Evolution Phobia....

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Evolution Phobia....

Here's an article talking about the resistance of teachers to teaching evolution.

Evolution teaching poor in U.S. high schools

So, we know there are science teachers that don't want to teach evolution...that's there own dang fault...

But it appears that many don't want to because they are scared of the controversy or fear they cannot defend it...Certainly, YEC have no problem defending their position.

Can we blame the US's ignorance or resistance to the fact that it's not being taught in schools? It seems that this is being perpetuated with each generation.

 

 

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Kapkao wrote:What happened

Kapkao wrote:

What happened to being a programmer?

Part time teacher. Smiling


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ubuntuAnyone wrote:Kapkao

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

What happened to being a programmer?

Part time teacher. Smiling

Rhetorical:Who do you suppose has the greatest vested interest in a kid's learning: a) douchebag principal who applied for admin's license and gets paid 10x what he's actually worth b) Politician c) Private business in an industry that can be outsourced d) (decent) Parent

Folks, this really isn't fucking voodoo witch doctor magic -merely common sense. It should be pointed out that until recently, the first two on those list would be all but happy to get a bigger (and bigger. and bigger. and BIIGGGERR) education budget, but in the face of dwindling results and what is portrayed as going to be particularly slow economic recovery, the 'wallet' for luxuries like smartboards, individual computers, and 30 student classrooms is evaporating rapidly.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:mellestad

Kapkao wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Are there any non-compulsory industrialized nations we could use to compare outcomes?  I'm curious about relative social costs/benefits.

No recent example, because the UN declaration of human rights went into effect 1947.

The immediate benefit: vastly improved school system

Cost: lots of idiot teenagers with too much time on their hands (as if that isn't a problem now)

And how is that last bit relate to the subject??

Home schooling cannot be a bulk solution to compensate for a failing public school system, it is too dependent on the amount of time parents have available, their level of education and interest, etc. Individual cases need to be monitored to make sure children are getting an acceptable level of education.

Of course, given well educated and dedicated parents, it can give the kids a superior education, but there still is the question of social skills, etc.

But a quality public school system is the cheapest way to ensure that all kids have the opportunity to learn the basics and have the possibility to get a decent job, and/or start a small business.

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Kapkao wrote:Rhetorical:Who

Kapkao wrote:

Rhetorical:Who do you suppose has the greatest vested interest in a kid's learning: a) douchebag principal who applied for admin's license and gets paid 10x what he's actually worth b) Politician c) Private business in an industry that can be outsourced d) (decent) Parent

Folks, this really isn't fucking voodoo witch doctor magic -merely common sense. It should be pointed out that until recently, the first two on those list would be all but happy to get a bigger (and bigger. and bigger. and BIIGGGERR) education budget, but in the face of dwindling results and what is portrayed as going to be particularly slow economic recovery, the 'wallet' for luxuries like smartboards, individual computers, and 30 student classrooms is evaporating rapidly.

Unfortunately, teachers feel they need this stuff to teach. I was asked once to serve on a committee concerning technology and it's role in education. I was some what of a black sheep because I cited numerous examples were schools had technology but didn't know what to do with it. (In fact, it was me and other nerds in schools that were teaching the teachers how to use it.) I said that sinking money into technology is wasteful... the best investment training teachers to be more effective at what they do withe what they've already got. Some of the teachers (the one's vying for grants) didn't want to here this.... But anyways, I gave my 2 cents.

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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Kapkao wrote: cj wrote: If

Kapkao wrote:

cj wrote:

If all children were home schooled, do you really believe all parents would be well educated and able to cover all subjects?  Any subjects?  A few?  Reading?  Balancing your bank accounts?

Just the parents who give a rats ass about their kids being taught something besides evolution. 

Quote:
Kapkao wrote:

Quote:
There is also geology, chemistry, physics, cosmology, genetics, anatomy and a score of other sciences that are connected to understanding evolution.

In an actually scientifically related field, yes. Thus goes the biggest complaint many kids have with school: (outside of grammar school) "How many useful skills does it teach? Life skills?"

 

So, I'm in the kitchen with my grandson when he was about 11.  Showing him - mixtures vs suspensions vs solutions, the second law of thermodynamics, the chemistry of dish washing, fluid dynamics and chaotic systems in the plumbing - and we don't need science?

This is how you get the dopes we have drive by this forum - don't believe in evolution, don't understand simple medicine, don't understand electricity, don't know how their computer works, but by golly, they are surrounded by miracles and don't need science in their lives.

Dumb asses - you are free to join them at any time, Kap.

The average person -plumbers, especially- have no direct use for science. Thanks for the red herring and personal attacks, though, as well as the strawman in your first sentence above.

 

My point was that it is not just evolution.  And evolution is related to and supported by all those other sciences.  If you don't understand how the sciences are all interconnected, you don't understand any.

The plumber may not understand fluid dynamics intellectually, but he had better understand it intuitively or your bathroom will be a swamp.

I don't see a straw man - as we truly are surrounded by science and technology.  Having some basic understanding of what is going on is essential to dealing with the consequences of our actions.  No, we don't all have to have the equivalent of PhD in every discipline, but we should at least have some concept of why it is important to have ground fault interrupting (gfi) outlets in bathrooms, kitchens, and outdoor outlets.

I can see this is a very important subject for you.  I am not trying to put down home schooled children or their parents.  From my own experience, not all parents are suited for home schooling.  That's me.  I'm not stupid, and cared a lot about my children's education.  But I am completely unsuited to be a teacher.  Anyone's teacher - especially in the sense of creating and implementing an entire curriculum.  Should I have not had children?  I often believe so, though I would have missed out on being a grandparent.

I couldn't find an original study - thanks for those posted - of home schooled vs public schooled.  A lot of quoting of broken links by people selling home schooling supplies.  That isn't very credible.  I would like to see a more detailed break down by economic status and parental education levels before I start to come to definitive conclusions.

Right now, my conclusion is intuitive.  Some parents are excellent home school teachers.  Most are not or would not be.  You might think about how right now, home schoolers are self selected.  They are parents who believe they can do the job.  If every parent had to home school, I believe we might see some very ugly outcomes.  Including an increase in dumb asses.

I was not calling you a dumb ass.  I said you could join the ranks of the dumb asses when and if you wanted to.  Now I sound like Brian37 and I'm not sure that is a good thing.

 

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Kapkao wrote:ubuntuAnyone

Kapkao wrote:

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

What happened to being a programmer?

Part time teacher. Smiling

Rhetorical:Who do you suppose has the greatest vested interest in a kid's learning: a) douchebag principal who applied for admin's license and gets paid 10x what he's actually worth b) Politician c) Private business in an industry that can be outsourced d) (decent) Parent

Folks, this really isn't fucking voodoo witch doctor magic -merely common sense. It should be pointed out that until recently, the first two on those list would be all but happy to get a bigger (and bigger. and bigger. and BIIGGGERR) education budget, but in the face of dwindling results and what is portrayed as going to be particularly slow economic recovery, the 'wallet' for luxuries like smartboards, individual computers, and 30 student classrooms is evaporating rapidly.

Now, now. You can't make a question rhetorical because you probably won't like the answer.

Obviously a decent parent has a vested interest in their kid's education but if a kid is having trouble with algebra would you want him taught by a)his parent who doesn't know or remember how to do it and can't understand the examples supplied in the text or b) someone who has spent a few years learning how to do it and a few more years learning how to impart that information to another person?

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cj wrote:I couldn't find an

cj wrote:

I couldn't find an original study - thanks for those posted - of home schooled vs public schooled.  A lot of quoting of broken links by people selling home schooling supplies.  That isn't very credible.  I would like to see a more detailed break down by economic status and parental education levels before I start to come to definitive conclusions. 

In post 40, one of them has statistics that include what you're looking for.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:cj wrote:I

mellestad wrote:

cj wrote:

I couldn't find an original study - thanks for those posted - of home schooled vs public schooled.  A lot of quoting of broken links by people selling home schooling supplies.  That isn't very credible.  I would like to see a more detailed break down by economic status and parental education levels before I start to come to definitive conclusions. 

In post 40, one of them has statistics that include what you're looking for.

 

Some, but those don't have the related school success vs income or parental education or race, etc.  White, higher education, middle class, one parent not working appears to be the majority of home schoolers.  Overall, home schooled children have higher scores.  Usually, in public schools, white, middle-upper income, one parent at home, higher parental education also correlates with improved achievement.

Sounds to me like if you are white, one parent at home, parents have higher education, middle-upper income, children are more successful - home schooled or public schooled.  Any contrary evidence?

 

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cj wrote:mellestad wrote:cj

cj wrote:

mellestad wrote:

cj wrote:

I couldn't find an original study - thanks for those posted - of home schooled vs public schooled.  A lot of quoting of broken links by people selling home schooling supplies.  That isn't very credible.  I would like to see a more detailed break down by economic status and parental education levels before I start to come to definitive conclusions. 

In post 40, one of them has statistics that include what you're looking for.

 

Some, but those don't have the related school success vs income or parental education or race, etc.  White, higher education, middle class, one parent not working appears to be the majority of home schoolers.  Overall, home schooled children have higher scores.  Usually, in public schools, white, middle-upper income, one parent at home, higher parental education also correlates with improved achievement.

Sounds to me like if you are white, one parent at home, parents have higher education, middle-upper income, children are more successful - home schooled or public schooled.  Any contrary evidence?

 

Oh, gotcha.  That's pretty much what I wanted to know too, but I couldn't find anything.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:cj

mellestad wrote:

cj wrote:

mellestad wrote:

cj wrote:

I couldn't find an original study - thanks for those posted - of home schooled vs public schooled.  A lot of quoting of broken links by people selling home schooling supplies.  That isn't very credible.  I would like to see a more detailed break down by economic status and parental education levels before I start to come to definitive conclusions. 

In post 40, one of them has statistics that include what you're looking for.

 

Some, but those don't have the related school success vs income or parental education or race, etc.  White, higher education, middle class, one parent not working appears to be the majority of home schoolers.  Overall, home schooled children have higher scores.  Usually, in public schools, white, middle-upper income, one parent at home, higher parental education also correlates with improved achievement.

Sounds to me like if you are white, one parent at home, parents have higher education, middle-upper income, children are more successful - home schooled or public schooled.  Any contrary evidence?

 

Oh, gotcha.  That's pretty much what I wanted to know too, but I couldn't find anything.

 

Maybe if one of us run across something like that, we can start a new thread.  It would be interesting to know.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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jcgadfly wrote:Kapkao

jcgadfly wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

What happened to being a programmer?

Part time teacher. Smiling

Rhetorical:Who do you suppose has the greatest vested interest in a kid's learning: a) douchebag principal who applied for admin's license and gets paid 10x what he's actually worth b) Politician c) Private business in an industry that can be outsourced d) (decent) Parent

Folks, this really isn't fucking voodoo witch doctor magic -merely common sense. It should be pointed out that until recently, the first two on those list would be all but happy to get a bigger (and bigger. and bigger. and BIIGGGERR) education budget, but in the face of dwindling results and what is portrayed as going to be particularly slow economic recovery, the 'wallet' for luxuries like smartboards, individual computers, and 30 student classrooms is evaporating rapidly.

Now, now. You can't make a question rhetorical because you probably won't like the answer.

Obviously a decent parent has a vested interest in their kid's education but if a kid is having trouble with algebra would you want him taught by a)his parent who doesn't know or remember how to do it and can't understand the examples supplied in the text or b) someone who has spent a few years learning how to do it and a few more years learning how to impart that information to another person?

I made it rhetorical because I know teachers are also fairly invested in getting their students to learn. In Another words, I foresaw a post like this being inevitable before you even made it. I'm not that wet behind the ears when it comes to discussions like these. I hate for you to have to hear from me, but certain types of people do move in predictable manners.

(I've read this sort of discussion elsewhere)

Now, as we have  seen more and more of in the past 3 decades, "wanting kids to learn" has no overall effect on them learning or not. Because if it did, public schooling wouldn't be behind home schooling. Being the spawn of the "tune in turn on drop out" generation probably isn't helping much, because the 1 word that defines my generation it seems to be "nonconformity" (I'm not that much of a conformist myself, nor have I ever been.) Also, if desire directly equaled results, than "blame the teachers" that a number of politicians seem to advocate, would now be justifiable.

Having parents wanting them to learn, does. (Or so a Brooklyn, NYC teahcer at 'technical High School' a charter school, posted)

because you have students with incompetent, indifferent parents mixing in with caring and (somewhat) competent parents' kids, and because it is a "universal right" it seems that charter schools are the future (because they can choose their students; John McCain apparently found this out after trying out a voucher system in AZ. which had dissapointing results.)

It's ironic, because in my prepubescent years I could have told anyone "separating wheat from chaff" would be step1 towards fixing our broken-ass education system.(even though I don't think I've ever heard that phrase used)

Of course I forsee many gripes of charter schools circumventing article 26 of the declaration of human rights, once non-charter schools fill up with underachievers and bad apples. Good luck with that! I'd hate to be in your shoes in the coming decades

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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 Jumping into the middle of

 Jumping into the middle of the conversation here but I was home-schooled from age 14 on. Even in areas where your parents might be completely lacking in knowledge there is this wonderful thing called the Internet where you can get resources to learn whatever you want. As far as social interaction is concerned, home school groups are pretty much everywhere nowadays where home school children can get together for a variety of things from sports to music to advanced science classes. My social interaction was certainly much more healthy when I was being home schooled than in public school.

 

That being said, I don't think being home schooled is for everyone. People learn in different ways so it makes sense that not everyone is going to benefit in the same education system. Sometimes home schooling is a good answer, sometimes it isn't. For me it was great because I was always curious and capable of seeking out information on my own. My parents actually did very little in managing my education, rather they allowed me to pursue my own interests and encouraged me. I was allowed to manage my own schedule and take off whatever days I desired. Many students simply can't learn with that kind of freedom.

 

Some private/charter schools are great and some are scams. Some public schools are actually pretty good and many suck. The bottom line is that there is no replacement for parents that care enough about their child's education to put the effort into determining what school will be best for their child. Society can't replace that. The only thing we can do is make it as easy as possible for parents to make their choices. That is why I have always been a huge proponent of voucher style programs like in Madison WI. True, some students will end up in bad schools because their parents don't care. But at least the parents who care can provide their children with a good education regardless of their economic status. Put the parents in control of where school funding goes and many if not most parents will put their children in the school that works best for that child.   

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Jumping into the middle of the conversation here but I was home-schooled from age 14 on. Even in areas where your parents might be completely lacking in knowledge there is this wonderful thing called the Internet where you can get resources to learn whatever you want. As far as social interaction is concerned, home school groups are pretty much everywhere nowadays where home school children can get together for a variety of things from sports to music to advanced science classes. My social interaction was certainly much more healthy when I was being home schooled than in public school.

 

That being said, I don't think being home schooled is for everyone.  

 

Neither do I, I merely see it as one of two inevitable outcomes in a system that is deteriorating rapidly. "Oh no, they've started installing metal detectors at my kid's school! We're moving" "The hell with that. It'll take more than a few thugs scare me out of my house I'll jez teach him at home."

It isn't a cure-all, just a probable outcome of a buggered system with no obvious fix in sight.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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BobSpence1 wrote:Kapkao

BobSpence1 wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Are there any non-compulsory industrialized nations we could use to compare outcomes?  I'm curious about relative social costs/benefits.

No recent example, because the UN declaration of human rights went into effect 1947.

The immediate benefit: vastly improved school system

Cost: lots of idiot teenagers with too much time on their hands (as if that isn't a problem now)

Melle wanted to know the "costs and benefits" of home schooling. Although I dooubt I'll find a politician to admit it anytime soon, I suspect that many American politicos see education as an answer to 'how to keep kids out of trouble' and/or from joining organized crime, vandalizing each other's living spaces, and the usual laundry list associated with organized crime. Obviously, if juvenile crime rates go up, there is a predominant culture of secondary education being "daycare for teens"

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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cj wrote: Kapkao wrote: cj

cj wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

cj wrote:

If all children were home schooled, do you really believe all parents would be well educated and able to cover all subjects?  Any subjects?  A few?  Reading?  Balancing your bank accounts?

Just the parents who give a rats ass about their kids being taught something besides evolution. 

Quote:
Kapkao wrote:

Quote:
There is also geology, chemistry, physics, cosmology, genetics, anatomy and a score of other sciences that are connected to understanding evolution.

In an actually scientifically related field, yes. Thus goes the biggest complaint many kids have with school: (outside of grammar school) "How many useful skills does it teach? Life skills?"

 

So, I'm in the kitchen with my grandson when he was about 11.  Showing him - mixtures vs suspensions vs solutions, the second law of thermodynamics, the chemistry of dish washing, fluid dynamics and chaotic systems in the plumbing - and we don't need science?

This is how you get the dopes we have drive by this forum - don't believe in evolution, don't understand simple medicine, don't understand electricity, don't know how their computer works, but by golly, they are surrounded by miracles and don't need science in their lives.

Dumb asses - you are free to join them at any time, Kap.

The average person -plumbers, especially- have no direct use for science. Thanks for the red herring and personal attacks, though, as well as the strawman in your first sentence above.

 

My point was that it is not just evolution.  And evolution is related to and supported by all those other sciences.  If you don't understand how the sciences are all interconnected, you don't understand any.

The plumber may not understand fluid dynamics intellectually, but he had better understand it intuitively or your bathroom will be a swamp.

I don't see a straw man - as we truly are surrounded by science and technology.  Having some basic understanding of what is going on is essential to dealing with the consequences of our actions.  No, we don't all have to have the equivalent of PhD in every discipline, but we should at least have some concept of why it is important to have ground fault interrupting (gfi) outlets in bathrooms, kitchens, and outdoor outlets.

What had anything get fried before during a t-storm?? (or does this gfi stuff refer to protection from something else...electrical?)

I can see this is a very important subject for you.

Not really, I just enjoy social efficiency. (something America has not been good with in the past...

 

Quote:
I was not calling you a dumb ass.  I said you could join the ranks of the dumb asses when and if you wanted to.  Now I sound like Brian37 and I'm not sure that is a good thing.

 

Probably isn't. If there's one thing antitheistss (us) do not want to do is to act in a manner resembling reactionaries, like theistards (and the occasional Poe.Think: "You are either with us, or you are with the terrorists.&quotEye-wink

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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I just want to get one last

I just want to get one last thing out of the way before calling it a night on this thread: do NOT blame the teachers. That'll get you nowhere in a hurry.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:BobSpence1

Kapkao wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Are there any non-compulsory industrialized nations we could use to compare outcomes?  I'm curious about relative social costs/benefits.

No recent example, because the UN declaration of human rights went into effect 1947.

The immediate benefit: vastly improved school system

Cost: lots of idiot teenagers with too much time on their hands (as if that isn't a problem now)

Melle wanted to know the "costs and benefits" of home schooling. Although I dooubt I'll find a politician to admit it anytime soon, I suspect that many American politicos see education as an answer to 'how to keep kids out of trouble' and/or from joining organized crime, vandalizing each other's living spaces, and the usual laundry list associated with organized crime. Obviously, if juvenile crime rates go up, there is a predominant culture of secondary education being "daycare for teens"

Not exactly...what I want to know is what a society would look like using your idealization versus what other industrialized nations experience.  Unless there is a way to show data I'm not willing to move away from a ill-functioning, but still functional, system for the unknown.

 

Another question I thought of:  How do American home schooled kids compare to nations with superior public education systems?  We rank fairly low in our 'bracket'.  Could the problem be less about public education and more about Americans just needing better Public education systems in general, rather than the whole idea being unworkable?

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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A well-run public school

A well-run public school system, of which there are a number of examples around the world, including in my country, despite the efforts of a right-wing federal government (no longer in power) to remove resources from it, is far more socially efficient than a proliferation of private institutions.

I am the product of such a system.

Unfortunately, the deeply-ingrained mistrust of government in the US is self-fulfilling - you get the governments you expect, perhaps deserve, unwilling and/or unable to fix your broken public education system, which will further help the decline of your global competitiveness.

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mellestad wrote:Kapkao

mellestad wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Are there any non-compulsory industrialized nations we could use to compare outcomes?  I'm curious about relative social costs/benefits.

No recent example, because the UN declaration of human rights went into effect 1947.

The immediate benefit: vastly improved school system

Cost: lots of idiot teenagers with too much time on their hands (as if that isn't a problem now)

Melle wanted to know the "costs and benefits" of home schooling. Although I dooubt I'll find a politician to admit it anytime soon, I suspect that many American politicos see education as an answer to 'how to keep kids out of trouble' and/or from joining organized crime, vandalizing each other's living spaces, and the usual laundry list associated with organized crime. Obviously, if juvenile crime rates go up, there is a predominant culture of secondary education being "daycare for teens"

Not exactly...what I want to know is what a society would look like using your idealization versus what other industrialized nations experience.  Unless there is a way to show data I'm not willing to move away from a ill-functioning, but still functional, system for the unknown.

 

Another question I thought of:  How do American home schooled kids compare to nations with superior public education systems?  We rank fairly low in our 'bracket'.  Could the problem be less about public education and more about Americans just needing better Public education systems in general, rather than the whole idea being unworkable?

 

No shit! Wouldn't make a thread about it if everything was peachy.

What I've been told by 'experts(meaning teachers themselves) is that not having a basic policy on who attends what school except for what grades they've attended in the past is culprit # 1. So, when a public school has to accept ALL kids of a certain age and a certain geographical location, and can't turn them back based on attendence record, GPA, conduct record, or any other standard, what you get is the system in place not: a smelly one floating down the drain. They have to take the good students with the bad ones. That's the most significant problem, the other I've heard suggested is "they are expected to do some gen ed in college." Thus, since most kids go on to tertiary, there is this expectance that colllege will remedy whatever problems primary and secondary education shortcomings a student has.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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BobSpence1 wrote:A well-run

BobSpence1 wrote:

A well-run public school system, of which there are a number of examples around the world, including in my country, despite the efforts of a right-wing federal government (no longer in power) to remove resources from it, is far more socially efficient than a proliferation of private institutions.

I am the product of such a system.

Unfortunately, the deeply-ingrained mistrust of government in the US is self-fulfilling - you get the governments you expect, perhaps deserve, unwilling and/or unable to fix your broken public education system, which will further help the decline of your global competitiveness.

Well, then you have problem number #2. A cxomplacent, consumeristic society.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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BobSpence1 wrote:A well-run

BobSpence1 wrote:

A well-run public school system, of which there are a number of examples around the world, including in my country, despite the efforts of a right-wing federal government (no longer in power) to remove resources from it, is far more socially efficient than a proliferation of private institutions.

I am the product of such a system.

Unfortunately, the deeply-ingrained mistrust of government in the US is self-fulfilling - you get the governments you expect, perhaps deserve, unwilling and/or unable to fix your broken public education system, which will further help the decline of your global competitiveness.

I don't believe that it's necessarily a problem with the gov't on the USA that is the problem. There are some examples of schools systems that I believe that work...the key here IMHO, is the teachers. I was fortunate that I was able to be challenged and inspired by some of these men and women. Private, public, and non-traditional methods all have their strengths and weaknesses, but so long as there is incompetency in any given system, they will further perpetuate the problem of incompetency.... Funny...evolution is even at work works here...

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Kapkao wrote:BobSpence1

Kapkao wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

A well-run public school system, of which there are a number of examples around the world, including in my country, despite the efforts of a right-wing federal government (no longer in power) to remove resources from it, is far more socially efficient than a proliferation of private institutions.

I am the product of such a system.

Unfortunately, the deeply-ingrained mistrust of government in the US is self-fulfilling - you get the governments you expect, perhaps deserve, unwilling and/or unable to fix your broken public education system, which will further help the decline of your global competitiveness.

Well, then you have problem number #2. A cxomplacent, consumeristic society.

I agree that we are a consumeristic society. Part of that is the dangerous efficiency of big business to put all their money in marketing and ceos and conflate their prices to attract shareholders. They get government subsidies in tax breaks and loopholes.They do NOTHING to keep jobs here and care nothing about the other two classes.

I worked at a major pizza chain and went through 5 store managers. The first one that left had been there 10 years and got tired of being jiped out of his bonuses.The others quit too for the same reason. NONE of them got fired. All of them were decent hard working people who got fed up with being abused.  They dangle contractual scams in front of the managers which they have NO intent of paying out to squeeze every ounce of work out of them.

One of my other friends worked for a call center  for a dish tv giant and he had the same type of problem. Part of his pay was based on volume but he never got his bonuses no matter even IF he met the quotas they set up.

It is the same type of contractual scams insurance companies set up in "We wont pay for your house fire because you didn't have a racoon in your yard(READ THE FINE PRINT).

The current economy isn't about building anything nor does it have any concern for the welfare of society. It is a selfish economy where the people at the top say, "I am doing fine, what's your problem?"

And as far as tax rates, back in the 50s the so called "golden age" the tax rate was much higher. Higher education was dirt cheep or free in most cases, and we had tons of manufacturing compared to today.

The welfare of the corporate class is destroying our economy.

 

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ubuntuAnyone wrote:I don't

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

I don't believe that it's necessarily a problem with the gov't on the USA that is the problem. There are some examples of schools systems that I believe that work...the key here IMHO, is the teachers. I was fortunate that I was able to be challenged and inspired by some of these men and women. Private, public, and non-traditional methods all have their strengths and weaknesses, but so long as there is incompetency in any given system, they will further perpetuate the problem of incompetency.... Funny...evolution is even at work works here...

I'm not quite so convinced either way.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:BobSpence1

Kapkao wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

A well-run public school system, of which there are a number of examples around the world, including in my country, despite the efforts of a right-wing federal government (no longer in power) to remove resources from it, is far more socially efficient than a proliferation of private institutions.

I am the product of such a system.

Unfortunately, the deeply-ingrained mistrust of government in the US is self-fulfilling - you get the governments you expect, perhaps deserve, unwilling and/or unable to fix your broken public education system, which will further help the decline of your global competitiveness.

Well, then you have problem number #2. A cxomplacent, consumeristic society.

That is another problem with the US, not with the countries that have a more functional public school system.

You guys really know how to f**k up your society.

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BobSpence1 wrote:Kapkao

BobSpence1 wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

A well-run public school system, of which there are a number of examples around the world, including in my country, despite the efforts of a right-wing federal government (no longer in power) to remove resources from it, is far more socially efficient than a proliferation of private institutions.

I am the product of such a system.

Unfortunately, the deeply-ingrained mistrust of government in the US is self-fulfilling - you get the governments you expect, perhaps deserve, unwilling and/or unable to fix your broken public education system, which will further help the decline of your global competitiveness.

Well, then you have problem number #2. A cxomplacent, consumeristic society.

That is another problem with the US, not with the countries that have a more functional public school system.

You guys really know how to f**k up your society.

Feel better, now?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:BobSpence1

Kapkao wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

A well-run public school system, of which there are a number of examples around the world, including in my country, despite the efforts of a right-wing federal government (no longer in power) to remove resources from it, is far more socially efficient than a proliferation of private institutions.

I am the product of such a system.

Unfortunately, the deeply-ingrained mistrust of government in the US is self-fulfilling - you get the governments you expect, perhaps deserve, unwilling and/or unable to fix your broken public education system, which will further help the decline of your global competitiveness.

Well, then you have problem number #2. A cxomplacent, consumeristic society.

That is another problem with the US, not with the countries that have a more functional public school system.

You guys really know how to f**k up your society.

I think if you took a country with our resources and applied our energy towards the benefit of our own society instead of blindly advocating for a blind and somewhat fanatical rugged individualism, you could have the best nation on the planet.  As it is we're best at...well, we have the most guns I guess.  And the most prisoners.  Yay for us.  I'm continually baffled that so many people are blindly patriotic about a system where the richest nation in the world is at the bottom of so many metrics of societal health.

Maybe it is just a legacy of the cold war.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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cj wrote: Maybe if one of

cj wrote:

 

Maybe if one of us run across something like that, we can start a new thread.  It would be interesting to know.

 

I doubt it's even been done because of guys like these

Nah, as quickly as anyone can raise a race card, it's doubtful that anyone would bother in illustrating a gap between two ethnicities. I've got an Idea: let's make some educational statistics comparing L.A. Latinos  and Armenians. See if there isn't gang violence by the end of the week....

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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 Just out of curiosity I

 Just out of curiosity I did a little research and took a look at the TIMMS  (The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study) results and played with the variables for a bit at this website http://nces.ed.gov/timss/idetimss/  One thing I found interesting is that when you compare only children with parents born in the country the US is suddenly competitive with the rest of the western world and incidentally beats Australia's ass in both Math and Science. Which makes sense since we have many immigrants and our education system makes little to no effort to help children who speak languages other than English. 

 

I'm not trying to say the US public education system is great. Just that it might not be as terrible compared to other countries as we have been led to believe. Based on the large gap between students with natural born parents versus students with parents who are immigrants the most obvious solution, if we are solely concerned about test scores, would be to improve the education for bilingual students. (Or reduce immigration)

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X