Theist lay out your evidence.

robj101
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Theist lay out your evidence.

I'm actually sick of trying to debate christians, it's boring and it always comes down to faith or "I just want to believe it" in the end. I do however have an interest in folks who say things like "a series of events occured that made me go to jesus". What events? Any theists care to share this "evidence"? I can only assume they take it as evidence because it seems to make them believe this stuff and for me it would take real evidence.

So what exactly happened in your life that made you believe? I'm hoping to hear something that can't actually be attributed to chance or hard work but I imagine this little thread will die off quickly.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:So what

robj101 wrote:

So what exactly happened in your life that made you believe? I'm hoping to hear something that can't actually be attributed to chance or hard work but I imagine this little thread will die off quickly.

Nothing "happened" per se. I've never seen a burning bush or a man walking on water or anything like that.

But when you say "chance", are you talking about what some would attribute to miracles as things being attributed that happened by chance?

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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Wowzers1 wrote:robj101

Wowzers1 wrote:

robj101 wrote:

So what exactly happened in your life that made you believe? I'm hoping to hear something that can't actually be attributed to chance or hard work but I imagine this little thread will die off quickly.

Nothing "happened" per se. I've never seen a burning bush or a man walking on water or anything like that.

But when you say "chance", are you talking about what some would attribute to miracles as things being attributed that happened by chance?

Yes, a random occurence the religious may take as a "sign". I want to hear about these in detail not just "something happened to me that made me believe"..let's hear some details.

 

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:Wowzers1

robj101 wrote:

Yes, a random occurence the religious may take as a "sign". I want to hear about these in detail not just "something happened to me that made me believe"..let's hear some details.

I suppose  you *could* attribute many things to chance...the question is then how far does one extend chance before one would consider something to not be purely chance?

But if you must know...my grandmother is a very devout woman. She's more fundamental than I, but nevertheless she came down with cancer... a fairly advanced for of leukemia. She was in pretty bad shape, and was ready to die. The doctors told her chemo would likely only extend her life a few months and she'd be sick for that time considering the amount of chemo she'd have to take. She weighed the options, and then opted not to take chemo. She prayed and prayed, along with many others, for healing. We were all ready for her to die, but we had hope that maybe a miracle could happen... then the next time she went to the doctor, the doctor could find no trace of cancer in her body. Now for those that prayed and knew her well, this seemed like a miracle.

As a sign, well I don't know... you decide. I'm not the sort of person that thinks signs are what makes one believe. Signs were given by Jesus in the New Testament and people still didn't believe. This is a theological discussion though.

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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I find it interesting that

I find it interesting that you describe your grandmother as "more fundamental" than you are. Why aren't you more fundamental? If what you believe it is the absolute truth than why would you be anything other than a fundamentalist?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Fairly typical example and

Fairly typical example and shows some bias. If you were to contract cancer and it suddenly just seemed to "disappear" and you were prone to belief in a god it would seem your prayers were answered. The idea that your body simply took care of it or whatever just doesn't sit well enough. Many things happen in life that we can't explain and it seems you are saying if we can't explain it we should give credit to the divine over actual investigation and giving thought to it.

Did the doctors attribute it to a god as well, or did they perhaps simply smile and nod when you said it was god? Granted there are plenty of religious doctors as well but most of them are doctors because they study to "heal" people through medical means. You don't call people who pray for cures "doctors".

 

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I am still hoping to hear

I am still hoping to hear something that could not be chance.

I have a possible example and I have said this before but it actually happened. A good friend told me he thanked jesus for getting a job, I asked him if he did not fill out a job app and if perhaps the management didn't simply think he was qualified for said job. Now if he had not filled out a job app and had many people randomly calling him to tell him they wanted to give him a job I might have been a bit dumbfounded and definitely would have to give it some serious thought. As it stands nothing I have heard has made my brain click over more than once to realize a rational natural explanation. If a god existed he would perform such miracles in a way that would truly define an indisputable "miracle".

I am still hoping to hear something that could not be chance.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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In my case I was about three

In my case I was about three and remember waking up and some dark figure with a beard lifted me from the bed but then put me back again.  This likely formulated in my young brain from the old prayer that parents taught: Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake I pray the lord my soul to take.  I remember being at my grandmother's and my uncle who was 6 or 7 years older than me and I were looking for 4 leaf clovers. I said that I had found a five leaf clover, He said that hewould beat my ass if I did not have one when he got there. I prayed GOd help me.  I looked down and found the only five leaf clover I have to this date seen. He called grandma who checked it out and put it in a book.  I was 6 or 7.  She was a good baptist. But onetime she took me into the woods and started showing me plants and things. She said that she was a witch.  When I was 14 I was a hippie and playing in rock groups. I had some idea of a higher power from the previous events mentioned but not much religious specificity.  A friend asked me to play for the Baptist chruch God Squad. There would be a lot of traveling and performances. I said I'd play bass.  I would do LSD and go to the church services and on tour playing Jesus music. I night a minister who was a step father a girl friend of mine in the band was asking for repentence and renewal . It must have had an emotional pull because I said OK god if you want me to then his daughter needs to respond to the call. She did. I did and was baptized.  By thetime I had really read the New Testament I was seeing too many contradictions of the supposed gospel accounts. I drifted into Easatern philosophy and mysticism which was more in line with my LSD experimentations.  In 1979 I went to visit a friend who was a minister dying of cancer. I took Greek while visiting him at the Bible College where he worked. I was being a general type of CHristianity at the time. I took the whole year of Greek in 40 days. I started my Freshman year at Bible College with 2nd year Greek and privately directed studies since I had advanced in the Greek so quickly. I studied sociology under President Clinton's minister, Tony Compallo.   I wrote papers like the error of inerrancy and eventually a paper on the resurrection concluding that the accounts were mostly fabricated.  So that was the extent of my faith and the end.

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My spiritual journey started

My spiritual journey started with me being dragged to a Baptist church kicking and screaming from birth until I was around 10 years old by my grandmother who due to some church issues left and never found another church.  Not being a genius by anymeans but being highly intellectual for the little town of 500 people I live in brought me into contact with decisions and "facts" that some people twice my age haven't dealt with yet. I was a professed atheist from 14 until the age of 17 during which time I wasvery outspoken in my way of thinking and would even confront and condemn church people for spreading lies and hurting people with their dogma. On January 1st of 2009 I was in a car wreck that by anyone's views should have killed me a dozen differentways, but I walked away with only a mild neck injury and a small cut on my head. Even a police officer looked at me later that night and said God has something in store for you because right where I was sitting a piece of metal from the windshield wasimpaled through the seat at about chest level. I remember while flipping through the air praying to the God I so vehemently despised and said "IF you get me out of this I will do whatever you want me to". After being diagnosed with whiplash and sent homewith hospital grade Tylenol and 5 stitches I began to think about what I had promised God and if I could really follow through with it and decided it was much easier just to coast and no longer defy God but not to make a decision to follow him either. Fastforward to December of 2009 when I attended a Pentecostal church for the first time in my life, a guy came up to me and told me that they had been praying for me for a while and was glad I was there. Looking for a reason not to keep attending I for somereason could not shake the need to attend church. After having the "salvation experince" on Easter Sunday morning I was finally once and for all commited to serving the God I had promised my life to the New Year's Day a year earlier. Attending severalchurches and having people I had never met or seen in my life tell me personal things in my life that only I should know was the physical proof that God was there and was caring for me like I should care for him. I said in another post that you have to havefaith that there is proof then the proof will make itself evident to back up the faith. "It is impossible to please God without faith" so if God is not pleased with your lack of faith why would he want to show you anything?

 


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Redemption wrote:My

Redemption wrote:

My spirit......... I said in another post that you have to havefaith that there is proof then the proof will make itself evident to back up the faith. "It is impossible to please God without faith" so if God is not pleased with your lack of faith why would he want to show you anything?

 

The problem with these two sentences are that they are meaningless claims.  IT IS LIKE SAYING  I have to faith that Lincoln existed before the evidence that he existed would appear.   There are several things that your second sentence reveals. One is the type of god you profess is one that hides from anyone looking for him but not from someone  not looking for him( the person who believes). Secondly depending on your particular groups defintion of faith (belief and trust in a person , place or thing) you must first believe god exists before there is any proof that god exists.  Thirdly that type of god or person that wants such a thing must be pretty psychologically messed up.  As a  father would you treat your son or daughter that way. Hey kid before you can see your old man you got a trust him or go fuck off.  I would hope my children were not so dysfunctional as to trust me. I would be an SOB.  So if fact your god is as you said I certainly don't need or want him around. Also keep him away from my children and friends. Sounds like the type of god that wants women stoned for not being virgins. He probably gets off on wiping out villages including the children, live stock and Bambi.  Oh he might keep the virgins alive so his favored children can useand abuse them as they get their jollies. 

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Redemption wrote:I said in

Redemption wrote:
I said in another post that you have to havefaith that there is proof then the proof will make itself evident to back up the faith. "It is impossible to please God without faith" so if God is not pleased with your lack of faith why would he want to show you anything?

How can a person "choose" to have faith?

Why should I have faith in your religion and not any other one?

Why should I worship a god that demands faith?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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To have faith in anything

To have faith in anything requires some sort of reason, rational or not. I have been given absolutely no reason to have faith that a superbeing exists and in fact have been given much much more reason to understand it is all man made.

You do not just wake up one morning and "have faith" in something unless you just want it to be true.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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By the way, I too was in a

By the way, I too was in a nice car accident as a teen. I rolled a beetle 3x AFTER the top of the car smashed a curb. All I got was a small cut on my left pinky finger. Sitting in the car well after the fact I had to crouch way down as there was a huge curb dent over the driver seat. God never factored into this for me, I just got lucky and wasn't wearing my seatbelt. When it tumped over I apparently just rolled over into the passenger floorboard. Was playing cat and mouse with some girls and my left rear axle broke while making a turn. Once again there was no god, just me getting very lucky. The girls left the scene btw ><

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Redemption wrote: On

Redemption wrote:

 On January 1st of 2009 I was in a car wreck that by anyone's views should have killed me a dozen differentways... 

You believe it should have killed you??...

Fuck, you must have been depressed that you didn't meet your maker.

You people just want to believe something, don't you?

 

So, do you believe that Volvos are the devil's work??...

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

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"Choosing" faith - or its lack?

butterbattle wrote:

Redemption wrote:
I said in another post that you have to havefaith that there is proof then the proof will make itself evident to back up the faith. "It is impossible to please God without faith" so if God is not pleased with your lack of faith why would he want to show you anything?

How can a person "choose" to have faith?

Why should I have faith in your religion and not any other one?

Why should I worship a god that demands faith?

 

 

One does not "choose" to have faith. One can have the subject proven or demonstrated to them. Or, they can choose to act as if they believe the thing. They are not choosing to have faith, but are choosing to lie about having faith. They are the hypocrites of the world.

 

[blockquote]

faith (fāt̸h)

noun

  1. unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence
  2. unquestioning belief in God, religious tenets, etc.
  3. a religion or a system of religious beliefs
  4. anything believed
  5. complete trust, confidence, or reliance
  6. allegiance to some person or thing; loyalty

    Origin: Middle English, from Anglo-Norman fed, from Latin fidēs; see bheidh- in Indo-European roots.

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 4th edition Copyright © 2010 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved[/blockquote]  From http://www.yourdictionary.com/faith

Numbers 1 and 2 are nonrational. They are based on appeal to authority - an authority which one does not question by culture or some personal reason. They involve some sort of unquestioning faith or trust in the authority - in the case of religion, parents, community, priests, or the government. This often is based upon emotion.

Number 3 is about something that exists, such as mentioning the Jewish Faith or the Baha'i Faith.

By number 4, anything else believed has to have evidence. I believe that if I flick the light switch in the other room a particular light will illuminate. It has in the past. It probably will in the future. My belief could be wrong because the light could burn out, become unplugged, the wiring fail, or other such thing. But, the light coming on if I flick the switch is the way to bet. I can believe absurdities like there being fairies on the bottom of the garden, but if I wholeheartedly believe that without evidence, I would be considered a bit odd to say the least.

Number 5 has "complete trust, confidence, or reliance". I may have confidence in the light igniting in the next room if I flick the switch. I don't have complete trust in it. If I must rely on it, I had better have some sort of backup light and power source. Trust is earned. If I have faith in a doctor to treat some disease, I have that trust because of that doctor's track record, the methods being used have been used before to cure that disease (x% of the time), belief that the schools the doctor has gone to taught the subject, and that the doctor will do the best job he or she is capable of. This is not the same as a faith healer, who has a trackrecord similar to spontaneous remission, no scientific evidence, and a great deal of showmanship. I don't CHOOSE to have faith in the light or the doctor: They are observable and provable. I don't even choose to have faith in the faith healer. If I do, it would be from some emotional need, some appeal to authority (other people who I trust believe in him/her), or even the unlikely existence of some track record of healing patients (there's a probability, and one can get unlikely outcomes - or statistics can be fraudulent, or the method of gathering them fraudulent).

By number 6, I can have "faith" in my country, in the General of a military unit. I am giving them my loyalty. People generally do that from circumstance and emotional reasons. It is also not rational, and is seldom chosen. To choose to be disloyal, unpatriotic, or such things will likely get your ostracized at best and executed as a traitor at worst.

 

None of these are just "chosen" - unless you choose to "act as if" you believe, which is submitting from (possibly justified) fear at best and hypocracy at worst.

How's my proselytizing? Call 1-800-FANATIC

Beth


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robj101 wrote: Once again

robj101 wrote:

 Once again there was no god, just me getting very lucky. The girls left the scene btw ><

 

Well obviously you were not lucky. See, if you were Christian and had prayed you would have gotten sympathy sex....

 

I too have been involved in a car crash. I was in the passenger seat and had tilted my seat up to eat breakfast when the car skidded on some ice. It rolled multiple times down into a steep ravine. The roof of the car was collapsed in where my head had been when I was sleeping. Both the driver and myself walked away with no injuries. No prayers involved, unless god considers "Oh Shit" a prayer.

 

God must really like atheists since he saves us from all these car accidents.    

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:  God

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

 

God must really like atheists since he saves us from all these car accidents.    

el oh el

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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Rednef regardless of what

Rednef regardless of what you think on that night in January I was an atheist or at least agnostic with a contempt toward any God that would dare send me to Hell. I can post some picture of the car if you would like to show you the damage that would have been done.

 

Ok now on to what Bethk had to say.

The number 4 definition for faith is : anything believed. Ok with this light switch you base your assumption on the fact that the light has came on every other time you have turned the switch. What happens when a fuse blows or the light bulb burns out? Your faith in that falters. There are many things that happened in the Bible with people that showed faith such as with Abraham and Issac when a ram was given to sacrifice instead of Isaac. So that is what I based my initial faith off is that these people followed these rules and their faith was rewarded with blessings.  Paul prayed for the "thorn in his flesh" to be gone but God allowed it to stay. He didn't give up and throw a hissy fit because his faith was not rewarded he counted all the other things God had done for him and kept on doing what he was doing.


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Beyond Saving wrote:God must

Beyond Saving wrote:

God must really like atheists since he saves us from all these car accidents.    

Pffft...

He lust fricken' love me. I've probably used up 11 or 12 of my 9 lives, and I've never even broken a bone. Car accidents, motorcycle accidents, skiing accidents, homicidal girlfriends...

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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Redemption wrote:Rednef

Redemption wrote:

Rednef regardless of what you think on that night in January I was an atheist or at least agnostic with a contempt toward any God that would dare send me to Hell. I can post some picture of the car if you would like to show you the damage that would have been done.

 

Ok now on to what Bethk had to say.

The number 4 definition for faith is : anything believed. Ok with this light switch you base your assumption on the fact that the light has came on every other time you have turned the switch. What happens when a fuse blows or the light bulb burns out? Your faith in that falters. There are many things that happened in the Bible with people that showed faith such as with Abraham and Issac when a ram was given to sacrifice instead of Isaac. So that is what I based my initial faith off is that these people followed these rules and their faith was rewarded with blessings.  Paul prayed for the "thorn in his flesh" to be gone but God allowed it to stay. He didn't give up and throw a hissy fit because his faith was not rewarded he counted all the other things God had done for him and kept on doing what he was doing.

If you had heard of allah instead of the christian god would you now be a muslim?

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Redemption wrote:Rednef

Redemption wrote:

Rednef regardless of what you think on that night in January I was an atheist or at least agnostic with a contempt toward any God that would dare send me to Hell.

Still not the issue.

People switch positions all the time in all directions. Just like a pro sports player gets traded to a rival team.

The issue will always remain one's ability to take what is inside their head as a claim, and DEMONSTRATE it beyond it being in their head in an unbias setting where people with no horse in the race can kick the tires.

ON ANY SUBJECT, not just religion.

A god who would torture you ONLY addresses the problem with the "all loving" concept as a claim and the morality of such a claim. It would be a good enough reason for me alone to reject such a god, STRICTLY AS A CLAIM.

But that is NOT the best or core reason to reject a claim ON ANY ISSUE, not just that of gods. EVIDENCE alone, nothing less.

"My god wouldn't do that" is not evidence of anything but your personal view of what you wish this god to be.

"My god wouldn't do that" is not a tool, like a telescope, or microscope. It is a claim based on emotional appeal.

 

SO WHAT? You used to be? I'm  not even going to guess as to why you had this this conversion. Been there done that. If you wish to go into detail it will be at your own peril because we are way ahead of you.


 

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Redemption wrote:The number

Redemption wrote:

The number 4 definition for faith is : anything believed. Ok with this light switch you base your assumption on the fact that the light has came on every other time you have turned the switch. What happens when a fuse blows or the light bulb burns out? Your faith in that falters. There are many things that happened in the Bible with people that showed faith such as with Abraham and Issac when a ram was given to sacrifice instead of Isaac. So that is what I based my initial faith off is that these people followed these rules and their faith was rewarded with blessings.  Paul prayed for the "thorn in his flesh" to be gone but God allowed it to stay. He didn't give up and throw a hissy fit because his faith was not rewarded he counted all the other things God had done for him and kept on doing what he was doing.

