Theodicy from happiness

termina
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Theodicy from happiness

Hello there!

 

Many apologists assume :

 

since, to many victims, the experience of distaters and incurrable sickness and serious malformations

doesn't make them less happy as us in the  long term .

(for instance the famous Nick Vujicic who is born without legs nor arms is happy in his life ,though)

then God can't be judged as bad or malevolent, since He also created our ability to hope and feel good  whatever happens.

 

 

What do you think of that theodicy? Is it really convincing?

 


BobSpence
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My first thought is that

My first thought is that that doesn't apply to everyone in such a situation.

And it would be very presumptive to assert that they would not be happier to some degree if there affliction or handicap was removed.

We do have the capacity to adjust, to adapt to circumstances.

It also doesn't address those who are so seriously afflicted that they are totally bed-ridden.

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I don't think depressed

I don't think depressed people are happy. Depression is sort of a disability (although not officially I suppose).

There can be people that are poor/disabled and happy. But many more poor people have to cope with all sorts of hardship and pain.
Besides, why does it imply that since people seem to be suffering equally, God isn't evil? We still suffer...

I don't really know how to respond to this. It just sounds so silly to me...


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termina wrote:Hello

termina wrote:

Hello there!

 

Many apologists assume :

 

since, to many victims, the experience of distaters and incurrable sickness and serious malformations

doesn't make them less happy as us in the  long term .

(for instance the famous Nick Vujicic who is born without legs nor arms is happy in his life ,though)

then God can't be judged as bad or malevolent, since He also created our ability to hope and feel good  whatever happens.

 

 

What do you think of that theodicy? Is it really convincing?

 

 

About 2 years ago now (I'll look up the news reports if you insist), a 5 year old girl was sold by her mother to a man who raped and strangled the baby.

Explain to me how that little girl was "not less happy" in the long term.

So she is joyful in heaven, right?  If god/s/dess wanted her in heaven so much, why didn't s/he/it/they just stop that baby's heart?  What did her torture gain anyone? 

 

 

Jerk.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Yea, the concept relies on

Yea, the concept relies on exceptions to attempt to make a rule.

 

Reality doesn't work that way.  Even if it did, the number of people who wind up with total misery far exceeds the special cases who overcome diversity to find happiness...and most of those happen to live in societies that help them compensate for their disabilities.  An autistic kid in Afghanistan isn't going to have the potential for happiness like an autistic kid born in Germany or Australia.

 

Statistically, if you're dealt a shitty hand in life you're statistically going to be less happy than your less-shitty alternate.

 

 

Really, the whole thing is free will bullshit.  The assumption that we can overcome anything life hands us simply isn't true.  It is demonstrably true that any human can be turned into a broken husk begging for death, willing to do anything to avoid further misery.  The right set of circumstances will make anyone hopeless and pathetic, just like the right set of circumstances can make people happy.  Although, really, happiness isn't as easy as sadness.  Even a super-happy person could be broken, but a person with certain mental disorders or great physical pain is simply fucked, it doesn't matter what you do to help them.

A lot of people use this as a complaint against theism, because this attitude makes people less willing to take action against atrocity.  Somehow, if a victim is miserable it is the victims fault, because they aren't trying hard enough to overcome.  "God never gives us more than we can handle" combined with 'real existence' being the afterlife is a dangerous thing.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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It reminds of another

It reminds of another religious reaction that does happen in some societies, such as parts of Africa, where individuals who suffer some serious defect or misfortune, even those born with defects, are actually shunned, treated very badly, based on the idea that they must have somehow deserved to be so punished by God. This is particularly in traditions that believe in some sort of 'karma', with some sort of previous life.

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termina
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Thank you all for your

Thank you all for your answers.

 

What about the claim that God makes those diseases and distaters in ordrer that we will be patient when they happen to us?

Accordingly, the believers who have always patience and endurance, whatever hardship they get, are virtuous and God will finally reward them,

whereas the believers who are angry with God (and reject His attribute of all-goodness) because of their great misfortune will be punished.

 


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termina wrote:Thank you all

termina wrote:

Thank you all for your answers.

 

What about the claim that God makes those diseases and distaters in ordrer that we will be patient when they happen to us?

Accordingly, the believers who have always patience and endurance, whatever hardship they get, are virtuous and God will finally reward them,

whereas the believers who are angry with God (and reject His attribute of all-goodness) because of their great misfortune will be punished.

 

Will somebody think of the CHILDREN!!!.  So god is just screwing with us to see if we're patient? And if you take all the shit that god dishes then he's going to give you eternal life so he can shit on you eternally?  So God needs to cause suffering so that we may not reject 'His attribute of all-goodness'?  How would we arrive at such an erroneous conclusion, anyone inclined to reason such should surely be dammed to eternal damnation.  

I can see why a dark ages peasant, born into a static class system would be inclined to at least entertain that idea.  I fail to see why any contemporaries would consider that to be anything but ridiculous. 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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You understand!

Ktulu wrote:
How would we arrive at such an erroneous conclusion, anyone inclined to reason such should surely be dammed to eternal damnation. 

That's the point, you're NOT SUPPOSED to reason. Hell, any reasonable terrified sheeple knows that!

This reminds me of a thread Luminon put up months ago when I was still relatively new here about children most likely deserving their birth defects, from some karmic bullshit and the possible ability to learn from it, while I was fucking fuming and spouting horrible (yet fully justified) obscenities at him and that sadistic position.

[EDIT] Added a mistakenly forgotten word!

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termina wrote:Thank you all

termina wrote:

Thank you all for your answers.

 

What about the claim that God makes those diseases and distaters in ordrer that we will be patient when they happen to us?

Accordingly, the believers who have always patience and endurance, whatever hardship they get, are virtuous and God will finally reward them,

whereas the believers who are angry with God (and reject His attribute of all-goodness) because of their great misfortune will be punished.

 

That's sounds an awful lot like a theist grasping at straws to come up with some sort of meaning to the pain.

I was watching an episode on the History Channel of Gangland the other night. One of the current gangmembers spoke about seeing his older brother and father (innocent bystanders in a turf war) shot dead in front of him as a child. He said : That day, I realized that anyone could die at any time without any reason whatsoever.

A powerful line that I have had rammed home to me many times in my life. I have seen some horribly unfair tragedies rain down on people. The thing that seems to give them more grief and pain is the pathetic attempt to try and discern some sort of hidden meaning from all of it.

(I touched upon this in my blog, Why the belief in ultimate purpose was poison for me) .

I have found that my hardships, trials and tribulations in life are not as all-encompassing or earth shattering once I stopped trying to find some sort of "reason" for all of it.

Victor Frankl, author of Man's Search for Meaning, and survivor of a concentration camp, noted how often people in really bad situations crave some sort of reason for their pain. As long as they believe that their pain counts for something, that seemed to be the most important thought to those imprisoned with him in the Nazi Death Camp.

I believe that sort of thinking was bad for me. Today, now that the belief in ultimate purposes and reasons for suffering has been tossed out, I value my life a whole lot more because I know that I am exempt from nothing, deserving of nothing, and can not avoid problems and pain. That is why I enjoy good moments to the fullest and realize that the bad moments are equal opportunity occurrences that happen to everyone.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


termina
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What about you, BobSpence1?

What about you, BobSpence1? What do you think about the latter theodicy from endurance?


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termina wrote:Thank you all

termina wrote:

Thank you all for your answers.

 

What about the claim that God makes those diseases and distaters in ordrer that we will be patient when they happen to us?

Accordingly, the believers who have always patience and endurance, whatever hardship they get, are virtuous and God will finally reward them,

whereas the believers who are angry with God (and reject His attribute of all-goodness) because of their great misfortune will be punished.

 

Am I cruel if a train a dog with kicking and beating?  If I did and the dog was mean and angry after all that torture should I punish it?  The  Theodicy formulation has not been overcome by theists who believe in an omniscient, all good and omnipotent god.  The contemporary possible worlds approach fails. 


 

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New agers in the US do it too

I've seen the same thing happen in the US, particularly among the new agers in their "you create your own reality" idea. If they know someone to whom something truly unfortunate, unpleasant, and just-plain "bad" happens to, they'll shun the person, tell them that "they must have done something to deserve it" (In this or a previous life), and the new ager will refuse to help them in any way because that would be "interfering in their karma". Golly gee. The general empathy intrinsic in any ordinary primate goes against this. Stuff (insert euphemism) happens. People need help, and when fate comes around, someone may help you.

It just gives them some sort of cosmological excuse to not get involved.

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BethK wrote:It just gives

BethK wrote:

It just gives them some sort of cosmological excuse to not get involved.

Religion is a complete copout, of 'personal' behaviour, and intent.

'Don't look at me, for my behaviour, take it up with the Big Guy!"

 

Objective Morals, my fcuking a**.

 

Fcuking pussies...

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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BethK wrote:I've seen the

BethK wrote:

I've seen the same thing happen in the US, particularly among the new agers in their "you create your own reality" idea. If they know someone to whom something truly unfortunate, unpleasant, and just-plain "bad" happens to, they'll shun the person, tell them that "they must have done something to deserve it" (In this or a previous life), and the new ager will refuse to help them in any way because that would be "interfering in their karma". Golly gee. The general empathy intrinsic in any ordinary primate goes against this. Stuff (insert euphemism) happens. People need help, and when fate comes around, someone may help you.

It just gives them some sort of cosmological excuse to not get involved.

Victor Stinger in "The New Atheist" book shows how this pratfall of making excuses is a human trait beyond labels and that even new age types make the same gap fallacy.

He shows that all these so called claims of moral monopolies are conflating labels as being inventions of that particular label. What is really going on is that the label has nothing to do with universal human behavior.

Simply put, things like compassion, making mistakes, hurting others, being kind to others are evolutionary traits and not the invention of a particular label.

Setting up the label as the cure puts the claimant in the wrongful position of selfishness mistaking it as morality.

My atheism, for example, DOES NOT, automatically make me moral. My actions and actions alone are what humans, in reality, use to gauge how they interact with others.

All humans are capable of the same range of human emotions and actions, both good and bad. And none of that range is due to Karma or 4 leaf clovers, or Allah or Jesus. Human behavior is universal and independent of labels.

Unfortunately our species evolved with the flaw of defaulting to placebos more than we have in actually testing our claims to insure quality of data.

It is precisely because evolution does not seek perfection that this flaw exists. Truth is not required to get to the next generation, only reproduction.

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