How Did Jeffrey Dahmer Define Morality?

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How Did Jeffrey Dahmer Define Morality?

Post Author: Bill Pratt

jefrey dahmer How Did Jeffrey Dahmer Define Morality?

If morality is not grounded by a transcendent standard, a standard that is above all humanity, then it collapses to relativism.  This concept is not at all difficult to understand, but relativism retains a negative enough connotation these days that atheists, who deny a transcendent, objective standard of morality, are still squeamish about the word.

Jeffrey Dahmer, the serial killer who gained notoriety for eating his victims, understood the connection between God and morality all too well.  Dahmer’s father recounted his son’s moral reasoning in a documentary produced in 1996: “If it all happens naturalistically, what’s the need for a God?  Can’t I set my own rules?  Who owns me?  I own myself.”

Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all.  You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

In an interview in 1994, Dahmer himself explained his thinking.  He wondered that if there were no God and we all came “from the slime,” then “what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?”

The fact that we all instinctively cry out at Dahmer’s behavior does nothing to take away from the fact that his reasoning is right on target.  He embodied the atheist worldview taken to its logical extremes.  You may not like what Dahmer did, but unless you believe in an objective, transcendent moral standard, he didn’t do anything but act unfashionably.

Related posts:

  1. Does Evolution Explain Morality? Part 6
  2. Does Evolution Explain Morality? Part 5
  3. What Do We Know About Morality? Part 1
  4. Does Evolution Explain Morality? Part 4
  5. What Do We Know About Morality? Part 2

 

"This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."
--- Ecclesiastes 7:29, The Holy Bible


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Kind of hard to ignore the

Kind of hard to ignore the guy was a psychopath, but you seem to have managed it.


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Funny how he also managed to

Funny how he also managed to ignore the fact that Dahmer and God had the same reasoning behind why they committed their atrocities.

Because they could.

JCLordKing, doesn't the fact you worship Jesus put you in violation of the first commandment?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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JCLordKing wrote:Exactly. 

JCLordKing wrote:

Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all.  You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

  

So how do you explain people like John Wayne Gacy that was very active in the Catholic Church within his community ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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JCLordKing wrote:The fact

JCLordKing wrote:

The fact that we all instinctively cry out at Dahmer’s behavior does nothing to take away from the fact that his reasoning is right on target.  He embodied the atheist worldview taken to its logical extremes.  You may not like what Dahmer did, but unless you believe in an objective, transcendent moral standard, he didn’t do anything but act unfashionably.

 

Actually, scientific studies point to perfectly biological and natural causes for sociopathic behavior. So in effect, if you believe in God, you could say that God made Dahmer to think that way.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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So is your argument

So is your argument essentially that you and your fellow Christians would become mass murders if it were not for religion? You all have an evil Mr. Hyde that can only be controlled with the fear of hell?

The evidence is that LESS religious societies are LESS violent and have less criminal behavior. How do you explain this phenomena?

If having the delusion of an invisible friend is the only thing that restrains Christians from criminal behavior. How do we no religion is best for your condition. Perhaps we should admit Christians in mental hospitals, give you anti-psychotic drugs and shock therapy to protect society.

The fact of the matter is that an religious person can invent a god of convenience when they want to commit any act such as murder. Religion is no restraint.

And why isn't religious morality relative? You can choose whatever god you want with whatever moral standard you wish. Do you follow the bible's teaching in the sermon on the mount? No. You pick and choose the morality based on what is best for yourself, same as every other person. Then you claim your morality comes from God or the bible when it clearly does not.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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He's right though, to an

He's right though, to an extent.  What he missed is that we are not islands or morality...our morality extends to our societies.  He lived in a society that did not approve of his behavior, he did not conform to that, and he suffered the consequences of that action.

 

Even someone without any capacity for empathy should know they need to follow some socially acceptable moral code or they will be restrained or killed by those who do.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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My bad

jcgadfly wrote:

JCLordKing, doesn't the fact you worship Jesus put you in violation of the first commandment?

I thought JCLordKing was a "hood" name - but thx now I see it in context LOL

What Would Jesus Drive? Well, God preferred an old Plymouth, "God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden in a Fury"; Moses was said to ride a motor bike, "the roar of Moses’ Triumph is heard in the hills", while the apostles would carpool in a Honda, "the apostles were in one Accord".


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mellestad wrote:He's right

mellestad wrote:

He's right though, to an extent.  What he missed is that we are not islands or morality...our morality extends to our societies.  He lived in a society that did not approve of his behavior, he did not conform to that, and he suffered the consequences of that action.

 

Even someone without any capacity for empathy should know they need to follow some socially acceptable moral code or they will be restrained or killed by those who do.

 

Exactly, I think he's demonizing J.D. because he actually ate his victims.  If there is one thing that most secular societies agree on is that you should try to cause as little suffering as possible.  And that is it.  It's not the fact that he ate dead bodies that bothers me, it's the fact that he caused those people to die.  If he went out and ate people that died naturally... well, that's f*cked up but he didn't cause anyone any suffering.  Except perhaps emotional distress to the relatives of the corpses.  

Non secular societies on the other hand are treating the word of god as an ultimate truth, and hence the ultimate taboo is not causing suffering but going against some seriously delusional beliefs.  How is that morally superior?  Think of the inquisition you brainwashed imbecile.

Freaking Jeffery Dahmer argument.  I find those arguments so idiotic but somehow I'm always drawn to respond to them, I'm so gullible.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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All people who have

All people who have mustaches must love Hitler. That would mean all Catholics are kiddy fiddlers.

Dahmer's brain wiring was fucked up. No need for a cosmic super hero or magical super villain to explain reality.

Your problem is that your theistic definition of "natural" is comic book based.

Bad things happen and are natural. "Natural" simply means we observe it, it doesn't mean we want it affecting us. Hurricanes and cancer are natural, in the strictest sense that we observe these bad things happen. Dahmer's behavior is a result of his own natural brain activity, not some man in a red leotard with a pitchfork arranging the neurons in his brain.

What would be "unnatural" is if after Dahmer killed them, they magically came back to life. The fact that horrible things happen in human history is not a product of Mickey Mouse or Lex Luthor. Comic book explanations are not needed to say what this sicko did was bad.

But I do find it funny that you ignore what others have pointed out about the alleged morality of the god you claim to believe in being the same "I can do what I want" you rightfully condemn Damher for.

I am glad humans simply don't blindly accept "I can do what I want" otherwise why arrest this sicko? Maybe we arrest this sicko, not because of magic, but because Dahmer's minority behavior in our species is not advantages to our evolution.

Go read your bible without your beer goggles on and READ about the selfish dictator character you worship. He "does what he wants to".

And in your alleged god character's actions carpet bombs humans in his effort to rid humanity of sinners IE the flood and Hurricane Katrina and the Tsunami that killed 200,000. Even his believers died in these events(well not the flood because that is a myth)

However, when you strip BOTH the good and bad in life from a magical puppeteer OF ANY LABEL, "Shit happens" is enough to explain reality without turning it into superstition.

Dahmer's horrible actions are a result of flawed evolution and flawed personality disorders, not magical villains.

If you want to thank your inept deadbeat fictional friend for the home that allowed the monster called Dahmer, be my guest, but I wouldn't hire your alleged god to scoop up my dog's doo doo. I personally thank law enforcement and the courts who convicted him.

 

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Hmmm, sociopaths and

Hmmm, sociopaths and morailty, punishment, interesting...  I wonder how exactly your god would go about punishing a sociopath.  Someone without the ability to feel empathy, someone without the abilty for a conscience, someone who does not at all recognize the rights of others, someone who is basically numb, dead inside,  would he torture him in hellfire?  What would that teach a sociopath, nothing!!!  He'd probably get off on it.  A sociopath like Dahmer it not able to understand he did wrong, he is not able to understand the rights other humans have.  It is in his nature, and your "god" should have known that about him, he does know everything right?  If your god sends Dahmer to "hell" for what he has done would he not have to change who Dahmer is so that he would be capable of "feeling" the punishment, understanding he did wrong, and feeling sorry for it.  And if he did do this, wouldn't it no longer be Dahmer, wouldn't it then be someone who is now capable of empathy, and capable of understanding he did wrong, making him a different person, a person who wouldn't have committed the crimes.  Would god change him just enough to feel the punishment, but not enough to change who he is?  How does this make sense to you?  And how is this atall a good argument for objective moralilty, from a god who acts ALOTE like Dahmer ironically. 

Infact as pointed out, they have alote of the same motivations, and reasons for their horrible behavior.  They both feel as though everyone belongs to them, and it is their right to use others as they please.  They both have sever control issues, and because of this they need to control (have power) over others.  They both seem to completely disregard human rights/life, and believe that in the end the fate of others is their decision.  They both have killed many many people in horrible, disgusting manners (gods kill count is a little higher though, higher by about a million or so).  They both actively persue such controlling, violent behavior fueled by their own crazy.  Hmmm, the more I think about it, the more your god seems much like a sociopath.


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Now, I blasted you pretty

Now, I blasted you pretty good. I make no apologies at all for such. There are other believers here who have been here a long time who did not come in here off the bat trying to make all atheists look evil with such bullshit.

If you want to stay here and debate us, we do want you here. But you will not get away with trying to equate all atheists to Dahmer with this crap.

You have more to worry about with your own claims without this bullshit. You come in here with your venom and we will throw it right back at you.

If you want a long stay here, lose your stereotypes of atheists. We are all individuals here and you will do yourself a service by treating us as such and refrain from ignorant stunts like this.

I personally don't mind the verbal boxing gloves, but I am not every atheist here and even the more library types here find your attempt to equate us all to Dahmar absurd.

If you want to prove to me that you are genuinely for a debate, and not a childish hit and run copy and paste poster, come back, but lose the attitude and bullshit argument.

 

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It's mostly correct. Seems

It's mostly correct. Seems to be implying some unsound arguments though.

JCLordKing wrote:
Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all.  You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

He's legally accountable at least. He obviously didn't have much foresight, unless he was "pleased" to just murder people and then get beaten to death in prison.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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JCLordKing wrote:Exactly. 

JCLordKing wrote:

Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all.  You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

 

No one at all ? What about family and friends ?

Do you really think that if the majority of the world were to find out there was ultimately no god that people would abandon their children, kill their spouses, rob banks and start committing cannibalism ?

As pointed out already. Christians must have a very ugly view of the face of humanity.

Of course, if the creations are indeed so inherently bad, it would seem to indicate to me it is because the CREATOR is inherently bad.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Morality is not defined

Morality is not defined purely by an individual's own feelings, which incidentally is why the Golden Rule is flawed.

If an act only affects the individual themselves, then it is fine for them to base decisions about such acts on their own personal feelings.

Once other people are affected, even potentially, then morality has to be based on some sort of consensus.

If we wish to share any of the benefits of society, then we are automatically accountable to that society.

Evolution very much explains real morality, since we are a social species,which rely to a very large extent on cooperation for survival, and cooperation is greatly enhanced by avoiding actions which cause pain/distress/general harm to others.

God cannot serve as a standard of morality, for many reasons.

First, we have no way of knowing with any certainty what his wishes are, at least since He apparently stopped handing out tablets a few thousand years ago. Even then we only have one person's testimony that he received those tablets from a 'miraculous' manifestation. Even then he had no way to know that that manifestation was really the Creator of the Universe, and not some alien visitor.

And even if we could somehow establish the origin of such instructions, we have no proof that such a being really was motivated by consideration of own best interests, or in maximizing our ultimate life-satisfaction, by whatever standards.

So, no matter how you cut it, a Theistic morality has a far less solid basis than any secular morality.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

JCLordKing wrote:

Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all.  You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

 

No one at all ? What about family and friends ?

Do you really think that if the majority of the world were to find out there was ultimately no god that people would abandon their children, kill their spouses, rob banks and start committing cannibalism ?

As pointed out already. Christians must have a very ugly view of the face of humanity.

Of course, if the creations are indeed so inherently bad, it would seem to indicate to me it is because the CREATOR is inherently bad.

You ingrate. How dare you blame the car manufacture for the defective breaks he didn't have to build and knew full well the car he FORCED you into would crash. Just be happy that you have a defective car.

It's people like you that give accountability a bad name. The accountability of God to the believer is whatever god wants to do. I cant see why you'd have a problem with that.

 

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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

JCLordKing wrote:

Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all.  You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

 

No one at all ? What about family and friends ?

Do you really think that if the majority of the world were to find out there was ultimately no god that people would abandon their children, kill their spouses, rob banks and start committing cannibalism ?

As pointed out already. Christians must have a very ugly view of the face of humanity.

Of course, if the creations are indeed so inherently bad, it would seem to indicate to me it is because the CREATOR is inherently bad.

You ingrate. How dare you blame the car manufacture for the defective breaks he didn't have to build and knew full well the car he FORCED you into would crash. Just be happy that you have a defective car.

It's people like you that give accountability a bad name. The accountability of God to the believer is whatever god wants to do. I cant see why you'd have a problem with that.

 

I think you have to specify /sarcasm otherwise the original poster may take this as an affirmation of his views.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:Brian37

Ktulu wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You ingrate. How dare you blame the car manufacture for the defective breaks he didn't have to build and knew full well the car he FORCED you into would crash. Just be happy that you have a defective car.

It's people like you that give accountability a bad name. The accountability of God to the believer is whatever god wants to do. I cant see why you'd have a problem with that.

 

I think you have to specify /sarcasm otherwise the original poster may take this as an affirmation of his views.

Haha, true enough.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Ktulu wrote:Brian37

Ktulu wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

JCLordKing wrote:

Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all.  You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

 

No one at all ? What about family and friends ?

Do you really think that if the majority of the world were to find out there was ultimately no god that people would abandon their children, kill their spouses, rob banks and start committing cannibalism ?

As pointed out already. Christians must have a very ugly view of the face of humanity.

Of course, if the creations are indeed so inherently bad, it would seem to indicate to me it is because the CREATOR is inherently bad.

You ingrate. How dare you blame the car manufacture for the defective breaks he didn't have to build and knew full well the car he FORCED you into would crash. Just be happy that you have a defective car.

It's people like you that give accountability a bad name. The accountability of God to the believer is whatever god wants to do. I cant see why you'd have a problem with that.

 

I think you have to specify /sarcasm otherwise the original poster may take this as an affirmation of his views.

You got me on that one. We wouldn't want the "Dumb and Dumber" crowed saying, "So you're saying there's a chance". Of course I was being sarcastic in the post you quoted here.

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If you are trying to argue

If you are trying to argue for the existence of a God as conceived in the major Abrahamic religions, 'morality' is the very worst basis you could choose.

All the evidence is against you, starting with the classic 'Problem of Evil'.

There are just so many events, so many facts about the nature of life, about the 'design' of our bodies, which raise serious problems in the context of a 'good', benevolent, just God, which all simply disappear in the context of a natural, Godless Universe.

All you need to argue that GD's actions were wrong is that the vast majority of humans find them repulsive at a gut level, with no conceivable positive effects on anyone. That's it. Just as most people would find the idea of flooding the whole earth to kill everything even more evil, if it was not presented in a religious context. Religion provides a way for distorting our moral sense as much as or even more than supporting it.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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First, let me just thank all

First, let me just thank all those who responded to my post for your input. My post contained no foul language aimed at atheists in general, and certainly none directed at any one of you. Your inclinations toward insults, sarcasm and name-calling have done nothing more than bolstered my premise: that natural man is debased at his core, and without the existence of a higher moral standard, would follow, to the extreme, the logical course provided for by believing in no God, and thus having no accountability ramifications. To not be able, and with seasoned wisdom and restrained passion, to discuss intelligently and reasonably the one issue that will determine each of our eternities without reverting to such immature and irrelevant tactics as these is a shame, indeed.

 

 

"This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."
--- Ecclesiastes 7:29, The Holy Bible


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JCLordKing wrote:First, let

JCLordKing wrote:

First, let me just thank all those who responded to my post for your input. My post contained no foul language aimed at atheists in general, and certainly none directed at any one of you. Your inclinations toward insults, sarcasm and name-calling have done nothing more than bolstered my premise: that natural man is debased at his core, and without the existence of a higher moral standard, would follow, to the extreme, the logical course provided for by believing in no God, and thus having no accountability ramifications. To not be able, and with seasoned wisdom and restrained passion, to discuss intelligently and reasonably the one issue that will determine each of our eternities without reverting to such immature and irrelevant tactics as these is a shame, indeed.

 

Wait, so your argument is, "Some people used dirty words, therefor God."?  Really?

Why even bother to post if you have no interest in discussion?

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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JCLordKing wrote:First, let

JCLordKing wrote:

First, let me just thank all those who responded to my post for your input. My post contained no foul language aimed at atheists in general, and certainly none directed at any one of you. Your inclinations toward insults, sarcasm and name-calling have done nothing more than bolstered my premise: that natural man is debased at his core, and without the existence of a higher moral standard, would follow, to the extreme, the logical course provided for by believing in no God, and thus having no accountability ramifications. To not be able, and with seasoned wisdom and restrained passion, to discuss intelligently and reasonably the one issue that will determine each of our eternities without reverting to such immature and irrelevant tactics as these is a shame, indeed.

 

Insults and sarcasm ? Are you sure your not just using ad hominems ?

What about some of the questions posed above in response ?

Do you not have any replies ?

Or would you rather use your perceptions of "debased man" to build a strawman argument ?

Excuse me, but some of the points above seemed very well reasoned and thought out to me. It looks as though your just making excuses to not argue your point for fear of not being able to continue with a valid argument.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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If that's what you got out

If that's what you got out of what I've just stated, I can see it's futile discussing anything with you.

"This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."
--- Ecclesiastes 7:29, The Holy Bible


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JCLordKing wrote:First, let

JCLordKing wrote:

First, let me just thank all those who responded to my post for your input. My post contained no foul language aimed at atheists in general, and certainly none directed at any one of you. Your inclinations toward insults, sarcasm and name-calling have done nothing more than bolstered my premise: that natural man is debased at his core, and without the existence of a higher moral standard, would follow, to the extreme, the logical course provided for by believing in no God, and thus having no accountability ramifications. To not be able, and with seasoned wisdom and restrained passion, to discuss intelligently and reasonably the one issue that will determine each of our eternities without reverting to such immature and irrelevant tactics as these is a shame, indeed.

 

 

Thank you so much for your wisdom. I am glad you pointed out that our species is nothing but garbage. I don't think all 7 billion of us are. Funny, but mere name calling never killed an abortion doctor or slammed plains into buildings. When was the last time you heard an atheist shout "I BLOW MYSELF UP IN THE NAME OF RICHARD DAWKINS"........

A "fuck you" is the worst you are going to get from us, that is more than I can say for religious people. Thanks for showing us what a snide self centered prick you are.

"immature" is equating all people in a given label to a monster like Dahmer. YOU need to grow the fuck up.

You came in here with a self rightious attitude thinking you could impress us by equating us to a monster and then have the nerve to pretend to be shocked that we would take offense.  And the sad fact is we, at least I am not offended that you made the claim, but that you are too much of an intelectual coward to provide evidence for your absurd naked assertion.

Run away little crybaby, because debating is hard and you don't want to hear it when people disagree with you.

Maybe you think our species is garbage, but it is my hope that our species can ween itself off of bigoted bullshit like yours.

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JCLordKing wrote:If that's

JCLordKing wrote:

If that's what you got out of what I've just stated, I can see it's futile discussing anything with you.

One last thing, before you crawl back under the rock you stuck your head out from under. Caposkia is a believer who has debated for TWO pluss years on this site and has taken every hit we have thrown at him. He may be frustrated with us, but HE did not come in here trying to equate us to monsters.

He has lasted a long time because unlike you, he hasn't taken our blasphemy personally. I might not respect his belief, but I damned sure respect his attitude of knowing how to separate a person from what the person claims. YOU want to treat all of humanity like garbage, and you want me to respect that?

 

 

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{Thank you so much for your

{Thank you so much for your wisdom. I am glad you pointed out that our species is nothing but garbage. I don't think all 7 billion of us are. Funny, but mere name calling never killed an abortion doctor or slammed plains into buildings. When was the last time you heard an atheist shout "I BLOW MYSELF UP IN THE NAME OF RICHARD DAWKINS"........

A "fuck you" is the worst you are going to get from us, that is more than I can say for religious people. Thanks for showing us what a snide self centered prick you are.

"immature" is equating all people in a given label to a monster like Dahmer. YOU need to grow the fuck up.

You came in here with a self rightious attitude thinking you could impress us by equating us to a monster and then have the nerve to pretend to be shocked that we would take offense.  And the sad fact is we, at least I am not offended that you made the claim, but that you are too much of an intelectual coward to provide evidence for your absurd naked assertion.

Run away little crybaby, because debating is hard and you don't want to hear it when people disagree with you.

Maybe you think our species is garbage, but it is my hope that our species can ween itself off of bigoted bullshit like yours.}

 

 

 

I defer to my previous comment...

 

"This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."
--- Ecclesiastes 7:29, The Holy Bible


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No attempt whatever to

No attempt whatever to respond to a number of seriously presented counter arguments.

You got what you deserve.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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JCLordKing wrote:If that's

JCLordKing wrote:

If that's what you got out of what I've just stated, I can see it's futile discussing anything with you.

A couple people give your belief some crap and you don't want to talk anymore.  I'm sorry, but it is just silly to come here soliciting comments, then ignore 90% of them and say, "Checkmate atheists, I win because someone posted something I didn't like!"

 

Did you just come here for that, or are you actually interested in discussion?  If you are, then discuss, rebut, do *something*.

 

I don't understand what the motivation would be to take the time to write post, then sit back and refuse to discuss anything anyone says about it.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:JCLordKing

mellestad wrote:

JCLordKing wrote:

First, let me just thank all those who responded to my post for your input. My post contained no foul language aimed at atheists in general, and certainly none directed at any one of you. Your inclinations toward insults, sarcasm and name-calling have done nothing more than bolstered my premise: that natural man is debased at his core, and without the existence of a higher moral standard, would follow, to the extreme, the logical course provided for by believing in no God, and thus having no accountability ramifications. To not be able, and with seasoned wisdom and restrained passion, to discuss intelligently and reasonably the one issue that will determine each of our eternities without reverting to such immature and irrelevant tactics as these is a shame, indeed.

 

Wait, so your argument is, "Some people used dirty words, therefor God."?  Really?

Why even bother to post if you have no interest in discussion?

Yea, thats like "Their women don't wear Burkas, and wear bikinis, therefore Allah"

I forgot, cussing should be treated the same as say Catholic priests molesting kids. He could chose to stay and "be the bigger man" to lead us. But, like all crybabies, they run because they fear they might not have a valid argument.

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JCLordKing wrote:If that's

JCLordKing wrote:

If that's what you got out of what I've just stated, I can see it's futile discussing anything with you.

Giving up awful easily aren't you ?

Without even wishing to discuss the neurological, psychological possibilities for sociopathic behavior ?

No desire to look at some of the universal traits of thousands of years of cultures and the similiarities that all cultures have for scorning "evil" behavior ?

So your saying that you do not wish to discuss the scientific knowledge of the problems of evil right ?

You would rather make assertions that can not be substantiated by anything other than faith and then just give up right ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Wait, wait, wait.  Shit, I

Wait, wait, wait.  Shit, I just noticed you didn't even write that.  That explains a lot about your inability to defend it.

Mystery solved, I guess.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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BobSpence1 wrote:No attempt

BobSpence1 wrote:

No attempt whatever to respond to a number of seriously presented counter arguments.

You got what you deserve.

Ya common buddy none of the following are aggressive in nature you cry baby now get to it:

 

So how do you explain people like John Wayne Gacy that was very active in the Catholic Church within his community ?

Actually, scientific studies point to perfectly biological and natural causes for sociopathic behavior. So in effect, if you believe in God, you could say that God made Dahmer to think that way.

So is your argument essentially that you and your fellow Christians would become mass murders if it were not for religion? You all have an evil Mr. Hyde that can only be controlled with the fear of hell?

Christians god + JD's personality similarities

How exactly would god punish a sociopath to bring to him "moral justice"

And many more, grow up, be a big boy were not babies here and neither are you.  If you go around comparing people to the likes of JD don't wine when people call you on your complete bullshit logic. 

 

 

 

 


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JCLordKing wrote:First, let

JCLordKing wrote:

First, let me just thank all those who responded to my post for your input. My post contained no foul language aimed at atheists in general, and certainly none directed at any one of you. Your inclinations toward insults, sarcasm and name-calling have done nothing more than bolstered my premise: that natural man is debased at his core, and without the existence of a higher moral standard, would follow, to the extreme, the logical course provided for by believing in no God, and thus having no accountability ramifications. To not be able, and with seasoned wisdom and restrained passion, to discuss intelligently and reasonably the one issue that will determine each of our eternities without reverting to such immature and irrelevant tactics as these is a shame, indeed.

 

 

If there is this final judgement as you believe, I can just say JCLordKing never answered my questions about why I should believe in his god, he just quit. So why shouldn't JC throw you in the fire as well for not being a good servant? What kind of servant throws in the towel so easily? Is JC going to tell you "well done faithful servant" with this attitude?

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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JCLordKing wrote:{Thank you

JCLordKing wrote:

{Thank you so much for your wisdom. I am glad you pointed out that our species is nothing but garbage. I don't think all 7 billion of us are. Funny, but mere name calling never killed an abortion doctor or slammed plains into buildings. When was the last time you heard an atheist shout "I BLOW MYSELF UP IN THE NAME OF RICHARD DAWKINS"........

A "fuck you" is the worst you are going to get from us, that is more than I can say for religious people. Thanks for showing us what a snide self centered prick you are.

"immature" is equating all people in a given label to a monster like Dahmer. YOU need to grow the fuck up.

You came in here with a self rightious attitude thinking you could impress us by equating us to a monster and then have the nerve to pretend to be shocked that we would take offense.  And the sad fact is we, at least I am not offended that you made the claim, but that you are too much of an intelectual coward to provide evidence for your absurd naked assertion.

Run away little crybaby, because debating is hard and you don't want to hear it when people disagree with you.

Maybe you think our species is garbage, but it is my hope that our species can ween itself off of bigoted bullshit like yours.}

 

 

 

I defer to my previous comment...

 

Spoken like a corrupt politician.

YOU came to an atheist site and posted a picture of Dahmer in a childish attempt to warn us of what not believing can lead to. WE called you on it and you didn't like it. Too bad. No one put a gun to your head and forced you to post here.

Now, if you are going to give up on this bullshit tactic, please by all means try to make an argument for the existence of the god you claim to be real. What you will not get away with here is trying to falsely equate us to a monster.

Your fear tactic does not work on us.

 

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mellestad wrote:JCLordKing

mellestad wrote:

JCLordKing wrote:

If that's what you got out of what I've just stated, I can see it's futile discussing anything with you.

A couple people give your belief some crap and you don't want to talk anymore.  I'm sorry, but it is just silly to come here soliciting comments, then ignore 90% of them and say, "Checkmate atheists, I win because someone posted something I didn't like!"

 

Did you just come here for that, or are you actually interested in discussion?  If you are, then discuss, rebut, do *something*.

 

I don't understand what the motivation would be to take the time to write post, then sit back and refuse to discuss anything anyone says about it.

 

I think it is Bobs fault. He read Bob's post, realized he had no ground to stand on, so he decided to pretend to be upset at Brian as an excuse to leave in a huff and save face. I do find it ironic that someone comes on here and compares us to Dahmer then turns around and gets offended because a few people use blunt language. 

 

Somehow, I don't think Dahmer really was considering the moral implications while he was munching on his latest victim. I'm pretty sure Mellestad spends more time thinking about the morality of eating a hamburger than Dahmer ever thought about the morality of eating people. The only useful lesson from Dahmer is that when acting with no moral direction without care for others people can do horrible things. Of course, as others pointed out, secular society took care of him and removed him from the population so he can no longer cause harm. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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JCLordKing wrote:Post

JCLordKing wrote:

Post Author: Bill Pratt

If morality is not grounded by a transcendent standard, a standard that is above all humanity, then it collapses to relativism.  This concept is not at all difficult to understand, but relativism retains a negative enough connotation these days that atheists, who deny a transcendent, objective standard of morality, are still squeamish about the word.

Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all.  You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

You do realize when someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is upon them to demonstrate that the claim is real.

So far, you have made the above assertion, yet have not provided any evidence other than one case for your assertion to be considered valid.

Now, I can provide tons of information about the scientific studies of sociopathic behavior that refute your claim that it comes from a lack of belief in god.

The burden of proof in this case is on you. If you can not prove what your saying to be fact, then I defer to the famous Hitchens quote :

That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Burden of proof is on you. So you can either prove this claim or we can just dismiss it as nonsense.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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mellestad wrote:JCLordKing

mellestad wrote:

JCLordKing wrote:

First, let me just thank all those who responded to my post for your input. My post contained no foul language aimed at atheists in general, and certainly none directed at any one of you. Your inclinations toward insults, sarcasm and name-calling have done nothing more than bolstered my premise: that natural man is debased at his core, and without the existence of a higher moral standard, would follow, to the extreme, the logical course provided for by believing in no God, and thus having no accountability ramifications. To not be able, and with seasoned wisdom and restrained passion, to discuss intelligently and reasonably the one issue that will determine each of our eternities without reverting to such immature and irrelevant tactics as these is a shame, indeed.

 

Wait, so your argument is, "Some people used dirty words, therefor God."?  Really?

The godless immorality behind swearing taking to its extreme will lead you to kill and eat people like JD.  Since all people aren't killing and eating people, god must exist.  Common mellestad get with the program, fuck....


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JCLordKing wrote:First, let

JCLordKing wrote:

First, let me just thank all those who responded to my post for your input. My post contained no foul language aimed at atheists in general, and certainly none directed at any one of you. Your inclinations toward insults, sarcasm and name-calling have done nothing more than bolstered my premise: that natural man is debased at his core, and without the existence of a higher moral standard, would follow, to the extreme, the logical course provided for by believing in no God, and thus having no accountability ramifications. To not be able, and with seasoned wisdom and restrained passion, to discuss intelligently and reasonably the one issue that will determine each of our eternities without reverting to such immature and irrelevant tactics as these is a shame, indeed.

 

I'm still not sure how you got from, "you use sarcasm," to, "without God, we'd all eat each other." Could you go through it again, one premise at a time? 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote: I'm

butterbattle wrote:

 

I'm still not sure how you got from, "you use sarcasm," to, "without God, we'd all eat each other." Could you go through it again, one premise at a time? 

LOL.

It is all hard core PROOF that we are all debased and just plain old evil people all the way to the core without god telling us what to do. We can go from using sarcasm to outright horrendous acts of inhumanity because we are not on speaking terms with the ultimate authority.

Kinda messed up for god to create an entire Earth filled with evil sociopaths that have to be constantly held in check by him isn't it ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Due to my new knowledge of

Due to my new knowledge of how debased I am and in light of the fact that I am a godless heathen, I'm eating another person right now.

 

It is a clown, but it doesn't taste funny at all.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Prediction:  JClordKing has

Prediction:  JClordKing has left the building for good.


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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Prediction:  JClordKing has left the building for good.

I don't expect, or want any believer to leave. I simply wont put up with fallacy of demonizing an entire label.

Seriously, he posts a picture of a monster at an atheist site. Would he post that same picture at a Muslim or Jewish site or Buddhist site. They don't believe in his god either.

All I would say is if he does come back, just drop the attitude and lose the stereotypes.

 

 

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As someone has pointed out,

As someone has pointed out, the inability to defend his OP comes from the fact that he just copied it from somewhere.  I think a lot of the frustration in this forum comes from us attempting to throw perfectly logical arguments in a 'debate' that doesn't have any logical premise.  The correct answer most of those claims is: "I know you are, but what am I?"  or "Yes he is.", my personal favourite " I know he does/doesn't exists so you prove me wrong in my completely emotional, baseless illogical assertion!" 

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:As someone has

Ktulu wrote:

As someone has pointed out, the inability to defend his OP comes from the fact that he just copied it from somewhere.  I think a lot of the frustration in this forum comes from us attempting to throw perfectly logical arguments in a 'debate' that doesn't have any logical premise.  The correct answer most of those claims is: "I know you are, but what am I?"  or "Yes he is.", my personal favourite " I know he does/doesn't exists so you prove me wrong in my completely emotional, baseless illogical assertion!" 

 

I don't think it is as negative as you might think. Personally I think he was a hit and run poster out to bring his buddies to his computer and parade us around like zoo animals, "Look see how they are treating me, I only wanted to help them".

But the problem is we didn't tell him to go away, we merely told him not to demonize us. And again, I wasn't so much pissed that he made the argument, but pissed that he refused to back it up. If I had a nickle for every time EVEN my face to  face Christian friends have argued, "Well if you don't believe that will lead to Stalin", I'd make Bill Gates look like a street bum. Yes, I was blunt, because if you are going to treat us garbage, you better have damned good evidence to go around making such claims, otherwise you should drop it and move on.

He now cant parade us around like zoo animals because we've even invited him back. The only people who get banned on this site are preachers and spammers, not debaters.

It is a matter of weeding out the intellectually weak, not everyone who disagrees with us. If you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

SO AGAIN, to the Christians reading this AND to OP, if you make an argument, BACK IT UP. What you wont get away with is treating ANY outsider, no matter their label, as garbage simply because they don't buy your personal god claim.

This site has always welcomed believers, but they do have to know this site IS NOT THEIRS and it is not here for them to preach at us. If you post here you are going to hear things you are not used to hearing. To us when we respond to your claims, it is about your claims, nothing more.

ANYONE coming here expecting us to fold out of fear will be severely disappointed. Most of us here once believed to some degree, some deeper than others. ALL OF US HERE, without exception have at least co-workers if not family and friends who do believe. We are not trolls living under a bridge with hunch backs and we will not be treated as such.

He is welcome back, at least from my standpoint as a member only. He  is not welcome to equate us to a monster and simply walk away from his argument. I would advise him if he does come back to drop this absurd argument and present a case for the god he claims to exist without the fallacy of demonizing us.

 

 

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Funny how this moral God

Funny how this moral God could stand by and watch Dahmer
kill and eat other humans. Oh right god did all that before in the Buy-bull.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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ex-minister wrote:Funny how

ex-minister wrote:
Funny how this moral God could stand by and watch Dahmer kill and eat other humans. Oh right god did all that before in the Buy-bull.

Perhaps Dahmer acquired a taste for it from Sunday mass, the body and blood of Christ can be pretty addictive.  Since he's no longer around, next best thing is some other poor bastard that happens to walk by. 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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JCLordKing wrote: If

JCLordKing wrote:
If morality is not grounded by a transcendent standard, a standard that is above all humanity, then it collapses to relativism. 

Morality is simply a human construct, based on human sympathy and pragmatics, which is the result of reconciliation of introspect and retrospect.

The concept of assigning it to something 'supernatural' is an appeal to fantasy, that is only self serving to an agenda outside of the topic of what morality entails.

IOW, theists want to project that individualistic morals are an oxymoron.

JCLordKing wrote:
This concept is not at all difficult to understand...

You're using terms interchangeably.

It's not a concept, at all.

It's a fallacy to claim that morals are not the construct of anything but human deliberation, void of any outside influence.

JCLordKing wrote:
  Jeffrey Dahmer, the serial killer who gained notoriety for eating his victims, understood the connection between God and morality all too well. 

Unless one is living in a vacuum, it would be inevitable to understand what's been rumoured (ad nauseum) by theists.

JCLordKing wrote:
 Dahmer’s father recounted his son’s moral reasoning in a documentary produced in 1996: “If it all happens naturalistically, what’s the need for a God? 

An entirely natural thing to occur among humans.

JCLordKing wrote:
 "Can’t I set my own rules?  Who owns me?  I own myself.”

Questioning the non sequiturs of religious doctrines.

This is a display of average intelligence. AKA Common Sense.

JCLordKing wrote:
 Exactly.  If there is no God, you have no accountability to anyone else at all. 

Completely, knowingly misleading and false.

You're demonstrating intellectual dishonesty, and falsifying known truths.

JCLordKing wrote:
You own yourself and you can do with yourself whatever you please.

This is completely compatible with 'free will'.

JCLordKing wrote:
In an interview in 1994, Dahmer himself explained his thinking.  He wondered that if there were no God and we all came “from the slime,” then “what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?”

The question is often asked by people who are completely benign, proving that 'correlation does not equal causation'.

Your agenda is becoming clearer and clearer, as is the circular reasoning and lack of impartiality and objectivity.

JCLordKing wrote:
He embodied the atheist worldview taken to its logical extremes. 

False.

He chose to express his 'free will', that theists will argue is a power bestowed on him by his creator.

JCLordKing wrote:
You may not like what Dahmer did, but unless you believe in an objective, transcendent moral standard, he didn’t do anything but act unfashionably.

Literally, you are correct.

He broke what theists call a 'commandment'.

 

Just like theists do.

Theists are no better.

 

The point you are driving at, is vacuous, and non sequitur.

 

That's gotta suck...

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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redneF wrote:Literally, you

redneF wrote:

Literally, you are correct.

He broke what theists call a 'commandment'.

 

Just like theists do.

Theists are no better.

 

The point you are driving at, is vacuous, and non sequitur.

 

That's gotta suck...

 

Hehehe, nice work redneF.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Although the 'debate' is

Although the 'debate' is already over. I would like to add that a sociopath can go to heaven if they believe JC is his saviour. So your moral behaviour doesn't have anything to do with it...


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Thunderios wrote:Although

Thunderios wrote:

Although the 'debate' is already over. I would like to add that a sociopath can go to heaven if they believe JC is his saviour. So your moral behaviour doesn't have anything to do with it...

 

  Actually Dahmer did convert to Christianity while in prison.   A Church of Christ  pastor named Roy Ratcliff  published a book about his experience with the cannibalistic  serial killer.  In the end Dahmer got to have his ( human flavored ) cake and eat it too....ie, he enjoyed a prolific career as a serial killer, later a convenient jail house conversion, and then after all that he can waltz right into Paradise as one of God's holy saints.      Justice ?   I don't think so.

"Most people are ass holes." Jesus of Nazareth