war on terror' efforts and put an end to public support - financial and patriotic.

If he had been alive since 9/11, why have they not repeated the Twin Tower terror event at some other location or, some other dastardly deed? Don't tell me it's because of Homeland Security.

Nah. The fact that they claim the body was immediately buried at sea - to respect traditional Muslim ceremony ( like we care about that) - eliminating any possible future positive ID on a body, says it all, imo.

Now they say Bin Laden was unarmed. Why two shots to the head for a kill when it would have been much easier to arrest him, put him on trial and execute him in front of the world and eliminate any doubts whatsoever?

I don't buy it.

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cj wrote:I'm with you and

cj wrote:

I'm with you and Brian.  But.....

Elvis is still alive and working in a 7-11 in Tennessee -

Not! Everyone knows Elvis lives in Vegas. He only comes here to visit.

 

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandy is right... Elvis

Sandy is right... Elvis married my wife and I at the Viva las vegas wedding chapel... we have photographic evidence...

 

BTW.... I just woke up from a weeklong coma.... Did I miss anything?

 


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NeoAtheist wrote: Osama Bin Laden Dead

 Ok,now don't get me wrong,I'm glad that OBL is dead,but was it worth it ? 'Matt' who is the organizer for 'Peace Action Network' said this   " 10 yrs., over 6000 US Soldiers are dead. Trillions of USA Dollars wasted, Hundreds of Thousands of Civilians killed,along with Thousands who are imprisoned.Torture has become a part of our Foreign Policy. And we are supposed to celebrate the killing of ONE person ?  I'm not that happy or excited about this, am I alone here in feeling SAD ? "

Signature ? How ?


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Brian37 wrote: OH MY

Brian37 wrote:

 

OH MY GOD,

He's dead. And there was no third man on the grassy knoll. There is no big foot or Loc Ness Monster. And we did land on the moon.

They compared the DNA of Bin Ladin to known relatives DNA.

There is no reason for Obama to lie about this. America is a target, and since he made the order, he is more of a target now, not that muslim nut can get to him.

There are only two groups who want this not to be true, Bin Ladin's followers and republicans who simply cant stand that a black man and not Bush, did it.

PLEASE get a grip.

Hi Brian37. Thanks for your opinion.

 

First of all, I cannot be in disagreement  neither due to Obama's color nor his Democractic party. Why? Because I'm not racist and I'm anarchist. Besides that, I'm not a U.S.A. citizen. However, I understand the sorrow that 9/11 caused and I know it was a big relief and victory to know OBL was finally killed.

My point is the gap of evidence. When the U.S. killed Sadam Hussein they showed it to the world. Although Hussein was muslim he wasn't threw to the sea. Why U.S. government and CIA would respect this tradition if they're christians? Why to present some pictures that doesn't seem to be from a luxurious mansion?

I can understand there could be no evidence to answer to this questions, but sometimes you can infer things from logic and you could think simply where are the proofs? I'm skeptical and I ask for them. The murder of OBL musn't be believed, because we're not talking about a deity. We are talking about of capturing and killing the world's most wanted man.

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Sandycane wrote:Now they say

Sandycane wrote:

Now they say Bin Laden was unarmed. Why two shots to the head for a kill when it would have been much easier to arrest him, put him on trial and execute him in front of the world and eliminate any doubts whatsoever?

I don't buy it.

Hello Sandycane! Thanks for your opinion.

I also thought in that issue. An experimented war man like OBL won'e be unarmed at home. Although it was very well protected with devices, defenses, cameras and those stuffs, the way the CIA claims he was killed it's too easy. Like in a movie.

I think it would be more satisfying to the US people and even more to the New York people to see OBL executed in public as US did with Hussein. On the other hand, talking in war terms, to see OBL killed by the US would have been a shame to Al-Qaeda.

I'm still having my doubts as you do

 

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How about the testimony of

How about the testimony of bin Laden's wife and daughter who were present?

Pakistan accepts it, al'Queda confirmed it - not solid evidence, but interesting.

All in all, much better evidence that a photo of someone, with or without a serious head wound.

