Queer people of faith

wingless_sephiroth
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Queer people of faith

As a total faggot, I sometimes wish I was born earlier, before the AIDS epidemic began. Why? Because, at that point in history, being queer also meant you were a skeptic and freethinker, if not a downright atheist. The guy you were fucking wouldn't have to take a condom out of his ass and go to church the next morning.

 

After the AIDS epidemic, we saw lots of gay men running back to faith. This is when the gay-friendly churches were founded, later to be follow by the gay Jewish and gay Muslim help groups.

 

As someone who was president of my university's queer organization, and someone who has been relatively active in the community (ie, sleeps around a a shitload), I will certainly say that queer people of faith outnumber those who are freethinkers. We even have queers who are "waiting for marriage." The only thing I'd say is notable is the high amounts of New Age faiths, such as Wicca.

 

Now, there was a good two years where my religion and my queerness overlapped, and that was because I couldn't think of a rational way to reject my religious beliefs, and my understanding of Islam had always been rather liberal anyway. But, when I did find a way out, oh boy did I jump off that boat.

 

So, honestly, for other queers here, or others with at least some vague familiarity with the community, does the high amount of religious folk these days bother you? Unlike me, not all of them want a way out of faith. Certainly they're not as dogmatic as the straight ones, but still, why do they resign themselves to religious groups, where 90% of the believers find their lifestyle and feelings an abomination, as opposed to a philosophical position that almost anyone who holds it affirms their rights? It's just moronic.


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wingless_sephiroth wrote:As

wingless_sephiroth wrote:
As a total faggot,

Hahahahaha. I lol'd. Oh, sorry. *cough*

wingless_sephiroth wrote:
This is when the gay-friendly churches were founded, later to be follow by the gay Jewish and gay Muslim help groups.

A gay Muslim is a walking contradiction, like Starbursts, which is a solid, but juicy like...yeah.

wingless_sephiroth wrote:
Certainly they're not as dogmatic as the straight ones, but still, why do they resign themselves to religious groups, where 90% of the believers find their lifestyle and feelings an abomination, as opposed to a philosophical position that almost anyone who holds it affirms their rights? It's just moronic.

Looks like you already answered your own question. "It's just moronic." Well, that's an oversimplification; you can say that they find God just as intuitive as a straight person, simple-minded, ignorant, lack of self awareness, etc.  

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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That's true, but they go

That's true, but they go nine years further than theism all the way to organized religions which have massacred them for thousands of years. And, I mean, on the topic of gay Muslims, there are entire works of literature out there defending that identity. What the fuck, man.


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Yeah, people can believe

Yeah, people can believe things that don't make any sense at all; we know that. But, something like this still feels....unfathomable. I can't imagine what is going on inside a gay Muslim's brain, subscribing to a religion who's followers constantly want to stone them to death. 

We can understand these things in terms of psychology and sociology. But, in terms of logic, it's just a fucking black hole.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:A gay

butterbattle wrote:

A gay Muslim is a walking contradiction...

Isn't there a picture of one under the definition of 'constantly looking over your shoulder', lol ?

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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wingless_sephiroth wrote:As

wingless_sephiroth wrote:

As a total faggot, I sometimes wish I was born earlier, before the AIDS epidemic began. Why? Because, at that point in history, being queer also meant you were a skeptic and freethinker, if not a downright atheist. The guy you were fucking wouldn't have to take a condom out of his ass and go to church the next morning.

 

After the AIDS epidemic, we saw lots of gay men running back to faith. This is when the gay-friendly churches were founded, later to be follow by the gay Jewish and gay Muslim help groups.

 

As someone who was president of my university's queer organization, and someone who has been relatively active in the community (ie, sleeps around a a shitload), I will certainly say that queer people of faith outnumber those who are freethinkers. We even have queers who are "waiting for marriage." The only thing I'd say is notable is the high amounts of New Age faiths, such as Wicca.

 

Now, there was a good two years where my religion and my queerness overlapped, and that was because I couldn't think of a rational way to reject my religious beliefs, and my understanding of Islam had always been rather liberal anyway. But, when I did find a way out, oh boy did I jump off that boat.

 

So, honestly, for other queers here, or others with at least some vague familiarity with the community, does the high amount of religious folk these days bother you? Unlike me, not all of them want a way out of faith. Certainly they're not as dogmatic as the straight ones, but still, why do they resign themselves to religious groups, where 90% of the believers find their lifestyle and feelings an abomination, as opposed to a philosophical position that almost anyone who holds it affirms their rights? It's just moronic.

Now I feel vindicated. You personally have not been around to see the battles I have had with fellow atheists, especially gay atheists.

You just used a pejorative to describe yourself. Some would say we should never joke about each other or ourselves even if we are not being hateful in our own humor.

You just called yourself "faggot". If that were coming from a REAL homophobia then yes, we should all condemn it.

Do all blacks who use the word "nigger" use it in the same context as those who hate them?

What is really going on is that we slap words on things we fear as a shortcut to create an enemy. But at the same time those who find that usage bigoted and absurd will take the same word and make a joke out of it, or a term of inderment.

WHICH IS WHY LABELS ARE FUCKED as a lagit way of judging individuals.

You are not bad because fellow gays might claim you shouldn't use the word "faggot", BECAUSE OF THE REAL ASSHOLES who still cant accept that sexuality is a range, not a script.

If I had a nickle for every time I was equated to Hitler or Stalin for merely being an atheist, I would make Bill Gates look like a street bum.

If there were a utopia, which there is not, then blasphemy would be accepted and teasing the norm and all of us would be in the carnival dunk tank. Since we are a sensitive species, and their is no utopia,  the only pragmatic thing we can do is to let the words fly, and allow the dunk tank to exist for those who accept it's necessity.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Lots of gays hate when I use

Lots of gays hate when I use that word. Except, the double standard is that lesbians took back 'dyke' but we gay men are left with a lousy synonym for joy.

 

I'm on the same page as you, Brian. I couldn't accept myself, and love myself, until I could call myself a faggot. Seriously. The term 'faggot' empowers me in an effeminate manner like no other. When I say it, I confirm all the phobia, political correctness, hatred, and social ostracisation that the word itself entails, and basically say, 'Fuck you. I know what it is, and this is what I am.'

 

My mother is a South African raised in the United States, but I'm not African-American in the slave-descent sense. I've seen many high profile African-Americans who used that word said it was a form of imprisonment for them, and they got past it. I can't comment on that, but I can comment on my own experience.

 

In conclusion, Brian, you can call me a 'faggot' any day of the week. It's my fucking spinach.


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wingless_sephiroth wrote:So,

wingless_sephiroth wrote:

So, honestly, for other queers here, or others with at least some vague familiarity with the community, does the high amount of religious folk these days bother you? Unlike me, not all of them want a way out of faith. Certainly they're not as dogmatic as the straight ones, but still, why do they resign themselves to religious groups, where 90% of the believers find their lifestyle and feelings an abomination, as opposed to a philosophical position that almost anyone who holds it affirms their rights? It's just moronic.

Hmm, good questions.

My boyfriend's a devout catholic, and I've sort of given up trying to talk sense to him on that particular subject. I'm actually proud of him for being out of the closet, as he catches quite a lot more flack for his gay-ness than I do.

Yeah, it's still moronic, but I'm not gonna tell him that. I love the guy.

 

Btw, you're an openly gay ex-muslim ? Major props to you.


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EWE COOTIES COOTIES, you're

EWE COOTIES COOTIES, you're different than me.....EWE!

Stop talking about your gayness, it may magically make me gay.

 

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Gay atheists are not the

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet. Christians I know assume people are gay and reject "christ" because they are gay. The whole "free will" thing makes a christian believe your gayness is a choice and through this choice you reject their jesus. When gays speak out about jesus it is not taken the same way, you are gay and hate jesus. I'm just saying what's in some of their minds, more of the fundamentalists than moderate.

 

As a straight man I have no such reason to reject this ideology so it is a bit harder for them to nail me with any reason to not believe other than I just don't.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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Brian37 wrote:EWE COOTIES

Brian37 wrote:

EWE COOTIES COOTIES, you're different than me.....EWE!

Stop talking about your gayness, it may magically make me gay.

 

 

I won't lie; as a fairy, I do have that ability.


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wingless_sephiroth

wingless_sephiroth wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

EWE COOTIES COOTIES, you're different than me.....EWE!

Stop talking about your gayness, it may magically make me gay.

 

 

I won't lie; as a fairy, I do have that ability.

Ok Tinkerbell.

You know you caused Katrina. It is people like you that are destroying Merka and creationism and our troops are getting killed because they have to worry about gays grabbing their ass while they are getting shot at.

Why wont people like you let Gawd fern Merkns have their phobias?

You are such a killjoy.

 

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robj101 wrote:Gay atheists

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet. Christians I know assume people are gay and reject "christ" because they are gay. The whole "free will" thing makes a christian believe your gayness is a choice and through this choice you reject their jesus. When gays speak out about jesus it is not taken the same way, you are gay and hate jesus. I'm just saying what's in some of their minds, more of the fundamentalists than moderate.

 

As a straight man I have no such reason to reject this ideology so it is a bit harder for them to nail me with any reason to not believe other than I just don't.

Wow, so this is how you suggest we help minorities, tell them to shut up? Remember that the next time a Christian equates you to Hitler and Stalin because you are an atheist.

I am glad you had no hand in the civil rights movement.

You probably didn't mean it the way it may come across, but I do not think helping others should involve coddling the insecurities and phobias of bigots.

Kudos to him for his bravery to be out both as being gay and atheist and screw any fuckhead who thinks they have the right by proxy of popular myth to deny him his rights.

Quote:
Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist

There is no "example" of an atheist. Just like any other label, people are a range, not an essence or perfect utopia.

I don't see how being gay and atheist and open about both is a problem. I think it is a plus because it shows liberal theists that their religion is not needed as a guide for morality AND it can also be used to remind both gay and straight liberal theists of the origin of the bigotry justified in their holy book. It may not change their minds but it does make them aware of the need to watch those in theism who still buy into the bigotry.

But even as such, there is no "example" of an atheist. There are a range of atheists who are educated and uneducated or less educated. Atheism is does not address your class or status or sexuality. Being gay only addresses your sexuality.  Neither makes you automatically good or bad.

No label automatically makes a person good or bad.

What WE should support is his individual rights, not pander to the insecurities of bigots.

 

 

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ahhhh... the 70s, when

ahhhh... the 70s, when gayness was still edgy.

 

Errr... why the sudden nostalgia?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:ahhhh... the

Kapkao wrote:

ahhhh... the 70s, when gayness was still edgy.

 

Errr... why the sudden nostalgia?

"Edgy" ?

I missed that decade, but now I'm nostalgic for it as well.


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Anonymouse wrote:Kapkao

Anonymouse wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

ahhhh... the 70s, when gayness was still edgy.

 

Errr... why the sudden nostalgia?

"Edgy" ?

I missed that decade, but now I'm nostalgic for it as well.

I.E. before everyone and their dog knew someoen who was not hetero Eye-wink

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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To this day I don't remember


To this day I don't remember which comedian said this, "Gays should be allowed to marry. They should be allowed to be just as miserable as heterosexuals".

 

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wingless_sephiroth wrote:As

wingless_sephiroth wrote:

As someone who was president of my university's queer organization, and someone who has been relatively active in the community (ie, sleeps around a a shitload), I will certainly say that queer people of faith outnumber those who are freethinkers. We even have queers who are "waiting for marriage." The only thing I'd say is notable is the high amounts of New Age faiths, such as Wicca.

Not gay or ex-muslim, but a while back I was good friends with a gay ex-muslim who grew up in New York. He's the one that broke me out of homophobia (mild, but still).

Anyway, he was/is quite a character, and he was completely obsessed with 'spiritual' stuff like faith healing, a spirit world, even evil spirits that you didn't want to mess with. He thought his hands would sometimes get warm from healing energy.

I don't know if that's typical, but he called himself a 'queen', and explained it to me as having a feminine personality in a male body. (He didn't identify as transgendered or trans-sexual, though. Not sure I know the difference to be honest.)

In any case, I wonder if his attraction to 'spiritual' stuff had anything to do with the similar attraction many women tend to have with the same. Like Oprah and all that jazz, though he was much further out there than she. Are there any women here who might have some insight on feminine personalities or feminine culture having attraction to spiritual or mystical beliefs? It does seem to be a correlation.

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Brian37 wrote:robj101

Brian37 wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet. Christians I know assume people are gay and reject "christ" because they are gay. The whole "free will" thing makes a christian believe your gayness is a choice and through this choice you reject their jesus. When gays speak out about jesus it is not taken the same way, you are gay and hate jesus. I'm just saying what's in some of their minds, more of the fundamentalists than moderate.

 

As a straight man I have no such reason to reject this ideology so it is a bit harder for them to nail me with any reason to not believe other than I just don't.

Wow, so this is how you suggest we help minorities, tell them to shut up? Remember that the next time a Christian equates you to Hitler and Stalin because you are an atheist.

I am glad you had no hand in the civil rights movement.

You probably didn't mean it the way it may come across, but I do not think helping others should involve coddling the insecurities and phobias of bigots.

Kudos to him for his bravery to be out both as being gay and atheist and screw any fuckhead who thinks they have the right by proxy of popular myth to deny him his rights.

Quote:
Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist

There is no "example" of an atheist. Just like any other label, people are a range, not an essence or perfect utopia.

I don't see how being gay and atheist and open about both is a problem. I think it is a plus because it shows liberal theists that their religion is not needed as a guide for morality AND it can also be used to remind both gay and straight liberal theists of the origin of the bigotry justified in their holy book. It may not change their minds but it does make them aware of the need to watch those in theism who still buy into the bigotry.

But even as such, there is no "example" of an atheist. There are a range of atheists who are educated and uneducated or less educated. Atheism is does not address your class or status or sexuality. Being gay only addresses your sexuality.  Neither makes you automatically good or bad.

No label automatically makes a person good or bad.

What WE should support is his individual rights, not pander to the insecurities of bigots.

 

 

You are always so defensive and take what I say out of context because you assume it's bad.

I am inferring that atheism has nothing to do with being gay and for gays to make it seem like it does makes atheism seem like an excuse to the religious. 

You have your opinion and I have mine, I don't trash yours and name call though I might disagree.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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 You can try to not pander

 You can try to not pander to the insecurity of bigots all day long while trying to force 15 different issues they disagree with down their throats. Like it or not atheists and gays are a minority. One issue at a time is easier to make them swallow. Either push for gay rights or push for atheism, don't wrap them in the same package.

Liberal thinking does not mean common sense is out.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote: You can try

robj101 wrote:

 You can try to not pander to the insecurity of bigots all day long while trying to force 15 different issues they disagree with down their throats. Like it or not atheists and gays are a minority. One issue at a time is easier to make them swallow. Either push for gay rights or push for atheism, don't wrap them in the same package.

Liberal thinking does not mean common sense is out.



I am going to side with Brian37 on this one, and it's not because of my faggotry. Follow me on this one:

1) You're making gay atheists a bigger problem than they actually are. From my own experience (and unfortunately, there are no statistics to back this up, so ignore this point if you'd like), they're a minority in the gay community, with traditional and New Age faiths dominating heavily. I will concede that we have a higher percentage of atheists than the rest of the population, though.

2) A person is allowed to state what they are, and how they are. If a person is a gay atheist, they're a gay atheist. They can explain the rest to the foaming mullah if they'd like. Sure, don't make the issues the same thing, but state who you fucking are.

3) Considering how often evolution and atheism is tied on this forum, it's odd you're complaining of syncretism. There are Christian clergymen in some of the largest and most influential churches who believe in evolution, but rarely do I see an atheist just debating for evolution without ever touching on the topic of atheism. One notable exception is I saw Richard Dawkins pull it off once.

4) I was queer and Muslim (bah) for a while because I refused the tie the two together. However, when I did become an atheist, yes, I continued to be careful about differing between the issues. But, the fact is, I can go up to any religious theist nut and state, "I am a gay atheist," and the argument unfolds just as well if I had only used one of those titles. Can people get confused? Yes, but it's not hard to guide them in the right direction by noting the fact that most atheists are heterosexual, and that most queers are religious. In fact, it takes one sentence, and possibly a second backup one.

5) An extension of the last point, being a gay atheist makes it much easier to debate than just an atheist. Why? Because when I discuss the issue with Muslims living in Pakistan, and when they discover I'm gay they're mainly concerned if I go on top or on bottom (and they feel terribly sick when I say 'bottom', although I'm 'versatile', TMI), I can go back to the fact that there is no objective reason to say what I just did was wrong, and that their Islam is not as self-evident as they say, and in fact contradicts biosociological truths. Admittedly, this is more difficult with Christians because of the theological system in place, but, Christianity is only going to be the second largest faith in a couple decades anyway.

Brian put it best when he said that silencing a minority just so you have an easier time in a debate is a little fucking stupid. If we spend less time complaining about people defending not just their ideology, but their entire identity, and spend more time working on rhetoric, maybe we wouldn't have to devolve to this position.

 


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natural

natural wrote:

wingless_sephiroth wrote:

As someone who was president of my university's queer organization, and someone who has been relatively active in the community (ie, sleeps around a a shitload), I will certainly say that queer people of faith outnumber those who are freethinkers. We even have queers who are "waiting for marriage." The only thing I'd say is notable is the high amounts of New Age faiths, such as Wicca.

Not gay or ex-muslim, but a while back I was good friends with a gay ex-muslim who grew up in New York. He's the one that broke me out of homophobia (mild, but still).

Anyway, he was/is quite a character, and he was completely obsessed with 'spiritual' stuff like faith healing, a spirit world, even evil spirits that you didn't want to mess with. He thought his hands would sometimes get warm from healing energy.

I don't know if that's typical, but he called himself a 'queen', and explained it to me as having a feminine personality in a male body. (He didn't identify as transgendered or trans-sexual, though. Not sure I know the difference to be honest.)

In any case, I wonder if his attraction to 'spiritual' stuff had anything to do with the similar attraction many women tend to have with the same. Like Oprah and all that jazz, though he was much further out there than she. Are there any women here who might have some insight on feminine personalities or feminine culture having attraction to spiritual or mystical beliefs? It does seem to be a correlation.




There are many gay males who are extremely masculine, and many lesbians who are extremely effeminate. So, there is no real rule on those things, but you bring up a good question; why is there a higher percentage of effeminate gay men than effeminate heterosexual men, and a higher percentage of masculine lesbians than masculine heterosexual women? In this humble queen's opinion, there are three forces at work here, in a three step process:

FIRST STEP: Biology-wise, gay male brains tend to resemble heterosexual female brains, and lesbian brains tend to resemble heterosexual male brains. Look up the study, it's pretty interesting.

SECOND STEP: Anthropology-wise, historical and contemporary homosexuals have generally realized that parts of their personalities resembled the opposite sex. Instead of just being slightly effeminate or masculine in demeanour, they've always quickly understood that part of them, was if you will, "like a woman" or "like a man." They drew the dots about their behaviour and realised what they seemed like to others.

THIRD STEP: Sociology-wise, once homosexuals do make the connection with the opposite sex (that they are ironically unattracted to), they follow many of the invented and constructed parts of the opposite sex's sociology. This can include mannerisms, religious fads, clothing, and interests.

Closest thing I can come up with. We'll see how it stands the test of time.
 

 


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robj101 wrote:Brian37

robj101 wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet. Christians I know assume people are gay and reject "christ" because they are gay. The whole "free will" thing makes a christian believe your gayness is a choice and through this choice you reject their jesus. When gays speak out about jesus it is not taken the same way, you are gay and hate jesus. I'm just saying what's in some of their minds, more of the fundamentalists than moderate.

 

As a straight man I have no such reason to reject this ideology so it is a bit harder for them to nail me with any reason to not believe other than I just don't.

Wow, so this is how you suggest we help minorities, tell them to shut up? Remember that the next time a Christian equates you to Hitler and Stalin because you are an atheist.

I am glad you had no hand in the civil rights movement.

You probably didn't mean it the way it may come across, but I do not think helping others should involve coddling the insecurities and phobias of bigots.

Kudos to him for his bravery to be out both as being gay and atheist and screw any fuckhead who thinks they have the right by proxy of popular myth to deny him his rights.

Quote:
Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist

There is no "example" of an atheist. Just like any other label, people are a range, not an essence or perfect utopia.

I don't see how being gay and atheist and open about both is a problem. I think it is a plus because it shows liberal theists that their religion is not needed as a guide for morality AND it can also be used to remind both gay and straight liberal theists of the origin of the bigotry justified in their holy book. It may not change their minds but it does make them aware of the need to watch those in theism who still buy into the bigotry.

But even as such, there is no "example" of an atheist. There are a range of atheists who are educated and uneducated or less educated. Atheism is does not address your class or status or sexuality. Being gay only addresses your sexuality.  Neither makes you automatically good or bad.

No label automatically makes a person good or bad.

What WE should support is his individual rights, not pander to the insecurities of bigots.

 

 

You are always so defensive and take what I say out of context because you assume it's bad.

I am inferring that atheism has nothing to do with being gay and for gays to make it seem like it does makes atheism seem like an excuse to the religious. 

You have your opinion and I have mine, I don't trash yours and name call though I might disagree.

Jean Calvin deserves to be called names. I don't recall calling you names. I do recall having a reaction to someone who IS a minority((you being an atheist) suggesting that other minorities should be quiet.

And if I was outright condemning you I wouldn't have said you might not have meant it the way some, including me, took it.

Atheism has nothing to do with being gay. RIGHT, and I even agreed with that. But what does that have to do with someone's human right to be open about what they are. It just so happens he is both.

Are you suggesting that no one claim that they are gay and atheist at the same time?

I do "trash" claims I disagree with. You sound like a theist demanding respect when the issue is not you.

Let me help you out a bit.

I agree that being gay is a separate issue than being atheist, but it IS possible for someone to be BOTH. Just like it is possible for an atheist to vote for Bush.

YES sexuality and position on a god ARE two different issues. I just don't see why you have a problem with people expressing their opinion openly.

If we go by your model of "why do they have to do it that way" and fear everything different than what we are used to, we wouldn't have modern society.

His being gay and also being atheist wont make your dick fall off, even if you don't like HOW he is selling himself.

Your view of how others should do things is your baggage, not theirs. If you have a pragmatic reason that can demonstrate WHY, their tactic is not a good tactic, then present it.

All I can tell you is that I will not support any tactic that coddles the insecurities of others.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I'm saying why don't you

I'm saying why don't you stand around with a sign that says "I'm gay I'm Atheist, I'm proc choice, I'm blah blah blah (insert more items the religious tend to have a problem with here)"

I'm saying work on one problem at a time. If you try to convince me that killing rats for fun is ok I will be very fukin' skeptical. If you try to tell me killing rats, sucking blood from goats and having sex with chickens is cool all in one I'm going to fukin run. Ok these are all wacky examples but you SHOULD get my drift here.

Either discuss atheism or discuss gay rights. This is only my opinion on what would help make things move along more fluidly. You want to bombard the majority with several issues at once it make progress difficult, especially when it may seem atheism has some correlation with being gay or being pro choice or whatever.

I hope this clears it up.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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have scientits proven that

have scientits proven that people can be gay? Obvioulsy they can or they wouldnt be. Its really funny when you think about how god actually dictated a verse to say not to be gay cause he made our biology so why not just make people only be straight. I think this shows just how man made it is the bible god comes across as someone who didnt create us and just showed up and said what I am going to do with you all. Seriously and isnt there a verse that says when you leave god he will make you gay cause that didnt happen to me or well any athesits cause its not a choice.


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:have

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

have scientits proven that people can be gay?

No, but they think they've located the 'Christian Gene'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCzbNkyXO50

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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robj101 wrote:Gay atheists

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet.

I disagree.

Christians in America are shouting out to 'Teach The Controversy'.

What's to say that what the bible claims about Adam and Eve is accurate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKAW96N-Vms&feature=related

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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redneF wrote:ymalmsteen887

redneF wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

have scientits proven that people can be gay?

No, but they think they've located the 'Christian Gene'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCzbNkyXO50

 

All the prove you really need is that people are in fact gay though


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redneF wrote:robj101

redneF wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet.

I disagree.

Christians in America are shouting out to 'Teach The Controversy'.

What's to say that what the bible claims about Adam and Eve is accurate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKAW96N-Vms&feature=related

 

Be gung-ho about it if you like, could argue this all day long but it wont accomplish anything. I didn't say to not discuss gay rights or atheism, I'm just saying when you shout that you are a gay atheist the christians etc will put the two together if it is correct or not. I already know some that do this and it's not just the gay thing. I live in the south and was a christian in the early part of my life and I'm surrounded by them. I do not know an atheist one, other than people online. But, at least I know how they the deeply religious think. You might get them to think on one issue or the other but when you add them together it is just too much for them to even want to contemplate.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:redneF

robj101 wrote:

redneF wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet.

I disagree.

Christians in America are shouting out to 'Teach The Controversy'.

What's to say that what the bible claims about Adam and Eve is accurate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKAW96N-Vms&feature=related

 

Be gung-ho about it if you like, could argue this all day long but it wont accomplish anything.

I was making a funny. Watch the video.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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redneF wrote:robj101

redneF wrote:

robj101 wrote:

redneF wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet.

I disagree.

Christians in America are shouting out to 'Teach The Controversy'.

What's to say that what the bible claims about Adam and Eve is accurate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKAW96N-Vms&feature=related

 

Be gung-ho about it if you like, could argue this all day long but it wont accomplish anything.

I was making a funny. Watch the video.

Yea i've seen the vid, snake needs a bigger role ../cough cough.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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robj101 wrote:Gay atheists

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet. Christians I know assume people are gay and reject "christ" because they are gay. The whole "free will" thing makes a christian believe your gayness is a choice and through this choice you reject their jesus. When gays speak out about jesus it is not taken the same way, you are gay and hate jesus. I'm just saying what's in some of their minds, more of the fundamentalists than moderate.

 

As a straight man I have no such reason to reject this ideology so it is a bit harder for them to nail me with any reason to not believe other than I just don't.

I'm going to throw my two cents in, with a bit of a background.  First off, it's a free fucking country, deal with it.  Secondly, when I was 16 my best friend told me he was 'interested' in guys, so that was my first experience with a homosexual person.  Nothing changed with our friendship for a long time, we remained best friends for years after.  Currently my best friend is one of his ex boyfriends.  There's quite a large gay community around here so there are very few examples of homophobia.  That being said, the one thing that really annoys me is when people get upset that a gay person didn't 'open up' to them about their sexuality.  It's as though people go around telling others what they like to do in the bedroom.  "Hi I'm Jim, I like to do my wife in the ass, and feet get me off, want to get a coffee?"  I understand that being gay is more than just a sexual preference ( though it really shouldn't be IMHO).  It is a whole under-culture thing.  Maybe because the majority of my gay friends are not flamboyant, or flaunt it.  I personally see any one gay guy as just a guy that has different preferences in the bedroom.  My closest friend will tell people that he's gay if asked a direct question, but otherwise he doesn't discuss his sexuality anymore than any other straight person I know.

Atheism is a different category all together, I can't think of too many examples where the two were flaunted together, and I've been to a few pride parades in Toronto.  It's a non issue really.

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:robj101

Ktulu wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet. Christians I know assume people are gay and reject "christ" because they are gay. The whole "free will" thing makes a christian believe your gayness is a choice and through this choice you reject their jesus. When gays speak out about jesus it is not taken the same way, you are gay and hate jesus. I'm just saying what's in some of their minds, more of the fundamentalists than moderate.

 

As a straight man I have no such reason to reject this ideology so it is a bit harder for them to nail me with any reason to not believe other than I just don't.

I'm going to throw my two cents in, with a bit of a background.  First off, it's a free fucking country, deal with it.  Secondly, when I was 16 my best friend told me he was 'interested' in guys, so that was my first experience with a homosexual person.  Nothing changed with our friendship for a long time, we remained best friends for years after.  Currently my best friend is one of his ex boyfriends.  There's quite a large gay community around here so there are very few examples of homophobia.  That being said, the one thing that really annoys me is when people get upset that a gay person didn't 'open up' to them about their sexuality.  It's as though people go around telling others what they like to do in the bedroom.  "Hi I'm Jim, I like to do my wife in the ass, and feet get me off, want to get a coffee?"  I understand that being gay is more than just a sexual preference ( though it really shouldn't be IMHO).  It is a whole under-culture thing.  Maybe because the majority of my gay friends are not flamboyant, or flaunt it.  I personally see any one gay guy as just a guy that has different preferences in the bedroom.  My closest friend will tell people that he's gay if asked a direct question, but otherwise he doesn't discuss his sexuality anymore than any other straight person I know.

Atheism is a different category all together, I can't think of too many examples where the two were flaunted together, and I've been to a few pride parades in Toronto.  It's a non issue really.

 

 

I am considerably drunk right now, but my belief is that the main reason it has become more than a "preference" is because of society's osctraicisation of such individuals. Although, either way, a community will always exist, perhaps its significance shouldn't be as strong as it is.

 

Point in case, when I came out, heterosexual friends were way more helpful than queer ones who either just wanted to fuck me, or involve me in their drama that didn't help my emotional growth at all.


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:have

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

have scientits proven that people can be gay? Obvioulsy they can or they wouldnt be. Its really funny when you think about how god actually dictated a verse to say not to be gay cause he made our biology so why not just make people only be straight. I think this shows just how man made it is the bible god comes across as someone who didnt create us and just showed up and said what I am going to do with you all. Seriously and isnt there a verse that says when you leave god he will make you gay cause that didnt happen to me or well any athesits cause its not a choice.

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/060508_lesbian.html

Quote:

Lesbian women respond differently than straight women when exposed to suspected sexual chemicals, according to a new brain imaging study. The finding builds on previous research that suggest that gay men responded in a way more similar to heterosexual women than heterosexual men when exposed to a synthetic chemical.

 

As I see it, it isn't very likely that anyone has control over their physical response to human sexual chemicals (pheromones).  If someone is turned on by the pheromones of the same sex, they didn't choose it.  So I see one's sexual orientation to be more genetic than environmental.

I realize you are still working through this, so I will give you my interpretation.  The bible was written by a bunch of men.  Not god/s/dess.  Not women.  Notice there is nothing about women having special women friends - as long as the women have lots of babies and keep their mouths shut, no one cared what women did with other women.  But men loving other men gave the person who wrote those verses the whillies.  So the author of those verses said it was sinful because he was uncomfortable.

Sexual orientation is also not an on/off switch.  It is a continuum.  Some people are strongly homosexual, some bisexual, some strongly heterosexual, but there are people who are in between as well.  Sometimes people don't admit it to themselves and they try to fit themselves into the definitions even if it is very uncomfortable for them.  It would be a lot easier for everyone if we just said "different strokes for different folks" and left each other alone.  As long as everyone involved are consenting adults.  And it is none of my business who is on top.

Now, for the god/s/dess business.  Yeah, if there is a large genetic component, god/s/dess made them that way and then told them it was sinful to be that way.  How fucked is that?  It is just as bad as god/s/dess giving us brains to use and then telling us to be deliberately ignorant.  Just as fucked.  I can't blame the goat herder for not knowing about pheromones.  But people now do know and can learn and can use their brains - deliberate ignorance should be the only sin.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Ktulu wrote:robj101

Ktulu wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Gay atheists are not the best example of an atheist and sometimes I wish they would be quiet. Christians I know assume people are gay and reject "christ" because they are gay. The whole "free will" thing makes a christian believe your gayness is a choice and through this choice you reject their jesus. When gays speak out about jesus it is not taken the same way, you are gay and hate jesus. I'm just saying what's in some of their minds, more of the fundamentalists than moderate.

 

As a straight man I have no such reason to reject this ideology so it is a bit harder for them to nail me with any reason to not believe other than I just don't.

I'm going to throw my two cents in, with a bit of a background.  First off, it's a free fucking country, deal with it.  Secondly, when I was 16 my best friend told me he was 'interested' in guys, so that was my first experience with a homosexual person.  Nothing changed with our friendship for a long time, we remained best friends for years after.  Currently my best friend is one of his ex boyfriends.  There's quite a large gay community around here so there are very few examples of homophobia.  That being said, the one thing that really annoys me is when people get upset that a gay person didn't 'open up' to them about their sexuality.  It's as though people go around telling others what they like to do in the bedroom.  "Hi I'm Jim, I like to do my wife in the ass, and feet get me off, want to get a coffee?"  I understand that being gay is more than just a sexual preference ( though it really shouldn't be IMHO).  It is a whole under-culture thing.  Maybe because the majority of my gay friends are not flamboyant, or flaunt it.  I personally see any one gay guy as just a guy that has different preferences in the bedroom.  My closest friend will tell people that he's gay if asked a direct question, but otherwise he doesn't discuss his sexuality anymore than any other straight person I know.

Atheism is a different category all together, I can't think of too many examples where the two were flaunted together, and I've been to a few pride parades in Toronto.  It's a non issue really.

 

It's a free fucking country? I had no idea. I'll try to work on dealing with that, is there a 10 step program?

 

 

 

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:I'm saying why

robj101 wrote:

I'm saying why don't you stand around with a sign that says "I'm gay I'm Atheist, I'm proc choice, I'm blah blah blah (insert more items the religious tend to have a problem with here)"

I'm saying work on one problem at a time. If you try to convince me that killing rats for fun is ok I will be very fukin' skeptical. If you try to tell me killing rats, sucking blood from goats and having sex with chickens is cool all in one I'm going to fukin run. Ok these are all wacky examples but you SHOULD get my drift here.

Either discuss atheism or discuss gay rights. This is only my opinion on what would help make things move along more fluidly. You want to bombard the majority with several issues at once it make progress difficult, especially when it may seem atheism has some correlation with being gay or being pro choice or whatever.

I hope this clears it up.

No I do not get your drift. First off once again, I don't think you meant to equate killing rats and having sex with chickens to homosexuality. No one is trying to convince you that homosexuality is fun. They are simply standing up for their rights.

Of course there is no correlation between atheism and other issues. Atheists are diverse.  BUT AGAIN, it is not up to us to be silent in pointing that out. You are allowing someone elses baggage and their insecurities to get to you. It is up to us to speak out.

I am an atheist and pro abortion rights. I am both. There may be an atheist who is anti abortion. They too would be BOTH. I don't think most people are that stupid once you point that out to them.

I do not understand you at all. I see no problem with someone saying "I am a gay atheist". That doesn't make you gay. And if someone accused you of being gay(as if it was a slur) because someone else said "I am a gay atheist", just say, "So what even if I was, nothing illegal or immoral about being gay".

Do you want to coddle the bigots or do you want to defend minorities?

 

 

 

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I reallly don't know what is

I reallly don't know what is going on with you Rob.

I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong. I think you have your own squeamish reaction to gays. My point is so what. All that means is that the thought of two men having sex is not a appealing to you. That is normal, but that doesn't make them abnormal.

I am not attracted to fat women. I cant stand seeing fat women on the beach. But so what. I realize that is simply my taste. Just like you cant help not being attracted to other men.

Some people like broccoli, I don't. That doesn't make the people who do, wrong. It just makes us different. Gays have the same rights as anyone else, period. Not liking HOW they express themselves only means that you are not into what they are into.

As Klutlu said "its a free country, deal with it".

 

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Brian37 wrote:I reallly

Brian37 wrote:

I reallly don't know what is going on with you Rob.

I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong. I think you have your own squeamish reaction to gays. My point is so what. All that means is that the thought of two men having sex is not a appealing to you. That is normal, but that doesn't make them abnormal.

I am not attracted to fat women. I cant stand seeing fat women on the beach. But so what. I realize that is simply my taste. Just like you cant help not being attracted to other men.

Some people like broccoli, I don't. That doesn't make the people who do, wrong. It just makes us different. Gays have the same rights as anyone else, period. Not liking HOW they express themselves only means that you are not into what they are into.

As Klutlu said "its a free country, deal with it".

 

I hate to say this but you are not half as intelligent as you think you are if this is really your answer.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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BryanYou have not understood

Bryan

You have not understood anything I have said, I'm trying to figure if it is because you are just deluding yourself and railing against reality or what.

Gay rights

Atheism

pro choice

All things most of us try to push.

Now lets look at the other side and think of things that might bother you.

pro life

religion in schools

death penalty

Now I am going to play as if I am for these things you do not like ( I am assuming you do not like these things)

"Hello, I am a christian and I am here to tell you about pro life, putting religion in schools and how we need a harsher death penalty."

Do you like this? Would it be easy to tolerate at least long enough to really contemplate any of it?

Now lets try it my way.

"Hello, I am here to tell you about pro life."

Maybe tomorrow it will be:

"Hello I am here to discuss religion in schools"

etc.

Do you fuking understand now? I can't believe I had to go to this much trouble to make such a simple and basic fuking point.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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robj101 wrote:It's a free

robj101 wrote:

It's a free fucking country? I had no idea. I'll try to work on dealing with that, is there a 10 step program?

I think you have to first admit you're an asshole, it worked for me. Smiling

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Ktulu wrote:robj101

Ktulu wrote:

robj101 wrote:

It's a free fucking country? I had no idea. I'll try to work on dealing with that, is there a 10 step program?

I think you have to first admit you're an asshole, it worked for me. Smiling

Everyone knows that and I don't pretend that I am not. ><

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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Nice post, cj.

cj wrote:

 

As I see it, it isn't very likely that anyone has control over their physical response to human sexual chemicals (pheromones).  If someone is turned on by the pheromones of the same sex, they didn't choose it.  So I see one's sexual orientation to be more genetic than environmental.

I realize you are still working through this, so I will give you my interpretation.  The bible was written by a bunch of men.  Not god/s/dess.  Not women.  Notice there is nothing about women having special women friends - as long as the women have lots of babies and keep their mouths shut, no one cared what women did with other women.  But men loving other men gave the person who wrote those verses the whillies.  So the author of those verses said it was sinful because he was uncomfortable.

Sexual orientation is also not an on/off switch.  It is a continuum.  Some people are strongly homosexual, some bisexual, some strongly heterosexual, but there are people who are in between as well.  Sometimes people don't admit it to themselves and they try to fit themselves into the definitions even if it is very uncomfortable for them.  It would be a lot easier for everyone if we just said "different strokes for different folks" and left each other alone.  As long as everyone involved are consenting adults.  And it is none of my business who is on top.

Now, for the god/s/dess business.  Yeah, if there is a large genetic component, god/s/dess made them that way and then told them it was sinful to be that way.  How fucked is that?  It is just as bad as god/s/dess giving us brains to use and then telling us to be deliberately ignorant.  Just as fucked.  I can't blame the goat herder for not knowing about pheromones.  But people now do know and can learn and can use their brains - deliberate ignorance should be the only sin.

 

 

Deliberate ignorance. I wonder if that's heriditary, too?

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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robj101 wrote:BryanYou have

robj101 wrote:

Bryan

You have not understood anything I have said, I'm trying to figure if it is because you are just deluding yourself and railing against reality or what.

Gay rights

Atheism

pro choice

All things most of us try to push.

Now lets look at the other side and think of things that might bother you.

pro life

religion in schools

death penalty

Now I am going to play as if I am for these things you do not like ( I am assuming you do not like these things)

"Hello, I am a christian and I am here to tell you about pro life, putting religion in schools and how we need a harsher death penalty."

Do you like this? Would it be easy to tolerate at least long enough to really contemplate any of it?

Now lets try it my way.

"Hello, I am here to tell you about pro life."

Maybe tomorrow it will be:

"Hello I am here to discuss religion in schools"

etc.

Do you fuking understand now? I can't believe I had to go to this much trouble to make such a simple and basic fuking point.

Well, I understand, and I think your strategy is patently bad.

Let's take a look at reality: There ARE people (large groups of them, with names like the Tea Party) full of nuts that push all sorts of ridiculous ideas all simultaneously at the same time.

And they are a massive political force. So........ What was your point again?

Pushing only one idea at a time may sound like a 'principled' way of doing things, but it fails when tried in reality. You end up only getting that one thing, and that's assuming you ARE successful. More often than not, the other guy has raided the fridge in the mean time, and you're stuck with the butter. Or worse, he offers you a grain of rice in exchange for the butter, and you're so starving you comply.

In reality, diversity wins. Try anything and everything, and try those things that worked more and more. That's how evolution works, that's how politics works, that's how reality works.

But, you know, stick to your one argument. Who knows, if you're persistent in just repeating your one argument over and over, we might eventually agree with you. Don't dilute yourself by trying to do anything different.

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Quote:I'm saying work on one

Quote:
I'm saying work on one problem at a time. If you try to convince me that killing rats for fun is ok I will be very fukin' skeptical. If you try to tell me killing rats, sucking blood from goats and having sex with chickens is cool all in one I'm going to fukin run. Ok these are all wacky examples but you SHOULD get my drift here

Those are your words Rob, not mine. In the same paragraph you put gays in with some sick shit. AND AGAIN, missed my point that I don't think you meant it like that.

I think you are simply saying you have a distaste for the behavior of others. I do too. The difference is that whatever I don't like about what someone else does, is my predilection, not theirs. It is my taste, not theirs. I simply accept that what they like and what I like is different, not wrong on either count. NO one has to behave the way I want them to.

Like I said, some people like broccoli and some don't. I don't but that doesn't make the people who do wrong because I don't like broccoli.

And as others have said here as well, thinking that people "should" separate issues, is a utopia and will never happen. Life is NOT a utopia, and people will combine labels and use them at the same time.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with gays saying "I am a gay atheist". There is nothing wrong with being gay or being an atheist, so if one is both, it is a consistent statement of what that person is.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:


Deliberate ignorance. I wonder if that's heriditary, too?

 

Thank you.  I think deliberate ignorance is mostly environmental.  If you don't have an intellectual impairment (if you don't already know, don't get uptight, I have a son who does have one), you can learn to learn regardless of your upbringing.  And many intellectually impaired can learn a few simple tests for validity when dealing with the world.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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cj wrote:Atheistextremist

cj wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Deliberate ignorance. I wonder if that's heriditary, too?

 

Thank you.  I think deliberate ignorance is mostly environmental.  If you don't have an intellectual impairment (if you don't already know, don't get uptight, I have a son who does have one), you can learn to learn regardless of your upbringing.  And many intellectually impaired can learn a few simple tests for validity when dealing with the world.

 

 

And in my sister and her friends' cases (they're on the higher functioning end of autistic-like symptoms), they do have intellectual impairments and still can understand the concepts of tolerance and superstition.


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natural wrote:robj101

natural wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Bryan

You have not understood anything I have said, I'm trying to figure if it is because you are just deluding yourself and railing against reality or what.

Gay rights

Atheism

pro choice

All things most of us try to push.

Now lets look at the other side and think of things that might bother you.

pro life

religion in schools

death penalty

Now I am going to play as if I am for these things you do not like ( I am assuming you do not like these things)

"Hello, I am a christian and I am here to tell you about pro life, putting religion in schools and how we need a harsher death penalty."

Do you like this? Would it be easy to tolerate at least long enough to really contemplate any of it?

Now lets try it my way.

"Hello, I am here to tell you about pro life."

Maybe tomorrow it will be:

"Hello I am here to discuss religion in schools"

etc.

Do you fuking understand now? I can't believe I had to go to this much trouble to make such a simple and basic fuking point.

Well, I understand, and I think your strategy is patently bad.

Let's take a look at reality: There ARE people (large groups of them, with names like the Tea Party) full of nuts that push all sorts of ridiculous ideas all simultaneously at the same time.

And they are a massive political force. So........ What was your point again?

Pushing only one idea at a time may sound like a 'principled' way of doing things, but it fails when tried in reality. You end up only getting that one thing, and that's assuming you ARE successful. More often than not, the other guy has raided the fridge in the mean time, and you're stuck with the butter. Or worse, he offers you a grain of rice in exchange for the butter, and you're so starving you comply.

In reality, diversity wins. Try anything and everything, and try those things that worked more and more. That's how evolution works, that's how politics works, that's how reality works.

But, you know, stick to your one argument. Who knows, if you're persistent in just repeating your one argument over and over, we might eventually agree with you. Don't dilute yourself by trying to do anything different.

The tea party is an excellent example, you should look around and reevaluate their current perfomance in the polls.

However to claim my strategy is patently bad based on one group of obvious knuckle dragging chimps is ..bad but so appropriate at the same time.

There is diversity and then there is complete reform. Some left people try to push a list of items on the public, they are known as the lunatic fringe. I'd be as happy to see these people locked up with the tea baggers as anything.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Brian37 wrote:Quote:I'm

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
I'm saying work on one problem at a time. If you try to convince me that killing rats for fun is ok I will be very fukin' skeptical. If you try to tell me killing rats, sucking blood from goats and having sex with chickens is cool all in one I'm going to fukin run. Ok these are all wacky examples but you SHOULD get my drift here

Those are your words Rob, not mine. In the same paragraph you put gays in with some sick shit. AND AGAIN, missed my point that I don't think you meant it like that.

I think you are simply saying you have a distaste for the behavior of others. I do too. The difference is that whatever I don't like about what someone else does, is my predilection, not theirs. It is my taste, not theirs. I simply accept that what they like and what I like is different, not wrong on either count. NO one has to behave the way I want them to.

Like I said, some people like broccoli and some don't. I don't but that doesn't make the people who do wrong because I don't like broccoli.

And as others have said here as well, thinking that people "should" separate issues, is a utopia and will never happen. Life is NOT a utopia, and people will combine labels and use them at the same time.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with gays saying "I am a gay atheist". There is nothing wrong with being gay or being an atheist, so if one is both, it is a consistent statement of what that person is.

 

 

Thats why I called you out. I doubt anyone here really thinks even for one moment I was actually comparing being gay to any of that. You fuking pussy bleeding heart bastard. So afraid to see anything unpolitically correct that might even possibly make being gay seem "bad". Trying to infer that being gay had anything to do with any of that caused you to totally miss the point. You are so far out in left field you can't see the ball even if it did fly out your way. I could go on but I'll let you stew in this.

Proofread and think before you accuse someone of some stupid shit.

"Oh maybe he was just making an example of the way the other side might be thinking instead of trash talking and actually comparing being gay to sucking blood from goats ..ooh I get it."

Yes I did some name calling, it's appropriate though.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:Thats why I

robj101 wrote:

Thats why I called you out. I doubt anyone here really thinks even for one moment I was actually comparing being gay to any of that. You fuking pussy bleeding heart bastard. So afraid to see anything unpolitically cis to Christianityorrect that might even possibly make being gay seem "bad". Trying to infer that being gay had anything to do with any of that caused you to totally miss the point. You are so far out in left field you can't see the ball even if it did fly out your way. I could go on but I'll let you stew in this.

Proofread and think before you accuse someone of some stupid shit.

"Oh maybe he was just making an example of the way the other side might be thinking instead of trash talking and actually comparing being gay to sucking blood from goats ..ooh I get it."

Yes I did some name calling, it's appropriate though.

 

    What Jean is to Christianity Brian is to political correctness.  

You know, someone who represents their pov in such an over the top manner that you have to stop and ask yourself if anyone could really be that bat shit insane about a cause.  If I wasn't already familiar with Brian I would swear that he was a poe.

  He's the self-appointed Messiah of political correctness.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Thats why I called you out. I doubt anyone here really thinks even for one moment I was actually comparing being gay to any of that. You fuking pussy bleeding heart bastard. So afraid to see anything unpolitically cis to Christianityorrect that might even possibly make being gay seem "bad". Trying to infer that being gay had anything to do with any of that caused you to totally miss the point. You are so far out in left field you can't see the ball even if it did fly out your way. I could go on but I'll let you stew in this.

Proofread and think before you accuse someone of some stupid shit.

"Oh maybe he was just making an example of the way the other side might be thinking instead of trash talking and actually comparing being gay to sucking blood from goats ..ooh I get it."

Yes I did some name calling, it's appropriate though.

 

    What Jean is to Christianity Brian is to political correctness.  

You know, someone who represents their pov in such an over the top manner that you have to stop and ask yourself if anyone could really be that bat shit insane about a cause.  If I wasn't already familiar with Brian I would swear that he was a poe.

Yea well political correctness is a pet peeve of mine. It's a form of fukin mind control.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:Yea well

robj101 wrote:

Yea well political correctness is a pet peeve of mine. It's a form of fukin mind control.

   Agreed.