'Don't Say Gay' Bill in Tennessee

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'Don't Say Gay' Bill in Tennessee

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42722103#42722103

A law to prohibit teachers from discussing gay issues with children in Kindergarten through 8th grade.

I agree.

Children that young should not be discussing sexual issues with their teachers... especially in the bible belt.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandycane

Sandycane wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42722103#42722103

A law to prohibit teachers from discussing gay issues with children in Kindergarten through 8th grade.

I agree.

Children that young should not be discussing sexual issues with their teachers... especially in the bible belt.

I don't know.  As soon as  kid hits puberty they should probably be given sex education.   Also I don't think it would hurt kids to be informed of what what the word gay or lesbian means, and that such people exist.  


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RatDog wrote:Sandycane

RatDog wrote:

Sandycane wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42722103#42722103

A law to prohibit teachers from discussing gay issues with children in Kindergarten through 8th grade.

I agree.

Children that young should not be discussing sexual issues with their teachers... especially in the bible belt.

I don't know.  As soon as  kid hits puberty they should probably be given sex education.   Also I don't think it would hurt kids to be informed of what what the word gay or lesbian means, and that such people exist.  

 I blame the parents for the whole "sex" problem with kids these days. I agree with this and any kind of "birds and the bee's" talk should be taught at home, parents need to care... but they don't because ps3 is more important.

 

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robj101 wrote: I blame the

robj101 wrote:

 I blame the parents for the whole "sex" problem with kids these days. I agree with this and any kind of "birds and the bee's" talk should be taught at home, parents need to care... but they don't because ps3 is more important.

 

You don't have children?

 

Anything mom or dad say is to be flat out ignored as vile lies.  After mom and dad have explained about birds, bees, menstrual cycles, estrus cycles, pregnancy, birth, loving relationships vs one night stands, your oh-so-intelligent offspring come home one day and inform you that one of their friends at school said babies were found under the cabbage leaves in the cabbage patch and therefore, it is the truth.

As a parent, I would take any assistance I could to make sure the truth stuck in the little darlin's heads.  Teachers, doctors, nurses, anyone who actually knew what they were talking about.  It takes just one time of your child telling you that you lied to them and so-and-so's mom or dad told them the truth -- and what they repeat is exactly what you told them in the first place.  I soon learned to be grateful at least they were learning the truth and I didn't care where who said it first - me or the teacher or the doctor or Johnny's mom .......

Depends so much on the context.  Yes, I don't think 5 year olds need to be told about the difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality.  However, if Bobby has two dads, and the other kids are calling him a fag - and they probably don't know what they are saying but are most likely just repeating what they heard elsewhere - then the other children need to be restrained from being the natural little brats all children are.  And if that involves a lesson in "all families are equal" then the other moms and dads should support that lesson. 

Alternatively, if Suzy asks the teacher, "what is a Lesbian?" the answer should not be "ask your parents".  There is a reason Suzy is not asking her parents.  And dragging her parents into the discussion may be physically harmful to Suzy.  We should all be aware of the possibility.

Or we could all go back to the good old days - like when I was young in the mists of time.    Prior to the mid to late 1970s in the state of Arizona, it was against the law to discuss birth control with an unmarried woman.  No matter her age.  Is this law a slippery slope leading to such absurdities?  Probably not, but the two are good examples of over kill when the situations that triggered the laws were probably not that big of a deal.

 

 

 

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robj101 wrote: I blame the

robj101 wrote:

 I blame the parents for the whole "sex" problem with kids these days. I agree with this and any kind of "birds and the bee's" talk should be taught at home, parents need to care... but they don't because ps3 is more important.

 

I agree. Teachers should teach. Leave the social/sexual issues to the parents OR, send the kid to the school guidance counselor.

 

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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A law that prohibits

A law that prohibits teachers from teaching.

Hmmmm....


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cj wrote: You don't have

cj wrote:

 

You don't have children?

I do. I also have grand kids.  

Quote:
Anything mom or dad say is to be flat out ignored as vile lies.  After mom and dad have explained about birds, bees, menstrual cycles, estrus cycles, pregnancy, birth, loving relationships vs one night stands, your oh-so-intelligent offspring come home one day and inform you that one of their friends at school said babies were found under the cabbage leaves in the cabbage patch and therefore, it is the truth.
Oh, and the stork doesn't bring babies? yeah right!  Sometimes TMI is simply that, especially for a child. A 5 year old child doesn't have the mental capacity to grasp the complexities of sex and telling them about the cabbage patch or the stork is the best answer, imo.An 8th grader is what, 12 years old? A 12 year old can't handle TMI either and should be told just the basics.

But, we're specifically talking about a child specifically asking a teacher about gay issues. Do you honestly trust an elementary school teacher to explain this properly - one in Tennessee?

Quote:
As a parent, I would take any assistance I could to make sure the truth stuck in the little darlin's heads.  Teachers, doctors, nurses, anyone who actually knew what they were talking about.  It takes just one time of your child telling you that you lied to them and so-and-so's mom or dad told them the truth -- and what they repeat is exactly what you told them in the first place.  I soon learned to be grateful at least they were learning the truth and I didn't care where who said it first - me or the teacher or the doctor or Johnny's mom .......
I disagree cj. I do (did) care where my child got her information from (still do). Questions about sexuality should be directed to the parents and teachers should do the directing. Far too much responsibility of raising kids has been shifted away from the parents and the burden has been forced onto society. Parents should take responsibility and if they don't know how, someone needs to teach them - not their kids.

Quote:
Depends so much on the context.  Yes, I don't think 5 year olds need to be told about the difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality.  However, if Bobby has two dads, and the other kids are calling him a fag - and they probably don't know what they are saying but are most likely just repeating what they heard elsewhere - then the other children need to be restrained from being the natural little brats all children are.  And if that involves a lesson in "all families are equal" then the other moms and dads should support that lesson. 
If Bobby has two dads and the other kids are calling him a fag, Bobby (and his teacher) needs to tell them to stfu and MYOB. Does anyone even know what that means anymore??? Mind your own business.

Quote:
Alternatively, if Suzy asks the teacher, "what is a Lesbian?" the answer should not be "ask your parents".  There is a reason Suzy is not asking her parents.  And dragging her parents into the discussion may be physically harmful to Suzy.  We should all be aware of the possibility.
The problem here is lack of control in the classroom, imo. When I was a kid, my teachers kept us so busy with reading, writing, arithmetic, social studies, science, art and gym class, that we would be doing well to keep up with it all. If the kid is asking about sex, he has waaaay too much free time on his hands!

Quote:
Or we could all go back to the good old days - like when I was young in the mists of time.    Prior to the mid to late 1970s in the state of Arizona, it was against the law to discuss birth control with an unmarried woman.  No matter her age.  Is this law a slippery slope leading to such absurdities?  Probably not, but the two are good examples of over kill when the situations that triggered the laws were probably not that big of a deal.

 

back in the 70's premarital sex was a no-no so, the law made sense - back then. Does the law still stand?

I see two problems: parents aren't doing the job of proper parenting and teachers aren't teaching what they should be teaching.

 

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Anonymouse wrote:A law that

Anonymouse wrote:

A law that prohibits teachers from teaching.

Hmmmm....

No, not at all. in fact, this kind of law would (should) offer more time to teachers to actually teach and not have to be social workers.

Tennessee curriculum:

 Academic Vocabulary

Arts education

Computer technology

Career Guidance

English

English as a second language (???)

Foreign Language

health/PE/Wellness

Math

reading

Science

Service learning

Social Studies

 

 

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandycane

Sandycane wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42722103#42722103

A law to prohibit teachers from discussing gay issues with children in Kindergarten through 8th grade.

I agree.

Children that young should not be discussing sexual issues with their teachers... especially in the bible belt.  

I can't get behind that, whatsoever.

And especially since sex is so prevalent, whether on TV, in the movies, in the media, online, and homosexuality overlaps all of those means of information gathering.

'Sex' is 'out of the closet', and part of the mainstream.

That's just a modern reality, and there's no way you're going to get that genie back in the bottle.

 

It's not logical to attempt to raise children in some sort of vacuum, when the rest of society is not 'with the program'.

Sex is an important part of being human. We are wired that way.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

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Sandycane wrote:Anonymouse

Sandycane wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

A law that prohibits teachers from teaching.

Hmmmm....

No, not at all. in fact, this kind of law would (should) offer more time to teachers to actually teach and not have to be social workers.

Which is why it's about all sexuality and not just gays, right?

This is no different than saying you can't talk about inter-racial couples. It doesn't even have anything to do with teaching a damn thing according to the video, you can't even talk about it. So when some kid asks the gay teacher what he did yesterday, he can't tell them about anything he did with his same-sex partner because the kids' heads would clearly explode if they find out not every couple is exactly like their parents.

How do you not see this is nothing but another stick to beat the gays with?


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redneF wrote:Sandycane

redneF wrote:

Sandycane wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42722103#42722103

A law to prohibit teachers from discussing gay issues with children in Kindergarten through 8th grade.

I agree.

Children that young should not be discussing sexual issues with their teachers... especially in the bible belt.  

I can't get behind that, whatsoever.

And especially since sex is so prevalent, whether on TV, in the movies, in the media, online, and homosexuality overlaps all of those means of information gathering.

'Sex' is 'out of the closet', and part of the mainstream.

That's just a modern reality, and there's no way you're going to get that genie back in the bottle.

 

It's not logical to attempt to raise children in some sort of vacuum, when the rest of society is not 'with the program'.

Sex is an important part of being human. We are wired that way.

I think y'all are missing the main point; this is in Tennessee. If I were a teacher, would you want me discussing gay issues with your child? Now, imagine me as a Christian fundamentalist, teaching your child about gayness. Case closed.

I just don't see where it fits into the current curriculum. Now, if the question were presented in a sex ed class, that's different. If a child goes to the school guidance counselor with a gay question, that's different. I just don't think a classroom teacher, teaching math, science, whatnot should be interrupted with non-subject related questions. Hell, they all complain about having too many kids in the classroom to be able to teach them the basics. Keeping to the curriculum is a good thing, imo.

I'm going to try to find a copy of the actual Bill.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Anonymouse wrote:A law that

Anonymouse wrote:

A law that prohibits teachers from teaching.

Hmmmm....

Where is your line*? Should they teach creationism? Should they teach k-8th how to masturbate properly? Should they teach that we should dominate "lesser" folks so we can take their oil? Should the schools teach proper maintenance of a ps3 and x-box? Should the schools have a class on teaching kids how to text better and faster? lol This is a bit of what I was saying in the other thread about "lines". Teaching a child about sex was not always an accepted option, now it is and wallah we have more kids having kids. Some people think it's ok and some don;t. Once again I think this should be handled by the parents, but big brother is stepping up because the parents are stepping down.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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 Stop the presses!Okay, I

 

Stop the presses!

Okay, I could have written Part (1). It's almost word for word what I did write.

However, Part (2) is off the wall.

I could agree with the Bill if 'other than heterosexuality' had been omitted.

But, if they allow sex education, omitting homosexuality is stupid.

Remember, we are talking about Tennessee... and again, I ask, do you really want these people teaching about gayness anyway? 'If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all' is probably best in this case.

SENATE BILL 49

By Campfield

HOUSE BILL 229

By Dunn

AN ACT to amend Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 49,

Chapter 6, Part 10, relative to education.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF TENNESSEE:

SECTION 1. Tennessee Code Annotated, Section 49-6-1005, is amended by adding

the following as new subsection (c) and by relettering the existing subsection (c) accordingly:

(c)

(1) The general assembly recognizes the sensitivity of particular subjects

that are best explained and discussed in the home. Human sexuality is a

complex subject with societal, scientific, psychological, and historical

implications; those implications are best understood by children with sufficient

maturity to grasp their complexity.

(2) Notwithstanding any other law to the contrary, no public elementary or

middle school shall provide any instruction or material that discusses sexual

orientation other than heterosexuality.

SECTION 2. This act shall take effect upon becoming a law, the public welfare requiring

it.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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http://www.michie.com/tenness

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandycane wrote:  Stop the

Sandycane wrote:

 

 

Stop the presses!

Okay, I could have written Part (1). It's almost word for word what I did write.

However, Part (2) is off the wall.

I could agree with the Bill if 'other than heterosexuality' had been omitted.

But, if they allow sex education, omitting homosexuality is stupid.

Remember, we are talking about Tennessee... and again, I ask, do you really want these people teaching about gayness anyway? 'If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all' is probably best in this case.

 

SENATE BILL 49

By Campfield

HOUSE BILL 229

By Dunn

AN ACT to amend Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 49,

Chapter 6, Part 10, relative to education.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF TENNESSEE:

SECTION 1. Tennessee Code Annotated, Section 49-6-1005, is amended by adding

the following as new subsection (c) and by relettering the existing subsection (c) accordingly:

(c)

(1) The general assembly recognizes the sensitivity of particular subjects

that are best explained and discussed in the home. Human sexuality is a

complex subject with societal, scientific, psychological, and historical

implications; those implications are best understood by children with sufficient

maturity to grasp their complexity.

(2) Notwithstanding any other law to the contrary, no public elementary or

middle school shall provide any instruction or material that discusses sexual

orientation other than heterosexuality.

SECTION 2. This act shall take effect upon becoming a law, the public welfare requiring

it.

So they are typically anti-gay but still want kids to know about sex.. el oh el.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Sandycane wrote:redneF

Sandycane wrote:

redneF wrote:

Sandycane wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42722103#42722103

A law to prohibit teachers from discussing gay issues with children in Kindergarten through 8th grade.

I agree.

Children that young should not be discussing sexual issues with their teachers... especially in the bible belt.  

I can't get behind that, whatsoever.

And especially since sex is so prevalent, whether on TV, in the movies, in the media, online, and homosexuality overlaps all of those means of information gathering.

'Sex' is 'out of the closet', and part of the mainstream.

That's just a modern reality, and there's no way you're going to get that genie back in the bottle.

 

It's not logical to attempt to raise children in some sort of vacuum, when the rest of society is not 'with the program'.

Sex is an important part of being human. We are wired that way.

I think y'all are missing the main point; this is in Tennessee. If I were a teacher, would you want me discussing gay issues with your child? Now, imagine me as a Christian fundamentalist, teaching your child about gayness. Case closed.  

Well, no.

It's not 'case closed' because teachers in Tennessee are not capable of being 'academic' about sex, and sexual orientation.

If they're incapable, they do not meet the minimum criteria for the job. There are plenty that do.

In public schools, teaching is not a 'right', it's a 'privelege', and as such, it is conditional.

Sandycane wrote:
I just don't see where it fits into the current curriculum. Now, if the question were presented in a sex ed class, that's different. If a child goes to the school guidance counselor with a gay question, that's different. I just don't think a classroom teacher, teaching math, science, whatnot should be interrupted with non-subject related questions.

I'm not disagreeing with this point, however, I'm not for any gag order either.

This law seems to be specifically about a gag order on the topic of homosexuality.

That's blatantly discriminating against homosexuality.

 

Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile...

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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robj101 wrote:So they are

robj101 wrote:

So they are typically anti-gay but still want kids to know about sex.. el oh el.

BINGO!

 

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Sandycane wrote: Remember,

Sandycane wrote:
 Remember, we are talking about Tennessee... and again, I ask, do you really want these people teaching about gayness anyway?

I don't want any unqualified people in classrooms, period.

Sandycane wrote:
SECTION 2. This act shall take effect upon becoming a law, the public welfare requiring

it.

Non sequitur.

Homosexuality is not a threat to the public.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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redneF wrote: Homosexuality

redneF wrote:

 

Homosexuality is not a threat to the public.

Correct, it is the dissension caused by many peoples perception that is a threat.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Sandycane wrote:back in the

Sandycane wrote:

back in the 70's premarital sex was a no-no so, the law made sense - back then. Does the law still stand?

I see two problems: parents aren't doing the job of proper parenting and teachers aren't teaching what they should be teaching.

 

As recently as 1988, living together without being married was on the AZ books as "notoriously cohabitating" and it was illegal.  I tried to get everyone I knew who was notorious to join me down at the city jail and turn ourselves in.  I was notoriously living with my now husband - we weren't married at the time.

I figured if even 1/4 of the notoriously cohabitating inhabitants of Tucson showed up, the law would get changed.  The politicians were arguing about it at the time.  Unfortunately, the conservatives in the AZ legislature won and the law may still be in effect for all I know.  You think Tennessee is behind the times, I don't live in AZ for many reasons and that is one of them.

My point was, if a question is asked, it should be answered.  Right then.  Appropriately for the child's age.  While you may have been the most wonderful parent in the world, I can certify that I was not and am not.  If the teacher is full of it, then I can straighten out the child later.  If the teacher can shed some light on the subject that is has some truth in it, I'm all for it.

Not all parents are perfect, you know.  Which is why schools are doing more than teaching the 3 r's. 

 

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redneF wrote:This law seems

redneF wrote:

This law seems to be specifically about a gag order on the topic of homosexuality.

That's blatantly discriminating against homosexuality.

 

Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile...

 

Yes, and after I read the actual Bill, I agree with you.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandycane wrote:No, not at

Sandycane wrote:
No, not at all. in fact, this kind of law would (should) offer more time to teachers to actually teach and not have to be social workers.

Not sure what simply defining the word "gay" has to do with being social workers, or why it should take so long that it would take anything away from the rest of the curriculum.

 


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robj101 wrote:Where is your

robj101 wrote:

Where is your line*?

Learning is fun !

robj101 wrote:
Should they teach creationism?

As an example of magical thinking ? Sure. Should take about 5 minutes.

robj101 wrote:
Should they teach k-8th how to masturbate properly?

If you need to teach kids something even monkeys can figure out by themselves, then you have a problem education can't solve.

robj101 wrote:
Should they teach that we should dominate "lesser" folks so we can take their oil?

We can teach them just exactly why that's a bad idea. That's called history class, I think.

robj101 wrote:
Should the schools teach proper maintenance of a ps3 and x-box?

That would be discriminating against the poor kids who can't afford to buy one of those.

robj101 wrote:
Should the schools have a class on teaching kids how to text better and faster?

Teaching kids to get carpal tunnel syndrom in their thumbs ? Nah, let's not.

robj101 wrote:
lol This is a bit of what I was saying in the other thread about "lines". Teaching a child about sex was not always an accepted option, now it is and wallah we have more kids having kids.

Not sure if there's a connection there. Of all the kids I had sex-ed with, not a single one has managed to get someone pregnant yet.

robj101 wrote:
Some people think it's ok and some don;t. Once again I think this should be handled by the parents, but big brother is stepping up because the parents are stepping down.

Well, a law like that isn't going to create more responsible parents, now is it ?


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Sandycane wrote:redneF

Sandycane wrote:

redneF wrote:

This law seems to be specifically about a gag order on the topic of homosexuality.

That's blatantly discriminating against homosexuality.

 

Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile...

 

Yes, and after I read the actual Bill, I agree with you.

 

Oh, sorry. Seems this is settled as well. Forget my posts then.

Everybody agrees again. Yay !


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 redneF wrote:   Sandycane

 

redneF wrote:

 

Sandycane wrote:
SECTION 2. This act shall take effect upon becoming a law, the public welfare requiring it.

 

Non sequitur.

 

Homosexuality is not a threat to the public.

 

Granted but from what I can tell, all bills in TN have that as a standard last line.

 

I got curious because they also have two versions of their anti-evolution bill working through the system and pulling the bill texts, they both have that as well.

 

The interesting thing here is that the academic freedom bills both are quite specific about shielding teachers from any repercussions which would follow from them teaching anything that is controversial and a matter of scientific inquiry.

 

Um, we know what they are trying to do with those bills but they way that they are going about it seems to me to include any area of science which has public controversy attached to the matter. AFAIK, that would include human sexuality.

 

I can only wonder how both issues would interact.

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Anonymouse wrote:robj101

Anonymouse wrote:

robj101 wrote:
Should they teach k-8th how to masturbate properly?

If you need to teach kids something even monkeys can figure out by themselves, then you have a problem education can't solve.

  Bonobo chimps figure out homosexual behavior all by themselves.  No one "teaches" them either, and no school curriculum is needed.  So ?

 

  Actually I don't have a problem with school children of a certain age being educated about homosexuality and what it is in the behavioral sense.  I don't see that it serves a purpose to perpetuate naivete about such matters.   I would include instruction relating to matters of civility that persons who are homosexual should not be subjected to persecution and abuse.   Beyond that, who knows ?   

  In an purely academic discussion of homosexuality I would try to avoid anything that I considered to be overly proselytizing be it  pro or con.    For me I would liken it to teaching school kids a course on comparative religion and in a manner that could best be described as informative yet dispassionate.

 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Bonobo

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Bonobo chimps figure out homosexual behavior all by themselves.  No one "teaches" them either, and no school curriculum is needed.  So ?

I didn't even know that about bonobos. I learned something !

Anyway, I'm hoping I never suggested that sex-ed in school should include a practical exam, or demonstration, like in that monty python sketch.

 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Actually I don't have a problem with school children of a certain age being educated about homosexuality and what it is in the behavioral sense.  I don't see that it serves a purpose to perpetuate naivete about such matters.   I would include instruction relating to matters of civility that persons who are homosexual should not be subjected to persecution and abuse.   Beyond that, who knows ?   

  In an purely academic discussion of homosexuality I would try to avoid anything that I considered to be overly proselytizing be it  pro or con.    For me I would liken it to teaching school kids a course on comparative religion and in a manner that could best be described as informative yet dispassionate.

Sounds sensible to me.

 

 


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Sandycane

Sandycane wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42722103#42722103

A law to prohibit teachers from discussing gay issues with children in Kindergarten through 8th grade.

I agree.

Children that young should not be discussing sexual issues with their teachers... especially in the bible belt.

Right, because as Harvey Milk once asked in a debate of a homophobe "Do you teach it like French?"

It would suck for children to know that there are people different than they are.

I don't know about what you would teach a kindergartner other than, "that person is who they are", but as they get older I don't see a problem with discussing sexual preference. It would tie into sex ed and both heterosexuals and gays need to know that both oral and anal sex can spread disease and that condoms are not a 100% safety, although they do reduce the risk.

You don't dump all that info on them at a young age. You start out with "That person is just like you and deserves to be happy just like you", Then the older they get depending on their individual maturity you introduce body mechanics.

What you don't do to any kid is keep them dumb and raise them to fear what they don't understand. Something unfortunately you seem to have suffered from at the hands of society when you grew up.

 

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Right, because

Brian37 wrote:

Right, because as Harvey Milk once asked in a debate of a homophobe "Do you teach it like French?"

It would suck for children to know that there are people different than they are.

I don't know about what you would teach a kindergartner other than, "that person is who they are", but as they get older I don't see a problem with discussing sexual preference. It would tie into sex ed and both heterosexuals and gays need to know that both oral and anal sex can spread disease and that condoms are not a 100% safety, although they do reduce the risk.

You don't dump all that info on them at a young age. You start out with "That person is just like you and deserves to be happy just like you", Then the older they get depending on their individual maturity you introduce body mechanics.

You know, Brian, while I was reading this I said to myself, 'Wow, Brian is actually saying something rational and coherent...'

But, then you said this

Quote:
What you don't do to any kid is keep them dumb and raise them to fear what they don't understand. Something unfortunately you seem to have suffered from at the hands of society when you grew up.

 and fucked up, again.

 Go away Brian. You're like an army of ants at a picnic....

and yes, I am comparing you to a pesky insect.

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Sandycane wrote:Brian37

Sandycane wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Right, because as Harvey Milk once asked in a debate of a homophobe "Do you teach it like French?"

It would suck for children to know that there are people different than they are.

I don't know about what you would teach a kindergartner other than, "that person is who they are", but as they get older I don't see a problem with discussing sexual preference. It would tie into sex ed and both heterosexuals and gays need to know that both oral and anal sex can spread disease and that condoms are not a 100% safety, although they do reduce the risk.

You don't dump all that info on them at a young age. You start out with "That person is just like you and deserves to be happy just like you", Then the older they get depending on their individual maturity you introduce body mechanics.

You know, Brian, while I was reading this I said to myself, 'Wow, Brian is actually saying something rational and coherent...'

But, then you said this

Quote:
What you don't do to any kid is keep them dumb and raise them to fear what they don't understand. Something unfortunately you seem to have suffered from at the hands of society when you grew up.

 and fucked up, again.

 Go away Brian. You're like an army of ants at a picnic....

and yes, I am comparing you to a pesky insect.

Back atcha.

You agree with the law or not?

 

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Anonymouse wrote:robj101

Anonymouse wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Where is your line*?

Learning is fun !

robj101 wrote:
Should they teach creationism?

As an example of magical thinking ? Sure. Should take about 5 minutes.

robj101 wrote:
Should they teach k-8th how to masturbate properly?

If you need to teach kids something even monkeys can figure out by themselves, then you have a problem education can't solve.

robj101 wrote:
Should they teach that we should dominate "lesser" folks so we can take their oil?

We can teach them just exactly why that's a bad idea. That's called history class, I think.

robj101 wrote:
Should the schools teach proper maintenance of a ps3 and x-box?

That would be discriminating against the poor kids who can't afford to buy one of those.

robj101 wrote:
Should the schools have a class on teaching kids how to text better and faster?

Teaching kids to get carpal tunnel syndrom in their thumbs ? Nah, let's not.

robj101 wrote:
lol This is a bit of what I was saying in the other thread about "lines". Teaching a child about sex was not always an accepted option, now it is and wallah we have more kids having kids.

Not sure if there's a connection there. Of all the kids I had sex-ed with, not a single one has managed to get someone pregnant yet.

robj101 wrote:
Some people think it's ok and some don;t. Once again I think this should be handled by the parents, but big brother is stepping up because the parents are stepping down.

Well, a law like that isn't going to create more responsible parents, now is it ?


 

Would a kid be more likely attempt sex if they are taught about it? Forget statistics and analytical bs for a moment, what does your common sense tell you?

"Well, a law like that isn't going to create more responsible parents, now is it ?"

Which is why I lay the blame at the feet of the parents..so they can step over it and keep doing whatever it is they are doing.

 

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Brian37 wrote:Back atcha.You

Brian37 wrote:

Back atcha.

You agree with the law or not?

 

I agree with Part (1), not Part (2)

I haven't seen a course labeled 'Sex Education' but, I would assume it entails descriptions of the human sexual reproductive process and not how to achieve an orgasm or how to masturbate. So, if this is the case, I don't see why gay relationships would be included in such a class.

However...

If you read the curriculum, in the section called 'Family Life', page 11, it says, ' analyze how respectful and tolerant behaviors can reduce prejudice, discrimination and bullying (e.g. race, culture, disabilities and gender)'

At the beginning of this section it says, 'Describe a variety of family structures (e.g. two parent, single parent, blended, extended, foster and adopted) and how they change over time. (page 8  )

I sincerely hope that some talented Gay Rights attorney takes this to court.

You can't teach a Family Life course and exclude discussion of homosexuality. You can't teach 'respectful and tolerant behavior ' while being disrespectful and intolerant of gays - well, I guess they can in Tennessee.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Oh and according to TCA 49

Oh and according to TCA 49 6-1303, a parent can opt-out their child from the above class.

Whoop-de-do.

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robj101 wrote: Would a kid

You know, the more I think about this, the angrier I become.

Other than specific aspects of human reproduction, I don't think other aspects of sexual relations should be taught in schools BUT, if they have a course that entails teaching respect and tolerance and family life in general, to exclude homosexuals is discrimination - to say the least.

 

Isn't this Bill unconstitutional??

How can they get away with this??

Christ, this is like excluding evolution from the curriculum - only worse because it involves actual, living human beings.

 

What would be the legal/proper process to go through if one wanted to protest this Bill?

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robj101 wrote:Would a kid be

robj101 wrote:
Would a kid be more likely attempt sex if they are taught about it? Forget statistics and analytical bs for a moment, what does your common sense tell you?

That having it explained to you by a teacher sucks all the mystery and excitement right out of it.

robj101 wrote:
Which is why I lay the blame at the feet of the parents..so they can step over it and keep doing whatever it is they are doing.

You are so right. I am going to kick the shit out of my parents right now. Lazy bastards have got it coming to them.

 


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Sandycane wrote: Isn't this

Sandycane wrote:

 

Isn't this Bill unconstitutional??

How can they get away with this??

Christ, this is like excluding evolution from the curriculum - only worse because it involves actual, living human beings.

 

What would be the legal/proper process to go through if one wanted to protest this Bill?

No it is not unconstitutional. They can teach whatever they want or don't want in public school. The only exception is when the explicitly religious comes up. Your only legal recourse is to contact your representatives and/or hold protests at the state capitol, and vote new people in next election.

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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Beyond Saving wrote:No it is

Beyond Saving wrote:

No it is not unconstitutional. They can teach whatever they want or don't want in public school. The only exception is when the explicitly religious comes up. Your only legal recourse is to contact your representatives and/or hold protests at the state capitol, and vote new people in next election.

In other words then, nothing legal can be done about it.

I found this ... apparently the same republicans who introduced this Bill also have another one in place to fix the conflict I mentioned earlier about the Family Life course teaching 'respect and tolerance'. Simple solution for them: they want to do away with the current Family Life course and replace it with one that coincides with this other Bill banning any and all mention of homosexuals in school.

 

Shit. I'm not gay but, I can't stand to see anyone discriminated against.

The bottom line here is: we are talking about Tennessee - land of good christians who do unto others, love thy neighbor, etc... as long as that person is a member of the same church they belong to.

Stupid fuckheads.

I don't have a dog in this fight so, there's not much I can do about it but, if I had a kid in school you better believe I would raise hell about it.

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robj101 wrote: Would a kid

robj101 wrote:

Would a kid be more likely attempt sex if they are taught about it? Forget statistics and analytical bs for a moment, what does your common sense tell you?

"Well, a law like that isn't going to create more responsible parents, now is it ?"

Which is why I lay the blame at the feet of the parents..so they can step over it and keep doing whatever it is they are doing.

 

The answer is no, Rob.  From growing up where sex education in the schools was illegal and it was illegal for even your doctor to talk to you about birth control if you were an unmarried woman (no such restriction on men, btw), no.  Not teaching kids about sex does not prevent them from having sex, unprotected sex, risky sex.  Just the opposite - you get all kinds of nonsense about douching with cola for pete's sake.

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/sperm.asp wrote:

Though Coca-Cola might have been a (slight) step up from plain water, douching with any liquid is far too often a case of attempting to close the barn door after the horse has got loose. By the time the douche is fired off, 100,000 or thereabouts sperm are swimming around in the uterus, already out of reach of any douche, even a fizzy one.

http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/conceive.asp

For a long list of other nonsense.  And no, I do not know enough about birth control - particularly the newer formulations and devices - to feel confident that my facts are current. 

Comprehensive sex education programs are more likely to prevent teen pregnancies when the students realize how easy it is for most women to get pregnant.  Yes, we all know or know of people who have had/are having problems conceiving.  For all too many young women, conceiving is all too easy.  It is also easy to contract a STD (sexually transmitted disease).  If I had known what risks I was taking - but I didn't, and so I was lucky, not smart.

Sex education should never be a substitute for parental involvement - but that is true for reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic as well. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Anonymouse wrote:robj101

Anonymouse wrote:

robj101 wrote:
Would a kid be more likely attempt sex if they are taught about it? Forget statistics and analytical bs for a moment, what does your common sense tell you?

That having it explained to you by a teacher sucks all the mystery and excitement right out of it.

robj101 wrote:
Which is why I lay the blame at the feet of the parents..so they can step over it and keep doing whatever it is they are doing.

You are so right. I am going to kick the shit out of my parents right now. Lazy bastards have got it coming to them.

 

And hearing it from a dad or mom somehow makes it desirable?

You would know better than I.

Maybe this is an isolated case and every bad parent in the world happens to be someone I know. Yea that must be it, really there is no problem, what am I running on about. Everythings fine, move along now nothing to see here.

Seriously you live in a rich neighborhood or something? All these welfare jockeys I know love their kids for one reason and one reason only. On the tax returns they love kids so much they even put down a couple extra on the form.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:Seriously you

robj101 wrote:

Seriously you live in a rich neighborhood or something? All these welfare jockeys I know love their kids for one reason and one reason only. On the tax returns they love kids so much they even put down a couple extra on the form.

 

Um, and you think these people will be responsible about educating their children about anything?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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 OK, I am still wanting to

 

OK, I am still wanting to know how they can put up a bill which shields teachers from any repercussions arising from controversial scientific subjects while at the same time preventing them from teaching about the fact that people like to cum.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/lif

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/apr/23/sex-education-julia-sweeney

 

Pay attention to the way the 9 year old asks about gay and lesbian couples. She merely states their names, no funny words, no name calling, no hint of thinking they are odd; just plain curiosity. Don't hide sexuality from children, teach them. 

 


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lalib

lalib wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/apr/23/sex-education-julia-sweeney

 

Pay attention to the way the 9 year old asks about gay and lesbian couples. She merely states their names, no funny words, no name calling, no hint of thinking they are odd; just plain curiosity. Don't hide sexuality from children, teach them. 

+1

Great article.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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cj wrote:robj101

cj wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Seriously you live in a rich neighborhood or something? All these welfare jockeys I know love their kids for one reason and one reason only. On the tax returns they love kids so much they even put down a couple extra on the form.

 

Um, and you think these people will be responsible about educating their children about anything?

 

Too true. I didn't think anyone would care to point that out. In some cases kids having babies is actually propogated by these people. It does seem like the welfare jockeys have more kids after all and as my grandmother used to say "ignorance breeds ignorance".

 

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Hell, lets start teaching

Hell, lets start teaching them at 5 about how to have sexual intercourse and the pleasure they can get from it, by the time they actually hit puberty they can be pro. They could have an orgy class where they all just get together and fuck, like recess ought to be! Fuck fuck fuckety fuck fuck!

 

 

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redneF wrote:lalib

redneF wrote:

lalib wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/apr/23/sex-education-julia-sweeney

 

Pay attention to the way the 9 year old asks about gay and lesbian couples. She merely states their names, no funny words, no name calling, no hint of thinking they are odd; just plain curiosity. Don't hide sexuality from children, teach them. 

+1

Great article.

Yeah, that was cute. I think the Mum handled it nicely.

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robj101 wrote:Hell, lets

robj101 wrote:

Hell, lets start teaching them at 5 about how to have sexual intercourse and the pleasure they can get from it, by the time they actually hit puberty they can be pro. They could have an orgy class where they all just get together and fuck, like recess ought to be! Fuck fuck fuckety fuck fuck!

 

 

It's a Brave New World we are living in. I don't care for it myself.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandycane wrote: In other

Sandycane wrote:

 In other words then, nothing legal can be done about it.

I found this ... apparently the same republicans who introduced this Bill also have another one in place to fix the conflict I mentioned earlier about the Family Life course teaching 'respect and tolerance'. Simple solution for them: they want to do away with the current Family Life course and replace it with one that coincides with this other Bill banning any and all mention of homosexuals in school.

 

Shit. I'm not gay but, I can't stand to see anyone discriminated against.

The bottom line here is: we are talking about Tennessee - land of good christians who do unto others, love thy neighbor, etc... as long as that person is a member of the same church they belong to.

Stupid fuckheads.

I don't have a dog in this fight so, there's not much I can do about it but, if I had a kid in school you better believe I would raise hell about it.

 

I agree, although in some respects the whole argument reminds me of the creationism/evolution debate. In the end, I don't think it matters a hill of beans, kids don't pay attention in school anyway. Do you even remember what your 6th grade teacher said? I don't. I was too busy thinking about Michelle, Tara and Carmen.

 

The only way anyone could effectively keep their children from learning about sex or homosexuality is to homeschool and never let the kid into public or on the internet. So while I understand the frustration with the petty dictators that are our politicians, I have a hard time getting too worked up over this particular issue. Especially since the schools are obviously failing to teach anything of true importance- have you seen anyone under the age of 40 trying to count back change? They can't do it without a computer. Schools have obviously failed miserably in teaching basic math, economics and history. As we continue into the future, those who are unable/unwilling to educate themselves will be at a severe disadvantage. Fortunately, the internet makes self-education easier than ever.

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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Ahhh, the voice of

Ahhh, the voice of reaason...

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

I agree, although in some respects the whole argument reminds me of the creationism/evolution debate. In the end, I don't think it matters a hill of beans, kids don't pay attention in school anyway. Do you even remember what your 6th grade teacher said? I don't. I was too busy thinking about Michelle, Tara and Carmen.

I don't remember anything my 6th grade teacher said - because he was so cute. All the girls had a crush on him.  I also don't recall any sex education class. Maybe I was just more interested in my Barbies.

 

Quote:
The only way anyone could effectively keep their children from learning about sex or homosexuality is to homeschool and never let the kid into public or on the internet. So while I understand the frustration with the petty dictators that are our politicians, I have a hard time getting too worked up over this particular issue. Especially since the schools are obviously failing to teach anything of true importance- have you seen anyone under the age of 40 trying to count back change? They can't do it without a computer. Schools have obviously failed miserably in teaching basic math, economics and history. As we continue into the future, those who are unable/unwilling to educate themselves will be at a severe disadvantage. Fortunately, the internet makes self-education easier than ever.

This is true. What bothers me the most about this issue is that they approve of heterosexual discussion but are prohibiting homosexual discussion. The sex part should be optional but, discussion of human non-sexual relationships should be mandatory education, imo.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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robj101 wrote:And hearing it

robj101 wrote:

And hearing it from a dad or mom somehow makes it desirable?

You would know better than I.

Pretty sure I didn't suggest that either. Same effect, really. But a teacher has to teach. Parents can, as you say, decide not to give a damn.

robj101 wrote:
Maybe this is an isolated case and every bad parent in the world happens to be someone I know. Yea that must be it, really there is no problem, what am I running on about. Everythings fine, move along now nothing to see here.

Never said there aren't any problems. I just don't think that sex-ed at school is one of them.

robj101 wrote:
Seriously you live in a rich neighborhood or something?

*looks out of the window and lols*

Actually, most of western europe is a "rich neighborhood", I guess, compared to the rest of the world.


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robj101 wrote:Hell, lets

robj101 wrote:

Hell, lets start teaching them at 5 about how to have sexual intercourse and the pleasure they can get from it, by the time they actually hit puberty they can be pro. They could have an orgy class where they all just get together and fuck, like recess ought to be! Fuck fuck fuckety fuck fuck!

I just tried to embed that sex-ed sketch from Monty Python...

Seems you have to be 18 to even look at it. Lol.

 

Edit: found one that didn't get flagged : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqI-28meTZ8

(Yeah, they cut out the "offensive" bit)