A Study of Morality

newnature
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A Study of Morality

At that fateful moment, Adam and Eve are standing together at the tree, and although only the woman and the serpent speak, Adam was present, and it seems he accepted the fruit that his wife handed him. He was fully complicitous, and indeed, Yahweh holds him responsible. Yahweh reproaches Adam. Adam says: Well, Eve handed to me. She gave it to me. Eve explains, the serpent tricked me. Yahweh vents his fury on all three, and he does so in ascending order: first the serpent for his trickery and then the woman, and finally the man. The doctrine of original sin, which is the idea that humans after Adam are born into a state of sin, by definition. The actions of Adam and Eve bring death to the human race, they don’t bring a state of utter and unredeemed sinfulness. In fact, humans have moral choice in each and every age. Adam and Eve after eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and bad, they also lose their harmonious relationship with nature. There had been a peaceful relationship between creatures and humans to that point. Humans are banished now from the Garden. It used to yield its fruits to them without any labor, but now humans have to toil for food and the earth yields its fruits only stintingly. The humans will learn that the concomitant of their freedom is responsibility. Their first act of defiance is punished harshly. So they learn, that the moral choices and actions of humans have consequences that have to be borne by the perpetrator. Evil is a product of human behavior, not a principal inherent in the cosmos; man’s disobedience is the cause of the human predicament. So knowledge or wisdom or perhaps moral freedom, seems to come at a very high price.

The disobedience happens in a rather backhanded way. It’s interesting, Yahweh tells Adam before the creation of Eve that he’s not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, lest you die. Eve doesn’t hear this command directly, she hasn’t been created. Then we meet the cunning serpent, and although many will identify the serpent as Satan, an enticer, a tempter, some sort of evil creature, the serpent doesn’t seem to be so. The serpent in Eden is simply a talking animal.

Adam and Eve after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad are like Yahweh; they have become wise in that they have learned they have moral choice. They have free will, they can defy Yahweh and Yahweh’s plans for them in a way that animals and natural phenomena cannot. But now that means there is a serious danger here, Yahweh says, “Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and life forever!” So the acceptance of mortality as an inescapable part of the human condition, the quest for immortality, Yahweh could not afford to allow them access to the tree of life, and Yahweh maintains the upper hand in this, the fact that they eventually must die. Yahweh has to punt the ball, he has to modify his plans by barring access to the tree of life, humans are going to be a force to be reckoned with. Because of the length of these reasoning’s, read more at,
 
http://thatlifeyahwehhas.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-resul...

Thanks for any insight.

Always trying to learn more about that life Yahweh has within himself, and about that life Yeshua got when Yahweh raised Yeshua from among the dead-John 5:26


Ktulu
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 hmmm, aside from the fact

 hmmm, aside from the fact that without a moral compass, Adam and Eve either didn't know disobeying god is bad, or already had a moral compass, in which case, why punish them for gaining a moral compass? So, aside from the fact that the whole story makes no sense, what does Genesis have to do with the study of morality?  Religion is a forced moral code that should be at best disregarded, but definitely not build a moral study around.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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The man was told not to eat

The man was told not to eat off that tree and the serpent overheard what was said to Adam, but Eve was not made from Adam's rib yet?

Always trying to learn more about that life Yahweh has within himself, and about that life Yeshua got when Yahweh raised Yeshua from among the dead-John 5:26


EXC
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Are we allowed to judge

Are we allowed to judge Yahweh's morality in this story? After all he created the situation and decided that creatures he created needed to suffer. So it would seem if he really exists, he is morally horrible.

But Theists tell us we can't morally judge Mr. Invisible. Why? The reason is because he is all powerful, so we can't question his morals. So I would conclude that a Theist's only real morality is 'might makes right'.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


Ktulu
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newnature wrote:The man was

newnature wrote:

The man was told not to eat off that tree and the serpent overheard what was said to Adam, but Eve was not made from Adam's rib yet?

Yes but without knowing what right and wrong is, how did 'the man' know that listening to god=good, not listening=bad?

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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When the earth was in the

When the earth was in the first heaven, we are now on the earth while it is in this second heaven, but anyway this individual started something.

Ezekiel 28:11-15; Ezekiel charges that the king of Tyre has overstepped his bounds, because of his wealth; this king deemed his mind equal to a god’s? Ezekiel is picturing this king as a quasi-mythical being in a bejeweled garden of Eden. The king boasts of his wisdom and beauty; Ezekiel employs the imagery of the garden of Eden story to describe the Tyrian king’s downfall. Ezekiel employs the imagery of the cherub to stress the Tyrian king’s power and high position; same as the once-perfect creature is shown to have sinned and therefore was struck down. But the figurative language Ezekiel is using is of a story of a garden of Eden, that Yahweh caused to grow on the earth, while the earth was in the first heaven. Although Ezekiel is telling all this to a Tyrian king, the story Ezekiel is using is neither allegory, myth, legend, nor fable, but literal historical facts set forth, and emphasized by the use of figures of speech.

Ezekiel tells in this garden story, that their was an individual that was a once-perfect creature. Yet, all the confusion of thought about this individual, have arisen from taking literally what is expressed by figures, or from taking figuratively what is literal. A figure of speech is never used except for the purpose of calling attention to, emphasizing, and intensifying, the reality of the literal sense, and the truth of the historical facts; so that, while the words employed may not be so strictly true to the letter, they are all the more true to the truth conveyed by them, and to the historical events connected with them. Here the story Ezekiel used of an individual==You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and flawless in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of Yahweh; every precious stone was your adornment; carnelian, chrysolite, and amethyst; beryl, lapis lazuli, and jasper; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and gold beautifully wrought for you, mined for you, prepared the day you were created. I created you as a cherub with outstretched shielding wings, and you resided on Yahweh’s holy mountain; you walked among stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways, from the day you were created, until wrongdoing was found in you.

Yes, wrongdoing was found in Lucifer, he had a plan afloat. 

  

Always trying to learn more about that life Yahweh has within himself, and about that life Yeshua got when Yahweh raised Yeshua from among the dead-John 5:26


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newnature wrote:   

newnature wrote:

 

   .....same as the once-perfect creature is shown to have sinned and therefore was struck down.

   ......Ezekiel tells in this garden story, that their was an individual that was a once-perfect creature.

  

       Christians redefining concepts to satisfy the requirements of their religious myths.   If something is perfect, and then later displays qualities of imperfection, then it was never actually perfect to begin with.   Mutually exclusive terms.  Something cannot be both perfect and imperfect.  It's one or the other, not both, no morphing around clearly defined limitations. Sorry.

   It's no different than Christians who claim that the incarnated Jesus was wholly or completely God and at the same time wholly and completely man.   Mutually exclusive terms to anyone but a Christian apologist.        2 + 2 = 5 !

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EXC wrote: But Theists tell

EXC wrote:

 

But Theists tell us we can't morally judge Mr. Invisible. Why? The reason is because he is all powerful, so we can't question his morals. So I would conclude that a Theist's only real morality is 'might makes right'.

   Yes, what you are saying reminds me of what Martin Wagner of Atheist Experience stated regarding this very subject.  The Christian caller stated that he would willingly kill his own child if God told him to.   Wagner offered the insight that so-called Christian morality is not based upon a set base of ethics and it is nothing more than obedience to authority....and nothing more.

  It's the same paradox where Christians can accuse atheists of being morally relativistic  yet in the same breath they will bend over backward to defend wholesale genocide perpetrated under God's decree. 

 

 

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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Disobeying commands of an

Disobeying commands of an 'authority' figure is not, of itself wrong.

Morality is not about following a set of rules laid down by anyone. That is merely a 'legalistic' system.

Morality should be based on judgements about we act toward others, and, as a primary concern, avoiding causing harm and distress without adequate cause.

Those considerations did not arise in the G of E scenario - its 'message' was not about morality, it was about endorsing God's authority.

And his reaction in condemning not only Eve but Adam and all their descendants was the act of a spiteful asshole, an evil dictator figure. Heil Hitler!

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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EXC
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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 Wagner offered the insight that so-called Christian morality is not based upon a set base of ethics and it is nothing more than obedience to authority....and nothing more.

Obedience to powerful authority. Complete moral cowardice, going along with the most powerful authority only because they are the most powerful.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


Ktulu
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BobSpence1 wrote:And his

BobSpence1 wrote:

And his reaction in condemning not only Eve but Adam and all their descendants was the act of a spiteful asshole, an evil dictator figure. Heil Hitler!

Lol, just in case the OP had any illusion regarding where we stand on this... Bob's one line sums it up nicely. 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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EXC wrote:Obedience to

EXC wrote:

Obedience to powerful authority. Complete moral cowardice, going along with the most powerful authority only because they are the most powerful.

 .

 I agree.    It's a motive that could easily be defined as mercenary.  It's conformity based upon fear.  There's nothing high minded or noble about.  Period.

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"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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Excellent thread

 

 

NewNature - most instructive. I knew that witch eve was directly to blame. If only this pair of fuckwits had the sense to eat from the tree of eternal telomeres instead of the tree of subjective personal morality I could lay off the AHAs and start planning my 100th birthday...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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And the lord

 

 

has to take some responsibility for allowing a fucking tricksy anaconda into his perfect garden. WTF was that about. Still. It's not as silly as herbivorous lions....

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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That is trippe how those

That is trippe how those animals eat the grass of the field.


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Welcome to the forum.Is

Welcome to the forum.

Is there a claim being made here?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare