To those who believe in hell

RatDog
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To those who believe in hell

Imagine yourself wherever you believe that God is going to judge people.  God in all of his infinite wisdom and justice declares you will go to heaven.  The next person comes up for God's judgment.  

 

The person's name is Sara.  

Sara is a normal 14 year old girl.  She has never committed any acts that you would consider horrible.  She wasn't raised in a religious family and she doesn't believe in God.  

God in his infinite wisdom and justice declares that as an unbeliever the girl should go to hell, but also in his infinite wisdom and justice God declares that just this once you should decide.  There will be no personal consequences to you whatever you decide.  

What do you do?

A)  Accept God's infinite wisdom and judgment and send the girl to hell.  

B)  Go against God's infinite wisdom and judgment and send the girl to heaven.  


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Hahaha! Brilliant

Hahaha! Brilliant hypothetical.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Yeah look,

 

The evil witch Sara should be broiled in garlic and butter, hung from a jungle gym and chased through Mayfair Primary by Richard Hauraki. Once these trials have come to a conclusion, she should be sent to ummmmmm (WTF are we talking about specifically?) heaven. 

 

 

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God is merely a

God is merely a superstitious version of parenting, and not even good parenting, but dictatorial parenting.

The younger the child the more parameters and rules they need. However, the more they grow up, responsible parents don't just scare the shit out of them with threats, or bribe them. They expose them to the options and explain why things happen and raise them to chose for themselves.

The god character is a a dictator that even when you grow your own brain and chose for yourself, still threatens you with violence and at the same time tries to bribe you with utopias even when you are an adult.

It is a horrible way to raise a child because it sets the child up with the same "my way or the highway" mentality of the god the child is sold. So when they as adults run into someone who is an "outsider" they lack the very ethical conflict resolution skills it takes in problem solving in reality. It is abusive to humanity because it sets us up automatically as a species for division.

Good leadership is not dictatorial. It is not abusive. And in westernized governments those governed chose their leaders and can change their leaders if they don't like them. The god of the bible does not display any semblance of modern civility.

The god of the bible cannot be reasoned with. Those under him cannot change his laws. They cannot vote him out of office. And this fictional character uses the same tactics modern parents use at Christmas to get their kids to behaive, "He sees you when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake. He knows when you've been bad or good".

The god character is cosmic Big Brother. You have no privacy under this concept as a claim. He sees everything, according to the believer. So according to that model, this fictional character by proxy of claim, is watching you even when you have sex or pee.

It is a horrible concept of morality.

Better morality does NOT employ threats or bribes.

Think about the workplace. There is change on your co-worker's desk. Do you leave it there because you fear you are being watched? Or, do you leave it there even if you are not being watched?

Of course this only address the moral motifs as written in that book of myth. But this alone, even without addressing the absurd claim of a magic brain with no location and magical super powers, alone, is enough to reject such a god concept as a claim.

 

 

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 Well, if we are talking

 

Well, if we are talking about the god of all the omni stuff, then he already knows what I will do as I have as much free will as a plastic army man. From that god's perspective, it really is not even a coin flip model.

 

Now if we are talking about a different sort of god, where it could be a coin flip model for him, then I would need more information. Is god offering to let me ask three questions or something?

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Atheistextremist wrote:WTF

Atheistextremist wrote:

WTF are we talking about specifically?

I imagine that any Christian who reads this will already have a vision of heaven and hell in their mind so I didn't get specific.  


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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Is god offering to let me ask three questions or something?

Sure why not.  


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RatDog wrote:Answers in Gene

RatDog wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Is god offering to let me ask three questions or something?

Sure why not.  

Ok here are the three questions.

1. Are you willing to give your brain to me without question?

2. Are you willing to give your brain to me without question?

3. How does it feel to be owned like property?

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote: RatDog wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

RatDog wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Is god offering to let me ask three questions or something?

Sure why not.  

Ok here are the three questions.

1. Are you willing to give your brain to me without question?

2. Are you willing to give your brain to me without question?

3. How does it feel to be owned like property?

 

 Hmm.... let me think how god would answer this.  Give that most believer feel god knows the answer to life the universe and everything I thing the only possible answer to these questions is 42.  Unless of course god weighs the same as a duck in which case we are all obviously witches and must be burned.  


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Do you actually believe this

Do you actually believe this makes logical sense? 
Same old game of omnipotence paradox- for this to work the story you presented has to taken to be
 truth by construction. Responses will only go against limitations you placed on God’s ability to
know everything.  FYI -  by starting off with an illogical question, you cannot deduce any logical
conclusions. Any answer requires the doing of nonsense.
Any believed truth needs to be held to logical contradiction to be disproven.

I will go with  C) Wait till a logical question is asked


RatDog
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Mjolnin wrote:Do you

Mjolnin wrote:

Do you actually believe this makes logical sense? 
Same old game of omnipotence paradox- for this to work the story you presented has to taken to be
 truth by construction. Responses will only go against limitations you placed on God’s ability to
know everything.  FYI -  by starting off with an illogical question, you cannot deduce any logical
conclusions. Any answer requires the doing of nonsense.
Any believed truth needs to be held to logical contradiction to be disproven.

I will go with  C) Wait till a logical question is asked

How am  limiting what god knows?  In this hypothetical situation god knows everything.  He knows everything about the girl, he knows everything about you, and he even know what you are going to choose.  None of that is important to the question.  The question is what would you choose if the choice was yours.  


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 I wonder how believers

 I wonder how believers react to it. When they believe, they shut their brain off, so they need no logic or system in their worldview, so they can't even distinguish agreements from contradictions. They could not get away with such a nonsense at work or school. I wonder what they do when they're forced to use the brain and see the nonsense.  

The problem is, I can't get any believers for debate, taking faith away from them is like taking lollipop from a baby. I'm pretty sure makes their mothers angry. Yes, the elder youth group leaders REALLY try to talk some sense and critical thinking into them, but at the same time, they put a lot of Jesus and bible talk into that, probably to keep it kosher. So I wonder if anything reaches the kids' ears. They all just sit and keep silent, they don't ask questions, they don't give original answers and snicker when they hear long words. But they show a plenty of activity when the songs are sung, during prayers and games. 

Rational activism in there would probably have a bomb drop effect. Unless, of course, I'd find some time to consult with some elder group leader (about in his 30's or so) about what he's doing and where's the group supposed to end up.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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It's what you would do if

It's what you would do if the choice were yours. It's subjunctive.

Nice question. Nobody will answer it though.

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I would choose B of course.

I would choose B of course.  

God in his infinite wisdom has sent me to heaven, even though I have not kissed his ass.  Assuming that you're attempting to do well in the eyes of god at this point.  Since there is no personal consequence at this point, the only positive outcome would be favour (as in brownit points). I would choose B because:

1.  Going against my nature would be dishonest, and god may see this as a flaw in character.

2.  Sending an innocent child to hell just because of said god's opinion is an asshole thing to do, and he can shove his brownie points up his ass.

3.  I wouldn't be able to sing cumbaya out of my asshole in heaven, knowing I sent an innocent to hell for any reason.

 

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Gauche wrote:It's what you

Gauche wrote:

It's what you would do if the choice were yours. It's subjunctive.

Nice question. Nobody will answer it though.

Great analysis.

I agree.

I can't answer the question, because it's not logical to me. It's completely dissonant.

I can't get past the thought of living in eternity in a world of theists.

That would be 'Hell' for me...

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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RatDog wrote:Imagine

RatDog wrote:

Imagine yourself wherever you believe that God is going to judge people.  God in all of his infinite wisdom and justice declares you will go to heaven.  The next person comes up for God's judgment.  

 

The person's name is Sara.  

Sara is a normal 14 year old girl.  She has never committed any acts that you would consider horrible.  She wasn't raised in a religious family and she doesn't believe in God.  

God in his infinite wisdom and justice declares that as an unbeliever the girl should go to hell, but also in his infinite wisdom and justice God declares that just this once you should decide.  There will be no personal consequences to you whatever you decide.  

What do you do?

A)  Accept God's infinite wisdom and judgment and send the girl to hell.  

B)  Go against God's infinite wisdom and judgment and send the girl to heaven.  

Quite simple. Infinite wisdom sucks. God sucks. I can choose better with limited wisdom. Sarah goes to heaven. I tell god to go to hell reminding him judge not that ye be not judged. By what measure you judge so shall ye be judged.  My act of sending Sarah to heaven is a judgement of god by default. Human wisdom and justice is compassionate and offers a true "spirituality" that legalistic divine judgement lacks. 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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TGBaker wrote:Quite simple.

TGBaker wrote:

Quite simple. Infinite wisdom sucks. God sucks. I can choose better with limited wisdom. Sarah goes to heaven. I tell god to go to hell reminding him judge not that ye be not judged. By what measure you judge so shall ye be judged.  My act of sending Sarah to heaven is a judgement of god by default. Human wisdom and justice is compassionate and offers a true "spirituality" that legalistic divine judgement lacks. 

There is no justice if there are ones who exalt themselves as more equal than others.

It's great to hear from you again, Brother TG.

Your wisdom and thoughts are of great value.

Keep your spirit positive, my friend.

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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redneF wrote:TGBaker

redneF wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

Quite simple. Infinite wisdom sucks. God sucks. I can choose better with limited wisdom. Sarah goes to heaven. I tell god to go to hell reminding him judge not that ye be not judged. By what measure you judge so shall ye be judged.  My act of sending Sarah to heaven is a judgement of god by default. Human wisdom and justice is compassionate and offers a true "spirituality" that legalistic divine judgement lacks. 

There is no justice if there are ones who exalt themselves as more equal than others.

It's great to hear from you again, Brother TG.

Your wisdom and thoughts are of great value.

Keep your spirit positive, my friend.

 

Thanks my man. I've got my big orange Gretsch Rancher acoustic here in my room and a bunch a songs to scream out.  They still will not serve scotch with dinner and will not allow conjugal visits. . Otherwise this like a vacation. I've got tons of DVD's and watched Adjustment Bureau last night.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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Brian37 wrote: Think about

Brian37 wrote:

 

Think about the workplace. There is change on your co-worker's desk. Do you leave it there because you fear you are being watched? Or, do you leave it there even if you are not being watched?

 

 

This is a moral point that theists seem to oblivion. There's a huge difference in abstaining from something because you fear retribution or punishment and abstaining from something because you KNOW in your heart it's wrong and you know you would feel like hell if you did it. The inner feelings are something you're either born with the capacity for or you aren't. How moral is a person if they're good only when punishment is assured? The book and film A Clockwork Orange explored this question.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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Mjolnin wrote:Do you

Mjolnin wrote:

Do you actually believe this makes logical sense? 
Same old game of omnipotence paradox- for this to work the story you presented has to taken to be
 truth by construction. Responses will only go against limitations you placed on God’s ability to
know everything.  FYI -  by starting off with an illogical question, you cannot deduce any logical
conclusions. Any answer requires the doing of nonsense.
Any believed truth needs to be held to logical contradiction to be disproven.

I will go with  C) Wait till a logical question is asked

the only reason its illogical to you is because you have to think for yourself for a moment. 

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4