Atheists Respond: Tell me the Internal Logical Inconsistencies in My Doctrine
I haven’t posted here in many months but have still been following most of the threads - trying to understand more of the ideas floating around. In my previous thread >> http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/27471 (from a LONG time ago). I think we came to somewhat of an agreement that in the case of my particular theistic belief (which I would roughly describe as Fundamental Reformed Calvinist Evangelical Christianity)
1) That my belief in my God could not be dis-proven
2) That my belief in my God could not be Proven
The main reason given by people for this conclusion was the fact that some aspects of my God claim are simply un-testable by science and will always remain un-testable. It is the same reason the invisible pink unicorn can never be disproven. And, even if a seemingly infinitely powerful being did appear before us claiming to be my God, and was able to demonstrate seemingly impossible ‘miracles’, this would still not PROVE that my God exists –Because it still could be any number of possible alternative explanations – such as it being an advanced alien, with superior technology that is able to do things that we think are impossible based on our current (limited) understanding of physics.
That being said, My belief in God is fundamentally based on 2 initial premises/axioms:
1) The unified Trinitarian God of the bible exists
2) This God has revealed himself truthfully in the Bible (within the context of history and the context of the various authors)
Everything else surrounding my theistic belief, about God, life now, and life after death are all inferences based on these 2 initial premises being true.
As I have already said, based on previous discussions there is little point proceeding further discussing the truthfulness of Premise 1 - as the existence of my God cannot be absolutely proven or disproven using science. Therefore these 2 initial premises will remain as naked assertions.
So, I do not intend to try and prove either of these 2 initial premises – The burden of proof continues to rest on me.
Instead I simply intend to present a clear correct general understanding of the Bible says – all of which come as inferences from Premise 2 being true. After I outline what I believe I hope that you will be able to tear apart the logical inconsistencies you find in my doctrine and provide good criticism. I am still confident that my beliefs (assuming my initial premises are true) are internally logically consistent and also reflect accurately on what we see in the world that we live in. If you feel all I am doing in this thread is preaching and bible bashing - then feel free to go on to the next thread – I do not intend to come across like this - I am only presenting this information about what I believe so that we can have something to talk about – as you do not currently know what I believe yet. A lot of what I say may well be common knowledge to you, but I say it anyway only to clearly distinguish what I believe, from the many other false sects of Christianity. I look forwards to hearing and discussing your critical and sceptical analysis of my doctrine.
Now I could give you Bible references to support my correct understanding of the Bible. But I am not going to bother (unless it is specifically requested), primarily because from my experience, you guys couldn’t care less about the Bible, and will just tell me where to shove it. Regardless I am the Theist, and by definition you are NOT-Theist – therefore you don’t really care where my claims come from – your position is simply to dismiss any theist position. So without further delay - My inferences that flow from Premise 2:
> God has not revealed himself to us completely. He has only revealed what we NEED to know, NOT everything we would like to know. We cannot understand everything about God - as we are not God. There will always remain many unanswered questions about God – I won’t be able to answer all your questions. I am only able to answer questions regarding my god insomuch as God has revealed himself to me. Beyond this is mere speculation.
> Not all professing Christians are Christians – There are many false Christian teachings / cults /sects around the world (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics etc… to name a few as broad generalisation). We will only know if anyone was/is a true Christian when we are judged. We do not know what people think inside like God does. The existence of these distorted ‘religions’ makes no impact on the validity of true Christianity. The bible supports the existence of such cults and says this is to be expected.
> All Non-Christians are Atheists (whether they recognise it or not) All other ‘gods’ are fake. People worship all other kinds of created things (Allah, Ra, Spaghetti Monsters, Science, Reason, Logic … etc) rather than the only real True God. Therefore they reject a belief in the only God.
> All Atheists/Non-Christians Hate God – whether they think he exists or not. Non-Christians are unable to do anything else but Hate God, they cannot freely choose to do good things (God defines what Good is not us) – No-one has ‘free will’ (Ability to choose between right and wrong) – we can only choose wrong- only do evil things all the time. People are inherently evil from conception and are born with a selfish nature which is against God. This does not remove our personal responsibility for the evil actions they carry out as they do what they want to do – which is evil. Every adult, child, baby and foetus rightly deserves God’s continual rejection as judgement for our continual rejection of Him by living in opposition to Him. God remains fair and merciful in his judgement – Judging people based on what they DO with what they are able to KNOW.
> Being a ‘good’ person will get you a first class ticket to Hell. Nobody is good everyone is evil so deceiving ourselves into thinking we do good when we actually do evil is a gross evil. No-one deserves to go to heaven nor can they earn their way there by earning brownie points for God. The only way is to trust God will continue to keep his promise to save those who trust him. I’m sure this line has been done to death - Enough said.
> God does NOT reveal himself clearly - So that people will NOT be able to understand Him. God has intentionally made the message of the Bible in such a way so that it will sound completely ridiculous, absurd and foolish to some people – Specifically so that these people will NOT be able to understand Him. Why does God do this? For the same reason Jesus spoke in parables - Primarily because God has a “No Arrogant Jerks in Heaven” Policy (His house – His Rules). God is a jealous God, and hates people who think they know better than him when clearly they don’t (nor can they). So he makes his message seem foolish to these people so that in their pride and great ‘knowledge’ they will fail to understand Him and be further hardened against God – and later they will be rightly judged for that - and their ‘knowledge’ will result in EPIC fail – All of this will bring great glory to God. So the main reason why I am not trying to logically prove to you why my God exists is because the bible is clear that this would be a complete waste of time – God purposefully goes against Occam's razor.
> All Atheists/Non-Christians CANNOT understand the Bible or God. They are completely unable to see the Bible as anything other than foolishness, because God allows their minds to stay hardened against Him. They are unable to choose to believe in God or think anything. Only God can allow us to understand him.
> God is Supremely Powerful - He has, and always will be, far more powerful than the entire universe, although he is not infinitely powerful in the sense that there are things he cannot do. He cannot deny his own unchanging character which is just, merciful, loving, faithful, creative, relational, ordered, truthful etc... He cannot lie; he cannot fail at fulfilling his promises, etc….
> God is everywhere at once - both inside and outside of space/time
> God created and is in control of everything that exists. All the laws of physics, the movement of every electron and atom, every breath we take, every earthquake, every time the earth spins, every transfer of energy only occurs because God allows it to occur. The only reason we are able to develop scientific laws is because God is a God of order and has decided to keep the laws of physics realitivly consistent (Although this doesn’t and hasn’t prevented him from being able to suspend these laws in order to achieve his purposes).
> God didn’t need to create the Universe – He did it for his own Glory. God wasn’t lonely and needing some toys to play with in his sandbox – He was in a perfectly content and satisfying Trinitarian relationship with himself. He created the universe because it is in his nature to create. He created the universe knowing and planning that Adam and Eve would sin and that ultimately this would bring Epic Glory to God the Son (Jesus) and in turn to God the Father – The universe is merely the result of a grand divine gift/birthday present to himself. God created the universe for Himself so he isn’t our personal genie wanting to grant us all our wishes – God does whatever he wants to do – whatever is for his own benifit.
> The world is Screwed up because we all Hate God – We the human race has united in opposition to God and God has and continues to fairly judge us for this, in several ways.
- He allows us to live in rebellion to him and in effect screw up our own lives and the lives of those around us throughout selfishness.
- He has cursed all of the once perfect creation to decay, be hostile and cause destruction. All natural disasters, death, and violence is a result of God’s punishment, while we still remain responsible for it.
- He allows his judgement to be carried out by many different created entities which all remain under his control and who’s judgement He is ultimately responsible for. God permits Satan to have a small degree of supernatural powers to cause destruction on the world, God uses the laws of physics to cause bushfires, earthquakes and floods. God uses world leaders and powers (both good and bad) to administer His justice.
> Its not God’s Plan to save everyone – God decides to allow some to be fairly Judged for their sin so that the grandness of his mercy would be more clearly displayed and he would be Glorified even more.
That will do for now… I may add in more points at another time if this thread takes off.
I’m sure if you have read this far most of you probably think my God is a Tyrannical, Masochistic, Nazi, Evil Dictator (or something to that effect). The Bible says I am to expect this if you are not a Christian, but our personal feeling and opinions have no impact on the validity of a theory (Just because I don’t like gravity cos it stops me flying – don’t make it not exist) – so I would like to hear what you have to say regarding the internal logical inconsistencies of my God, or the inconsistencies you find between my theory and what we see in reality.
Sorry for the EPIC post - just though i'd put everything down in one place
Also if you think I am a Poe or something else you are greatly mistaken - these are my genuine beliefs.