Pope JP II's been busy...

redneF
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Pope JP II's been busy...

They're getting set to make some headlines with talk of 'miracles' again...

www.digitaljournal.com/article/302579

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


harleysportster
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I've always

I've always wondered at some of these dubious claims of "miracles" that are supposed to defy all scientific explanation.

The Catholic Church has been touting the miracle business for much of it's existence.

As a former Catholic, I realize that it is not a required doctrine of faith to believe in stuff like Lourdes and Fatima, but it was still heavily pushed by the parish priests and Catholic teachers as "miracles that just defied all scientific inquiry". Trouble is, we only had their word it defied all scientific inquiry.

I know that out of the thousands of people that come to Lourdes for instance, there have been only something like 67 or 68 cases that the church was able to place into the "miracle" category. But, as it is so often pointed out, none of these miracles involved amputees growing back their limbs or anything really extreme.

I will say this about Lourdes. I have family members that are still devout Catholics and have paid pilgrimages to that place. Even they were shocked by the mass commercialization of the church over there. There's little vials of holy water, crucifixes, rosaries and every other type of "holy" object for sale in and around that area and that is only a part of it. Not so different from the Catholic Church selling pieces of the one true cross and bits of St. Peter's skull during the Middle Ages.

Same thing with this article crediting the Pope for healing that woman and contributing to the fall of communism, a bit of a giant assertion to make.

However, in spite of several google searches about Lourdes and other miracles, I have had some difficulty finding information that refutes alot of this nonsense.

I do know that analysis of the so-called "healing water of Lourdes" turned up absolutely nothing. Like most claims of miracles, the church hides behind the notion that it must be the "faith in god" that contributes to the healing.

I just wondered if these cliams that are supposed to defy all scientfic explanation are really as mysterious as the Catholic Church pushes them to be. Anyone have any good links or sources about this stuff ?

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Thunderios
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On Lourdes

harleysportster wrote:

I know that out of the thousands of people that come to Lourdes for instance, there have been only something like 67 or 68 cases that the church was able to place into the "miracle" category. But, as it is so often pointed out, none of these miracles involved amputees growing back their limbs or anything really extreme.

I heard that 80 thousands of people a year came to visit, for the past 100 years. That would amount to eight million people. 66 people healed from mysterious diseases (ie diseases that we cannot directly observe, and thus might disappear for other reasons) isn't that special. Especially if you take into account some power-up form of the placebo effect people get when they go to this sanctuary.
 

Quote:
Her claims of healing underwent a meticulous, "serious and objective investigation" which led to the decision that the instantaneous healing was brought about by the intercession of Pope John Paul II to God after his death.

I never knew terminally ill people where objective and extremely reliable. Also I wonder how you would investigate which saint heals you. And forgets all the others of thousands of people who are dying.


 

 


harleysportster
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Thunderios

Thunderios wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

I know that out of the thousands of people that come to Lourdes for instance, there have been only something like 67 or 68 cases that the church was able to place into the "miracle" category. But, as it is so often pointed out, none of these miracles involved amputees growing back their limbs or anything really extreme.

I heard that 80 thousands of people a year came to visit, for the past 100 years. That would amount to eight million people. 66 people healed from mysterious diseases (ie diseases that we cannot directly observe, and thus might disappear for other reasons) isn't that special. Especially if you take into account some power-up form of the placebo effect people get when they go to this sanctuary.
 

Quote:
Her claims of healing underwent a meticulous, "serious and objective investigation" which led to the decision that the instantaneous healing was brought about by the intercession of Pope John Paul II to God after his death.

I never knew terminally ill people where objective and extremely reliable. Also I wonder how you would investigate which saint heals you. And forgets all the others of thousands of people who are dying.
 

 

Good points.

I have used the argument with my own family and with other theists from time to time :  If the water is so miraculous, why isn't everyone healed that is touched by it ? Needless to say, they always fall back on "God works in mysterious ways" replies.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


redneF
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Quote: "God works in

Quote:
 "God works in mysterious ways"  

Translation : "I don't know WTF I'm talkin' 'bout..."

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


harleysportster
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redneF wrote:Quote: "God

redneF wrote:

Quote:
 "God works in mysterious ways"  

Translation : "I don't know WTF I'm talkin' 'bout..."

LOL. Exactly.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Thunderios
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harleysportster wrote:I have

harleysportster wrote:

I have used the argument with my own family and with other theists from time to time :  If the water is so miraculous, why isn't everyone healed that is touched by it ? Needless to say, they always fall back on "God works in mysterious ways" replies.

You can also use the true scotsman fallacy. I would also like to invoke Matthew 8:8 "The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed."
Which means you don't need superstitious BS to get healed. All you need is: (verse 13) "and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour."

Just like the story in John 5:4: "For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."
I mean, I actually believed it when I was little. Wouldn't really rich and ill people have used it. Or at least someone could have written of it...

 


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I had this experience at the Vatican

 

harleysportster wrote:

I will say this about Lourdes. I have family members that are still devout Catholics and have paid pilgrimages to that place. Even they were shocked by the mass commercialization of the church over there. There's little vials of holy water, crucifixes, rosaries and every other type of "holy" object for sale in and around that area and that is only a part of it. Not so different from the Catholic Church selling pieces of the one true cross and bits of St. Peter's skull during the Middle Ages.

 

It's a business pure and simple with none of the austere grandeur you might get in places like Ely Cathedral. Vials of holy water for 15 Euro. Even as a rampant god hater I couldn't believe it.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck