Satanic Christianity

Zeeboe
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Satanic Christianity

FYI: I may come across as a Christian in this post, but I am still an agnostic. I enjoy having deep discussions about religion, human nature, and history, and I am just sharing my thoughts//opinions/questions, and hope to get feedback.

 

I use to be what I thought was a Christian, then I became an Agnostic-Atheist. Long story. However, I have been doing some deep thinking lately about God, and have an interest into becoming perhaps a real mature Christian for the first time.....maybe. But it's a big choice, and I can't rush into it. Now what I am about to ramble about did not just happen overnight. It was a long process, and this rant will be long, and will be followed up with more posts.

In my opinion, for twenty-four years, I was a believer of what Dinesh D'Souza calls "Crayon Christianity". i.e....I believed in God because I was taught to believe, I was in it for the trip to Heaven, I highly underestimated the powers of Satan, and because I assumed you got whatever you wanted and because I never got what I wanted, and because I suffered, was not born the most handsome man ever, have also been around some pretty nasty people too many time's in my life, never was given protection from God from those people, was a total coward, and finally, I was born with learning disabilities. I am almost thirty-years old, and I can honestly type that it has ruined my life. Any and all issue I have/had can be traced back to these problems in my brain. I have suffered so much as a result of it that I have come close to killing myself, and I fear one day I will. But I digress.

I finally stopped believing in God because I could not understand why he made me this way, and why he has left me to the wolves so many times when I tried so hard to be a good Christian. For the most part of my life, people have patronized me or have been rude and sometimes cruel to me whenever they are not ignoring me. I've compared myself to Job for years before I quit. It started as a hate for God when I was a kid and teenager, but then soon lead to no belief at all in my mid-twenties and has been like this for several years now.

On the other end - I think there are literally millions of people who are the same way in a sense. They assume their good gifts come from God, but....if God is real....

 

1. I don't think God has a plan for everyone.

 

2. I don't think God knows everything.

 

3. I don't think God is all-loving, and is fully capable of punishing people, as well as rewarding human beings, and has done both.

 

4. I don't think for the most part God interferes much in life, and I don't think there is any set plan.

 

5. Christians often say life here doesn't matter, and that it's only about Heaven. I disagree. I think that this life here on earth DOES matter.

 

6. I don't think overpraying is a good thing. Pray once for your request, then leave it alone.

 

7. I don't think going to church is always a good thing, especially if it is filled with false converts who will only lead you to sinning.

 

I think that above is all apart of "crayon Christianity", and mostly came from the mouths of humans. Not God or the bible.

Most of the Christians I have been around through out my life are/were not real Christians, and would be offended that I would say they are not, but according to the bible, they are false converts and God will one day say to them: "Depart from me. I never knew you."

I know they are/were not true Christians because they lie, they steal, they get into fist fights, they get drunk, they do drugs, they watch porno, they enjoy violence, they pressued me into sinning when I was a Christian, they lust, they take the Lord's name in vain, and more, and they are open about it, and they don't care.

Why? They blindly assume God will forgive them because Christ died on a cross, and therefore, they don't have to follow the rules anymore. To me, that's like a serial killer killing, but then telling God he is sorry, but then goes out and kills again next week, still expecting to get into Heaven. To God, ALL sins are equally the same according to the bible and He sees murder the same way he sees lusting. The reason why you and I don't see murder and lying as the same thing is because according to the bible, you and I are sinners. God is so perfect, the sins are all the same to him.

A true Christian would have God within their soul, and thus would have no desire to sin, and would see lusting or lying or physically hurting or mistreating another human the same way they see murdering someone. They'd see it as so horrible, they wouldn't even want to think about it and would be disgusted by it. To me, all the rules in the bible are there for a reason, and I get most of them, and living that lifestyle can lead to a happy life. And to me, that is being a Christian. And you follow the Lord not so you can go to Heaven or to get whatever you want, but because following His rules can be Heaven within itself.

If the Devil is indeed real, he is so good at what he does, it is beyond scary because he tricks millions of people into sinning daily, and still makes them think they are Christians who will go to Heaven, and then in the process, is able to turn people like me off from Christianity. Satan is indeed a master of deception. Being around these false converts is what lead to me leaving Christianity because I believed that is how Christianity was, but in all reality, I was not hating God, I was hating a wolf in sheep's closing. i.e. I was hating Satan pretending to be God.

Upon more thinking, I qu...estion if "Crayon Christianity" is the right title. I think "Satanic Christianity" would be the more ideal title since Satan IS able to trick millions of Christians into sinning daily, but still convince them they are Christians. In all honestly, I wouldn't want to follow a God that lets repeated liars into Heaven anymore then I'd want to worship a God that lets serial killers into Heaven.

Millions of non-Christians hate/mock Christianity, but they are hating The Devil's counterfeit Christianity.

 

......That is assuming any of it is real of course. Just because millions of people do not understand the bible still doesn't mean it's true. But maybe it is?

There are tons of smart people from both sides on here, and I'd love to get your responses to this post.

 


butterbattle
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You are probably not going

You are probably not going to like what I'm going to write here.

Many if not most of the points of "Crayon Christianity" you mentioned can be argued to have a Biblical basis. According to the Bible, God wants you to pray a lot. God does have a plan for everyone. Jesus does use hell as a motive to not sin. And you will be forgiven for whatever sins you have committed as soon as you repent with Christ, as long as you are sincere. Overall, the Bible contains many terrible, terrible things, moral concepts and ideas that are absolutely insane by today's standards. Surely, you agree with this?

I think you still have some strong emotional feelings left for Christianity. However, you've recognized that your religion doesn't make sense, so you are now trying to reconcile the two. In the process, you have projected your subjective feelings about what is good, about what a religion should be, onto Christianity. It is okay to want something; heck, I still wish there was a nice God. You can even pray if that makes you comfortable. But, I do not think you want to let your feelings cloud your thinking. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Ktulu
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 I don't think you were

 I don't think you were ever really an atheist.  Atheists don't hate God any more or less then they hate the toothfairy, we hate the things that people do in the name of God.  

I can only speak for myself, but I believe that someone that has taken the time and has done the research, and then concluded they were atheist.  That one person can only be persuaded back by actual divine evidence.  What you're describing yourself to have been was confused.  Saying God doesn't exist doesn't make one an atheist, rationalizing that God doesn't exist does.

So I don't think  you have anything to worry about, you were never really an atheist Smiling

Hopefully your god makes you happy.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


butterbattle
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Lol, I think you need a

Lol, I think you need a </sarcasm>?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Zeeboe wrote:  A true

Zeeboe wrote:

 

 

A true Christian would have God within their soul, and thus would have no desire to sin, and would see lusting or lying or physically hurting or mistreating another human the same way they see murdering someone. They'd see it as so horrible, they wouldn't even want to think about it and would be disgusted by it. To me, all the rules in the bible are there for a reason, and I get most of them, and living that lifestyle can lead to a happy life. And to me, that is being a Christian. And you follow the Lord not so you can go to Heaven or to get whatever you want, but because following His rules can be Heaven within itself.


 

......That is assuming any of it is real of course. Just because millions of people do not understand the bible still doesn't mean it's true. But maybe it is?

There are tons of smart people from both sides on here, and I'd love to get your responses to this post.

 

Assuming any of it is real, would therein be the problem.

You see, you mentioned things that you attributed to being "TRUE" Christian.

Yet, you and I both know that there are thousands of different sects of Christianity that all proclaim to teach the "TRUE" path.

See what I mean ? What guarantee or hard evidence could you have to produce that this newfound version of yours would be the actual true teaching ?

If you are relying on the bible for that source of truth, then we are back to square one that all differing and warring sects of religion use the same bible  to justify their own belief systems over other religions. What guarantee would you have that your version would be correct over the crayon christianity in which you address ?

How have you arrived at your personal ideas of god not being all knowing, not all powerful and not all interested in everyday human affairs ?

How would you know what constitutes overpraying and praying correctly as you mentioned ?

These would be your personal interpretations of what god would be like, based on your own personal ideas of what god SHOULD be like by your own observations.

But there is no evidence for any sort of creator. There is no evidence that if a creator existed, he would have any concern about such a thing as a "sin". Sin being a subjective concept that was seemingly thought up by man.

When I struggled with my own god beliefs, I realized that all of my perceptions of what god would want or should act like, were based on what I was taught and my own personal feelings. Meaning that these interpretations were coming from my own mind.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


cj
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Zeeboe wrote:1. I don't

Zeeboe wrote:

1. I don't think God has a plan for everyone.

 

2. I don't think God knows everything.

 

3. I don't think God is all-loving, and is fully capable of punishing people, as well as rewarding human beings, and has done both.

 

4. I don't think for the most part God interferes much in life, and I don't think there is any set plan.

 

5. Christians often say life here doesn't matter, and that it's only about Heaven. I disagree. I think that this life here on earth DOES matter.

 

6. I don't think overpraying is a good thing. Pray once for your request, then leave it alone.

 

7. I don't think going to church is always a good thing, especially if it is filled with false converts who will only lead you to sinning.

 

My question is, if you believe all of this to be true, why the hell bother?  Really - the list you have there,  god/s/dess doesn't do a thing for you or anyone else.  If you need a hug, don't bother with invisible friends, go find someone to hug.  People in nursing homes are desperate for hugs - they don't care what your beliefs are if you will just take the time to pay a little attention to them.

Or if you feel the lack of something to do, go volunteer.  There are lots of people who will be glad to have your assistance.  Join a book club.  Take some community college classes - tai chi or canoeing or something, anything.

Sheeze - my youngest son is learning disabled - and it takes him hours to string together two sentences that make sense only to him.  You just wrote paragraphs of a very coherent essay.  What are you complaining about?

IF god/s/dess exist, s/he/it/they obviously don't give a rat's ass about you, me or anyone else around here.  Why waste any time on them if they can't be bothered with you?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Zeeboe
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It is true. I am not an

It is true. I am not an Atheist. I'm an Agnostic-Atheist. Meaning, I don't know if there is a God, but right now, I have no belief in one. I want to be fair, and not just preach the atheist side in me where I'm just bad-mouthing Christianity. I wish to study both sides so I can learn more about life and human nature. Sometimes my comments may come across like I am an atheist, other times they will come across like I am a Christian. Now in regards of the last question - Ya know, there's billions of people out there. How could God care about each one? How could he hear all their prayers? That is my point - Maybe God is as human as you and I, and just like there's nothing you and I can do about some crime happening over in Europe, God cannot be here to save us either all the time. In fact, maybe God gave up on us. He created the world so he could have someone to talk to, now he's tired of listening. He spoke to us all the time in the bible, but now he is silent, and that may have been because of all the suffering we cause each other. He tried so hard to do something for us, but we keep messing up. All. The. Time. He flooded us last time, and I think this time, he just quit, but the door is still open to Heaven. But as far as this world goes, we're on are own. And if this whole good. vs. evil thing is going to be based on score, Satan will win. Satan HAS won.  Now in regards of that other topic - Everyone's learning disabilities differ. For example, I'm not able to drive, and my social skills are horrible. There are also little things I can't do. Although I think some of it is based off fear, but I'm sure my mushed up mind plays a role too, as well as a half-ass decent upbringing, so my fears could be justified. When it comes to other things, I'm above average on intelligence. I was tested a while back and discovered this. I believe because my other parts of my brain do not fully work, it gave the other parts more power. Kind of like how a blind man has really sharp hearing. I am a deep thinker, and really, I should have gone to Harvard, and I should be in London right now sitting in front of a fireplace sitting around with other smart people, but because of my damaged mind that have prevented me from doing the other things, as well as being around trash that created tons of fear, I'm forever trapped with Texas peasants. (This comment is not directly towards anyone here. I'm just venting.) I digest.....it's a sensitive topic.  What lead to me creating this thread was when really reviewing the Christian lifestyle a few weeks ago, I thought it does seem like a decent life. Being a Christian who sins all the time however is not so decent. It's hypocrisy and it's a giant lie.....all the time. You carry this label on you, yet you break your own rules? To me, the true Christian does no such thing. And I never denied that Jesus never preached of Hell. If Hell is a real place, then that is all the more reason to study that God. Now do I think it's unfair that God is pretty much forcing us into Heaven at gun point? Yes, but who am I too argue? If he has the power, there's nothing I can do.

 

 

Again, this is assuming any of it's true. While I would sleep well knowing the evil will get their's someday, I may sleep even better knowing one day, I'll be sleeping, and never having to wake up to be around the evil.

 

But if hell is real, I don't wanna go there. And I don't think anyone else here wants to either, so I think we all owe it to ourselves to at least think more about it. I mean, I've had some pretty rotten luck in my twenty-eight years, and unless you've been me, you can't honestly say otherwise, and I really don't wanna end it all by burning in hell forever. One of the reasons why I don't off myself is cause if I do that and I'm wrong, I'll be burning in hell a lot sooner then I should be.

 

If anyone wants to debunk all this, be my guest. If not, that's fine, I'll keep reading other sources regardless.


Ktulu
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 Zeeboe wrote:It is true. I

 

Zeeboe wrote:

It is true. I am not an Atheist. I'm an Agnostic-Atheist. Meaning, I don't know if there is a God, but right now, I have no belief in one.

I'm not sure that's what you are.  I'm an agnostic-atheist, let me break it down in simple terms of what that means to me.  I'm an atheist because EVERY current religion out there is a complete fairytale that makes people feel good about committing atrocities.  I'm an agnostic because logic dictates that if something is beyond nature then us being of nature cannot know.  But as butter pointed out in a different post, that's just intellectual masturbation.  I'm open to the idea, and I comprehend the option to be there... it has no tangible influence on me in any way shape or form.  

To relate this to your post.  I don't fear hell because it doesn't exist.  And I make that claim because I'm an agnostic atheist.  If you fear hell, then you are not an atheist, nor are you agnostic because you actually fear the description of something natural (i.e. burning, torture, etc.).  You then become a theist.

This being said, I'm sorry to hear about your disadvantages.  I think most of us on here have felt like odd ducks from time to time.  I don't consider myself to be overly intelligent, or overly anything really... I'm just a person.  I have my list of disadvantages.  The one thing that helps me is to realize little we differ in the overall balance of advantages versus disadvantages.  I like the caption from a DE-motivational poster "Remember we're all unique, just like snowflakes".  If I may rant some more, I think we're all just too self involved, don't get me wrong I'm just as guilty, but at least I'm aware of it.  I'll live you with this.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.

A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough

without ever having felt sorry for itself"

D.H Lawrence 

And be happy man, it could be a shit load worst Smiling  At least you're not stupid Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


cj
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Whooo, boy.  To start - my

Whooo, boy.  To start - my son who is learning disabled is 33.  His problem is called "communication disorder" or "severe language impaired".  I did not intend to put you and your difficulties down or to start in with - top this!  Though I realize it sure sounded that way.

What helped me a lot was reading A mind at a time by Dr. Mel Levine.  I really wish the book had been written when my son was young.  But still, it has helped me cope.  My son wouldn't be able to understand it - sounds like maybe you would.  It was also available at my library, so you don't have to shell out any money if you don't have any.

http://www.amazon.com/Mind-at-Time-Mel-Levine/dp/0743202236/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296881986&sr=8-1

As for god/s/dess - if I had to choose, I would prefer any god I was involved with to be like Coyote, or Loki, or any of the other trickster types.  At least that way, they would be honest about themselves and their motives and goals concerning humans.  None of this "But he loves you" shit.  (I'm referring to George Carlin's routine about this - it's been posted a lot on here.)

This book might also help.  When I married my now-husband, he said he was agnostic.  And he stuck to that for over 20 years until he read this book a couple of years ago.  Now he says, nope, atheist.  Also available at my library - 50 Reason People Give for Believing in a God by Guy P. Harrison.

http://www.amazon.com/Reasons-People-Give-Believing-God/dp/1591025672/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296882105&sr=1-1

Maybe it is the realization that you are not the only one with these questions.  Maybe it is because Mr. Harrison's refutations are so right on.  I usually don't like to read this kind of book - I either yell - ah, for pete's sake - or sigh - so what else is new?  But this book had me saying, right, right.  Good point.

If your only concern is hell fire, I have to ask - why stick with a god that allows 5 year old girls to be sold to a man who then rapes and strangles them?  What sin could that child have committed that deserved that kind of torture?  And it would have been torture for a 5 year old to be raped by an adult man - even if the man had exceptionally small equipment, it would have been way too big for her.  (Sorry to be graphic, but this haunts me.)  What would this teach her?  It is pointless - and you want to hang with a god that allows that shit to happen?  (I'll look up the newspaper reports if you want - happened about 2 years ago in North Carolina.)

Look - what I remember before I was born is nothing.  What other people claim to remember about past lives is baloney.  When I am dead, I will know - nothing.  And who wants to sit around listening to harp music and billions of off-key people trying to sing for eternity?  No thanks.

I'd rather be in hell.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Zeeboe wrote: It is

Zeeboe wrote:
It is true. I am not an Atheist. I'm an Agnostic-Atheist. Meaning, I don't know if there is a God, but right now, I have no belief in one. I want to be fair, and not just preach the atheist side in me where I'm just bad-mouthing Christianity. I wish to study both sides so I can learn more about life and human nature. Sometimes my comments may come across like I am an atheist, other times they will come across like I am a Christian.

But it is not a dichotomy between atheism and Christianity. Why don't you ever come across like a Muslim? Or a Hindu?

Zeeboe wrote:
That is my point - Maybe God is as human as you and I, and just like there's nothing you and I can do about some crime happening over in Europe, God cannot be here to save us either all the time.

Then why call him God?

Zeeboe wrote:
In fact, maybe God gave up on us. He created the world so he could have someone to talk to, now he's tired of listening. He spoke to us all the time in the bible, but now he is silent, and that may have been because of all the suffering we cause each other. He tried so hard to do something for us, but we keep messing up. All. The. Time. He flooded us last time, and I think this time, he just quit, but the door is still open to Heaven. But as far as this world goes, we're on are own. And if this whole good. vs. evil thing is going to be based on score, Satan will win. Satan HAS won.

Imho, the God of the Bible is evil. From my moral perspective, Yahweh was much worse than Satan in the Bible; if there is a good vs. evil fight at all, which there is no good evidence for, I don't see that Yahweh would necessarily be the good one. He is a genocidal narcissist of the worst kind. Do you not agree that it is wrong for him to flood the world for not following his whims? The worst thing I can recall Satan doing is telling Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, and considering the fact that that gave us knowledge, and it was admittedly part of God's plan, it should logically be considered something good.

Zeeboe wrote:
What lead to me creating this thread was when really reviewing the Christian lifestyle a few weeks ago, I thought it does seem like a decent life. Being a Christian who sins all the time however is not so decent. It's hypocrisy and it's a giant lie.....all the time. You carry this label on you, yet you break your own rules? To me, the true Christian does no such thing.

Of course, but the lifestyle that you've described is NOT an exclusively "Christian" lifestyle. It is simply a nice lifestyle that you respect; the idea that you have to be a Christian to be kind to others, to not lie, to help your community, etc., that is one of the worst lies religion has ever told.

I can see that if Christianity were a true and morally sound religion, then people who really followed it must be nice people i.e. those are the true Christians. But, Christianity is not a true and morally sound religion. So, instead of dividing people into "true" Christians and false Christians, it makes a lot more sense to just divide them into "good" people and "bad" people. There are good and bad people in any religious or non-religious group.

Zeeboe wrote:
And I never denied that Jesus never preached of Hell. If Hell is a real place, then that is all the more reason to study that God. Now do I think it's unfair that God is pretty much forcing us into Heaven at gun point? Yes, but who am I too argue? If he has the power, there's nothing I can do.

Again, this is assuming any of it's true. While I would sleep well knowing the evil will get their's someday, I may sleep even better knowing one day, I'll be sleeping, and never having to wake up to be around the evil.

But if hell is real, I don't wanna go there. And I don't think anyone else here wants to either, so I think we all owe it to ourselves to at least think more about it. I mean, I've had some pretty rotten luck in my twenty-eight years, and unless you've been me, you can't honestly say otherwise, and I really don't wanna end it all by burning in hell forever. One of the reasons why I don't off myself is cause if I do that and I'm wrong, I'll be burning in hell a lot sooner then I should be.

If anyone wants to debunk all this, be my guest. If not, that's fine, I'll keep reading other sources regardless.

I assume you understand how Pascal's Wager is unsound?

I think you just need more time to worry about it or at least, I hope so.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Imho, the

butterbattle wrote:

Imho, the God of the Bible is evil.

(He would be) by all definitions (if he were an actuality).

Therefore, it is completely non sequitur (the conclusion does not follow the premise) that he would be the one who defines other's behaviours as being distinctly different in merit/value when their's are the same as his.

Rational people, would recognize, and understand the hypocrisy and double standard of "Do as I say, not as I do", and find themselves completely incompatible with idolizing a toxic, destructive, maniacal, bipolar hypocrite.

Making a god the exception to the rules he sets forth, and worshipping him, exhalting to the highest status imaginable, is completely insecure, inane, absurd, submissive, masochistic, inferiority complex driven, and cognitively dissonant.

 

To theists,

 

Good luck with all those....

 

Regards,

 

redneF

 

P.S. You're all pvssies.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Zeeboe wrote:It is true. I

Zeeboe wrote:

It is true. I am not an Atheist. I'm an Agnostic-Atheist. Meaning, I don't know if there is a God, but right now, I have no belief in one. I want to be fair, and not just preach the atheist side in me where I'm just bad-mouthing Christianity. I wish to study both sides so I can learn more about life and human nature. Sometimes my comments may come across like I am an atheist, other times they will come across like I am a Christian. Now in regards of the last question -
 The definition of an Agnostic Atheist, would be one that would say, I do not know if god is real or not but since there is absolutely no evidence for one, I see no reason to believe in one . 
Zeeboe wrote:
 Ya know, there's billions of people out there. How could God care about each one? How could he hear all their prayers? That is my point - Maybe God is as human as you and I, and just like there's nothing you and I can do about some crime happening over in Europe, God cannot be here to save us either all the time. In fact, maybe God gave up on us. He created the world so he could have someone to talk to, now he's tired of listening. He spoke to us all the time in the bible, but now he is silent, and that may have been because of all the suffering we cause each other. He tried so hard to do something for us, but we keep messing up. All. The. Time. He flooded us last time, and I think this time, he just quit, but the door is still open to Heaven. But as far as this world goes, we're on are own. And if this whole good. vs. evil thing is going to be based on score, Satan will win. Satan HAS won.
 If god has given up on his own creations because he is tired of us, then there would be no reason to think that he leaves the door open to Heaven for any of us. If god created us for the soul purpose of talking to us, why has he hidden completely from us ? I like the analogy that ex-minister uses on here about absentee fathers. If I was born into a household, with no father, and I get a note that says :Hello son, I am your father, you'll never see me, you'll never know for sure that I exist, you'll never even meet anyone that knows for sure who I am, your just going to have to have faith that this note is from your real father. But, I want you to follow all of these rules that I left behind for you and follow them to the letter or I promised to ensure your eternal suffering. Would you consider that the actions of a good or sane father ? 
Zeeboe wrote:
   And I never denied that Jesus never preached of Hell. If Hell is a real place, then that is all the more reason to study that God. Now do I think it's unfair that God is pretty much forcing us into Heaven at gun point? Yes, but who am I too argue? If he has the power, there's nothing I can do.
 What if it is like the traditional Jewish faith says and there is no hell ? What if it is reincarnation ? What if it is like the Islamic Fundamentals say ? What if it is like the Calvinist type Christians say and we are pre-destined for hell irregardless of what we do ?

 

 

Zeeboe wrote:

But if hell is real, I don't wanna go there. And I don't think anyone else here wants to either, so I think we all owe it to ourselves to at least think more about it. I mean, I've had some pretty rotten luck in my twenty-eight years, and unless you've been me, you can't honestly say otherwise, and I really don't wanna end it all by burning in hell forever. One of the reasons why I don't off myself is cause if I do that and I'm wrong, I'll be burning in hell a lot sooner then I should be.

 

An eternal punishment for a temporary lifetime would indicate the actions of something very evil indeed.

Besides that, whenever talk of hell is brought up to me, I always ask the Christians the same question : How could I possibly hope to enjoy an eternal heaven knowing that other people beneath me are burning in hell ? How could I tolerate the actions of such a god in heaven ?

Why would god wish to punish people forever anyway ? How are people supposed to learn from their errors if they are just being burned forever ?

Why would a god, that you believe can not possibly care about everyone nor be concerned with everyone, worry about their belief systems and actions enough to punish them forever ?

You mentioned that god could not hear everyone's prayers, then how do you arrive at the conclusion that god will have any regards for what would happen to people when they die if he doesn't even care about what happens to us in this life ?

Zeeboe, when I was struggling with my faith, around the time I began to seriously doubt the existence of god, I did much of the same thing that you seem to be doing here. Of course, I truly can not say for sure what your reasons are because I do not know you and have not had your experiences.  But just speaking from my own experiences, I remember when I began to have serious doubts about my faith.

I began to interpret parts of the Bible to suit exactly what I thought god should be like and what the mystery of god was really all about. I began to find justifications for all the unanswered questions about god. I found reasons why god would allow suffering, I found reasons why god would hide from humanity, I found reasons for why the old testament god seemed so inherently cruel. I even formulated an idea that everyone truly goes to heaven at the end of their life and life was all a test. Here was the crux of my problem :

Somewhere along the way I realized that all I was doing was projecting my own thoughts and ideas about god into the picture. I was in essence, making excuses for god and figuring out a way for all the inconsistencies to line up with my conscious and still have the god belief. But I could not do it. No matter what reasoning I could puzzle out for god's behavior, the questions still left me with serious doubts and did not bring me any peace.

It is very normal for people to insert their own humanity into god belief. For instance, I have asked people "What are you going to do if God asks you to leave your families or commit a crime ?,". Their answer was always "Well, God is not going to ask me to do something like that,".

How would they know that ?

I personally had to finally look within and realize where all of these perceptions of god was coming from. For me, they were coming from all the things that I had been taught. When my faith began to crumble, I was doing the same thing many Christians sects do. All I was doing was rejecting the aspects of god belief that I did not think made sense and embracing aspects of god belief that made sense to me. In other words, I was picking and choosing what god was without even realizing it.

Once I realized that, it took me a step further towards leaving god belief behind.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Whitefox
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Zeeboe wrote:FYI: I may come

Zeeboe wrote:

FYI: I may come across as a Christian in this post, but I am still an agnostic. I enjoy having deep discussions about religion, human nature, and history, and I am just sharing my thoughts//opinions/questions, and hope to get feedback.

2 Timothy 2,3-4 says "God our Saviour ... desires that all men might be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."

God has two desires in otherwords for everyone in this forum.  That each one hear will experience salvation (It has to be a real experience not a faked one).  And come to the knowledge of the truth.

I believe that the problem with believing the truth comes first.  It is what stops people frome wanting to enter into salvation. 

There are many assaults on the truth today.

The generation today rightly finds it very difficult to believe anything they hear. There are so many lies and so many hypocrates regardless of belief. The worst hypocrates being the ones that claim they know the truth and then as you say they get drunk, lie, steal, cheat and live without allowing their lives to be ruled by God's laws.  If you believed Gods laws you would be more willing to obey them.  If you say you believe God then disobey his laws you are useless as far as your opinions go.  WHo wants to hear the opinion of someone who has no change in their lives to demonstrate that they are telling us the truth?

I pity this generation because there is very little light, very little salt, very little to hold on to.

You need to go on a quest for truth and hold onto any shred of it you can get your hands on.  If you sincerely seek the truth God promises he will reveal Himself to you. IF he manifests (or reveals same thing) Himself to you you will have no doubt that he is real and you will have no doubt what you must do.  You will be able to ignore all the false things around you and you will be able to become Perfect in your understanding and in every other way able to bring your negative thoughts under subjection, able to enjoy your life. The promise is great regarding the truth.

People here in this forum all have truths they wish to discuss and argue. But primarily the truth they present here is that there is no trutn.  That is the first thing you and anyone here needs to decide for himself. Is there truth.  If there is it is exclusive. All else is made untrue.  If everyones truth is true then nothing is true. There must be only one truth of any particular topic whater it is.  But this generation has been sold a bill of goods. It has been taught that what is true for you might not be true for me.  That is faliciaus thinking if you believe it. Becaues if that is so then there is no such thing as truth. There is nothing to look for. There is no sincere search.  In fact people in this forum believe so much that there is no ultimate truth that they all want to console each other by pointing out all the things that are not true.

There are a lot of lies to unravel in comming to the truth. I suggest a prayer. A prayer to an unknown God who you do not know is real or not. Pray that He will reveal Himself to you as you read His word the Bible and that if He is real that He would make Himself known (manifest Himself or Reveal Himself) to you.  If God is not real then He will not answer your prayer. No harm done. If He is real you'd better pay attention. 

The  first step in finding out if He is real is deciding if anything is real. If anything is real then truth must exist. If truth exists then you must find out what the truth is and you have begun your quest.  Try looking everywhere for the truth. But don't exclude looking into the Bible as no other religion claims to hold exclusive truth, only the Bible does. Budha ssaid he was one way to truth. The Hindus say that all rifers lead to one ocean.  All the ways will bring you to the truth. But the Bible says "I am the truth" - Jesus speaking.  "I am the way" - Jesus speaking. "He that has the truth has life". "He that has not the truth has not life".  Those are pretty strong truth claims worth investigating.

You indicate many dissilusionments in your post. If I can help you with one concern at a time you can SKYPE Skype ID: BIBLEDOOR.  Any one else can as well.k

One thing I will say is that this community does care regardless of what side of the thesits vs Atheist argument is presented by the poster.  Its good to see a caring forum.Ray,

Whitefox.

 

 

God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
www.truthiswhatmatters.com & www.bibledoor.com


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Whitefox wrote:People here

Whitefox wrote:

People here in this forum all have truths they wish to discuss and argue. But primarily the truth they present here is that there is no trutn.  That is the first thing you and anyone here needs to decide for himself. Is there truth.  If there is it is exclusive. All else is made untrue.  If everyones truth is true then nothing is true. There must be only one truth of any particular topic whater it is.  But this generation has been sold a bill of goods. It has been taught that what is true for you might not be true for me.  That is faliciaus thinking if you believe it. Becaues if that is so then there is no such thing as truth. There is nothing to look for. There is no sincere search.  In fact people in this forum believe so much that there is no ultimate truth that they all want to console each other by pointing out all the things that are not true.

We are not epistemic relativists. I actually agree with you. The very assertion that truth is subjective falls into incoherency.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Ktulu
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Whitefox wrote:There are a

Whitefox wrote:

There are a lot of lies to unravel in comming to the truth. I suggest a prayer. A prayer to an unknown God who you do not know is real or not. Pray that He will reveal Himself to you as you read His word the Bible and that if He is real that He would make Himself known (manifest Himself or Reveal Himself) to you.  If God is not real then He will not answer your prayer. No harm done. If He is real you'd better pay attention. 

The  first step in finding out if He is real is deciding if anything is real. If anything is real then truth must exist. If truth exists then you must find out what the truth is and you have begun your quest.  Try looking everywhere for the truth. But don't exclude looking into the Bible as no other religion claims to hold exclusive truth, only the Bible does. Budha ssaid he was one way to truth. The Hindus say that all rifers lead to one ocean.  All the ways will bring you to the truth. But the Bible says "I am the truth" - Jesus speaking.  "I am the way" - Jesus speaking. "He that has the truth has life". "He that has not the truth has not life".  Those are pretty strong truth claims worth investigating.

You indicate many dissilusionments in your post. If I can help you with one concern at a time you can SKYPE Skype ID: BIBLEDOOR.  Any one else can as well.k

One thing I will say is that this community does care regardless of what side of the thesits vs Atheist argument is presented by the poster.  Its good to see a caring forum.Ray,

Whitefox.

I tried the prayer thing when I was much younger and much more gullible, and nobody answered.  I'm not sure if that's a very good test of god's existence.  Do you think that 6 million jews didn't pray during the holocaust? There are about 6 million negative results to that experiment.  By comparison, what you may perceive as a 'sign' is at best self delusion, and at worst dishonest.

You must first define 'truth'.  Truth as commonly used is indeed subjective.  I believe you're referring to the platonic truth here, and whatever that truth may be, I really doubt that you'll find it in your book.  Your book is ridden with inconsistencies and contradictions.  You apply truth metaphorically and literally as it suits you.  That goes against any definition of truth that I know.  So while none of us may have the ultimate Truth, I know you do not.  You just claim you do which makes your argument self defeating.  

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc