Speaking In Tounges

ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
Speaking In Tounges

What are speaking in tounges in religion I grew up in a pentacostal church and never spole in tounges neither did other people I know who are still devout christians so whats going on what are the logical explanations for it Ive seen people just repeat the same syllables over and over so I know it isnt a language.

So what is it and why are some people more suscetiple to it.


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote:I can

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I can most certainly assure you these people are under some kind of altered state or extreme good feelings. The people who go to the chruch have nothing to gain from pretending.

 

Ah, but they have much to gain from pretending.  Prestige, the feeling of being one of the "lucky chosen", attention from others in the church.  Don't people all rush over and start praying and hovering over the person who is "under the influence" of the holy ghost?

Watch.  Just watch.

My experience has been that there are darn few who attend church and truly have no feelings of superiority over those who don't belong to their church.  Are the people 'saved' only the ones who attend your church?  Are any other congregations in other churches "saved"?  Who is left out?  Why?  Just how sympathetic are church members for those who are going to hell because they don't believe in the "right" doctrines?

And just how arrogant is it to say my way of worship is the only right way?  My way to inner peace is the only right way.  Just how prideful and superior do these people feel when they talk about people who are not a part of their congregation?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
cj wrote:ymalmsteen887

cj wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I can most certainly assure you these people are under some kind of altered state or extreme good feelings. The people who go to the chruch have nothing to gain from pretending.

 

Ah, but they have much to gain from pretending.  Prestige, the feeling of being one of the "lucky chosen", attention from others in the church.  Don't people all rush over and start praying and hovering over the person who is "under the influence" of the holy ghost?

Watch.  Just watch.

My experience has been that there are darn few who attend church and truly have no feelings of superiority over those who don't belong to their church.  Are the people 'saved' only the ones who attend your church?  Are any other congregations in other churches "saved"?  Who is left out?  Why?  Just how sympathetic are church members for those who are going to hell because they don't believe in the "right" doctrines?

And just how arrogant is it to say my way of worship is the only right way?  My way to inner peace is the only right way.  Just how prideful and superior do these people feel when they talk about people who are not a part of their congregation?

 

I guess youre tight about that. She is the kind of person who will say when havnig a conversation about someone dating and say it is better to marry than to burn, refering to premartial sex.


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
BardlishtheMagnifico

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

[My grandma described to me that she wanted it for the longest time but never did and one time at chruch after events she described that I want say here, a friend of hers came up to her and said god is ready for you or something along those lines and as soon as she said that it came upon her.

Its possible that at her age she is mistaken of her memories and she didnt tell me if she had been through multiple experinces before that or not.

I would certainly not suggest she is mistaken about her perception of the events.  She wanted it really bad and the words of her freind could easily have generated the wellspring of emotion needed.  She may have also just spurted out some nonsense and the smoothing trowel of time has smoothed over the less desirable parts of the memory!

Quote:

Another thing and 2 people are witnesses to this or this one guy wanted to stop them from doing all the speaking in tounges and when he came in and was about to break them apart a preacher laid hands on him and he immediatley started speaking in tounges and later he was testifing and saying that he used to call them crazy people and no I am one of them. How do you explain this since this was way before I was born I want know one way or the other but is it possible that my grandma witnessed a fraud taking place.

Also when she told me about it it was probably a year later someone else at the chruch mentioned it and so I dont think this would be a false memory situation.

 

Seems an odd way to bestow a gift, eh?

I give little credence to such stories, and I have heard my share of them.  Tales of derring-do from the past that serve to offer a rather vague shoring up of the story-line are almost always embellished beyond belief.  Multiple people telling the same story means little.  Look at the gospels.   These rather predictable and mystical stories are poor evidence indeed for anything at all.  They are most likely the fond but flawed memories of a group of people who want to shore up their faith.  I remember hearing one about the spirit moving on a saxaphone and it playing itself...

Quote:

This is why it is so hard for me to laugh at them cause there is so much to anazlye and try to debunk.

There really isn't but I completely understand your hesitation.  It is unimaginally traumatic to stand up and speak against beliefs your family and freinds hold.  The best advise I can give isn't my advise at all.  It is the words of Ghandi, "Speak your mind.  ...Even if your voice shakes."

Unfortunately you will probably never debunk them.  Their faith is not based on evidence or rationality.  The best you can do is to stand up, ask the questions and be bold about it.  It will get easier with time and you will become the inspiration for another rational thinker who is just as afraid as you are.

I still havent demystified the whole thing it really has traumitized me. Dont think I am messed up or anything but it caused me to be afraid of going out into the world and running into those people from my chruch. I wish I could say F*** you to those people but I would feel like I was saying it to somehting real. My fear of god and the bibles teachings comes from the fact that I have fear of them. Cj if you read this thats why its so hard for me to skake it off everytime I am around my grandma its like I am around the presense of god or the holy spirit. So if I could see it for the foolishness it is I wouldnt have thought much about it. My friend from school I went to church with a few times in high school went to a pentocoastal church as well but it was a much nicer building bigger and everyone wasnt as crazy but the one I went to was old and everyone seemed unlearned about the outside world well not everyone. If had grown up in that church with my friend I would have had an eaiser time leaving the church and confronting people like that even at the other church cause I have to be able to stand up to people like that and not be afraid of hurting their feelings or making my self fearful of being struck by lighting.

I dont want to deconvert my grandma cause she would be devastated and I couldnt live with myself after that. But I want to able to say to her if talking about the bible that god is just wierd in some places and evil at times, with out thinking she is going to lay hands on me and if she does I want to say your just silly grandma.

I would however like to deconvert my aunts and uncles by talking about it if I can convince them then their faith wasnt that strong to begin with and I believe they could handle the loss.

Do you have any advice? Oh and by the way when I say debunk up there I mean for myself not them.


redneF
atheistRational VIP!
redneF's picture
Posts: 1971
Joined: 2011-01-04
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote:I can

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I can most certainly assure you these people are under some kind of altered state or extreme good feelings. The people who go to the chruch have nothing to gain from pretending.

That's a most ignorant thought, that they have nothing to 'gain' from 'pretending'.

Don't kid yourself.

 

Oops.

See? I just proved how false you actually were...

 

cj wrote:
Ah, but they have much to gain from pretending.  Prestige, the feeling of being one of the "lucky chosen", attention from others in the church.  Don't people all rush over and start praying and hovering over the person who is "under the influence" of the holy ghost?

Watch.  Just watch.

My experience has been that there are darn few who attend church and truly have no feelings of superiority over those who don't belong to their church.  Are the people 'saved' only the ones who attend your church?  Are any other congregations in other churches "saved"?  Who is left out?  Why?  Just how sympathetic are church members for those who are going to hell because they don't believe in the "right" doctrines?

And just how arrogant is it to say my way of worship is the only right way?  My way to inner peace is the only right way.  Just how prideful and superior do these people feel when they talk about people who are not a part of their congregation?

Awesome post.

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I still havent demystified the whole thing it really has traumitized me. Dont think I am messed up or anything but it caused me to be afraid of going out into the world and running into those people from my chruch.

You're completely out of touch with reality.

You contradict yourself everytime you open your mouth.

"Don't think I'm messed up", and then you write about the most 'messed up' thoughts and behaviours, of yours.

 

I've given you a list of things I see surrounding you, and your habitual characteristics, and you attempt to deny them all.

Then, you even go on to deny that you don't think other people have anything to 'gain' by pretending something is real.

 

You've either got to be a complete troll, and all of your posts are a farce, or you need to be on meds, and getting some serious mental therapy.

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Do you have any advice? Oh and by the way when I say debunk up there I mean for myself not them.

Get off the computer, go see your family doctor, tell he/she about your issues, and tell them that you'd like to talk to a mental health care professional.

 

If you are actually sincere in wanting to help yourself.

Otherwise, you are a complete waste of time, a loser, a sympathy junkie, and an emotional vampire.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
redneF wrote:ymalmsteen887

redneF wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I can most certainly assure you these people are under some kind of altered state or extreme good feelings. The people who go to the chruch have nothing to gain from pretending.

That's a most ignorant thought, that they have nothing to 'gain' from 'pretending'.

Don't kid yourself.

 

Oops.

See? I just proved how false you actually were...

 

cj wrote:
Ah, but they have much to gain from pretending.  Prestige, the feeling of being one of the "lucky chosen", attention from others in the church.  Don't people all rush over and start praying and hovering over the person who is "under the influence" of the holy ghost?

Watch.  Just watch.

My experience has been that there are darn few who attend church and truly have no feelings of superiority over those who don't belong to their church.  Are the people 'saved' only the ones who attend your church?  Are any other congregations in other churches "saved"?  Who is left out?  Why?  Just how sympathetic are church members for those who are going to hell because they don't believe in the "right" doctrines?

And just how arrogant is it to say my way of worship is the only right way?  My way to inner peace is the only right way.  Just how prideful and superior do these people feel when they talk about people who are not a part of their congregation?

Awesome post.

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I still havent demystified the whole thing it really has traumitized me. Dont think I am messed up or anything but it caused me to be afraid of going out into the world and running into those people from my chruch.

You're completely out of touch with reality.

You contradict yourself everytime you open your mouth.

"Don't think I'm messed up", and then you write about the most 'messed up' thoughts and behaviours, of yours.

 

I've given you a list of things I see surrounding you, and your habitual characteristics, and you attempt to deny them all.

Then, you even go on to deny that you don't think other people have anything to 'gain' by pretending something is real.

 

You've either got to be a complete troll, and all of your posts are a farce, or you need to be on meds, and getting some serious mental therapy.

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Do you have any advice? Oh and by the way when I say debunk up there I mean for myself not them.

Get off the computer, go see your family doctor, tell he/she about your issues, and tell them that you'd like to talk to a mental health care professional.

 

If you are actually sincere in wanting to help yourself.

Otherwise, you are a complete waste of time, a loser, a sympathy junkie, and an emotional vampire.

F*** you Stop commenting on things that have nothing to do with you. you act like it is esay to get over this I was glad you said what you said in the other thread just let this guy speak and help me out. No I am not messed up if you saw me you would see that I can still function in life, I like classical guitar music and I am obseesed with chest pounding bassand I am pretty good at basketball. There are just a few things on this subject that have prevented me from living to my full potential. Its nice to talk to someone who has been apart of this stuff. You have described me at all accurately so stop trying to look cool.


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
You have no idea the

You have no idea the physchological boost I got from the last part of the blasphemy thread and I am about to probably have another break through. Its like you are only there to rain on my parade.


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
redneF wrote: Get off the

redneF wrote:

 

Get off the computer, go see your family doctor, tell he/she about your issues, and tell them that you'd like to talk to a mental health care professional.

 

If you are actually sincere in wanting to help yourself.

Otherwise, you are a complete waste of time, a loser, a sympathy junkie, and an emotional vampire.

I have seen a therapists and that didnt help it only made me want to convince her christianity wasnt true and i took SSRIs for depression and it made me feel like hell.

there is nothing mentally wrong with me I am just been so conditioned to respect this stuff and my dad also always got on to me any time I tried to do something that was a little adventorous that I got to the point that dating was wrong listining to rock music was wrong going out in public was wrong. Now I do go out into to public and listen to rock music now I just need to work on the dating part.


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote:redneF

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

redneF wrote:

 

Get off the computer, go see your family doctor, tell he/she about your issues, and tell them that you'd like to talk to a mental health care professional.

 

If you are actually sincere in wanting to help yourself.

Otherwise, you are a complete waste of time, a loser, a sympathy junkie, and an emotional vampire.

I have seen a therapists and that didnt help it only made me want to convince her christianity wasnt true and i took SSRIs for depression and it made me feel like hell.

there is nothing mentally wrong with me I am just been so conditioned to respect this stuff and my dad also always got on to me any time I tried to do something that was a little adventorous that I got to the point that dating was wrong listining to rock music was wrong going out in public was wrong. Now I do go out into to public and listen to rock music now I just need to work on the dating part.

I am actually helping myself write now and there are plenty of youtube atheists I have been talking to that have helped out alot like anubis2814. You think everything can be fixed by giong to a therapists I didnt realize that had therapy for getting over religious indoctrination and fear of hell. Most people in this world are religious so you are not going to find to many thigs like that. Getting on these forums has been extremely helpful except when you respond minus that one time with the cursing the trinity.


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote:I dont

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I dont want to deconvert my grandma cause she would be devastated and I couldnt live with myself after that. But I want to able to say to her if talking about the bible that god is just wierd in some places and evil at times, with out thinking she is going to lay hands on me and if she does I want to say your just silly grandma.

I would however like to deconvert my aunts and uncles by talking about it if I can convince them then their faith wasnt that strong to begin with and I believe they could handle the loss.

Do you have any advice? Oh and by the way when I say debunk up there I mean for myself not them.

 

It isn't necessary to deconvert your grandma.  It most likely isn't possible, no matter what you say.  So I wouldn't worry about saying, "I think that is silly, grandma."  She may not be happy, but that isn't your problem.  People cause their own happiness or unhappiness, it has nothing to do with you.  Yes, she will say you are killing her and it is all your fault, but it really isn't.  She is just trying to manipulate you.  You don't have to let her - "Grandma, I love you and would like you to accept me the way I am, and not the way you want me to be."

Deconversion must come from within.  People will not change their minds from anything specific you can tell them.  All you can do is say, 'I think that is silly.'  And move on.  Maybe if they hear it enough times, they will start to think, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them. 

You are an adult and have the right not to be touched.  Even your own relatives do not have the right to touch you if you don't want them to.  If they put their hands on you, and you don't want them to, walk away.  Don't yell, push, or get upset, just walk.  Walk out side, walk down the street, walk.  Eventually, you will get somewhere where they get tired or there are too many people and they get embarrassed.  Doesn't matter which.  Just keep your mouth shut and keep walking.

Hope you are in good shape.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


BardlishtheMagnifico
atheistScience Freak
BardlishtheMagnifico's picture
Posts: 37
Joined: 2011-03-01
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote:I still

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I still havent demystified the whole thing it really has traumitized me. Dont think I am messed up or anything but it caused me to be afraid of going out into the world and running into those people from my chruch.

To walk away from a social network that has defined the major impetus of your life is a horribly traumatic thing.  When it happens to be a cult (the type of Pentecostalism you are describing qualifies soundly as a cult, I was there...) the ties are even deeper and more malicious.  It is likely that you will be years in shaking off the irrational and nagging fears in the back of your mind.  The most important thing is to recognize when your reservations are based on legitimate concerns and when it is a psychological kneejerk reaction based on the deeply interwoven emotional ties that these groups weave into your mind. 

A part of it is knowing that many of these folks are not bad people and they do feel real concern for you, but they will be utterly incapable of understanding the reasons you are walking away.  You want to be liked by them, family in particular, but you know damn well what they are thinking about the awful condition of your soul.  There is no shame in being a little afraid of the chains that once bound you.  You will grow past it though, trust me. 

Quote:
I wish I could say F*** you to those people but I would feel like I was saying it to somehting real. My fear of god and the bibles teachings comes from the fact that I have fear of them. Cj if you read this thats why its so hard for me to skake it off everytime I am around my grandma its like I am around the presense of god or the holy spirit. So if I could see it for the foolishness it is I wouldnt have thought much about it.

Be rational.  Stand up for how you feel.  Speaking to my immediate family about how I believe (or the lack thereof) took nearly ten years for me.  In fact, it was a few weeks past that my Mother actually realized that I am an atheist.  I'm 35, I left religion at around 25.  Your fear is a very natural aversion to the psychological isolation you are anticipating should you fully express your reservations, and it is a mother-fucker! Your family will likely suspect and find out and it will be incredibly shocking and they will place much well meaning pressure on you and it will be tough.  Really tough.  There is nothing wrong with you in feeling that trepidation. 

I would advise against being aggressive towards your family with it.  Live as you see fit, explore who you are and the world around you and question everything.  Question everything, question everything!  Work to recognise when a logical fallacy is being masked by an emotional plea.  If the conversation comes up, by all means stand up for your views and skepticism, in spite of the lump in your throat and hammering in your chest... and the lump will be there and your heart will hammer. 

Quote:

My friend from school I went to church with a few times in high school went to a pentocoastal church as well but it was a much nicer building bigger and everyone wasnt as crazy but the one I went to was old and everyone seemed unlearned about the outside world well not everyone. If had grown up in that church with my friend I would have had an eaiser time leaving the church and confronting people like that even at the other church cause I have to be able to stand up to people like that and not be afraid of hurting their feelings or making my self fearful of being struck by lighting.

I typically attended small, rural churches growing up.  It was common for the pastor to be the de facto ruler.  Pastor X approved marriages, was consulted and listened to on jobs changes, selling the house, buying a house, dating the girl, reading a book, the whole nine yards.  Growing up in that kind of controlling environment puts some baggage in the trunk for you and it is sticky stuff and hard to cast off. 

The key to its power is perspective though.  The church group is an isolated in-group that characterizes everyone else as outsiders (often those other, larger and more socially benign churches are looked on with suspician as well) , thus allowing the world-view of the members to be contained in a tiny little circumscribed box with only fuzzy windows.  Get out of that box.  Do a bit of travel.  Drive to the nearest bigger city and spend three or four days just exploring and talking to people in coffee shops and record stores and hamburger stands.  Gain some perspective.  As your world gets bigger, the power that box has to instill fear in you will diminish as well. 

Quote:

I dont want to deconvert my grandma cause she would be devastated and I couldnt live with myself after that. But I want to able to say to her if talking about the bible that god is just wierd in some places and evil at times, with out thinking she is going to lay hands on me and if she does I want to say your just silly grandma.

I would however like to deconvert my aunts and uncles by talking about it if I can convince them then their faith wasnt that strong to begin with and I believe they could handle the loss.

You cannot deconvert anyone while you feel like you do right now.  You need to step away from it and establish who you are individually.  Find your path in this world.  Overcome that fear inside of you. 

It will be a tough road and I suspect you arejust at the beginning of it but it will be a crucible that will make you into an incredibly strong and bull-shit proof person when you are through it.  When you find that your fear has been replaced with pity, then start thinking about convincing someone else.  You may find you don't need to.

Wisdom lies not in thinking outside the box. Wisdom is the realization that there is no box. Truth and reality extend as far as the eye can see and infinitely further.


mellestad
Moderator
Posts: 2927
Joined: 2009-08-19
User is offlineOffline
BardlishtheMagnifico

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

The key to its power is perspective though.  The church group is an isolated in-group that characterizes everyone else as outsiders (often those other, larger and more socially benign churches are looked on with suspician as well) , thus allowing the world-view of the members to be contained in a tiny little circumscribed box with only fuzzy windows.  Get out of that box.  Do a bit of travel.  Drive to the nearest bigger city and spend three or four days just exploring and talking to people in coffee shops and record stores and hamburger stands.  Gain some perspective.  As your world gets bigger, the power that box has to instill fear in you will diminish as well. 

 

I'd say this is the best advice in the thread, so far.

 

Doing the stuff you are doing now, online, is great, it is a fantastic start.  Nothing really beats the real world though.  Right now these things have enormous religious influences in your life because they are a significant part of your life experience.  Fighting this directly, like you are doing here, is great, but it is also important to gain new experiences so this stuff doesn't make up such a large percentage of your world-view.

 

Think of it like diluting bullshit(religion) with fresh clean water(experiences and learning).  Sure, there is still bullshit, but as you pour in more water the percentage of bullshit in decreases.  That's my bad analogy for the day.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


redneF
atheistRational VIP!
redneF's picture
Posts: 1971
Joined: 2011-01-04
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote:there is

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

there is nothing mentally wrong with me...

All your posts prove otherwise.

If your posts are for real, and you're not simply a troll, you are quite dysfunctional.

Sorry, it's true.

 

But, if you're a theist trying to demonstrate what 'atheists' are like, that they're not all bleeding hearts, and altruists, then you're wasting your time.

No one ever claimed 'atheists' are nice, and will help you.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
mellestad

mellestad wrote:

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

The key to its power is perspective though.  The church group is an isolated in-group that characterizes everyone else as outsiders (often those other, larger and more socially benign churches are looked on with suspician as well) , thus allowing the world-view of the members to be contained in a tiny little circumscribed box with only fuzzy windows.  Get out of that box.  Do a bit of travel.  Drive to the nearest bigger city and spend three or four days just exploring and talking to people in coffee shops and record stores and hamburger stands.  Gain some perspective.  As your world gets bigger, the power that box has to instill fear in you will diminish as well. 

 

I'd say this is the best advice in the thread, so far.

 

Doing the stuff you are doing now, online, is great, it is a fantastic start.  Nothing really beats the real world though.  Right now these things have enormous religious influences in your life because they are a significant part of your life experience.  Fighting this directly, like you are doing here, is great, but it is also important to gain new experiences so this stuff doesn't make up such a large percentage of your world-view.

 

Think of it like diluting bullshit(religion) with fresh clean water(experiences and learning).  Sure, there is still bullshit, but as you pour in more water the percentage of bullshit in decreases.  That's my bad analogy for the day.

Yeah that analogy was good. I have already improved quite a bit just from getting on here.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Along with recent advice

 

I'd question the possibility of deconverting older matriarchal figures at all. Older women get a lot of social support from church and the chances they'll have an epiphany late in life are exceedingly low.

For a start you'd need to convince yourself you absolutely don't believe in god - at the moment you are talking 2 languages, whether you realise this or not. The only way to do this is entirely remake your view of the world on the basis of what can best be proven to be known. This will take a lot of reading. If you don't do this the first time some one says "where did we come from then" you'll be paralysed.

Personally, I think blasphemy is justified. Given the contrived lord of hosts plans to burn every one in hell through his boundless love and mercy, being told to sod off seems the right treatment of him to me.

If any other ruler of the world attempted this he'd be shot.  There is no known god ymalm, there's no one listening to your thoughts, no one is punishing you but yourself.

At some point, you will, as I did, feel an intense sense of relief as you dig your way out of the false, demeaning and threatening world view that has been foisted on you since childhood. When that moment comes you'll not have any further doubts.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
BardlishtheMagnifico

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I still havent demystified the whole thing it really has traumitized me. Dont think I am messed up or anything but it caused me to be afraid of going out into the world and running into those people from my chruch.

To walk away from a social network that has defined the major impetus of your life is a horribly traumatic thing.  When it happens to be a cult (the type of Pentecostalism you are describing qualifies soundly as a cult, I was there...) the ties are even deeper and more malicious.  It is likely that you will be years in shaking off the irrational and nagging fears in the back of your mind.  The most important thing is to recognize when your reservations are based on legitimate concerns and when it is a psychological kneejerk reaction based on the deeply interwoven emotional ties that these groups weave into your mind. 

A part of it is knowing that many of these folks are not bad people and they do feel real concern for you, but they will be utterly incapable of understanding the reasons you are walking away.  You want to be liked by them, family in particular, but you know damn well what they are thinking about the awful condition of your soul.  There is no shame in being a little afraid of the chains that once bound you.  You will grow past it though, trust me. 

Quote:
I wish I could say F*** you to those people but I would feel like I was saying it to somehting real. My fear of god and the bibles teachings comes from the fact that I have fear of them. Cj if you read this thats why its so hard for me to skake it off everytime I am around my grandma its like I am around the presense of god or the holy spirit. So if I could see it for the foolishness it is I wouldnt have thought much about it.

Be rational.  Stand up for how you feel.  Speaking to my immediate family about how I believe (or the lack thereof) took nearly ten years for me.  In fact, it was a few weeks past that my Mother actually realized that I am an atheist.  I'm 35, I left religion at around 25.  Your fear is a very natural aversion to the psychological isolation you are anticipating should you fully express your reservations, and it is a mother-fucker! Your family will likely suspect and find out and it will be incredibly shocking and they will place much well meaning pressure on you and it will be tough.  Really tough.  There is nothing wrong with you in feeling that trepidation. 

I would advise against being aggressive towards your family with it.  Live as you see fit, explore who you are and the world around you and question everything.  Question everything, question everything!  Work to recognise when a logical fallacy is being masked by an emotional plea.  If the conversation comes up, by all means stand up for your views and skepticism, in spite of the lump in your throat and hammering in your chest... and the lump will be there and your heart will hammer. 

Quote:

My friend from school I went to church with a few times in high school went to a pentocoastal church as well but it was a much nicer building bigger and everyone wasnt as crazy but the one I went to was old and everyone seemed unlearned about the outside world well not everyone. If had grown up in that church with my friend I would have had an eaiser time leaving the church and confronting people like that even at the other church cause I have to be able to stand up to people like that and not be afraid of hurting their feelings or making my self fearful of being struck by lighting.

I typically attended small, rural churches growing up.  It was common for the pastor to be the de facto ruler.  Pastor X approved marriages, was consulted and listened to on jobs changes, selling the house, buying a house, dating the girl, reading a book, the whole nine yards.  Growing up in that kind of controlling environment puts some baggage in the trunk for you and it is sticky stuff and hard to cast off. 

The key to its power is perspective though.  The church group is an isolated in-group that characterizes everyone else as outsiders (often those other, larger and more socially benign churches are looked on with suspician as well) , thus allowing the world-view of the members to be contained in a tiny little circumscribed box with only fuzzy windows.  Get out of that box.  Do a bit of travel.  Drive to the nearest bigger city and spend three or four days just exploring and talking to people in coffee shops and record stores and hamburger stands.  Gain some perspective.  As your world gets bigger, the power that box has to instill fear in you will diminish as well. 

Quote:

I dont want to deconvert my grandma cause she would be devastated and I couldnt live with myself after that. But I want to able to say to her if talking about the bible that god is just wierd in some places and evil at times, with out thinking she is going to lay hands on me and if she does I want to say your just silly grandma.

I would however like to deconvert my aunts and uncles by talking about it if I can convince them then their faith wasnt that strong to begin with and I believe they could handle the loss.

You cannot deconvert anyone while you feel like you do right now.  You need to step away from it and establish who you are individually.  Find your path in this world.  Overcome that fear inside of you. 

It will be a tough road and I suspect you arejust at the beginning of it but it will be a crucible that will make you into an incredibly strong and bull-shit proof person when you are through it.  When you find that your fear has been replaced with pity, then start thinking about convincing someone else.  You may find you don't need to.

Thanks for the advice.

I would like to know what gives those people the authority to tell somone something like god is speaking through them. They always say it like " And lo I see the things that bother you and lo I know that you dont understand but yea I have a plan for you not to hinder you but to prosper you". I have heard evrything from telling people what to do with the rest of their life to getting off your medications to stop listening to certain kinds of music or what you are supposed to do in the ministry or telling you to wait for there is a special person I have for you and telling people to read certain verses and stuff like that. I seem to think my dad said that he was prophesied to tell me to get rid of some magazines I had but it was so long ago that I can't think if he just said that he was told to be a better father and knew about the magazines. I am thinkning it would be impossible to predict that. After losing my faith I asked the friend from the other church if he had any prophecies and yes but they were very vague and could mean anything and one time he went to a different church in the middle of serivce( it was a rivival) and the preacher came up to him and said you need to ask jesus in to your heart son and he said his heart started pounding and he just looked at him and said I am saved and the preacher said what I meant was you need to get closer to god. This sounds like a cop out cause he said he interpreted the spirit wrong but what followed could have applied to any christian and they would beleive it. Somtimes when I was at church and alot of my cousins were there( rarely happens) my aunt said she wanted everyone to pray for us I have never liked her because of this.  What causes this behavior in someone I have even witnessed people who were shy and backward come up the ranks in the church and speak in tounges and prophecy. Is there anything biblical to discredit church behavior like this would christians of old be rolling over in the graves at this?


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
If accounts of his character are correct

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I still havent demystified the whole thing it really has traumitized me. Dont think I am messed up or anything but it caused me to be afraid of going out into the world and running into those people from my chruch.

To walk away from a social network that has defined the major impetus of your life is a horribly traumatic thing.  When it happens to be a cult (the type of Pentecostalism you are describing qualifies soundly as a cult, I was there...) the ties are even deeper and more malicious.  It is likely that you will be years in shaking off the irrational and nagging fears in the back of your mind.  The most important thing is to recognize when your reservations are based on legitimate concerns and when it is a psychological kneejerk reaction based on the deeply interwoven emotional ties that these groups weave into your mind. 

A part of it is knowing that many of these folks are not bad people and they do feel real concern for you, but they will be utterly incapable of understanding the reasons you are walking away.  You want to be liked by them, family in particular, but you know damn well what they are thinking about the awful condition of your soul.  There is no shame in being a little afraid of the chains that once bound you.  You will grow past it though, trust me. 

Quote:
I wish I could say F*** you to those people but I would feel like I was saying it to somehting real. My fear of god and the bibles teachings comes from the fact that I have fear of them. Cj if you read this thats why its so hard for me to skake it off everytime I am around my grandma its like I am around the presense of god or the holy spirit. So if I could see it for the foolishness it is I wouldnt have thought much about it.

Be rational.  Stand up for how you feel.  Speaking to my immediate family about how I believe (or the lack thereof) took nearly ten years for me.  In fact, it was a few weeks past that my Mother actually realized that I am an atheist.  I'm 35, I left religion at around 25.  Your fear is a very natural aversion to the psychological isolation you are anticipating should you fully express your reservations, and it is a mother-fucker! Your family will likely suspect and find out and it will be incredibly shocking and they will place much well meaning pressure on you and it will be tough.  Really tough.  There is nothing wrong with you in feeling that trepidation. 

I would advise against being aggressive towards your family with it.  Live as you see fit, explore who you are and the world around you and question everything.  Question everything, question everything!  Work to recognise when a logical fallacy is being masked by an emotional plea.  If the conversation comes up, by all means stand up for your views and skepticism, in spite of the lump in your throat and hammering in your chest... and the lump will be there and your heart will hammer. 

Quote:

My friend from school I went to church with a few times in high school went to a pentocoastal church as well but it was a much nicer building bigger and everyone wasnt as crazy but the one I went to was old and everyone seemed unlearned about the outside world well not everyone. If had grown up in that church with my friend I would have had an eaiser time leaving the church and confronting people like that even at the other church cause I have to be able to stand up to people like that and not be afraid of hurting their feelings or making my self fearful of being struck by lighting.

I typically attended small, rural churches growing up.  It was common for the pastor to be the de facto ruler.  Pastor X approved marriages, was consulted and listened to on jobs changes, selling the house, buying a house, dating the girl, reading a book, the whole nine yards.  Growing up in that kind of controlling environment puts some baggage in the trunk for you and it is sticky stuff and hard to cast off. 

The key to its power is perspective though.  The church group is an isolated in-group that characterizes everyone else as outsiders (often those other, larger and more socially benign churches are looked on with suspician as well) , thus allowing the world-view of the members to be contained in a tiny little circumscribed box with only fuzzy windows.  Get out of that box.  Do a bit of travel.  Drive to the nearest bigger city and spend three or four days just exploring and talking to people in coffee shops and record stores and hamburger stands.  Gain some perspective.  As your world gets bigger, the power that box has to instill fear in you will diminish as well. 

Quote:

I dont want to deconvert my grandma cause she would be devastated and I couldnt live with myself after that. But I want to able to say to her if talking about the bible that god is just wierd in some places and evil at times, with out thinking she is going to lay hands on me and if she does I want to say your just silly grandma.

I would however like to deconvert my aunts and uncles by talking about it if I can convince them then their faith wasnt that strong to begin with and I believe they could handle the loss.

You cannot deconvert anyone while you feel like you do right now.  You need to step away from it and establish who you are individually.  Find your path in this world.  Overcome that fear inside of you. 

It will be a tough road and I suspect you arejust at the beginning of it but it will be a crucible that will make you into an incredibly strong and bull-shit proof person when you are through it.  When you find that your fear has been replaced with pity, then start thinking about convincing someone else.  You may find you don't need to.

Thanks for the advice.

I would like to know what gives those people the authority to tell somone something like god is speaking through them. They always say it like " And lo I see the things that bother you and lo I know that you dont understand but yea I have a plan for you not to hinder you but to prosper you". I have heard evrything from telling people what to do with the rest of their life to getting off your medications to stop listening to certain kinds of music or what you are supposed to do in the ministry or telling you to wait for there is a special person I have for you and telling people to read certain verses and stuff like that. I seem to think my dad said that he was prophesied to tell me to get rid of some magazines I had but it was so long ago that I can't think if he just said that he was told to be a better father and knew about the magazines. I am thinkning it would be impossible to predict that. After losing my faith I asked the friend from the other church if he had any prophecies and yes but they were very vague and could mean anything and one time he went to a different church in the middle of serivce( it was a rivival) and the preacher came up to him and said you need to ask jesus in to your heart son and he said his heart started pounding and he just looked at him and said I am saved and the preacher said what I meant was you need to get closer to god. This sounds like a cop out cause he said he interpreted the spirit wrong but what followed could have applied to any christian and they would beleive it. Somtimes when I was at church and alot of my cousins were there( rarely happens) my aunt said she wanted everyone to pray for us I have never liked her because of this.  What causes this behavior in someone I have even witnessed people who were shy and backward come up the ranks in the church and speak in tounges and prophecy. Is there anything biblical to discredit church behavior like this would christians of old be rolling over in the graves at this?

 

at least a part of the creature jesus would loathe most christians and all church dogma with a deep passion.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


redneF
atheistRational VIP!
redneF's picture
Posts: 1971
Joined: 2011-01-04
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist wrote: At

Atheistextremist wrote:

 At some point, you will, as I did, feel an intense sense of relief as you dig your way out of the false, demeaning and threatening world view that has been foisted on you since childhood. When that moment comes you'll not have any further doubts.

I think it was Daniel Dennet that I heard during a lecture, give an illustration of how 'emotional' and 'overwhelmed' some people can get over a thought, while others have no real emotional response at all, but simply model both scenarios.

The example he used was centered around "Imagine your feelings if we were to discover there was other lifeforms in the universe".

It could be a deeply scary thought. It could overwhelm some people.

Now contrast that to "Imagine your feelings if we were to discover that 'we' were the only planet with lifeforms, in the universe".

It could be a deeply scary thought. It could overwhelm some people.

 

The same can be said about afterlife/eternal death.

The same can be said about god/no god.

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist wrote: I'd

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

I'd question the possibility of deconverting older matriarchal figures at all. Older women get a lot of social support from church and the chances they'll have an epiphany late in life are exceedingly low.

For a start you'd need to convince yourself you absolutely don't believe in god - at the moment you are talking 2 languages, whether you realise this or not. The only way to do this is entirely remake your view of the world on the basis of what can best be proven to be known. This will take a lot of reading. If you don't do this the first time some one says "where did we come from then" you'll be paralysed.

Personally, I think blasphemy is justified. Given the contrived lord of hosts plans to burn every one in hell through his boundless love and mercy, being told to sod off seems the right treatment of him to me.

If any other ruler of the world attempted this he'd be shot.  There is no known god ymalm, there's no one listening to your thoughts, no one is punishing you but yourself.

At some point, you will, as I did, feel an intense sense of relief as you dig your way out of the false, demeaning and threatening world view that has been foisted on you since childhood. When that moment comes you'll not have any further doubts.

 

 

Yeah you are right about everything you said but I am convinced the bible is complete bullshit but it eases my mind when I understand what the purposes of it was. I tend to project a combination of my dad and grandma as god in my ego, so I tend to feel uncomfortable talking to them about this stuff like they have more wisdom than me. My grandma said during a conversation one time it is better to marry than to burn and my cousin was there and had actualy had been with many people sexualy and could tell maybe it got to her, I just wanted to say that was sick that someone deserves even a finite amount of pain induced on them because they had sex, you think chocolate cake tastes good is that sinful too. But I keep my mouth shut. I feel like there are other people in my extended family that probably have doubts but are overwhelmed thinking they are some kind of black sheep if they only knew I was an atheist maybe they would stand up to and then the next person and so on. Youre right I do need to learn a thing or too about my position my cousin believes there is evidence for the exodus story and the flood and I dont have the orginization skills to show him that not only is there no evidence but this is why it couldnt happen and things of that nature.

On another note you know the story of exodus where it says god kills the first born cattle and then later kills them again and then later kills them a third time. Is there any good apolgetics to this?


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
redneF wrote:ymalmsteen887

redneF wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

what do you guys think of prophecy and the implications it can have on a person I am still trying to shake off some of the prophecies I was given. Do you have a good way to discredit them?

My recommendation to you, is to substitute your previous learning (previous information), with new learning (new information), by reading a lot.

About science, biology, physics, and most importantly, history.

It's the best way for you to evolve.

 

You are an obsessive complusive. That much is crystal clear. And you like to worship. That's also clear.

OCD's are most unlikely to simply kick a habit, but rather, substitute one for the other.

You are most unlikely to transform quickly, from your previous thinking, to radically different thinking.

It's not going to happen for you.

You're not wired that way.

That much is clear.

 

This wrong completely wrong. I don't know how you concluded I like to worship. I do not have obsessive complusive disorder. Are you saying everyone who is raised religious and tries to leave but is afraid of hell has the diesase? I have already improved alot just from all the input from everyone so you are absolutley wrong so you shouldnt feel like you accomplished anything with your diagnosis.

redneF wrote:

None of us has the 'silver bullet' that's going to rid you of your previous indoctrinations.

Sorry.

We just don't, because there isn't one.

Atheists are the antithesis of indoctrination.

Atheists are free thinkers.

We don't like to be told what's real. We like to investigate things for ourselves, and decide for ourselves, what we adopt as true, or likely/unlikely to be true.

Wrong again I have gotten tons of help being on here the way you say its like every man for himself. You are saying your too troubled to help someone and no by defintion atheists are not free thinkers they just lack belief in a god. All your saying is you base things on reason and evidence and not what majority says or what your emotions lead you to feel this has nothing to do with helping someone. I am a person who admires reason that is why I am not a christian anymore I don't believe its true But I still have the same emotional responses to certain stimuli. Also what if you found out that certain things in the bible were demostrable false but there were faith healers curing amputees in the name of jeebus wouldnt that be weird. You know from an intellectual side that it can't be true but there are still mysteries about it that you want to further investagate thats what I am doing here I am simple trying to figure some of these things out and maybe someone else will read it and see that they are not the only ones going through that paticular thing.

I want to be cool with you on these forums I will constantly change as time goes by and move on to other things I dont want it to be you always following me around on different threads stopping me from being who I am and saying what I want to say. If you believe in free thought then let me have it and stop thinking the world is black and white and you can just label people things.


redneF
atheistRational VIP!
redneF's picture
Posts: 1971
Joined: 2011-01-04
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote: You

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

 You are saying your too troubled to help someone

Don't put words in my mouth, like a petulant infantile.

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:
by defintion atheists are not free thinkers they just lack belief in a god.

Free thinkers could never have imagined an Abrahamic god, on their own.

Duhhh....

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3705
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Clearly, atheists aren't

Clearly, atheists aren't necessarily nice people that will help you (hint hint). But I will try to help you with any questions you have.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Foxhound
Theist
Posts: 29
Joined: 2011-03-10
User is offlineOffline
Theist View on Speaking in Tongues

Honestly, there isn't much purpose that I can see for speaking in tongues in the United States. True, it is in the Bible as one of the spiritual gifts, but there it is even said to be of the least of these gifts. We must ask why this gift would be employed, though. Obviously God would be communicating something of importance, but at this point, when we have the complete Bible to guide us, what would that be? Not saying that it isn't still an active tool that God uses around the world today. The problem, which many have already addressed in this post, is that too many people in the United States today are using it to pump up their reputations as "devout." They are literally going into back rooms of the church and trying to learn how to speak tongues. Not really how it's supposed to work. Also, Paul states that there should not be more than three poeple speaking in tongues at a time, because it confuses people, and that there should always be a translator. Otherwise, do it in the privacy of your own home.


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
Foxhound wrote:Honestly,

Foxhound wrote:

Honestly, there isn't much purpose that I can see for speaking in tongues in the United States. True, it is in the Bible as one of the spiritual gifts, but there it is even said to be of the least of these gifts. We must ask why this gift would be employed, though. Obviously God would be communicating something of importance, but at this point, when we have the complete Bible to guide us, what would that be? Not saying that it isn't still an active tool that God uses around the world today. The problem, which many have already addressed in this post, is that too many people in the United States today are using it to pump up their reputations as "devout." They are literally going into back rooms of the church and trying to learn how to speak tongues. Not really how it's supposed to work. Also, Paul states that there should not be more than three poeple speaking in tongues at a time, because it confuses people, and that there should always be a translator. Otherwise, do it in the privacy of your own home.

I agree with you that there doesn't seem to be a purpose to it. Alot of christians don't even believe it applies for today. You have not brought any truth if there was a holy spook to guide people to understanding than someone would have already put out this info cause surely someone has figured it out, right? If there are people who fake and no christian can even agree on if its real or not then why even think about it, its obvioulsy a stupid high people get from being so giddy with feelings of god loves me and I am giong to heaven someday that alone is enough to not take it as truth. The bible should just say that when people speak gibberish and roll on the floor and scream that its a gift from god.

 


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
Hey guys one thing I didn't

Hey guys one thing I didn't mention but ou probably figured out is that I am trying to go from thinking my grandma is this wise and intillgent person of faith to just another brainwashed person who has no other way of viewing the world. I reckon its a combination of emotional attachment as if I am hurting her feelings by thinking that and a kind od she must know something I don't know. I really think my entire fear of god and hell comes strictly from my families continued belief in it which is different than most people who once they find out its real they just move on. But I think I know why It was drilled into my head that if you have doubts that is the devil or when you start to feel good about sinning that is when you have moved to far away from god. These pyshological triggers are almost full proof but the fact that I have been living my life the way I have shows that reason and logic will prevail over that stuff. So I still have to get over some hang ups.


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote:Hey guys

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Hey guys one thing I didn't mention but ou probably figured out is that I am trying to go from thinking my grandma is this wise and intillgent person of faith to just another brainwashed person who has no other way of viewing the world. I reckon its a combination of emotional attachment as if I am hurting her feelings by thinking that and a kind od she must know something I don't know. I really think my entire fear of god and hell comes strictly from my families continued belief in it which is different than most people who once they find out its real they just move on. But I think I know why It was drilled into my head that if you have doubts that is the devil or when you start to feel good about sinning that is when you have moved to far away from god. These pyshological triggers are almost full proof but the fact that I have been living my life the way I have shows that reason and logic will prevail over that stuff. So I still have to get over some hang ups.

Wow these threads aren't very active when i am not on here or something,lol.

I went to my grandmas for my uncles birthday and nobobdy said anything to me about being a hellbound or anything. So I think I am halfay there.

Also my grandma asked one of her sons if we could ever have a earthquake in tennessee and he said no and explained to her the ring of fire and stuff and then when were talking about it for awhile and she said its things like this that show that the end is near and the bravest thing I said was we have always had diaseters like this and what about all the plagues and wars and especailly the holocaust why did'nt that get jesus attention(I didnt say it like that exactly) and my uncle said how do you know we haven't seen the worst and that was it but I was thinking so whats it going to take earth opening up and swallowing las vegas. When someone mentioned not even the son of man knows the end I just wanted to say so jesus wasn't god, lol. They also started talking about jehovah's witnesses and why there wrong and it pissed me off that I didn't say anything about the way they interpret their bible as well. When they mentioned that JWs predicted the end of the world and I wanted to bring up how the whole of christianity is a lost cause since paul and jesus both were sure that the end was then. Do you have any tips on what to tell them when they say their version of thinking the end is soon at hand and how jesus was supposed to come back then?


Jean Chauvin
Theistard
Jean Chauvin's picture
Posts: 1211
Joined: 2010-11-19
User is offlineOffline
OP Answer

OP Answer

Speaking in tongues usually involves somebody being possed by demons. Usually people fake it so that way they can get koodos for being "spiritual."

Tongues were used (The greek word for tongues is languages). Those who did not know other languages understood (Acts 2). But the notion is no longer (I Corinthians 12:Cool since the canon was completed in 98AD

The Church knew this. And then, nearly 1900 years later, some nut job started the penetcostal undetstanding of tongues. His name was Parsons, a white supremist.

His student started the Azuzu movement which I attended the 100% anniversay in L.A. in 2006 to document psychos.

But technically, the first modern notion of this  uprise was in 1896 in Chicago, but it wasn't until 1906 until an orgy of nonsense broke loose.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3705
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887 wrote:Wow

ymalmsteen887 wrote:
Wow these threads aren't very active when i am not on here or something,lol.

Your posts spark a lot of conversation.

ymalmsteen887 wrote:
Do you have any tips on what to tell them when they say their version of thinking the end is soon at hand and how jesus was supposed to come back then?

Lol, honestly, if I was in that kind of situation, I probably wouldn't even say anything. I don't like getting in a debate with a big group of religious people if I can help it. But, I'm thinking that if I did say something, I would ask questions to make them think. With the right kind of approach, you don't even have to know much about the topic to poke holes in their perspective. In general, try to get them to explain how they've reached their conclusions to you. How? Why?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
Jean Chauvin wrote:OP

Jean Chauvin wrote:

OP Answer

Speaking in tongues usually involves somebody being possed by demons. Usually people fake it so that way they can get koodos for being "spiritual."

Tongues were used (The greek word for tongues is languages). Those who did not know other languages understood (Acts 2). But the notion is no longer (I Corinthians 12:Cool since the canon was completed in 98AD

The Church knew this. And then, nearly 1900 years later, some nut job started the penetcostal undetstanding of tongues. His name was Parsons, a white supremist.

His student started the Azuzu movement which I attended the 100% anniversay in L.A. in 2006 to document psychos.

But technically, the first modern notion of this  uprise was in 1896 in Chicago, but it wasn't until 1906 until an orgy of nonsense broke loose.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Even though we probably don't agree on a great number of things I appreciate your response on how the whole thing got started I never saw in the bible support for speaking in tounges at least not the way my church does it.


mellestad
Moderator
Posts: 2927
Joined: 2009-08-19
User is offlineOffline
ymalmsteen887

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Hey guys one thing I didn't mention but ou probably figured out is that I am trying to go from thinking my grandma is this wise and intillgent person of faith to just another brainwashed person who has no other way of viewing the world. I reckon its a combination of emotional attachment as if I am hurting her feelings by thinking that and a kind od she must know something I don't know. I really think my entire fear of god and hell comes strictly from my families continued belief in it which is different than most people who once they find out its real they just move on. But I think I know why It was drilled into my head that if you have doubts that is the devil or when you start to feel good about sinning that is when you have moved to far away from god. These pyshological triggers are almost full proof but the fact that I have been living my life the way I have shows that reason and logic will prevail over that stuff. So I still have to get over some hang ups.

Wow these threads aren't very active when i am not on here or something,lol.

I went to my grandmas for my uncles birthday and nobobdy said anything to me about being a hellbound or anything. So I think I am halfay there.

Also my grandma asked one of her sons if we could ever have a earthquake in tennessee and he said no and explained to her the ring of fire and stuff and then when were talking about it for awhile and she said its things like this that show that the end is near and the bravest thing I said was we have always had diaseters like this and what about all the plagues and wars and especailly the holocaust why did'nt that get jesus attention(I didnt say it like that exactly) and my uncle said how do you know we haven't seen the worst and that was it but I was thinking so whats it going to take earth opening up and swallowing las vegas. When someone mentioned not even the son of man knows the end I just wanted to say so jesus wasn't god, lol. They also started talking about jehovah's witnesses and why there wrong and it pissed me off that I didn't say anything about the way they interpret their bible as well. When they mentioned that JWs predicted the end of the world and I wanted to bring up how the whole of christianity is a lost cause since paul and jesus both were sure that the end was then. Do you have any tips on what to tell them when they say their version of thinking the end is soon at hand and how jesus was supposed to come back then?

 

Unless your family is very open minded, I can't think of any way to approach the discussion that would result in a positive outcome.  I try to avoid religion at large family gatherings for that reason.  You can't argue with a mob.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


ymalmsteen887
Posts: 306
Joined: 2011-02-04
User is offlineOffline
I forgot about this video

I forgot about this video this tv station is the town I am from this is what the people from my church act like. I love the comment from this guy on there about how this is moonshine and shotgun music and the pre nicean christians would be rolling over in their graves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4tg4CftkPw&playnext=1&list=PL6669DFDE142F8A7C