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ManuAndres44 wrote: My

ManuAndres44 wrote:

 

My point is the gap of evidence. When the U.S. killed Sadam Hussein they showed it to the world. Although Hussein was muslim he wasn't threw to the sea.

hussein was almost universally considered a bad muslim, and there was virtually no chance of him being taken seriously as a martyr, despite all his quran-waving during his trial.

bin laden, on the other hand, was considered a holy man and a spiritual leader, thus the attempt to try to nip the martyr cult in the bud.  it's customary for many muslims to turn the tombs of holy men into places of pilgrimage (e.g., the tomb of husayn, the son of the caliph ali, and the tomb of khomeini).  it's just good sense not to allow bin laden that distinction.

ManuAndres44 wrote:
 

Why U.S. government and CIA would respect this tradition if they're christians?

 

because they're not necessarily christians.  the US gov't and all its agencies have no official religious affiliation, and are staffed by people of all religions, or no religion.  i think our gov't was trying to be "the bigger man" by granting bin laden a level of respect in death that he repeatedly denied his victims.

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I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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Ken G. wrote: Ok,now don't

Ken G. wrote:

 Ok,now don't get me wrong,I'm glad that OBL is dead,but was it worth it ? 'Matt' who is the organizer for 'Peace Action Network' said this   " 10 yrs., over 6000 US Soldiers are dead. Trillions of USA Dollars wasted, Hundreds of Thousands of Civilians killed,along with Thousands who are imprisoned.Torture has become a part of our Foreign Policy. And we are supposed to celebrate the killing of ONE person ?  I'm not that happy or excited about this, am I alone here in feeling SAD ? "

most of those lives lost and trillions of dollars down the drain were due to bush's adventure in iraq.  as long as his administration felt there was something they needed to accomplish in iraq, bin laden was not going to be found.  if he were killed 6 or 7 years ago, the american people would have been doubly impatient to wrap up the "war on terror."

it's my firm belief that, had we not gotten ourselves into the iraq war, bin laden would have been killed as early as 2003 or 2004.

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I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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 BobSpence1 wrote:How about

 

BobSpence1 wrote:
How about the testimony of bin Laden's wife and daughter who were present?

 

Pakistan accepts it, al'Queda confirmed it - not solid evidence, but interesting.

 

All in all, much better evidence that a photo of someone, with or without a serious head wound.

 

OK, not disagreeing with you BobSpence1 but I don't think that absent a body, there will never be more than probabilities to work with here. This is after all, in the field of conspiracy theories and those never really go away. I think that the best that we as skeptics are going to do is probably show strong arguments and see where they lead compared to the conspiracy theory arguments.

 

For the bin Laden death, the best one that I have right now is the one that we both posted more or less on top of each other. Specifically, that he has been supposedly dead a few times already only to find video tapes of him talking about stuff that happened much later.

 

Given that history and a possible timing for a return to existence somewhere around when the presidential election here is getting hot, that would be a huge risk for Obama. Even Obama's largest detractors have to admit that it is unlikely that he could possibly be that stupid.

 

Really though, consider some of the old theories that have been fully debunked that just will no go away.

 

Holocaust denial: We have proof of manufacture of astronomically unnecessary quantities of cyanide in a form that is only useful in enclosed spaces. We have shipping records that place the material in the camps. We have direct testimony from the men who did the job. Yet for some people, that is not enough.

 

The Moon landing as hoax: This should be good. For all that NASA had a mantra of “Failure is not an Option”, they had plenty of failures. Which is fully to be expected considering that they were on a steep learning curve with the technology. If the original intention was to fake the thing, then why tell everyone what went wrong at each step? Certainly the Soviets did not feel so compelled.

 

From the four inch flight (redstone rocket that died just as it was lifting off) to Apollo 13 (umm, we had already been to the Moon twice by that point), at what point was the plan abandoned and the deception begun? If the NASA detractors are not prepared to state clearly that NASA stopped trying at some specific point and describe the events and motives of the mission planners to do so, then they are really hard to take seriously.

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iwbiek wrote:hussein was

iwbiek wrote:

hussein was almost universally considered a bad muslim, and there was virtually no chance of him being taken seriously as a martyr, despite all his quran-waving during his trial.

bin laden, on the other hand, was considered a holy man and a spiritual leader, thus the attempt to try to nip the martyr cult in the bud.  it's customary for many muslims to turn the tombs of holy men into places of pilgrimage (e.g., the tomb of husayn, the son of the caliph ali, and the tomb of khomeini).  it's just good sense not to allow bin laden that distinction.



1) iwbiek hit the nail on the head. Bin Laden's grave would have become a holy site, to people who both agreed and disagreed with him in his lifetime. The latter will be poor Pakistanis who will hear about the miracles of the new tomb and will become insta-converts.

2) In Islamic tradition, one cannot ever be buried at sea unless one dies at sea and the body cannot be recovered. By tradition, I presume they meant the ritual washing of the dead body by individuals of the same sex, which meant it's unlikely a fake body could have been used in this case.

He's dead. It's unlikely otherwise.

 


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If it had been my decision

If it had been my decision we might have chopped his body into parts and mailed them to his top guys. Fuck pc make these mofo's fear us as they try to make us fear them, fire with fire, and I think the US could make a bigger better fire if we weren't so worried about hurting the feelings of people who fukin hate us anyway.

Islam can't be reasoned with and coddling has no effect other than to embolden it.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:If it had been

robj101 wrote:

If it had been my decision we might have chopped his body into parts and mailed them to his top guys. Fuck pc make these mofo's fear us as they try to make us fear them, fire with fire, and I think the US could make a bigger better fire if we weren't so worried about hurting the feelings of people who fukin hate us anyway.

Islam can't be reasoned with and coddling has no effect other than to embolden it.



I agree with the essence of what you're saying, but we sure didn't coddle it. We cockblocked it by not giving it the martyr's dignity of pictures to use for propaganda and a shrine to use for recruiting.

 


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robj101 wrote:If it had been

robj101 wrote:

If it had been my decision we might have chopped his body into parts and mailed them to his top guys. Fuck pc make these mofo's fear us as they try to make us fear them, fire with fire...

 

 

    I'm trying to take a break from posting but your suggestion reminded me of an episode regarding war torn Lebanon and the take no shit strategy of the former KGB.   This is an account as related by a British operative who was in Lebanon protecting a dignitary.  Taken from the book series Combat and Survival, p 1561.....

   "Due to the political status of the VIP we were protecting, there was a good possibility that we, too would come under a kamikaze attack.  Because our team was all British, there was a possibility that even we could be kidnapped and held hostage.  After three Russian diplomats had been abducted in the city some months previously, the KGB forced the terrorists to release the men within 24 hours.   This was achieved quite simply but in a most horrific manner: the leader's four sons had been kidnapped, one of them was killed, the head severed and delivered to his father.  Pinned to the head was a note to the effect that if the men were not released within a stipulated time, the remaining three heads would follow.   Before this incident had taken place, we had already decided that if one of our mates was to be captured, decisive action would be need to force their release.

  The former Soviet Union operated under it's own definition of pragmatism.   The American expression "git'er done" pales in significance when compared to how far the Soviets themselves were willing to go to "get the job done."


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wingless_sephiroth

wingless_sephiroth wrote:

robj101 wrote:

If it had been my decision we might have chopped his body into parts and mailed them to his top guys. Fuck pc make these mofo's fear us as they try to make us fear them, fire with fire, and I think the US could make a bigger better fire if we weren't so worried about hurting the feelings of people who fukin hate us anyway.

Islam can't be reasoned with and coddling has no effect other than to embolden it.



I agree with the essence of what you're saying, but we sure didn't coddle it. We cockblocked it by not giving it the martyr's dignity of pictures to use for propaganda and a shrine to use for recruiting.

 

Yea I agree totally with the "no shrine for you" idea.

Fear of inciting islam if pictures are released however is giving away a hand, I don't agree with that, the release of pictures would work as "propoganda" against them and as incentive: "stop or you are next dumbass". Yea kind of a redneck way to put it but rednecks do at times "git'er done".

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

robj101 wrote:

If it had been my decision we might have chopped his body into parts and mailed them to his top guys. Fuck pc make these mofo's fear us as they try to make us fear them, fire with fire...

 

 

    I'm trying to take a break from posting but your suggestion reminded me of an episode regarding war torn Lebanon and the take no shit strategy of the former KGB.   This is an account as related by a British operative who was in Lebanon protecting a dignitary.  Taken from the book series Combat and Survival, p 1561.....

   "Due to the political status of the VIP we were protecting, there was a good possibility that we, too would come under a kamikaze attack.  Because our team was all British, there was a possibility that even we could be kidnapped and held hostage.  After three Russian diplomats had been abducted in the city some months previously, the KGB forced the terrorists to release the men within 24 hours.   This was achieved quite simply but in a most horrific manner: the leader's four sons had been kidnapped, one of them was killed, the head severed and delivered to his father.  Pinned to the head was a note to the effect that if the men were not released within a stipulated time, the remaining three heads would follow.   Before this incident had taken place, we had already decided that if one of our mates was to be captured, decisive action would be need to force their release.

  The former Soviet Union operated under it's own definition of pragmatism.   The American expression "git'er done" pales in significance when compared to how far the Soviets themselves were willing to go to "get the job done."

"All is fair in love and war"

If that's what it takes and it gets the job done I don't see a problem especially when you are dealing with someone who wants you dead.

Some stragtegies like this can actually cause less death and suffering. Reminds me of the goofy question about pushing the fat guy in front of a train to save more people at the expense of his life and his blood on your hands.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

robj101 wrote:

If it had been my decision we might have chopped his body into parts and mailed them to his top guys. Fuck pc make these mofo's fear us as they try to make us fear them, fire with fire...

 

 

    I'm trying to take a break from posting but your suggestion reminded me of an episode regarding war torn Lebanon and the take no shit strategy of the former KGB.   This is an account as related by a British operative who was in Lebanon protecting a dignitary.  Taken from the book series Combat and Survival, p 1561.....

   "Due to the political status of the VIP we were protecting, there was a good possibility that we, too would come under a kamikaze attack.  Because our team was all British, there was a possibility that even we could be kidnapped and held hostage.  After three Russian diplomats had been abducted in the city some months previously, the KGB forced the terrorists to release the men within 24 hours.   This was achieved quite simply but in a most horrific manner: the leader's four sons had been kidnapped, one of them was killed, the head severed and delivered to his father.  Pinned to the head was a note to the effect that if the men were not released within a stipulated time, the remaining three heads would follow.   Before this incident had taken place, we had already decided that if one of our mates was to be captured, decisive action would be need to force their release.

  The former Soviet Union operated under it's own definition of pragmatism.   The American expression "git'er done" pales in significance when compared to how far the Soviets themselves were willing to go to "get the job done."

]

The situation is apples and oranges. We're not talking about several different factions led by a bourgeoisie aristocracy whose main goal is to supplant the other factions and completely control a nation torn by religious sectarianism. The situation in Lebanon has always at least partially been about a few aristocratic families fighting through religious groups. The Druze, the Maronites, the Sunnis... all have strong and powerful families that lead them in that country, and benefit (or lose) by the changing stature of that group.

Your strategy worked in Iran; the reason that the Khomeinists did not take the Russian embassy hostage along with the American one is because the Russians claimed they would bomb Tehran if anyone from their end was threatened with such. Likewise, the hostages were eventually released because the Khomeinists feared Reagan was a "cowboy", who unlike the last president, wouldn't hesitate to use force. Once again, this was not a 'popular' movement led by the masses, it was a movement led by a distinct class of clergymen who were looking out for their own interests, even if they sincerely believed those interests intersected with those of Islam. And to expand on my last point, in Shi'a Islam, the clergy primarily comes from a few families descending from Muhammad himself.

The issue here is Islamism is a largely popular movement with few leaders, and even fewer institutions of leadership (families, clans, etc). The ultraviolence posters are in here suggesting, I can tell you from my experience with friends and family in Pakistan, would have increased recruitment many times over . I don't care what sort of intellectual elitism you want to profess about people making their own choices; less men and women who can be brainwashed by Islamism through charismatic propaganda, the better.

 


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Here's a hypothetical, If by

Here's a hypothetical, If by pressing one button you could kill every al-queda fanatic on the planet would you press it?

Though probably morally wrong in some philisophical mushy bullshit sense I would do a jig on that mofo as I know given such an option for infidels they would do likewise.

 

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wingless_sephiroth

wingless_sephiroth wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

robj101 wrote:

If it had been my decision we might have chopped his body into parts and mailed them to his top guys. Fuck pc make these mofo's fear us as they try to make us fear them, fire with fire...

 

 

    I'm trying to take a break from posting but your suggestion reminded me of an episode regarding war torn Lebanon and the take no shit strategy of the former KGB.   This is an account as related by a British operative who was in Lebanon protecting a dignitary.  Taken from the book series Combat and Survival, p 1561.....

   "Due to the political status of the VIP we were protecting, there was a good possibility that we, too would come under a kamikaze attack.  Because our team was all British, there was a possibility that even we could be kidnapped and held hostage.  After three Russian diplomats had been abducted in the city some months previously, the KGB forced the terrorists to release the men within 24 hours.   This was achieved quite simply but in a most horrific manner: the leader's four sons had been kidnapped, one of them was killed, the head severed and delivered to his father.  Pinned to the head was a note to the effect that if the men were not released within a stipulated time, the remaining three heads would follow.   Before this incident had taken place, we had already decided that if one of our mates was to be captured, decisive action would be need to force their release.

  The former Soviet Union operated under it's own definition of pragmatism.   The American expression "git'er done" pales in significance when compared to how far the Soviets themselves were willing to go to "get the job done."

]

The situation is apples and oranges. We're not talking about several different factions led by a bourgeoisie aristocracy whose main goal is to supplant the other factions and completely control a nation torn by religious sectarianism. The situation in Lebanon has always at least partially been about a few aristocratic families fighting through religious groups. The Druze, the Maronites, the Sunnis... all have strong and powerful families that lead them in that country, and benefit (or lose) by the changing stature of that group.

Your strategy worked in Iran; the reason that the Khomeinists did not take the Russian embassy hostage along with the American one is because the Russians claimed they would bomb Tehran if anyone from their end was threatened with such. Likewise, the hostages were eventually released because the Khomeinists feared Reagan was a "cowboy", who unlike the last president, wouldn't hesitate to use force. Once again, this was not a 'popular' movement led by the masses, it was a movement led by a distinct class of clergymen who were looking out for their own interests, even if they sincerely believed those interests intersected with those of Islam. And to expand on my last point, in Shi'a Islam, the clergy primarily comes from a few families descending from Muhammad himself.

The issue here is Islamism is a largely popular movement with few leaders, and even fewer institutions of leadership (families, clans, etc). The ultraviolence posters are in here suggesting, I can tell you from my experience with friends and family in Pakistan, would have increased recruitment many times over . I don't care what sort of intellectual elitism you want to profess about people making their own choices; less men and women who can be brainwashed by Islamism through charismatic propaganda, the better.

 

I disagree, no amount of coddling and love and peace works on these people. They understand "ultra violence". The moderates do not exist in the equation of islam and they wont untill enough harm is caused by it to encourage them to take a stand against their own fanatics as we do here...well sometimes, lol.

 

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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wingless_sephiroth

wingless_sephiroth wrote:

  The situation is apples and oranges. We're not talking about several different factions led by a bourgeoisie aristocracy whose main goal is to supplant the other factions and completely control a nation torn by religious sectarianism. The situation in Lebanon has always at least partially been about a few aristocratic families fighting through religious groups. The Druze, the Maronites, the Sunnis... all have strong and powerful families that lead them in that country, and benefit (or lose) by the changing stature of that group.

Your strategy worked in Iran; the reason that the Khomeinists did not take the Russian embassy hostage along with the American one is because the Russians claimed they would bomb Tehran if anyone from their end was threatened with such. Likewise, the hostages were eventually released because the Khomeinists feared Reagan was a "cowboy", who unlike the last president, wouldn't hesitate to use force. Once again, this was not a 'popular' movement led by the masses, it was a movement led by a distinct class of clergymen who were looking out for their own interests, even if they sincerely believed those interests intersected with those of Islam. And to expand on my last point, in Shi'a Islam, the clergy primarily comes from a few families descending from Muhammad himself.

The issue here is Islamism is a largely popular movement with few leaders, and even fewer institutions of leadership (families, clans, etc). The ultraviolence posters are in here suggesting, I can tell you from my experience with friends and family in Pakistan, would have increased recruitment many times over . I don't care what sort of intellectual elitism you want to profess about people making their own choices; less men and women who can be brainwashed by Islamism through charismatic propaganda, the better.

 

 

  I possess no insights into the inner workings of Lebanon, Pakistan, etc as you do.  I was simply referring to a method of brutal  negotiation that was once employed by members of the Soviet Intelligence community. It achieved a short term goal.  They got their diplomats back.  End of discussion.

  Even now the Israeli government is famous for acts of retaliation.  It's a process they've never abandoned and I assume they never will.  Apparently they don't seem to care whether their acts of violence increase or decrease recruitment among their enemies.


robj101
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"Being born is the worst

"Being born is the worst thing that's ever happened to me...."

You must have it pretty easy then ><

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin