A Powerful Delusion

Flubber
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A Powerful Delusion

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.

and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness

I've seen this verse used to deny anything from evolution to the moon landing.  Anything that goes against the bible is a delusion sent from God to separate the goats from the sheep.  Through believing the delusion, you're apparently following the anti-christ. 

How can people honestly believe this?  It seems to me like a mind game.  Plus, I thought God couldn't lie.

 


ex-minister
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God never lies except sometimes

Flubber wrote:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.

and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness

I've seen this verse used to deny anything from evolution to the moon landing.  Anything that goes against the bible is a delusion sent from God to separate the goats from the sheep.  Through believing the delusion, you're apparently following the anti-christ. 

How can people honestly believe this?  It seems to me like a mind game.  Plus, I thought God couldn't lie.

 

SAB has the contradictory texts here. Is god a liar or not? Yes and No. Both answers are correct.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/god_lie.html

Just like most biblical topics you get to choose which side you want to be on. There are text supporting both. There aren't more than 10k Christians denominations for nothing.

God can and will break every rule he makes. You can get some Christians to agree to this. Maybe not as blatantly as that, but pretty close to it. They say god is allowed and can do anything he wishes. He makes the rules, he breaks the rules. 

Thou shalt not kill. God freely murders even aborting fetus (2 Samuel 12:13-14 and every text that say that he or his chosen destroyed entire towns or the world, you know fetus were somewhere).

Thou shalt not steal. He tells his people in some instances in the OT to essentially steal the possessions of others (when the left Exodus or destroyed towns).

Thou shalt not commit adultery. He rewards incest (Abraham married his sister, Lot with his daughter and others). One third of God (holy spirit) has sex with Mary thus raping Joseph's wife to have the baby Jesus (another third). This act according to other scripture makes Mary an adultress and it is why was planning on secretly putting her away. He was a better character than God himself. Also, wouldn't God have had some lust in his heart for Mary? She must have been one hot babe. Lots of ancient stories in surrounding cultures of God sleeping with women.

Don't be covetous.  God is a jealous and envious of other gods even though he supposedly is the only one. 

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath"  Meanwhile he engraves these commands on a stone without irony. Also, when he gives Moses instruction on what is to be in the temple. He tells him to create two golden cheribims to stand on each side of the ark of the covenant.

 

"Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee." Jesus dissed his mother a couple of times and even said  "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:16

 

The whole thing about free will & predestination is so contradictory in the Bible. But can how could god be all knowing and yet somehow permit free will - it's magic.

 

Matt 11:23, Jesus said to the city of Capernaum, "If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day."

2 Peter 3:9, meanwhile Peter says "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

Doest thou as I, the almighty saith, not as I doeth. The whole WWJD (what would Jesus do) is really screwed if you look at the  behavior of the Holy Trinity.

If you want a god who is consistent, you have to look elsewhere.

And I know that Christians will lie for their church. Paul told them to. (1 Corinthians 6:1-7)

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


redneF
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ex-minister wrote:  But can

ex-minister wrote:

  But can how could god be all knowing and yet somehow permit free will....

 

That would be counterproductive. Even a 6 yr old can make that distinction.

Which is why it's completely nonsensical for a god to want allow the potential for deviation from his ideals, by allowing such a wide berth of circumstances that would allow it, of he has absolute power to predetermine outcomes.

It's amazing to me that theists would be so lacking in 'WTF???" questions, when it comes to these inconsistencies and self defeating contradictions.

 

It only points to a god that is inept as a 'designer' and 'engineer'.

His 'science' project would get an 'F' by human standards.

 

Not so hot for such a purported 'omnipotent'.

It's one of the most powerful examples of cognitive dissonances to be aware of all these examples of a god, and still be able to reconcile that such a god is to be worshipped and revered.

And he's paranoid!!

I wonder if theists notice how incredibly insecure he is, and what a petulant control freak he attempts to be throughout the scriptures.

By all scripture accounts, he displays insecurity, jealousy, pompousness, self appointed grandeur, double standards, unjustness, terrorism, hatred and malevolence, irrationality, and extreme hate and anger.

 

All the behaviours that we as humans as conditioned to NOT adopt as habits.

Can you say 'Irony'.

 

This conclusively demonsrates an enormous LACK of 'open mindedness' (the very thing that theists allege atheists are guilty of) and 'critical thinking'.

Which brings forth the axiom I learned long ago..... that the most valuable skill one can learn is HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


harleysportster
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redneF wrote:Which brings

redneF wrote:

Which brings forth the axiom I learned long ago..... that the most valuable skill one can learn is HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

 

I like that redneF.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


redneF
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harleysportster wrote:I like

harleysportster wrote:

I like that redneF.

Pass it on...


ex-minister
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redneF wrote:Which brings

redneF wrote:

Which brings forth the axiom I learned long ago..... that the most valuable skill one can learn is HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

 

Yes. I have heard that is all they really need to teach in school. You don't have to worry about evolution. You don't have to worry about showing how illogical religion is. Just teach them the HOW and they will find their own way. That is one great thing about this website. It leads people down that path. Christians are taught not to question things. When they come here they get a big dose of clear thinking.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


redneF
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ex-minister wrote:Yes. I

ex-minister wrote:

Yes. I have heard that is all they really need to teach in school. You don't have to worry about evolution. You don't have to worry about showing how illogical religion is. Just teach them the HOW and they will find their own way. That is one great thing about this website. It leads people down that path. Christians are taught not to question things. When they come here they get a big dose of clear thinking.

Exactly.

One of the largest obstacles in human development and evolution, is the distortion of language. When people use terms interchangeably.

Religion is indoctrinated  into peoples' minds. It is not an education, and should never be described as an education. It is morally bankrupt, and intellectually dishonest to describe an indoctrination as an education.

Religion is indoctrinated as a means to an end. To always come full circle to the inevitable conclusion that all in the universe is the result of a prime mover, and that it is a 'constant' to all questions and problems that may arise in one's mind.

It's an insidiously self confirming (nonsensical) panacea.

 

An individual is being robbed, if they are not given the proper training in developing their own mind to observe things critically, in order to attempt to achieve an understanding with the utmost of independence, certainty, impartiality, compatibility, reliability, predictability, and repeatability.

AKA: Reality

 

Another axiom I like is "Why have your own mind, if you're only to have other people make it up for you?"

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


Flubber
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Also, I've heard quite a few

Also, I've heard quite a few fundamentalists (including a few I know personally) use "Satan" in their arguments.

Why does the Bible contradict itself?  Satandidit

Why doesn't the Bible match up with history?  Satandidit

Why are there fossils that disprove creation?  Satandidit  Why do they date back past 6000 years?  Satandidit

Why is there no proof of demonic possession?  Satan is invisible

Why does the Big Bang theory make more sense than creation?  Satandidit.


And so on.  Using the Bible (yes, look from the inside) or logic, is there any way I can tear this trump card down?  Is there a philosophical term for this sort of thing (sophistry?)


harleysportster
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Flubber wrote:Also, I've

Flubber wrote:

Also, I've heard quite a few fundamentalists (including a few I know personally) use "Satan" in their arguments.

Why does the Bible contradict itself?  Satandidit

Why doesn't the Bible match up with history?  Satandidit

Why are there fossils that disprove creation?  Satandidit  Why do they date back past 6000 years?  Satandidit

Why is there no proof of demonic possession?  Satan is invisible

Why does the Big Bang theory make more sense than creation?  Satandidit.


And so on.  Using the Bible (yes, look from the inside) or logic, is there any way I can tear this trump card down?  Is there a philosophical term for this sort of thing (sophistry?)

Generally speaking, when they attempt that sort of thing with me, the first thing that I start out with is the burden of proof is always upon the person that is making the claim. The default position in the absence of all evidence is non-belief. If they can not provide evidence for their claim, then the claim can be dismissed.

I remind them simply because they have made the assertion the devil did it does not make it so.

I have had people argue with me on scientific points in such a manner. When I mention evolution they get this triumphant look upon their face and say " Well, that is how God did it,". To which I ask them, what proof do you have of that ? What if I tell you that Zeus did it ? Can you prove me wrong ? What if I tell you that aliens did it ? Can you prove me wrong ?

A VERY common mistake that almost all religious people make is the notion that if something can not be proven then we should automatically leap to the assertion that it is true. For example, if they tell me that I can not prove that the god of the bible does not exist and they can not prove he exists,god must exist.  Or they will  try to dodge the issue by saying if neither side can be proven the argument is a wash, which is incorrect.  If something can not be proven then it is totally incorrect to assume that it possibly exists. Would we apply the same type of logic to unicorns, fairies or winged dragons ? If I have never seen a dragon but  there could be a dragon, it does not mean I would automatically believe in the dragon.

To say " God did it" or "Satan did it" is simply a naked unprovable assertion that carries no weight whatsoever.

Not only is there absolutely zero evidence to support the notions of "God did it " or "Satan did it". There are tons of scientific evidence that points to the conclusion that god did NOT do anything nor satan because there are perfectly plausible explanations for everything.

A long time ago, when people witnessed thunderstorms, they believed it was a product of the gods. Today, we know much different because of science. Not only is there zero evidence for a creator there is evidence which refutes a creator.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


redneF
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Flubber wrote:2

Flubber wrote:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.

Or, in the absence of god, the devil has been impersonating god, and mindfcuking you, since day one.

How the fcuk would you know any different?

 

You wouldn't.

Because sheeple rely on 'faith'.

 

Idiots...

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Flubber wrote:Is there a

Flubber wrote:
Is there a philosophical term for this sort of thing (sophistry?)

Sophism is too general, imo.

It's a naked assertion, since there is no evidence for Satan. You can also note that it fails Occam's Razor and has essentially no explanatory power. I mean, it doesn't really give you the answer to any of these questions; the term just becomes a convenient placeholder in lieu of an actual explanation. There might also be an argument from ignorance in there somewhere. E.g. "You can't prove that Satan didn't do it!!!!!111oneone" In this context, Satan is just a placeholder for something the Christian doesn't understand (Satan of the Gaps?), quite similar to how God is sometimes used. E.g. where did the universe come from? Goddidit. How did that little boy survive the car accident? Godditit.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare