Speaking In Tounges

ymalmsteen887
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Speaking In Tounges

What are speaking in tounges in religion I grew up in a pentacostal church and never spole in tounges neither did other people I know who are still devout christians so whats going on what are the logical explanations for it Ive seen people just repeat the same syllables over and over so I know it isnt a language.

So what is it and why are some people more suscetiple to it.


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Speaking in tongues or

Speaking in tongues or "glossolalia" is something practiced by certain religious groups during worship. To put it as bluntly as possible, they start speaking gibberish. I think it might be psychologically pleasing.

Many of those groups would claim that the spirit is actually granting them the ability to speak a "holy" language or a foreign language. Of course, neither of these claims are supported by the evidence. There is simply no sufficient evidence of even a single case of someone speaking a foreign language fluently. And the units of sound uttered by people during their episodes is not any form of communication i.e. there is no relationship between any concepts and the sounds they make.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:So what

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

So what is it and why are some people more suscetiple to it.

I suppose there's a number of reasons but here's two:

Somtimes, it's because some people are more gullable that others...

Sometimes, it's peer pressure. I know a lot of kids from HS who were pentecostal and would fake it in church to get attention...

I knew someone who went to one of the chuches once and started "speaking in tongues" to see of if it was legit...thing is he spoke a real language. The interpretter missed it all....

 

 

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It's representing the sound

It's representing the sound that common sense would make, as it was running out of their ears, if common sense could make sound pressure waves in the air.

It's to show everyone that they're really getting rid of their common senses.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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What about those people(and

What about those people(and i know some) that claim they were laid hands on and started to speak in tounges on the spot I never actually witnessed this but I hear about it all the time from people who believe this stuff.


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 ymalmsteen887 wrote:What

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What about those people(and i know some) that claim they ....

They're deluded.

And bvllsh1tters.

Every single one of them.

Plain and simple.

 

Don't waste another fricken' minute of your life, that you'll never get back, listening to their pure bvllsh1t, voodoo claims.

 

If they was any truth to their supernatural claims, or beliefs, they would go for the million dollar prize from the JREF and take it back to their church, or whatever voodoo sect they frequent, and legitimize their claims/beliefs, and earn respect from others.

I wouldn't hold my breath...

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:What

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What about those people(and i know some) that claim they were laid hands on and started to speak in tounges on the spot I never actually witnessed this but I hear about it all the time from people who believe this stuff.

Hypnotic powers of suggestion.

Group settings, especially ritualistic group settings, are known to have massive amounts of stimulation on certain parts of the brain.

Speaking in tongues is not unique to the christian religion. In fact, some christian sects argue that speaking in tongues is satanic even.

You have no doubt, heard of tribes in Africa and people in Haiti that practice what is called "spirit religions". Most laypeople refer to it as voodoo, but the name varies from country to country, some call is Voudon, Santeria, Yoruba and Candomble. In their ritualistic settings, many of the followers call "the gods/goddesses" of their pantheon down into their bodies. They are known to behave  and act very differently when doing so. The same type of mental stimulation of the brain that can delude the mind into believing such stuff is real is the same powers of suggestion that works for unknown tongues.

Native American Shamans have have similiar practices of communication with the "spirit" world. This is not always accomplished through drug induced means, this is sometimes achieved through ritual.

Ritual is known to have powerful effects on the mind. Chanting, singing, repetitive movements, all can combine to have powerful effects upon people. If people are not aware that all of these stimulations and feelings were coming from their minds, they could mistakenly attribute it to spiritual influences.

The same part of the brain is stimulated when Sufi Islamic dancers are practicing their rituals, when Buddhist monks are meditating, when Catholics are singing the liturgy of the mass, and when people are speaking in tongues.

It's really no great mystery about these powers of stimulation.

Kids that go to a Marilyn Manson concert, end up in the mosh pit beating the hell out of each other and not feeling any pain until the next day are feeling the same sorts of stimulation in the brain that comes from group settings and such.

For a real good dissection of this read here :

http://www.skepdic.com/glossol.html

EDIT : While most "spiritual" activity comes from a certain part of brain stimulation, there is one slight variation in the brain chemistry stimulation during speaking tongues. However, the scientist who monitored the brains of people speaking in tongues, found evidence for neurological causes rather than mysterious and inexplicable phenomena.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:What

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What about those people(and i know some) that claim they were laid hands on and started to speak in tounges on the spot I never actually witnessed this but I hear about it all the time from people who believe this stuff.

 

I went to Foursquare Gospel when I was in junior high (11-13 years old).  My very best friend was the preacher's kid.  They aren't quite Holy Rollers, but close.  Anyway, I spoke in tongues a couple of times just to see if I could do it.  I quit when I realized the rich old lady who usually spoke in tongues would start right after anyone else started.  Very deliberately, she would watch you and then close her eyes and start.  The preacher's family all ran over to her since she was their biggest contributor.  Okay, so that is the deliberate kind.  People wanting attention and getting it.  Watch some of the movies on youtube.  The speaker "of tongues" is getting all kinds of attention.

Second, is the kind where you are all hopped up and jazzed from listening to a very charismatic speaker.  You get the same sort of mob response at a concert.  Everyone is all excited and they are all dancing and yelling and waving their arms and ..... See if you can tell the difference between one of those youtube videos of people speaking in "tongues" and the pit at a rock concert.  People may find themselves doing things in the group/mob they would never do at home alone.  Hmmm.......

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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For some time I hung out in

For some time I hung out in a small Pentecostal youth group, to get some really weird experiences on my account, I guess. They spoke in tongues frequently and with great passion. In fact, it looked like they must be in some kind of religious trance, otherwise it does not work for them, as they said. They take it as a religious experience. I think it's just weird. Probably their brain centre of speech is in state of severe religional shock, so it makes them say nonsenses.

If I'd be a music composer, I'd record the tongue-speaking sessions and use it as a sound effect, added some heavy beat and bass, some dark melodies and a couple more things. I'd make a beautifully sinister psychedelic music track out of it. Because, you know, speaking in tongues sounds really creepy. If DJs can mix exotic tribal and religional chants into their music, why couldn't someone mix in some evil-sounding gibberish that the Pentecostals speak with.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:If I'd be a

Luminon wrote:

If I'd be a music composer, I'd record the tongue-speaking sessions and use it as a sound effect, added some heavy beat and bass, some dark melodies and a couple more things. I'd make a beautifully sinister psychedelic music track out of it. Because, you know, speaking in tongues sounds really creepy. If DJs can mix exotic tribal and religional chants into their music, why couldn't someone mix in some evil-sounding gibberish that the Pentecostals speak with.

Laughing out loud That's funny Luminon.

I agree though, you could probably make some pretty spooky music out of tongue speaking if you had some real bizarre synthesizer mixes and stuff.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 For those who have never

 For those who have never been to a Pentacostal service I have to recommend it. I went a few times and while they are all freaking crazy at least they have fun singing and dancing. I always figured speaking is tongues is what you did when you started getting bored with the sermon. Jump up yell hallelujah! Or start speaking in tongues. 

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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Beyond Saving wrote: For

Beyond Saving wrote:

 For those who have never been to a Pentacostal service I have to recommend it. I went a few times and while they are all freaking crazy at least they have fun singing and dancing. I always figured speaking is tongues is what you did when you started getting bored with the sermon. Jump up yell hallelujah! Or start speaking in tongues. 

I was invited to a Pentecostal service several years ago. I agree that it is a rather unusual experience.

But, I have always wanted to attend one of those Snake Handling Pentecostal Services. There is just something so creepy about the idea of those and the pictures that I have seen, that it does arouse my somewhat morbid curiousity.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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cj wrote:ymalmsteen887

cj wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What about those people(and i know some) that claim they were laid hands on and started to speak in tounges on the spot I never actually witnessed this but I hear about it all the time from people who believe this stuff.

 

I went to Foursquare Gospel when I was in junior high (11-13 years old).  My very best friend was the preacher's kid.  They aren't quite Holy Rollers, but close.  Anyway, I spoke in tongues a couple of times just to see if I could do it.  I quit when I realized the rich old lady who usually spoke in tongues would start right after anyone else started.  Very deliberately, she would watch you and then close her eyes and start.  The preacher's family all ran over to her since she was their biggest contributor.  Okay, so that is the deliberate kind.  People wanting attention and getting it.  Watch some of the movies on youtube.  The speaker "of tongues" is getting all kinds of attention.

Second, is the kind where you are all hopped up and jazzed from listening to a very charismatic speaker.  You get the same sort of mob response at a concert.  Everyone is all excited and they are all dancing and yelling and waving their arms and ..... See if you can tell the difference between one of those youtube videos of people speaking in "tongues" and the pit at a rock concert.  People may find themselves doing things in the group/mob they would never do at home alone.  Hmmm.......

 

Are you saying this is something I could reproduce myself by myselfnew what I was doing?

Here is a video doing what I was talking about it I dont know if she is really doing it or just joking. She seems to know what she is talking about.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Klda0-6FSU&feature=related

 


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:Are you

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Are you saying this is something I could reproduce myself by myselfnew what I was doing?

Here is a video doing what I was talking about it I dont know if she is really doing it or just joking. She seems to know what she is talking about.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Klda0-6FSU&feature=related

 

This person is just joking - look at her eyes - she is laughing inside.  She says so herself.  If someone says they are making it up, you probably should take their word for it.  And yeah, you could do it if you wanted to.  Why you would want to, I don't know.  Maybe it would get your relatives off your back, though I wouldn't want to be that big of a hypocrite myself.  As I said, your grandma believes she is not making it up.  She has fooled herself.  But you don't have to tell her so.  If you do, she will just get all defensive.  She has to fool herself in order to keep her vision of herself.  "Speaking in tongues" is a part of your grandma's view of her internal self. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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cj wrote:ymalmsteen887

cj wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Are you saying this is something I could reproduce myself by myselfnew what I was doing?

Here is a video doing what I was talking about it I dont know if she is really doing it or just joking. She seems to know what she is talking about.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Klda0-6FSU&feature=related

 

This person is just joking - look at her eyes - she is laughing inside.  She says so herself.  If someone says they are making it up, you probably should take their word for it.  And yeah, you could do it if you wanted to.  Why you would want to, I don't know.  Maybe it would get your relatives off your back, though I wouldn't want to be that big of a hypocrite myself.  As I said, your grandma believes she is not making it up.  She has fooled herself.  But you don't have to tell her so.  If you do, she will just get all defensive.  She has to fool herself in order to keep her vision of herself.  "Speaking in tongues" is a part of your grandma's view of her internal self. 

 

You are misreading what I am saying I know the girl in the link is not a christian I wanted to know if she was actually putting her mind in a euphoric state to achieve this or just trying to make people laugh I couldnt tell by the nature of her video. I dont want to do it to please anybody I would like to get over my fear of it and finally see it for the bullshit it is.


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:You are

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

You are misreading what I am saying I know the girl in the link is not a christian I wanted to know if she was actually putting her mind in a euphoric state to achieve this or just trying to make people laugh I couldnt tell by the nature of her video. I dont want to do it to please anybody I would like to get over my fear of it and finally see it for the bullshit it is.

 

My apologies.  I think you can't tell if she is in a euphoric state unless she is hooked up to a MRI machine.  From my own experience, it helps to be in a euphoric state.  You can get more realistic sounding words out, otherwise, you just go blah, blah, blah.  Or at least it was that way for me.

I think the point of her video is that it doesn't take a "holy ghost" to get into a euphoric state and speak nonsense syllables.  And you can do it with whatever image you wish to use to get to that state - sun, holy ghost, enlightenment, etc.

Euphoric states feel good.  It can feel good enough people get hooked on the feeling.  It is very similar to taking drugs or sex.  Personally I don't like drugs, and I think sex is better than the "holy ghost" any day.  But as they said in my youth - whatever turns you on.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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This sounds about right to me.

 

redneF wrote:

It's representing the sound that common sense would make, as it was running out of their ears.

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Can we blame those people

Can we blame those people for going with the flow?
I am pretty sure I would have joined in if I would have gone to such a church... But I grew up in a normal church, and my parents allowed me to explore the world without proper indoctrination.
If they hadn't I would most likely be amongst VenomFangX his ranks, or something Laughing out loud
Also, they can't help being gullible, right?


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what do you guys think of

what do you guys think of prophecy and the implications it can have on a person I am still trying to shake off some of the prophecies I was given. Do you have a good way to discredit them?


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:what do

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

what do you guys think of prophecy and the implications it can have on a person I am still trying to shake off some of the prophecies I was given. Do you have a good way to discredit them?

 

Simple, just prophesize that all prophecies are bullshit. 

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:what do

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

what do you guys think of prophecy and the implications it can have on a person I am still trying to shake off some of the prophecies I was given. Do you have a good way to discredit them?

My recommendation to you, is to substitute your previous learning (previous information), with new learning (new information), by reading a lot.

About science, biology, physics, and most importantly, history.

It's the best way for you to evolve.

 

You are an obsessive complusive. That much is crystal clear. And you like to worship. That's also clear.

OCD's are most unlikely to simply kick a habit, but rather, substitute one for the other.

You are most unlikely to transform quickly, from your previous thinking, to radically different thinking.

It's not going to happen for you.

You're not wired that way.

That much is clear.

 

None of us has the 'silver bullet' that's going to rid you of your previous indoctrinations.

Sorry.

We just don't, because there isn't one.

Atheists are the antithesis of indoctrination.

Atheists are free thinkers.

We don't like to be told what's real. We like to investigate things for ourselves, and decide for ourselves, what we adopt as true, or likely/unlikely to be true.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:what do

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

what do you guys think of prophecy and the implications it can have on a person I am still trying to shake off some of the prophecies I was given. Do you have a good way to discredit them?

 

The easiest way is to write them down and make a big note about the date of the prophecy.  If there are any dates or times, write them down.  If there are no dates or times, write that down.  Every few months take out your list of prophecies.  Have any come true?  Make a note of it on your list.  Have any dates or times passed and the prophecy still hasn't happened?  Make a note.  For the ones without a time or date, decide how long you think it is reasonable to wait for them to happen.  When that date comes and goes, make a note on your list.

Now - when everything on your list has been checked as coming true or not, date or time passed, then see - did anything come true?  I'll bet no.

The biggest problem is people only remember what happens.  Makes sense, you would go crazy trying to keep track of everything that doesn't happen.  So, someone says something very vague and years later, someone says oh, it came true!  How does anyone know?  Did anyone write it down?  Probably not.  Or the event that someone said fulfills the prophecy actually happened before the prophecy. 

Only if you write it down with the date(s) can you tell for certain sure if it ever comes true.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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cj wrote:ymalmsteen887

cj wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

what do you guys think of prophecy and the implications it can have on a person I am still trying to shake off some of the prophecies I was given. Do you have a good way to discredit them?

 

The easiest way is to write them down and make a big note about the date of the prophecy.  If there are any dates or times, write them down.  If there are no dates or times, write that down.  Every few months take out your list of prophecies.  Have any come true?  Make a note of it on your list.  Have any dates or times passed and the prophecy still hasn't happened?  Make a note.  For the ones without a time or date, decide how long you think it is reasonable to wait for them to happen.  When that date comes and goes, make a note on your list.

Now - when everything on your list has been checked as coming true or not, date or time passed, then see - did anything come true?  I'll bet no.

The biggest problem is people only remember what happens.  Makes sense, you would go crazy trying to keep track of everything that doesn't happen.  So, someone says something very vague and years later, someone says oh, it came true!  How does anyone know?  Did anyone write it down?  Probably not.  Or the event that someone said fulfills the prophecy actually happened before the prophecy. 

Only if you write it down with the date(s) can you tell for certain sure if it ever comes true.

 

I was told that I woould play the guitar for god which I already was at the time and that he had someone special for me which I know is incredibly vague. And also that I should quite listening to rock music which isnt a prophecy but a command. Also one time someone was talking to me and telling me to trust in god and I was an atheist at the time hardcore and the whole time she was talking to me I was giving god a chance to say things that he would only know and nothing happened, so I conclulded that it was her own feelings and motivations that led her to say those things. But recently I have remebered one for along time ago that I must be mistaken about my dad said that someone told him that I had magazines that I shouldnt be looking at but I never heard and I think he asctually said he was told to be a better father and knew they were there already and I have been reluctant to ask him in the case he might say it was the former confusing his own memories what do you think that would be a pretty bold thing to accuse someone of having naughty magazines?


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:I was

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I was told that I woould play the guitar for god which I already was at the time and that he had someone special for me which I know is incredibly vague. And also that I should quite listening to rock music which isnt a prophecy but a command. Also one time someone was talking to me and telling me to trust in god and I was an atheist at the time hardcore and the whole time she was talking to me I was giving god a chance to say things that he would only know and nothing happened, so I conclulded that it was her own feelings and motivations that led her to say those things. But recently I have remebered one for along time ago that I must be mistaken about my dad said that someone told him that I had magazines that I shouldnt be looking at but I never heard and I think he asctually said he was told to be a better father and knew they were there already and I have been reluctant to ask him in the case he might say it was the former confusing his own memories what do you think that would be a pretty bold thing to accuse someone of having naughty magazines?

 

I think it would be silly to be concerned about magazines - naughty or otherwise.  Why the heck should anyone care?

As I said, the only way to know for sure is to write them down immediately - not the next day.  I am not sure what I had for breakfast some days - months or years ago?  I wouldn't rely on your own memory or your dad's.  It just isn't likely that either of you would remember the conversation word for word.

 

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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cj wrote:ymalmsteen887

cj wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I was told that I woould play the guitar for god which I already was at the time and that he had someone special for me which I know is incredibly vague. And also that I should quite listening to rock music which isnt a prophecy but a command. Also one time someone was talking to me and telling me to trust in god and I was an atheist at the time hardcore and the whole time she was talking to me I was giving god a chance to say things that he would only know and nothing happened, so I conclulded that it was her own feelings and motivations that led her to say those things. But recently I have remebered one for along time ago that I must be mistaken about my dad said that someone told him that I had magazines that I shouldnt be looking at but I never heard and I think he asctually said he was told to be a better father and knew they were there already and I have been reluctant to ask him in the case he might say it was the former confusing his own memories what do you think that would be a pretty bold thing to accuse someone of having naughty magazines?

 

I think it would be silly to be concerned about magazines - naughty or otherwise.  Why the heck should anyone care?

As I said, the only way to know for sure is to write them down immediately - not the next day.  I am not sure what I had for breakfast some days - months or years ago?  I wouldn't rely on your own memory or your dad's.  It just isn't likely that either of you would remember the conversation word for word.

 

 

 

I was worried about someone getting word from the divine to tell me to stop looking at that stuff.


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What would you guys say if

What would you guys say if you told someone that people speaking gibberish, shaking violently and falling to the ground was all the evidence you need for god over the scientidic method and they responded with god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise.


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Troll...

Troll...


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ummmmm

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What would you guys say if you told someone that people speaking gibberish, shaking violently and falling to the ground was all the evidence you need for god over the scientidic method and they responded with god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise.

 

could some one decipher this for me, please?

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What would you guys say if you told someone that people speaking gibberish, shaking violently and falling to the ground was all the evidence you need for god over the scientidic method and they responded with god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise.

 

could some one decipher this for me, please?

 

 

 

If you were telling someone how ridiculous speaking in tounges and they said that god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise. What would you say to this person to rebuttal this as not being a good reason?


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I'd say Paul

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What would you guys say if you told someone that people speaking gibberish, shaking violently and falling to the ground was all the evidence you need for god over the scientidic method and they responded with god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise.

 

could some one decipher this for me, please?

 

If you were telling someone how ridiculous speaking in tounges and they said that god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise. What would you say to this person to rebuttal this as not being a good reason?

 

had been eating payote when he wrote that letter. If you ask me in Corinthians Paul is flat out suggesting he is Christ himself. It's a strange letter.

In any case, I don't see how speaking in tongues is a foolish thing to shun the wise. That's just a cop out this person uses to burrow out of an argument.

You could use this verse to justify absolutely anything and everything. The bible does not suggest speaking in tongues is foolish anyway, but lauds it many times.

Paul himself writes to his followers that he wants them all to speak in tongues.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What would you guys say if you told someone that people speaking gibberish, shaking violently and falling to the ground was all the evidence you need for god over the scientidic method and they responded with god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise.

 

could some one decipher this for me, please?

 

If you were telling someone how ridiculous speaking in tounges and they said that god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise. What would you say to this person to rebuttal this as not being a good reason?

 

had been eating payote when he wrote that letter. If you ask me in Corinthians Paul is flat out suggesting he is Christ himself. It's a strange letter.

In any case, I don't see how speaking in tongues is a foolish thing to shun the wise. That's just a cop out this person uses to burrow out of an argument.

You could use this verse to justify absolutely anything and everything. The bible does not suggest speaking in tongues is foolish anyway, but lauds it many times.

Paul himself writes to his followers that he wants them all to speak in tongues.

 

 

So basically I could reply with "so youre saying speaking in tounges is foolish?"


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:I was

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

I was worried about someone getting word from the divine to tell me to stop looking at that stuff.

 

I would think if there were a dog/god/s/dess, s/he/it/they would have more to worry about than some kid getting their rocks off all over a glossy magazine photo(s). 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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dog?

dog?


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Yep

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What would you guys say if you told someone that people speaking gibberish, shaking violently and falling to the ground was all the evidence you need for god over the scientidic method and they responded with god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise.

 

could some one decipher this for me, please?

 

If you were telling someone how ridiculous speaking in tounges and they said that god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise. What would you say to this person to rebuttal this as not being a good reason?

 

had been eating payote when he wrote that letter. If you ask me in Corinthians Paul is flat out suggesting he is Christ himself. It's a strange letter.

In any case, I don't see how speaking in tongues is a foolish thing to shun the wise. That's just a cop out this person uses to burrow out of an argument.

You could use this verse to justify absolutely anything and everything. The bible does not suggest speaking in tongues is foolish anyway, but lauds it many times.

Paul himself writes to his followers that he wants them all to speak in tongues.

 

 

So basically I could reply with "so youre saying speaking in tounges is foolish?"

 

Paul insists he wants all the corinthians jabbering like idiots. Of course he thought they were magically speaking swahili or something (or wanted others to think so). But the bible makes no bones about tongue speaking being sent from god. It's a miraculous event, allegedly, not an exercise in boring the pants of everyone in the vicinity with half a brain.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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ymalmsteen887

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

dog?

 

The dyslectic agnostic didn't know if there was a dog.  It's a joke.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

What would you guys say if you told someone that people speaking gibberish, shaking violently and falling to the ground was all the evidence you need for god over the scientidic method and they responded with god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise.

 

could some one decipher this for me, please?

 

If you were telling someone how ridiculous speaking in tounges and they said that god uses the foolish things of the world to shun the wise. What would you say to this person to rebuttal this as not being a good reason?

 

had been eating payote when he wrote that letter. If you ask me in Corinthians Paul is flat out suggesting he is Christ himself. It's a strange letter.

In any case, I don't see how speaking in tongues is a foolish thing to shun the wise. That's just a cop out this person uses to burrow out of an argument.

You could use this verse to justify absolutely anything and everything. The bible does not suggest speaking in tongues is foolish anyway, but lauds it many times.

Paul himself writes to his followers that he wants them all to speak in tongues.

 

 

So basically I could reply with "so youre saying speaking in tounges is foolish?"

 

Paul insists he wants all the corinthians jabbering like idiots. Of course he thought they were magically speaking swahili or something (or wanted others to think so). But the bible makes no bones about tongue speaking being sent from god. It's a miraculous event, allegedly, not an exercise in boring the pants of everyone in the vicinity with half a brain.

 

 

Would you be afraid to go up against tounge speaking prohecying  lay hands on the sick kind of people and tell when that their beliefs are non sense? Cause I always think the will try to lay hands on me thinking I have a demon in me. I dont know what I would do


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Tongue talking

Well, I see a lot of blind speculation, a little scholarship and a dash of someone scared of the boogy-man here but I think I may be able to shed some light on this topic.  I have very intimate experience with it, you see.  For the first twenty years of my life I was one of these Apostolic Pentecostals (of the Oneness variety, for those interested).  I spoke in tongues at the tender age of eight and, though at thirty five I am more than ten long years removed from any form of theism/deism/etc, I can still conjure glossolalia up at a moments notice, though there are environmental factors that impact the "feelings" associated with it.

 

First and formost, this phenomenon cannot be understood in a vacuum.  As I will get into, glossolalia is effectively the result of an altered state of conciousness, a heightened and often frenzied emotional disconnect with anything but the experience.  You do not enter into such a state without the help of group psychosis (this can be a real, physical group or even a percieved but imaginary one). 

 

The main component with group psychosis that effects this phenomenon is the supression of inhibitions.  This is pretty important in relation to the event because humans, as an organism heavily dependant on vocal communication for our societal stability, have a fairly robust inhibition against speaking gibberish.  Under normal circumstances, not being understood by those around us would cause frustration and an effort to clarify our message.  Just as a mob may diminish the natural inhibition towards random violence (group psychosis and mob actions are a whole nuther conversation that deserves much more than will be discussed here), a group of likeminded believers, a delusion of a "cloud of witnesses" or entering the presence of a supreme deity would supress such inhibitions to good verbal communication for a number of reasons.

Anyone who has attended one of these services understands exactly where I am going with that.  I like to say we weren't the church handling the snakes, but we had a solid respect for the ones that did!  The services have a very mystical bent with loud, rather boisterous music and impassioned rhetoric from a minister.  Put together an environment like that and people who want to "let go and let God have his way" will line up to do so.  This experience is the polar opposite of meditation in that is is completely non-introspective.  There is diminished situational awareness as the worshipper steadily works into a very trance-like state, hyper-emotive and stupendously sensitive to auto-suggestion and the like.  In such a state the phenomenon of tongues is born. 

 

From my experience and hindsight, it is basically a short circuit of the speech mechanism.  Much the same way alcohol or drugs causes a loss of control of the mechanics of speech, this hyper-emotive state seems to effect the output side of the cognitive machine (it is a metaphor, let's not get into the flaws of Cartesian brain theories!) As humans we have an innate desire to vocalize but when the frontal lobes are shut down and cognition and higher function supressed, the results are the equivalant of dumping a bag of Lego's.  Instead of building a car or a plane, they are just punched together at random and generate a string of phonics that have a ring of "wordiness". 

 

Interestingly, it becomes habit and can be called up at random, particularly when one finds themself in a highly charged atmosphere.  I remember one of the chinks in the armor appeared when I was a senior in high school and went to a pep rally.  Fifteen hundred kids cheering and chanting with one voice and I found myself having to actively not speak in tongues!  Talk about cognitive disconnect!  Was God really a big high school footbal fan?

To further confound the conversation, there is the nature vs. nurture aspect.  Many people are unable to reach the emotional reptile inside and simply improvise.  They make shit up.  It is quite understandable considering this phenomenon is a part of the in-group identity (seldom spoken but vigorously implied) and it gives one access to many very tangible benifits only accessed by the inner circle.

 

Hope that sheds a bit of light on it.  If you have questions I would be happy to discuss it further.

 

...oh, and as for the guy who is worried about being prophesied over, that's easy.  When the preacher comes over to lay the hands, keep your eyes open and laugh at him.  Demonstrate by your actions that his silly sharade is on par with the emperor's new clothes. 

 

Bradthebard

Wisdom lies not in thinking outside the box. Wisdom is the realization that there is no box. Truth and reality extend as far as the eye can see and infinitely further.


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:Would

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Would you be afraid to go up against tounge speaking prohecying  lay hands on the sick kind of people and tell when that their beliefs are non sense? Cause I always think the will try to lay hands on me thinking I have a demon in me. I dont know what I would do

 

Laugh.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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BardlishtheMagnifico

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

Well, I see a lot of blind speculation, a little scholarship and a dash of someone scared of the boogy-man here but I think I may be able to shed some light on this topic.  I have very intimate experience with it, you see.  For the first twenty years of my life I was one of these Apostolic Pentecostals (of the Oneness variety, for those interested).  I spoke in tongues at the tender age of eight and, though at thirty five I am more than ten long years removed from any form of theism/deism/etc, I can still conjure glossolalia up at a moments notice, though there are environmental factors that impact the "feelings" associated with it.

 

First and formost, this phenomenon cannot be understood in a vacuum.  As I will get into, glossolalia is effectively the result of an altered state of conciousness, a heightened and often frenzied emotional disconnect with anything but the experience.  You do not enter into such a state without the help of group psychosis (this can be a real, physical group or even a percieved but imaginary one). 

 

The main component with group psychosis that effects this phenomenon is the supression of inhibitions.  This is pretty important in relation to the event because humans, as an organism heavily dependant on vocal communication for our societal stability, have a fairly robust inhibition against speaking gibberish.  Under normal circumstances, not being understood by those around us would cause frustration and an effort to clarify our message.  Just as a mob may diminish the natural inhibition towards random violence (group psychosis and mob actions are a whole nuther conversation that deserves much more than will be discussed here), a group of likeminded believers, a delusion of a "cloud of witnesses" or entering the presence of a supreme deity would supress such inhibitions to good verbal communication for a number of reasons.

Anyone who has attended one of these services understands exactly where I am going with that.  I like to say we weren't the church handling the snakes, but we had a solid respect for the ones that did!  The services have a very mystical bent with loud, rather boisterous music and impassioned rhetoric from a minister.  Put together an environment like that and people who want to "let go and let God have his way" will line up to do so.  This experience is the polar opposite of meditation in that is is completely non-introspective.  There is diminished situational awareness as the worshipper steadily works into a very trance-like state, hyper-emotive and stupendously sensitive to auto-suggestion and the like.  In such a state the phenomenon of tongues is born. 

 

From my experience and hindsight, it is basically a short circuit of the speech mechanism.  Much the same way alcohol or drugs causes a loss of control of the mechanics of speech, this hyper-emotive state seems to effect the output side of the cognitive machine (it is a metaphor, let's not get into the flaws of Cartesian brain theories!) As humans we have an innate desire to vocalize but when the frontal lobes are shut down and cognition and higher function supressed, the results are the equivalant of dumping a bag of Lego's.  Instead of building a car or a plane, they are just punched together at random and generate a string of phonics that have a ring of "wordiness". 

 

Interestingly, it becomes habit and can be called up at random, particularly when one finds themself in a highly charged atmosphere.  I remember one of the chinks in the armor appeared when I was a senior in high school and went to a pep rally.  Fifteen hundred kids cheering and chanting with one voice and I found myself having to actively not speak in tongues!  Talk about cognitive disconnect!  Was God really a big high school footbal fan?

To further confound the conversation, there is the nature vs. nurture aspect.  Many people are unable to reach the emotional reptile inside and simply improvise.  They make shit up.  It is quite understandable considering this phenomenon is a part of the in-group identity (seldom spoken but vigorously implied) and it gives one access to many very tangible benifits only accessed by the inner circle.

 

Hope that sheds a bit of light on it.  If you have questions I would be happy to discuss it further.

 

...oh, and as for the guy who is worried about being prophesied over, that's easy.  When the preacher comes over to lay the hands, keep your eyes open and laugh at him.  Demonstrate by your actions that his silly sharade is on par with the emperor's new clothes. 

 

Bradthebard

Thats interesting but how come my family members are when they start praying start speaking in tounges immediatley Is it because they are used to it and have it memorized cause if it is some kind of drunk state then for my grandma who does it immediatley upon praying then wouldnt she be conciously doing her self at that point or do you get better at entering this state?


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BardlishtheMagnifico

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

Well, I see a lot of blind speculation, a little scholarship and a dash of someone scared of the boogy-man here but I think I may be able to shed some light on this topic.  I have very intimate experience with it, you see.  For the first twenty years of my life I was one of these Apostolic Pentecostals (of the Oneness variety, for those interested).  I spoke in tongues at the tender age of eight and, though at thirty five I am more than ten long years removed from any form of theism/deism/etc, I can still conjure glossolalia up at a moments notice, though there are environmental factors that impact the "feelings" associated with it.

 

First and formost, this phenomenon cannot be understood in a vacuum.  As I will get into, glossolalia is effectively the result of an altered state of conciousness, a heightened and often frenzied emotional disconnect with anything but the experience.  You do not enter into such a state without the help of group psychosis (this can be a real, physical group or even a percieved but imaginary one). 

 

The main component with group psychosis that effects this phenomenon is the supression of inhibitions.  This is pretty important in relation to the event because humans, as an organism heavily dependant on vocal communication for our societal stability, have a fairly robust inhibition against speaking gibberish.  Under normal circumstances, not being understood by those around us would cause frustration and an effort to clarify our message.  Just as a mob may diminish the natural inhibition towards random violence (group psychosis and mob actions are a whole nuther conversation that deserves much more than will be discussed here), a group of likeminded believers, a delusion of a "cloud of witnesses" or entering the presence of a supreme deity would supress such inhibitions to good verbal communication for a number of reasons.

Anyone who has attended one of these services understands exactly where I am going with that.  I like to say we weren't the church handling the snakes, but we had a solid respect for the ones that did!  The services have a very mystical bent with loud, rather boisterous music and impassioned rhetoric from a minister.  Put together an environment like that and people who want to "let go and let God have his way" will line up to do so.  This experience is the polar opposite of meditation in that is is completely non-introspective.  There is diminished situational awareness as the worshipper steadily works into a very trance-like state, hyper-emotive and stupendously sensitive to auto-suggestion and the like.  In such a state the phenomenon of tongues is born. 

 

From my experience and hindsight, it is basically a short circuit of the speech mechanism.  Much the same way alcohol or drugs causes a loss of control of the mechanics of speech, this hyper-emotive state seems to effect the output side of the cognitive machine (it is a metaphor, let's not get into the flaws of Cartesian brain theories!) As humans we have an innate desire to vocalize but when the frontal lobes are shut down and cognition and higher function supressed, the results are the equivalant of dumping a bag of Lego's.  Instead of building a car or a plane, they are just punched together at random and generate a string of phonics that have a ring of "wordiness". 

 

Interestingly, it becomes habit and can be called up at random, particularly when one finds themself in a highly charged atmosphere.  I remember one of the chinks in the armor appeared when I was a senior in high school and went to a pep rally.  Fifteen hundred kids cheering and chanting with one voice and I found myself having to actively not speak in tongues!  Talk about cognitive disconnect!  Was God really a big high school footbal fan?

To further confound the conversation, there is the nature vs. nurture aspect.  Many people are unable to reach the emotional reptile inside and simply improvise.  They make shit up.  It is quite understandable considering this phenomenon is a part of the in-group identity (seldom spoken but vigorously implied) and it gives one access to many very tangible benifits only accessed by the inner circle.

 

Hope that sheds a bit of light on it.  If you have questions I would be happy to discuss it further.

 

...oh, and as for the guy who is worried about being prophesied over, that's easy.  When the preacher comes over to lay the hands, keep your eyes open and laugh at him.  Demonstrate by your actions that his silly sharade is on par with the emperor's new clothes. 

 

Bradthebard

Thats interesting but how come my family members  when they start praying start speaking in tounges immediatley Is it because they are used to it and have it memorized cause if it is some kind of drunk state then for my grandma who does it immediatley upon praying wouldnt she be conciously doing it her self at that point or do you get better at entering this state?


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BardlishtheMagnifico

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

From my experience and hindsight, it is basically a short circuit of the speech mechanism.  Much the same way alcohol or drugs causes a loss of control of the mechanics of speech, this hyper-emotive state seems to effect the output side of the cognitive machine (it is a metaphor, let's not get into the flaws of Cartesian brain theories!) As humans we have an innate desire to vocalize but when the frontal lobes are shut down and cognition and higher function supressed, the results are the equivalant of dumping a bag of Lego's.  Instead of building a car or a plane, they are just punched together at random and generate a string of phonics that have a ring of "wordiness". 

 

I am not wishing to contradict your experience.  It is just that for me, it was always play-acting.  While I gibbered away, a part of my brain was aware and actively pushing my outer me into the "proper" physical actions to go along with their nonsense.

Looking at the eyes of the old lady who was the primary supporter of that church, she was play-acting too.

I agree, there are probably congregations that have people who are more into total release and total immersion in the experience.  It was a very small congregation that I belonged to, and we didn't have "the devil's music" to get all wound up over.

And yes, I do think how you are raised is a part of it.  My family did not attend this church - they didn't attend any church being of the "believing in god but not religion" variety.  For which I am very grateful as I was never brain washed to the extent some people on this forum were.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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cj

cj wrote:

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

From my experience and hindsight, it is basically a short circuit of the speech mechanism.  Much the same way alcohol or drugs causes a loss of control of the mechanics of speech, this hyper-emotive state seems to effect the output side of the cognitive machine (it is a metaphor, let's not get into the flaws of Cartesian brain theories!) As humans we have an innate desire to vocalize but when the frontal lobes are shut down and cognition and higher function supressed, the results are the equivalant of dumping a bag of Lego's.  Instead of building a car or a plane, they are just punched together at random and generate a string of phonics that have a ring of "wordiness". 

 

I am not wishing to contradict your experience.  It is just that for me, it was always play-acting.  While I gibbered away, a part of my brain was aware and actively pushing my outer me into the "proper" physical actions to go along with their nonsense.

Looking at the eyes of the old lady who was the primary supporter of that church, she was play-acting too.

I agree, there are probably congregations that have people who are more into total release and total immersion in the experience.  It was a very small congregation that I belonged to, and we didn't have "the devil's music" to get all wound up over.

And yes, I do think how you are raised is a part of it.  My family did not attend this church - they didn't attend any church being of the "believing in god but not religion" variety.  For which I am very grateful as I was never brain washed to the extent some people on this forum were.

 

I can most certainly assure you these people are under some kind of altered state or extreme good feelings. The people who go to the chruch have nothing to gain from pretending.


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ymalmsteen887 wrote:Thats

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

Thats interesting but how come my family members  when they start praying start speaking in tounges immediatley Is it because they are used to it and have it memorized cause if it is some kind of drunk state then for my grandma who does it immediatley upon praying wouldnt she be conciously doing it her self at that point or do you get better at entering this state?

 

It is a learned behavior.  Once you get used to doing it it is second nature. Rolls off like falling off a log.

 

As to the play-acting, there certainly is some of that.  At risk of sounding "True Scottsmanish", that isn't really glossolalia proper.  It is peer pressure. 

 

Glossolalia is induced by an altered state of conciousness initially, though, as pointed out, it becomes easy as falling off a log! 

Wisdom lies not in thinking outside the box. Wisdom is the realization that there is no box. Truth and reality extend as far as the eye can see and infinitely further.


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BardlishtheMagnifico

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

It is a learned behavior.  Once you get used to doing it it is second nature. Rolls off like falling off a log.

 

As to the play-acting, there certainly is some of that.  At risk of sounding "True Scottsmanish", that isn't really glossolalia proper.  It is peer pressure. 

 

Glossolalia is induced by an altered state of conciousness initially, though, as pointed out, it becomes easy as falling off a log! 

I see what you are saying, but, to begin with there has to be peer pressure involved in order to begin the learning process.  What CJ has experienced is more in line with what I would find reasonable.  Moving forward conditioning sets in.  CJ sounds as though she was in the 'learning' stages.  Given a year or so I'm sure the experience becomes 'authentic' , much like yours.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Quote:I see what you are

Quote:

I see what you are saying, but, to begin with there has to be peer pressure involved in order to begin the learning process.  What CJ has experienced is more in line with what I would find reasonable.  Moving forward conditioning sets in.  CJ sounds as though she was in the 'learning' stages.  Given a year or so I'm sure the experience becomes 'authentic' , much like yours.

Yea, I suppose that is the rub.  You can't really ever seperate the components out.  That said, there is a difference between the play-acting and the altered state of conciousness.  I think there may be some people more likely to easily slip into these altered mental states than others.  The fact that I was raised in it and firmly believed in its authenticity helped a good deal too!  I know I did not feel like I was acting at all when I was doing it.  It was an utterance from the depths of my soul (I thought) and was absolutely authentic to me at the time.  It was as real as any other hallucination is, which, to the person seeing it, is pretty damn real!

 

I think the "true believers" like that are far more likely to have been indoctrinated from a very young age by fervently practicing parents or gaurdians. 

Wisdom lies not in thinking outside the box. Wisdom is the realization that there is no box. Truth and reality extend as far as the eye can see and infinitely further.


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BardlishtheMagnifico

BardlishtheMagnifico wrote:

Quote:

I see what you are saying, but, to begin with there has to be peer pressure involved in order to begin the learning process.  What CJ has experienced is more in line with what I would find reasonable.  Moving forward conditioning sets in.  CJ sounds as though she was in the 'learning' stages.  Given a year or so I'm sure the experience becomes 'authentic' , much like yours.

Yea, I suppose that is the rub.  You can't really ever seperate the components out.  That said, there is a difference between the play-acting and the altered state of conciousness.  I think there may be some people more likely to easily slip into these altered mental states than others.  The fact that I was raised in it and firmly believed in its authenticity helped a good deal too!  I know I did not feel like I was acting at all when I was doing it.  It was an utterance from the depths of my soul (I thought) and was absolutely authentic to me at the time.  It was as real as any other hallucination is, which, to the person seeing it, is pretty damn real!

 

I think the "true believers" like that are far more likely to have been indoctrinated from a very young age by fervently practicing parents or gaurdians. 

My grandma described to me that she wanted it for the longest time but never did and one time at chruch after events she described that I want say here, a friend of hers came up to her and said god is ready for you or something along those lines and as soon as she said that it came upon her.

Its possible that at her age she is mistaken of her memories and she didnt tell me if she had been through multiple experinces before that or not.

Another thing and 2 people are witnesses to this or this one guy wanted to stop them from doing all the speaking in tounges and when he came in and was about to break them apart a preacher laid hands on him and he immediatley started speaking in tounges and later he was testifing and saying that he used to call them crazy people and no I am one of them. How do you explain this since this was way before I was born I want know one way or the other but is it possible that my grandma witnessed a fraud taking place.

Also when she told me about it it was probably a year later someone else at the chruch mentioned it and so I dont think this would be a false memory situation.

This is why it is so hard for me to laugh at them cause there is so much to anazlye and try to debunk.


BardlishtheMagnifico
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ymalmsteen887 wrote:[My

ymalmsteen887 wrote:

[My grandma described to me that she wanted it for the longest time but never did and one time at chruch after events she described that I want say here, a friend of hers came up to her and said god is ready for you or something along those lines and as soon as she said that it came upon her.

Its possible that at her age she is mistaken of her memories and she didnt tell me if she had been through multiple experinces before that or not.

I would certainly not suggest she is mistaken about her perception of the events.  She wanted it really bad and the words of her freind could easily have generated the wellspring of emotion needed.  She may have also just spurted out some nonsense and the smoothing trowel of time has smoothed over the less desirable parts of the memory!

Quote:

Another thing and 2 people are witnesses to this or this one guy wanted to stop them from doing all the speaking in tounges and when he came in and was about to break them apart a preacher laid hands on him and he immediatley started speaking in tounges and later he was testifing and saying that he used to call them crazy people and no I am one of them. How do you explain this since this was way before I was born I want know one way or the other but is it possible that my grandma witnessed a fraud taking place.

Also when she told me about it it was probably a year later someone else at the chruch mentioned it and so I dont think this would be a false memory situation.

 

Seems an odd way to bestow a gift, eh?

I give little credence to such stories, and I have heard my share of them.  Tales of derring-do from the past that serve to offer a rather vague shoring up of the story-line are almost always embellished beyond belief.  Multiple people telling the same story means little.  Look at the gospels.   These rather predictable and mystical stories are poor evidence indeed for anything at all.  They are most likely the fond but flawed memories of a group of people who want to shore up their faith.  I remember hearing one about the spirit moving on a saxaphone and it playing itself...

Quote:

This is why it is so hard for me to laugh at them cause there is so much to anazlye and try to debunk.

There really isn't but I completely understand your hesitation.  It is unimaginally traumatic to stand up and speak against beliefs your family and freinds hold.  The best advise I can give isn't my advise at all.  It is the words of Ghandi, "Speak your mind.  ...Even if your voice shakes."

Unfortunately you will probably never debunk them.  Their faith is not based on evidence or rationality.  The best you can do is to stand up, ask the questions and be bold about it.  It will get easier with time and you will become the inspiration for another rational thinker who is just as afraid as you are.

Wisdom lies not in thinking outside the box. Wisdom is the realization that there is no box. Truth and reality extend as far as the eye can see and infinitely further.


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Quote:From my experience and

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From my experience and hindsight, it is basically a short circuit of the speech mechanism.  Much the same way alcohol or drugs causes a loss of control of the mechanics of speech, this hyper-emotive state seems to effect the output side of the cognitive machine (it is a metaphor, let's not get into the flaws of Cartesian brain theories!) As humans we have an innate desire to vocalize but when the frontal lobes are shut down and cognition and higher function supressed, the results are the equivalant of dumping a bag of Lego's.  Instead of building a car or a plane, they are just punched together at random and generate a string of phonics that have a ring of "wordiness".

 

 

Well, fMRI stuff seems to indicate a trance state where conscious control decreases because you see decreased frontal lobe activity, but I'm not sure it shows language centers are actually depressed somehow...especially when someone as young as 8 enters that state.  If an 8 year old is capable of voluntarily bypassing the speech areas of the brain, I'd think you'd see such behavior regularly, even outside of religious circles.  It just seems more likely it is a combination of a highly emotional state, social pressure and mimicry rather than real impaired ability.

 

Now I'm wondering how you would test for that.  In the fMRI study abstracts I don't see a control group...it would be interesting to know what happens when random people are asked to 'babble' under varying circumstance and compare the results to the religious folks.  And see what happens to the language bits in general, since those are somewhat understood.

Maybe they've already done this though, I'm not reading the full papers.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:Now I'm

mellestad wrote:

Now I'm wondering how you would test for that.  In the fMRI study abstracts I don't see a control group...it would be interesting to know what happens when random people are asked to 'babble' under varying circumstance and compare the results to the religious folks.

They can come to my office, there are a lot of people that 'babble' on regular basis.  Actually the incoherent verbal diarrhea that comes out is indiscernible from speaking in tongues.  I think we would make a perfect control group.  Smiling

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Thanks for enlightening us

 

Bard - that's very interesting. A young brother of mine went to a church like this for 7-8 years and it was just as you describe - loud rock music, a shouting minister, the audience encouraged to participate, the speaking of tongues, (the gathering of money).

When you talk about the pre frontal disconnect and the phonetic lego I clearly see I've entered this state in more than one job interview.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


BardlishtheMagnifico
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mellestad wrote: Well, fMRI

mellestad wrote:

 

Well, fMRI stuff seems to indicate a trance state where conscious control decreases because you see decreased frontal lobe activity, but I'm not sure it shows language centers are actually depressed somehow...especially when someone as young as 8 enters that state.  If an 8 year old is capable of voluntarily bypassing the speech areas of the brain, I'd think you'd see such behavior regularly, even outside of religious circles.  It just seems more likely it is a combination of a highly emotional state, social pressure and mimicry rather than real impaired ability.

On his own no, but put that eight year old in the middle of an ecstatic ritual, surrounded by emotionally charged compadres all hooting and hollering and, though he migh not exactly voluntarily slip into it, he could easily jump into jibberish as a by product of the exitement around him.  I spoke with tongues at nine and that was pretty much the case.  The path to get there gets mapped pretty quick but being surrounded by hyper-worshippers yelling and praying and getting their Jesus freak on impacts a young mind.   'S a wonder I am not nutty as a squirrel turd...

Quote:

 

Now I'm wondering how you would test for that.  In the fMRI study abstracts I don't see a control group...it would be interesting to know what happens when random people are asked to 'babble' under varying circumstance and compare the results to the religious folks.  And see what happens to the language bits in general, since those are somewhat understood.

Maybe they've already done this though, I'm not reading the full papers.

 

I'm not entirely sure if it was the same study but I did read a similar one.  Couple points I noticed.

 

-I suspect it would be very difficut to replicate the environment of one of the ecstatic rituals in a controlled, clinical environment.  As such, I am not sure the fMRI would give a truly accurate picture of what happens, though I have little more than my own perceptions and memory as support for that opinion.  The glossolalia can be called up out of what I think is mere habit but it is a different animal than the kind that is brought on by the altered state generated by these rituals (and they are indeed rituals). 

-In retrospect, it doesn't seem to me that it is generated from the language centers of the brain (similar to singing).  I think much study could go into this subject if anyone thought it actually worthwhile, which I really don't! I read another study while studying in college in accoustics and audio engineering about the physiological effects of loud, driving music, a very important ingredient in many of these rituals.  It seems the effects of extended exposure to music over about 90-95 db or so has an effect very similar to cocaine!  One more factor that plays into the mix it seems.

Wisdom lies not in thinking outside the box. Wisdom is the realization that there is no box. Truth and reality extend as far as the eye can see and infinitely further.