And when the light doesn't come on her assumption is going to be that it burned out, if she observes that other electronics are also turned off she will then have evidence that the fuse is blown. If she checks the fuse and it is fine, she will call the electric company believing that there must be a system wide problem. All of these beliefs are supported by massive amounts of evidence on how electronic systems work. She isn't going to leap to, "oh no God is testing me". Her "faith" doesn't falter because she has a basic understanding of how electric systems work which is based in physical evidence. A belief in god is not based on similar evidence. I can show you an electric system, and demonstrate the basics of how it works. I can introduce you to people who can build one from scratch. Can you provide similar evidence for your god? 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:God must

Beyond Saving wrote:

God must really like atheists since he saves us from all these car accidents.    

   There must be something to that.  In 1974 myself and two teenage friends left the road and crashed through a fence at 60 mph in a 1967 Chevy Caprice and rolled it multiple times.  It was totalled.   All the windows were down and no one was wearing seat belts.  Still, no one was ejected from the rolling vehicle and no significant injuries of any kind on me or my two buddies.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Beyond

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

God must really like atheists since he saves us from all these car accidents.    

   There must be something to that.  In 1974 myself and two teenage friends left the road and crashed through a fence at 60 mph in a 1967 Chevy Caprice and rolled it multiple times.  It was totalled.   All the windows were down and no one was wearing seat belts.  Still, no one was ejected from the rolling vehicle and no significant injuries of any kind on me or my two buddies.

I really hope you are kidding here.

Sample rates. Take the number of car accidents since the invention of cars and ALL the people in human history who have driven or been passengers in cars, all over the world, and what you will find is that it is a ratio to the population of that area and a crap shoot as to your individual case.

Certainly safer cars have helped, but even the number of fatalities and survivals depend on lots of factors. Speed, environment, road conditions, weather, driver experience, population on the road, road design, car age, car car's safety features, alcohol.

Now while I cannot explain the exact details of WHY you survived, you did, which means the conditions were a matter of luck which is why things turned out the way they did for you. Your atheism had nothing to do with it. Anymore than a Christian survives a car accident because they are Christians. You either survive or you don't.

 

 

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Redemption wrote:Rednef

Redemption wrote:

Rednef regardless of what you think on that night in January I was an atheist or at least agnostic with a contempt toward any God that would dare send me to Hell.

Then you weren't an atheist, to begin with.

I have no contempt for things that don't exist.

Redemption wrote:
I can post some picture of the car if you would like to show you the damage that would have been done.

What's that supposed to prove? That you won't slip in the tub and break your neck later tonight?

Stop being an idiot...

 

Redemption wrote:
The number 4 definition for faith is : anything believed. Ok with this light switch you base your assumption on the fact that the light has came on every other time you have turned the switch. What happens when a fuse blows or the light bulb burns out? Your faith in that falters.

What's that got to do with the presupposition that some disembodied mind created the universe with an incantation?

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

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 What the fact that I was

 What the fact that I was an atheist in days is to show that I have been in the same situation as all of you I have just done it in reverse. I chose to listen to things being put on the table and decided it was enough to try. The all loving thing goes back to what I was saying about a mother and her child. She loves the child through everything, but if the child breaks something on purpose she has to punish him or he will go rampant. This is the same scenario with God. The mother never hates the child but has run out of options and has to punish him.


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Wowzers1 and Redemption please tell me if you agree with this.

Hello Wowzers1 and Redemption.  I was wondering if you can tell me if you agree with the following.

 

An unlikely event saves the life of. . . . . . . . . 

A believer because god is blessing them.

An unbeliever because god is giving them a chance to change their ways.  

 

An unlikely event harms . . . . . . .

A believer because god is testing them.  

An unbeliever because god is punishing them.  

 

An unlikely event takes the life of. . . . . . 

A believer because it was their time. 

An unbeliever because god is punishing them. 

 

An unlikely event benefits. . . . . . 

A believer because god is blessing them.  

An unbeliever because god is testing the faith of the believers.   


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Redemption wrote: The all

Redemption wrote:

 The all loving thing goes back to what I was saying about a mother and her child. She loves the child through everything, but if the child breaks something on purpose she has to punish him or he will go rampant. This is the same scenario with God. The mother never hates the child but has run out of options and has to punish him.

I always thought that analogy was a bit creepy, to put it mildly.

I mean, how would you call a mother who punishes their child with eternal torture ?

 

 


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Redemption wrote:  What the

Redemption wrote:

 What the fact that I was an atheist in days is to show that I have been in the same situation as all of you I have just done it in reverse. I chose to listen to things being put on the table and decided it was enough to try. The all loving thing goes back to what I was saying about a mother and her child. She loves the child through everything, but if the child breaks something on purpose she has to punish him or he will go rampant. This is the same scenario with God. The mother never hates the child but has run out of options and has to punish him.


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Original sin

 

Redemption could you explain to me how Adam and Eve knew they were doing wrong before they were afflicted with the knowledge of good and evil? And don't just say "they knew they were disobeying god" because we are not silly enough to accept that you can comprehend the meaning of the word 'disobey' in the absence of preconventional morality.

Until Adam and Eve were punished they could not have realised they had done wrong. In fact it's demonstrable that in Genesis, Eve in fact displays a knowledge of good and evil before she eats the fruit, saying she will die for disbedience. How could she comprehend this conventional reward and punishment morality in the absence of a knowledge of the meaning of good and evil?

She could not.

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Redemption wrote: What the

Redemption wrote:

 What the fact that I was an atheist in days is to show that I have been in the same situation as all of you

But you're not half the man I am, so stop posturing that you were equal to me.

Redemption wrote:
 I chose to listen to things

No.

You chose to swallow a fantasy of having an afterlife, from a bunch of fucking con artists, because you can't cope with the uncertainty of reality.

Redemption wrote:
and decided it was enough to try.

Pascal's Wager.

I've heard of it.

I'm man enough to risk it.

You're not.

End of story.

Redemption wrote:
The all loving thing goes back to what I was saying about a mother and her child.

And you skipped over the part where I said that I would use whatever means necessary to stop from being abused, no matter who was abusing me.

And the same holds true if I saw anyone abusing anyone else like that.

You're a masochist if you think otherwise, and a sadist if that's how you think is just treatment of others, and are no better than a rabid animal...

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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Anonymouse wrote:I mean, how

Anonymouse wrote:

I mean, how would you call a mother who punishes their child with eternal torture ? 

 

Evil bitch? I certainly wouldn't call her mother.

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Hi Redemption and Wowsers

 

These are positive stories in that people survived but they provide no proof whatsoever of the existence of an deity outside this space time. What you are indulging in here is confirmation bias.

I'd suggest Redemption that in the back of your mind you had a kernel of doubt over the non existence of god that had been seasoned by fear of dying and subsequent torture in hell. You were not an atheist at 17. What saved you in that car wreck was blind chance and perhaps some quirk of the accident and the car design.

My younger sis became a fundamentalist - a literalist - after surviving a car accident unscathed. She was at the time praying to god for a sign after the death of our father and of course, instead of appearing to her in person and giving her a hug, he send a V8 Holden Commodore driven by an idiot at 60 over the speed limit to impress upon her his deep and abiding love - a sort of cosmic game of chicken. How loving of him.

I think it's profoundly self obsessed to consider that you were singled out by the divine for special treatment when 35,000 Americans die in car wrecks each year, apparantly with god's blessing, if what you say is correct.

Then there's the business of people in church saying things they could not possibly know that really made you believe. Redemption, what you are talking about is woo. I don't know what these things were but they do not prove god exists. They prove humans are gullible and bend to authority and mystery.

We seem more satisifed believing things for which there is no simple proof and lend the most credence to explanations that are completely beyond our understanding. These characteristics say things about the underpinnings of neuroscience but prove nothing coherent about god.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Redemption wrote:Rednef

Redemption wrote:
Rednef regardless of what you think on that night in January I was an atheist or at least agnostic with a contempt toward any God that would dare send me to Hell.

You wrote:

Redemption wrote:
I remember while flipping through the air praying to the God I so vehemently despised and said "IF you get me out of this I will do whatever you want me to".

An atheist is a person that doesn't believe in any god or gods. Ergo, they cannot "hate" god; they could only hate a fictional character god. Someone that thinks the Christian God exists and hates him is not an atheist; that's a theist that hates a god they believe exists.

Redemption wrote:
She loves the child through everything, but if the child breaks something on purpose she has to punish him or he will go rampant. This is the same scenario with God. The mother never hates the child but has run out of options and has to punish him.

Mothers punish their kids by sending them to their room or cutting their allowance, not by torturing them with fire. I do not consider that a loving mother and neither do you, so your analogy fails on your own standards. Sorry.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Redemption wrote: What the

Redemption wrote:

 What the fact that I was an atheist in days is to show that I have been in the same situation as all of you I have just done it in reverse. I chose to listen to things being put on the table and decided it was enough to try. The all loving thing goes back to what I was saying about a mother and her child. She loves the child through everything, but if the child breaks something on purpose she has to punish him or he will go rampant. This is the same scenario with God. The mother never hates the child but has run out of options and has to punish him.

Answer my question please.

If you had only heard of "allah" and people you knew were muslims would you yourself be a muslim at this time rather than a christian?

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:Fairly typical

robj101 wrote:

Fairly typical example and shows some bias. If you were to contract cancer and it suddenly just seemed to "disappear" and you were prone to belief in a god it would seem your prayers were answered. The idea that your body simply took care of it or whatever just doesn't sit well enough. Many things happen in life that we can't explain and it seems you are saying if we can't explain it we should give credit to the divine over actual investigation and giving thought to it.

Given the context, it does seem to be miraculous. It is anecdotal, but to the individuals closest to the situation, it is very powerful evidence. The farther one is removed from it, the weaker is gets... I doubt there is a person alive who could tell my grandmother that is was not a miracle considering the situation, the amount of pray, and the unexplained absence of cancer after prayer.

bias or no bias, I think one could be skeptical to the nth degree concerning such things... the question, as I posed earlier, is how far is one willing to extend chance before one begins to consider something is not chance?

robj101 wrote:

Did the doctors attribute it to a god as well, or did they perhaps simply smile and nod when you said it was god? Granted there are plenty of religious doctors as well but most of them are doctors because they study to "heal" people through medical means. You don't call people who pray for cures "doctors".

The doctor was a believer from what I understand, and was willing to attribute such things to miracles. My grandmother said the doctor called it a "miracle" and found my grandmother's faith admirable.

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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Beyond Saving wrote:I find

Beyond Saving wrote:

I find it interesting that you describe your grandmother as "more fundamental" than you are. Why aren't you more fundamental? If what you believe it is the absolute truth than why would you be anything other than a fundamentalist?

I'm Pascalian in my beliefs... I don't claim to have "absolute truth".

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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I understand why someone

I understand why someone would consider it to be a miracle. Like I said it has to do with a personal assumption that a god does exist, if someone believes something is a miracle it would mean they believe miracles are possible which in turn means they believe something causes the miracles.

Do you understand my idea that things that may seem extraordinary can just happen?

 

edit: and you haven't answered my first question yet =)

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Atheistextremist wrote:These

Atheistextremist wrote:

These are positive stories in that people survived but they provide no proof whatsoever of the existence of an deity outside this space time. What you are indulging in here is confirmation bias.

I think this is entirely on how one interprets the evidence... The claim to "no proof" is dubious itself. The inference to God is inductive, and I think requires, at a minimum, the possibility that there is a God who can do such things... If one precludes this as a possibility, then it is bias against God.

Atheistextremist wrote:

We seem more satisifed believing things for which there is no simple proof and lend the most credence to explanations that are completely beyond our understanding. These characteristics say things about the underpinnings of neuroscience but prove nothing coherent about god.

The explanation of divine cause, at least for a theist, is not beyond understanding, but is inherent to understanding. The danger I think is over-attributing things that have a tenable explanation to the divine.

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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robj101 wrote:edit: and you

robj101 wrote:

edit: and you haven't answered my first question yet =)

How did I come to belief? That question?

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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Wowzers1 wrote:robj101

Wowzers1 wrote:

robj101 wrote:

edit: and you haven't answered my first question yet =)

How did I come to belief? That question?

If everyone around you worshipped allah and you had not heard of jesus christ would you now be a muslim.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:I understand

robj101 wrote:

I understand why someone would consider it to be a miracle. Like I said it has to do with a personal assumption that a god does exist, if someone believes something is a miracle it would mean they believe miracles are possible which in turn means they believe something causes the miracles.

Do you understand my idea that things that may seem extraordinary can just happen?

 

edit: and you haven't answered my first question yet =)

and don't forget this question.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:If everyone

robj101 wrote:

If everyone around you worshipped allah and you had not heard of jesus christ would you now be a muslim.

Good question--I dunno. People around me worshiped Jesus.

But I'm not going to say that I'm a Christian because I was raised by Christians... It certainly increases the likelihood that I'd be one though,

If you must know, I did not believe until I was an adult. Before that I had syncretistic beliefs from lots of religions as I considered myself a "spirutual" person, and had adopted a sort of karma-based worldview

I came to Jesus because in my efforts to discover truth, I felt empty, and I still felt guilty even after doing good things. I felt a genuine need for forgiveness, and I only found that in the teachings of Christ....that plus a hope.

 

 

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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robj101 wrote:Do you

robj101 wrote:

Do you understand my idea that things that may seem extraordinary can just happen?

Yes...extraordinary things can "just happen", but at the same time, extraordinary things don't necessarily "just happen" either... Given the circumstances concerning my grandmother, what would you say?

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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Why don't they "just

Why don't they "just happen". Yes I think things just happen, you admitted as much yourself but this one item seems to be in a special place in your heart because it was a loved one.

Can you say it is not something you "want" to be true?

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Wowzers1 wrote:robj101

Wowzers1 wrote:

robj101 wrote:

If everyone around you worshipped allah and you had not heard of jesus christ would you now be a muslim.

Good question--I dunno. People around me worshiped Jesus.

But I'm not going to say that I'm a Christian because I was raised by Christians... It certainly increases the likelihood that I'd be one though,

If you must know, I did not believe until I was an adult. Before that I had syncretistic beliefs from lots of religions as I considered myself a "spirutual" person, and had adopted a sort of karma-based worldview

I came to Jesus because in my efforts to discover truth, I felt empty, and I still felt guilty even after doing good things. I felt a genuine need for forgiveness, and I only found that in the teachings of Christ....that plus a hope.

 

 

Yes I know the type, basicly described as "spiritual" but when you decided upon "jesus" you felt grounded finally because you had a focus. Rather than blame yourself for things you prefer to project yourself into a god granting it your own attributes and attributes you deem worthy of such a god. My point was that whatever god was close at hand would be the one you chose which should enlighten you on the matter if given any real thought.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

God must really like atheists since he saves us from all these car accidents.    

   There must be something to that.  In 1974 myself and two teenage friends left the road and crashed through a fence at 60 mph in a 1967 Chevy Caprice and rolled it multiple times.  It was totalled.   All the windows were down and no one was wearing seat belts.  Still, no one was ejected from the rolling vehicle and no significant injuries of any kind on me or my two buddies.

I really hope you are kidding here.

Sample rates. Take the number of car accidents since the invention of cars and ALL the people in human history who have driven or been passengers in cars, all over the world, and what you will find is that it is a ratio to the population of that area and a crap shoot as to your individual case.

Certainly safer cars have helped, but even the number of fatalities and survivals depend on lots of factors. Speed, environment, road conditions, weather, driver experience, population on the road, road design, car age, car car's safety features, alcohol.

Now while I cannot explain the exact details of WHY you survived, you did, which means the conditions were a matter of luck which is why things turned out the way they did for you. Your atheism had nothing to do with it. Anymore than a Christian survives a car accident because they are Christians. You either survive or you don't.

 

 

 

  No I'm not kidding.  It happened.  Randomness can work for or against you.  I guess that's why a few people in the path of the most recent tsunami survived ( against the odds )  to live another day while the vast majority did not.   People get lucky and beat the odds all the time. Soldiers who walk off a battlefield without a scratch while most everyone around them leaves in a body bag.  Life long smokers who die of old age instead of succumbing to lung disease, thing like that.  Statistical probability indicates a likelihood, not a certainty.

  And obviously my lack of spiritual beliefs played no part in my survival, that was intended as humor.

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robj101 wrote:Why don't they

robj101 wrote:

Why don't they "just happen". Yes I think things just happen, you admitted as much yourself but this one item seems to be in a special place in your heart because it was a loved one.

I'm not saying that things don't "just happen"... some things do "just happen" Sheer chance is sufficient cause, but in my estimation, I don't think it is a necessary cause.

robj101 wrote:

 

Can you say it is not something you "want" to be true?

That could cut both ways -- is it possible that you "want" it to be false?

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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robj101 wrote:Yes I know the

robj101 wrote:

Yes I know the type, basicly described as "spiritual" but when you decided upon "jesus" you felt grounded finally because you had a focus. Rather than blame yourself for things you prefer to project yourself into a god granting it your own attributes and attributes you deem worthy of such a god. My point was that whatever god was close at hand would be the one you chose which should enlighten you on the matter if given any real thought.

But that assumes that I was projecting myself into a god. You don't know that, nor can you. Deconstructing religion like this assumes that religion is false...

Which brings me back to the question I asked about my grandmother... If you were there in the midst of the trial we were going through, what would you say?

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that he should not exist. -Blaise Pascal


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Yeah

Wowzers1 wrote:

I came to Jesus because in my efforts to discover truth, I felt empty, and I still felt guilty even after doing good things. I felt a genuine need for forgiveness, and I only found that in the teachings of Christ....that plus a hope.

 

Wows - it's true that living life in the absence of god is challenging and requires bravery. You are alone with no one to hold your hand. Things are still challenging now as a non believer and it would have been worse before widespread empiricism. Atheists in the year 0 BC have my deep respect.

Nevertheless, the points you raise don't prove anything. They are subjective and suggest you are person who really needed to find a meaning to it all - a simple digestable meaning - or else you felt bad the whole time. Feeling a need for forgiveness is pretty normal but it's not proof of anything outside your particular guilt.

It sounds like you had some preloaded christianity and in time of trial it came out.

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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This is the only

Wowzers1 wrote:

But that assumes that I was projecting myself into a god. You don't know that, nor can you. Deconstructing religion like this assumes that religion is false...

sensible course. Religion makes claims for which there exists no proof. Only a particular sort of person would approach religions without assuming they were false. For instance, Wows, which religions do you assume are false?

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck