Why we need God?

beardedinlair
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Why we need God?

Actual serious question. If there is a thread already about this, point it out to me please.

No bible talk please, too many words wasted on something that is so easy to debunk already. I mean why is the concept of God so prevalent in human nature? I would guess no other animals, even the ones who can communicate to some degree, have gods the way we do, so does that mean it is a verbal thing? A verbal meme?

I would have liked to ask this in the Redemption thread, but I think he's been scared off.

Children need the guidance of parents, maybe there are some non enlightened adults who need that kind of parenting?

I would like atheists to consider that this God inspiration thing might be necessary in some. I consider the atheist to be a mature self contained perspective, but what about those that don't have the facilities? What would you recommend to replace the damaging religions and gullible sheep?

I don't think it is enough to simply say, stop believing. Some truly aren't able to be accountable for themselves. What can they replace this "parentage" with, if they do not have the proper intellect or self awareness to be responsible?

As RRS people, I think it is incumbant on us to try and find an alternative. Personally, I tried going to a Buddhist temple for meditation and learning, but I found it a bit too deistic.

Anyway, just random thoughts.


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Namely fear of death. An

Namely fear of death. An uneducated mind is afraid.


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beardedinlair wrote: I mean

beardedinlair wrote:

 I mean why is the concept of God so prevalent in human nature? I would guess no other animals, even the ones who can communicate to some degree, have gods the way we do, so does that mean it is a verbal thing? A verbal meme?

The reasons are well understood in ancient history.

Starting as far back as cave dwellers. Their paintings depict 'animation'. That's the 'meme'.

Anthropomorphism.

Which 'evolved' into 'invisible spirits'. Natural 'phenomena' seemed to be 'animate'. Have a 'mind of it's own'.

Wind, rain, lightning, fire.

These things all seemed 'alive' to them.

That's were the meme started.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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beardedinlair wrote:Actual

beardedinlair wrote:

Actual serious question. If there is a thread already about this, point it out to me please.

No bible talk please, too many words wasted on something that is so easy to debunk already. I mean why is the concept of God so prevalent in human nature? I would guess no other animals, even the ones who can communicate to some degree, have gods the way we do, so does that mean it is a verbal thing? A verbal meme?

I would have liked to ask this in the Redemption thread, but I think he's been scared off.

Children need the guidance of parents, maybe there are some non enlightened adults who need that kind of parenting?

I would like atheists to consider that this God inspiration thing might be necessary in some. I consider the atheist to be a mature self contained perspective, but what about those that don't have the facilities? What would you recommend to replace the damaging religions and gullible sheep?

I don't think it is enough to simply say, stop believing. Some truly aren't able to be accountable for themselves. What can they replace this "parentage" with, if they do not have the proper intellect or self awareness to be responsible?

As RRS people, I think it is incumbant on us to try and find an alternative. Personally, I tried going to a Buddhist temple for meditation and learning, but I found it a bit too deistic.

Anyway, just random thoughts.

 

http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~ara/Manuscripts/AtranNorenzayanBBS.pdf

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Trust-Evolutionary-Landscape-Evolution/dp/0195178033/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302066427&sr=8-1

 

 


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I agree with earlier posts.

 

 

I think the core of religion may be pyschological essentialism that leads humans from the time they are children to identify entities as having some essential essence that's common - this allows generalisations of characteristics over groups.

It means kids can imagine anthropomorphic teddy bears share their feelings and it means we feel empathy for the characters in Toy Story 3 as they head for the furnace. I think the god concept is a product of this essentialism - we see god as like us - the man-god jesus in particular. Without this commonality with humanity, realistic relationships with a personal god like jesus would be inconceivable, regardless of what christians say.

The fact humans have a universal and instinctive default assumption that classes of things have predictable invisible essences is, in my opinion, the source of claims over the existence of spirit, as well as the mental template that allows humans to feel connection to anthropomorphic gods. 

On the subject of alternatives, I don't think they are necessary. Consider that most believers barely pay attention to god most the time, they just pray morning and night and ask for help when the shit hits the fan. A good dose of manning the fuck up is probably all that most theists require. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Without the afterlife idea

Without the afterlife idea religion would have already died. See what I did there?

Some people do need "god" though, there are some nutty folks whom this does help keep in line. There are also very stupid and low iq people who can't understand reality and a god simplifies it for them, gives them structure and keeps them happy.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Who is that?

I like something Dan Dennett said. A survival technique that was a benefit in natural selection was to look at any unknown as a threat. I live in a rural area with lots of woods. We have copperheads and if I hear a rustle or see a long stick my body reacts and pulls back. I have seen the same behavior when I walked my dog.

Dennett's point was natural selection benefits those species that ask "Who is that?" versus "What is that?". If it was a threat there was an immediate avoidance reaction. If not a threat no big deal.

Man comes along and can understand bigger things like floods & earthquakes, etc. He has evolved asking "Who did that?" Since he couldn't see anything, he said it was something invisible and powerful aka god.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Really good strong answers

Really good strong answers here that help my understanding. Thank you.

robj101 wrote:

Without the afterlife idea religion would have already died. See what I did there?

Some people do need "god" though, there are some nutty folks whom this does help keep in line. There are also very stupid and low iq people who can't understand reality and a god simplifies it for them, gives them structure and keeps them happy.

So, how can we get through to these people without insulting them? My first thought would be to simply replace one structure for another that might be less damaging, like "trading" the knife your toddler somehow grabbed for the toy in your hand.

The goal here is to take away the knife. If we insult their belief, no matter how justified, we are insulting their view of reality, thereby insulting them and driving them even harder on the defensive. (No matter how entertaining it is to do this.) Then they will get all self righteous and go try to convert other people. (The social God construct needs more people.)

 


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ex-minister wrote:I like

ex-minister wrote:

I like something Dan Dennett said. A survival technique that was a benefit in natural selection was to look at any unknown as a threat. I live in a rural area with lots of woods. We have copperheads and if I hear a rustle or see a long stick my body reacts and pulls back. I have seen the same behavior when I walked my dog.

Dennett's point was natural selection benefits those species that ask "Who is that?" versus "What is that?". If it was a threat there was an immediate avoidance reaction. If not a threat no big deal.

Man comes along and can understand bigger things like floods & earthquakes, etc. He has evolved asking "Who did that?" Since he couldn't see anything, he said it was something invisible and powerful aka god.

Ok, I follow this. The next stage is the people that ask "Who did that?" actually think they hear a corresponding answer or reply (due to the constant babble of the biological word processor naturally occuring in the brain), and combine this with a natural psychological ferver, fear feeling and veeohla, they have god. They share this with other people who then get a similiar phenomenon feeling (everyone loves a good ghost story), tack on some rhetoric and suddenly it's a community or social construct.

I think we need to try focusing on certain things and let other things slide. For the moment. It seems that when an atheist attacks the scripture, they feel if they can disprove that (which is easy enough to do) they can then somehow convince the believer his personal "ghost" experiences are invalid. Not going to happen. I think a good strategy would be to give the person their "ghost" experience and try and see if they are willing to accept the simple notion of a discredited bible.


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beardedinlair wrote:Really

beardedinlair wrote:

Really good strong answers here that help my understanding. Thank you.

robj101 wrote:

Without the afterlife idea religion would have already died. See what I did there?

Some people do need "god" though, there are some nutty folks whom this does help keep in line. There are also very stupid and low iq people who can't understand reality and a god simplifies it for them, gives them structure and keeps them happy.

So, how can we get through to these people without insulting them? My first thought would be to simply replace one structure for another that might be less damaging, like "trading" the knife your toddler somehow grabbed for the toy in your hand.

The goal here is to take away the knife. If we insult their belief, no matter how justified, we are insulting their view of reality, thereby insulting them and driving them even harder on the defensive. (No matter how entertaining it is to do this.) Then they will get all self righteous and go try to convert other people. (The social God construct needs more people.)

 

You don't just get through to everyone, religion will always be around but most people really are intelligent enough to cope with reality. We see that even in this age new cults can crop up at any time, all it takes is one con-man who can find these easily led people who are seeking "meaning" or whatever. I don't want to eradicate religion, just get it out of the mainstream, keep it at home. Religion has no place in influencing our politics our social strata or daily lives in general.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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beardedinlair wrote:So, how

beardedinlair wrote:

So, how can we get through to these people without insulting them?  

Fight fire, with fire.

By using other competing religions as an example. Shining a light on other religions, and putting them under a microscope.

Demonstrating the mechanisms and exploitation of human fallibilities that religions like Scientology use to 'trap' the minds of people, demonstrates clearly how gullible people can be.

 

Atheism is on the rise, in popular culture. More and more celebrities are becoming atheist, and becoming more vocal and openly mocking religion.

 

"Jesus can suck it!"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgHxutPlxk8

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Taking away the knife

beardedinlair wrote:

So, how can we get through to these people without insulting them? My first thought would be to simply replace one structure for another that might be less damaging, like "trading" the knife your toddler somehow grabbed for the toy in your hand.

The goal here is to take away the knife. If we insult their belief, no matter how justified, we are insulting their view of reality, thereby insulting them and driving them even harder on the defensive. (No matter how entertaining it is to do this.) Then they will get all self righteous and go try to convert other people. (The social God construct needs more people.)

 

I don't think the goal is to take away the knife, but take the knife away from our throats. People respecting my atheist stance is very important just like the public respects Mitt Romney's Mormon belief. The greater majority of Christians think the mormons are a cult. Yet it is OK with the public for him to run for office. 

Being a vocal atheist is a good thing. I don't need to tear down their structure, but if they know me as an atheist and see I am a decent person, that I struggle just as they do, have hopes just as they do, it becomes harder to dismiss me and call me a fool.

My mother has seen me go from a devout fundamentalist minister to an atheist. That certain must have blown her mind. We don't talk of these things but because it is who I am my point of view just comes out. She still loves me and I am sure she prays for my re-conversion, but she knows that I am still a good and decent person. I treat her with respect and care for her.  I don't want to take away her religion because at her age and with the loss of her husband of 50 years only a year ago I believe this gets her through the day. Deconversion is long and painful. She is one of the people that needs a god because her life and health are out of control for her. I can sympathize with that. I am kind of amazed how people can get comfort out of religion because it never, never, never did that for me. OK. It did a on very short spurts, but not for long and for the big things like death, my marriage falling apart, it was no support for at all. Atheism just fits for me. I don't have to get involved with pointless whys.

I think placing doubt is the best goal. I have a number of Christian friends. They can see "no god" works for me and cannot deny that. When we talk I tell them why I don't believe. Many have stopped trying. I used to be told I was going to hell, that has stopped as well.

So staying in the public debate is the goal. I want my stance to be respected and if that is getting angry and straight with some fundie asshole who knows everything I am all for that. But if they ain't shoving it down my throat, then I don't feel compelled to do the same. Religion kills for sure, but I don't have a lot of power to make humanity free from it. Hmmmm..... Now if there was just an atheist god I could pray to to make that happen.    

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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beardedinlair wrote:Children

beardedinlair wrote:

Children need the guidance of parents, maybe there are some non enlightened adults who need that kind of parenting?

I would like atheists to consider that this God inspiration thing might be necessary in some. I consider the atheist to be a mature self contained perspective, but what about those that don't have the facilities? What would you recommend to replace the damaging religions and gullible sheep?

I don't think it is enough to simply say, stop believing. Some truly aren't able to be accountable for themselves. What can they replace this "parentage" with, if they do not have the proper intellect or self awareness to be responsible?

As RRS people, I think it is incumbant on us to try and find an alternative. Personally, I tried going to a Buddhist temple for meditation and learning, but I found it a bit too deistic.

Anyway, just random thoughts.

IMnsHO, I think there are a few answers to all of this.

Yes, belief in a deity is anthropomorphic. There is some innate need or desire in some people to know just "Who" is behind something. It's back to the childhood or that which evolved in all prey animals to ascribe an actor or intentions where there may be none. Restated, if a prey animal hears rustling of leaves, it is best to assume a predator is stalking it rather than natural phenomenon such as wind. It could be fatal to attribute the actions of a predator to being that of wind. The ones that survived to reproduced were more prone to attributing an actor where there was none.

Children and immature adults do this too. If they find their play area torn up, "I wonder who did this?" They cannot understand that wind did it, or rain did it, or a treelimb fell on it, or an animal did it with no ill intentions. It's not very far from that to wondering just WHO created Grand Canyon or a shooting star or a rainbow.

Then, the general acceptance for a belief in these/this unseen actor/actors gives a bit of acceptance of believing all sorts of strange things. It's not a big leap from believing in God, to believing in the devil too, or to believing in angels or demons as their helpers. Not far from there to ghosts and fairies and such. It's not too big of a leap from there to believe that one or more of these is especially allied with you or you've got animosity from/with one or more. Then, from believing they're talking to you, to want you to do certain things (talking to you). I propose that if it weren't so accepted for "God to answer prayers" or to talk with the dead or with spirits, that such people as "Son of Sam" would not have as readily accepted that his dog was telling him things - including to kill people. If it were not accepted to talk to the unseen, he and others probably would have realized or had others take notice that they "just weren't right" before the situation became deadly.

Or, more common but probably more deadly, to believe that God is "telling" you or someone else that there are some sort of ethics that especially apply to them. For ethics to actually work in any society, everyone has to adhere to them all the time - the situation must be predictable. For instance, if people agree that it's wrong to torture and kill people, for that to always work, there cannot be any special thing that says, "Unless God tells you to". How can anyone know that God has told them? Oh yeah, unless the leaders/rulers tell the people that God has told him that those in the next town or country are evil and need to be killed to serve God's will... and it just so happens they have land and other things of value. That way, the rulers can have their people do evil things and believe they are doing GOOD.

Even that didn't do a LOT of harm on a global scale when it was tribes fighting with rocks. It did a lot more when we had armies fighting with guns and grenades. Now, that we have armies/nations fighting with various weapons of mass destruction, this belief in supernatural messages to do "God's will" could very well be the end of life on earth.

That is, unless we grow up, accept that these things are NOT real, that we do not believe in the childish anthropomorphisms, nor special messages from Him. (A man with big hands) That there is no such being with any "plans". Nor accept that we nor anyone else is receiving messages from this being... and get "help" for those who are going over the deep end before they get there.

And.... realize that everything that happens is not a "who dunnit". Part of the beauty of life is that some things are predictable with a degree of certainty, and some things are predictable given much more information than (I) have. I cannot predict when or where a shooting star is, nor where a rainbow is. It's beautiful, but appreciate it for what it is, or learn to appreciate the phenomenon behind the beauty - not "who" is behind it.

Finally, "God dunnit" or "It was God's will" is just a lazy non-answer, and something that utterly stops investigation.

How's my proselytizing? Call 1-800-FANATIC

Beth


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maybe

Maybe its because there actually is a god...just saying


Presuppositionalist
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 lllllllllllllllllllllllllll

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Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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runner wrote:Maybe its

runner wrote:

Maybe its because there actually is a god...just saying

How does that make sense?

We 'need' a God, or feel we do, because there is one??? Where is the logic in that?

Or there is a God because we need one? A bit more intelligible, but doesn't work with the original question.

What does make sense is that people have assumed there must be a God, or some kind of 'higher power', because we instinctively feel the need for one, or at least most of us once used to feel that way. That would be by analogy with the acceptance of authority figures, such as our parents when we are young children, a teacher in school, and a King/Emperor/Caesor/Pharoah in adult life. The equivalent in many animals that live in groups is the 'alpha male', the pack leader. A breeding line that looks to a 'leader' who serves to coordinate the group gives that group an advantage in hunting, and protecting its young and breeding females, so will tend to 'win' in the natural selection game.

An actual God is now seen to be highly implausible, and totally unhelpful in explaining why things are the way they are.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

 llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

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Two takes on this:

1. Presupp, you need to keep taking your medication.

2. The most intelligent/intelligible post you've made in the last week or so.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Why do y'all capitalize the

Why do y'all capitalize the word "god"?


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Ciarin wrote:Why do y'all

Ciarin wrote:

Why do y'all capitalize the word "god"?

 

I don't know why they do.  I only capitalize god when it is at the start of a sentence.  And I usually reference god/s/dess - trying to hit all the beliefs in one conglomeration.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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I think there two main

I think there two main reasons people feel the need god/religion. They both have to do with indulging narcissism.

People are scared to death of their own mortality. Religion provides some measure of relief by creating a delusion that they can live forever and that Mr. Invisible will help them when they are sick or in need. Worship and prayer help them indulge in this fantasy.

People want to think they are moral(aka good) individuals. Religion allow people to choose any morality they want and then have a silent god that approves and forgives any behavior. So they can treat their fellow person like shit, live in a way that is destructive to society and still believe they are good because Mr. Silent never says otherwise.

People also want to convince others they are moral to gain social and economic advantages. Religion is a tool to do this. This is why politicians use religion so much.

 

beardedinlair wrote:

What would you recommend to replace the damaging religions and gullible sheep?

An education that includes science, logic and reasoning. Also medication, marijuana and transcranial magnetic stimulation.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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cj wrote:Ciarin wrote:Why do

cj wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

Why do y'all capitalize the word "god"?

 

I don't know why they do.  I only capitalize god when it is at the start of a sentence.  And I usually reference god/s/dess - trying to hit all the beliefs in one conglomeration.

 

If we're talking about the Christian god maybe we should just use Yahweh or the Islamic god Allah.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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EXC wrote:cj wrote:Ciarin

EXC wrote:

cj wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

Why do y'all capitalize the word "god"?

I don't know why they do.  I only capitalize god when it is at the start of a sentence.  And I usually reference god/s/dess - trying to hit all the beliefs in one conglomeration.

If we're talking about the Christian god maybe we should just use Yahweh or the Islamic god Allah.

 

But then you have left out the Hindus and Wiccans and a slew of others.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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You've already left them out

You've already left them out because wiccans and hindus believe in gods and goddesses, each of whom have an actual name.


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They're free to start a

They're free to start a thread about their respective gods any time they wish.   If a Hindu wishes to discuss Kali or Ganesh on this forum who is stopping them ?   Same for Wiccans.   What's the problem ?

"Most people are ass holes." Jesus of Nazareth


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maybe cj doesn't want you to

maybe cj doesn't want you to leave people out. I'm only guessing though.


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Ciarin wrote:maybe cj

Ciarin wrote:

maybe cj doesn't want you to leave people out. I'm only guessing though.

 

CJ doesn't give a rat's ass about how other people post, but she likes to be inclusive in her scorn.

 

How's that?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Hi OPIE

Hi OPIE,

You simply spat out the vomit that has been fed to you. I'm mean really, can't you think for yourself? Why simply copy what you've heard? Come up with new assumptions and garbage.

God is not sought via human nature. The Bible says that NOBODY seeks God. It goes on to give logical means as to why nobody seeks, God, because nobody is good, no not one (Romans 3:10-12).

And logically speaking, all theists who worship a god other then the true God, would logically be worshipping a false god, thus also being atheist. So while pagan atheists worship their god of their self, others may worship a tree in their backyard.

Now look, I know atheism as a worldview causes the death of brain cells. But next time, try, just try to spit out your own vomit, instead of swallowing old vomit just to spit it out again.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


Jean Chauvin
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Hey Bob

Hey Bob,

This was actually funny. I mean, wow. Atheists and liberals tend to not be skilled in humor, usually it's the christians and conservatives. But wow, an out of the blue rarity.

Regarding my argument that a false god is in essence atheism. Look at the witch clarin. She loves you guys. Shall I say Exhibit A?

I hope you're having a great easter doing your wickedness. Happy Easter reprobate.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


robj101
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Jean Chauvin wrote:Hey

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hey Bob,

This was actually funny. I mean, wow. Atheists and liberals tend to not be skilled in humor, usually it's the christians and conservatives. But wow, an out of the blue rarity.

Regarding my argument that a false god is in essence atheism. Look at the witch clarin. She loves you guys. Shall I say Exhibit A?

I hope you're having a great easter doing your wickedness. Happy Easter reprobate.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Christians and conservatives good with humor? Yes, yes they are they don't even have to try.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


luca
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Re: Why we need God?

I suppose it's because we need explanations. I mean, if you could manipulate the environment around you, you would be more powerful, and so you would have more chance to survive (understand where I'm going?). To have a god also means you mean something in the universe, means that you are not only a meatbag that could be crushed from a random meteorite without anyone having noticed your existance (so the two arguments are: ignorance and death). The society where you are born obviously would change what this supernatural realm would do or mean for you (but really it's all about guilt and punishing). But death would enforce this cycle electing dead leaders as gods (hope you don't need examples...).