Labels and violence. Az shooting vs political/religious violence.

Brian37
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Labels and violence. Az shooting vs political/religious violence.

First off, to all reading this, no matter their belief, it is always sad to see violence affect society.

This post IS NOT about the problem with evil, so lets keep that a separate issue.

The more I observe life, the more I understand simple human psychology. Life is about resources, be it actual material resources such as food and housing, or mental resources such as support of loved ones and or power. When we have content in having those things to our own perception of what we think we need, we are less likely to act out in violence.

What bothers me, although there are differences between cases of mass violence, the core is the same. Lashing out at others by an individual, or in mass, is a reaction to a real threat or delusion.

Bin Ladin, for example, used his religion, in reality, to get even with his own family who rejected him when he offered to be a military leader. His own narcissism and gap in what he felt he needed lead him to do what he did. By lashing out at Christians and the west, he was creating the very tension and distrust of his family to fill his own selfish desire to have power over others, which he could not get through civil means.

In the case of this individual in AZ, we see the same thing. Here is an oddball who was rejected by the military and rejected by his college, and was isolated in this process with no support to help him deal with his problems.

In both cases, the point that is missed, is that the DELUSION is there, regardless of the mental degree of difference between the two.

The simple logic, even if it comes down to medication, if people have the resources and support in life they need and the self introspection to realize that even when we don't have the resources we think we need, we are less likely to act out in violence.

So while mental illness is considered different than political and or religious violence, the core is the same in the delusion that our resources have been threatened. Combine that with narcissism and mental illness, and this is what happens.

IN BOTH cases delusion leads to violence. One may be more understandable because of mental defect, but both are caused by the perception that we lack power and control and seek it.

I think this is what humanity misses in dealing with political issues and on the individual level, be it gang violence, or mental illness.

It is the simple evolutionary trait of seeking out resources and lashing out when we cant find them. 

Some would call delusion a form of mental defect. I do think that it isn't as much a mental defect as much as it is an evolutionary side affect just like mental illness is. Having a delusion doesn't mean all of you are missing all of your marbles, it just means you have beer goggles on. Whereas if you are flat out bat shit insane and believe that your dog is telling you to kill people, that would be the marbles missing.

Delusion isn't the marbles missing, but narcissism combined with the evolutionary side affect of not knowing how to arrange the marbles to insure quality control of logic. Delusion is merely the product of using bad logic. It doesn't mean your marbles are missing, it merely means you are not arranging them in logical order.

Simply put, fantasy is natural and happens. It is a normal coping mechanism, but we as a species fail to see the difference between reality and a placebo. We fail to see that while a placebo might give us comfort, we still project our own placebos on outsiders.

I think by recognizing this evolutionary side affect, it can help us cope with BOTH mental illness and global religious/political violence.

Dawkins aptly in "The God Delusion" describes the violent reaction of a alpha male bird taken out on a subordinate bird trying to offer the alpha male help.

I don't know that we should put delusion in the mental illness category when both delusion and mental illness are a byproduct of our evolution. Both are natural (meaning they occur at different ratios and degrees, in a given population).

I only see mental illness as Delusion on steroids where the battery cables are wired backwards. Whereas a mere placebo is something humans have always used to flock to like minded people. It is the false perception that if it feeds me and gives me protection, it must not only be good for me, but all others as well.

I think mass delusion leads to things like theocracies and dictatorships, so in that context delusion IS dangerous. But since evolution is not about perfection and we have always been tribal, I think being able to recognize the ability to refrain from projecting our placebos on others, we can better cope without resorting to violence.

I am not saying I am right in this being that I am not a psychologist or neurologist. I am simply saying that in both the case of Bin Ladin, whom we would not call legally insane, but legally a criminal, still has the same thing in common with this lone nutcase who shot the congresswoman.

So why is it we separate the two? Is it wrong to separate the two? Am I right in making the connection between the two, but wrong in calling them different? Is it merely degree of mental illness?

Keep this in mind because believers will call atheism a form of mental illness too. I am not saying they are right. But even if Stalin was an atheist, the problem would be the delusion projected on others, not the atheism itself. The same can be said with religion. Most people today in the west have awareness and empathy for outsiders and will refrain from violence even if they hate what the other is claiming.

To the mental health experts here, where am I right and where am I wrong? We are talking about the similarities in mass violence vs individual violence and their differences. What do they have in common and where are they different?

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


EXC
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Brian37 wrote:First off, to

Brian37 wrote:

First off, to all reading this, no matter their belief, it is always sad to see violence affect society.

Violence affects society? Violence is society.

We have violence because violence works. It's how the Native Americans were forced out. It's how the Mexicans were forced out of Arizona. Guns won the American revolution and the west. So yes it's tragic, but why is anyone surprised and shocked?

And what is a congresswoman anyways? She make the rules for what the men with guns are going to force people to do.

What creates people like this shooter is we live in a competitive society in every way and he was loosing out. Until this changes why be surprised by any of this?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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 The only thing I can think

 The only thing I can think of in regards to this is that maybe now they will actually make gun laws stricter now. Maybe also they'll check on people rejected by the military to make sure they are mentally stable and don't carry an array of weapons and ammo like this.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


Brian37
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EXC wrote:Brian37

EXC wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

First off, to all reading this, no matter their belief, it is always sad to see violence affect society.

Violence affects society? Violence is society.

We have violence because violence works. It's how the Native Americans were forced out. It's how the Mexicans were forced out of Arizona. Guns won the American revolution and the west. So yes it's tragic, but why is anyone surprised and shocked?

And what is a congresswoman anyways? She make the rules for what the men with guns are going to force people to do.

What creates people like this shooter is we live in a competitive society in every way and he was loosing out. Until this changes why be surprised by any of this?

If life is about competition, AND IT IS, and the victors in any human endever, right or wrong, are the ones with the most money and or weapons.

I am not against competition, and in this guy's case, it wasn't only that he was loosing out, he was also mentally ill. Most people who are fail at anything don't do what this guy did, unless it reaches critical mass and you end up having a revolution.

A little inequity in life is fine, it is when it gets lopsided and you combine that with "life is a script" and all about "being a title" rather than being an individual, things like this will happen.

And you cant have anarchy that doesn't work. So this congresswoman IS needed, otherwise you have one of two extreems, Somolia(NO RULES_ or North Korea(NO SAY for those outside the party)

I think this guy was bombarded by his parents and clung to the brass ring utopia, but was also mentally ill.

I myself am dirt poor but it doesn't anger me that some have more than me. I got to the point where I had to stop mesuring myself by what other people do and simply be happy with myself. My only problem is that the GAP is exploding and making it harder, even for the middle class.

But I don't think in this guy's case it was solely about failing out of the military and getting kicked out of college.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
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 The only real difference

 The only real difference is that Bin Laden has a bunch of followers and this idiot apparently didn't. Some people are crazy and crazy people do crazy things. They always have, and they always will, no matter what kind of government structure you have or what kind of weapons are available to them. 


Kevin R Brown
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EXC wrote:Brian37

EXC wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

First off, to all reading this, no matter their belief, it is always sad to see violence affect society.

Violence affects society? Violence is society.

We have violence because violence works. It's how the Native Americans were forced out. It's how the Mexicans were forced out of Arizona. Guns won the American revolution and the west. So yes it's tragic, but why is anyone surprised and shocked?

And what is a congresswoman anyways? She make the rules for what the men with guns are going to force people to do.

What creates people like this shooter is we live in a competitive society in every way and he was loosing out. Until this changes why be surprised by any of this?

EXC, I would point out for the billionth time all the ways in which your Walt Disney grounded education has you distorting history (probably intentionally) and making sweeping generalizations, or how the woman whose works you worship was as much a pill popping fanatic as L. Ron Hubbard, but why fucking bother, right?

 

Yes, Giffords is a congresswoman who's opinion has a direct impact on the law and, by extension, law enforcement. So - what about the crowd of other people Lougher decided he was within his rights to turn the barrel of his gun on? What about the 9 year old girl who is now dead? Was she party to your & Loughner's grand, retarded conspiracy of how The Man is going to come steal all of your things and ship you off to a FEMA labor camp?

 

Fuck you, you Goddamn asshole. You've got it really fucking good and you have ZERO appreciation for any of the things that living in a protected society born out of dreams of a cooperative endeavor for the human species. If you don't like it, ship the fuck out. It's not like the tax man is stopping you from jumping on a plane to buttfuck nowhere where you can see just how applicable your delusions of total autonomy are, as opposed to just stealing from the lower class and complaining that the barons are taking a cut like you're doing right now. 

Giffords isn't out to get you, Obama isn't out to get you, the government isn't trying to poison your water or hypnotize you, nobody gives two fucks about you. I assume your a grown-up, so maybe you should play the part and cease pretending that you must be the center of the planet's attention. 
 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Don't hold it in Kevin, tell

Don't hold it in Kevin, tell us how you really feel about Libertarianism and Ayn Rand.

 

I'm forced to admit reading that was a guilty pleasure.  I am ashamed.  I shall now retreat, to meditate until I can frown disapprovingly absent a tell-tale twinkle in my eye.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


ubuntuAnyone
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Nut Jobs

Brian37 wrote:

To the mental health experts here, where am I right and where am I wrong? We are talking about the similarities in mass violence vs individual violence and their differences. What do they have in common and where are they different?

Historically, it is interesting what people were once considered crazy for. Atheism and Homosexuality were once considered mental illnesses and people would be checked in to mental hospitals if they were to believed to be either or.

One of the worst arguments that indict religion because religious people commit violence against others are bad bad arguments because violence is not necessarily unique to religion -- it can be bread by practically any ideology whether it be self-created (which seems to be the case for our nut job friend in AZ) or some another's ideology such as Stalinism or Islam.... For this reason, I don't think they are necessarily separate...rather I think we're talking about the range of the scope.

Granted, there's a lot of crazy shit out there floating around in people's head, but I don't know that we can go on a which hunt and start labeling anyone who starts to think for himself (for better or worse) as being crazy though.


 

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”