[[challenge to Luminon]] teach me astrology...

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[[challenge to Luminon]] teach me astrology...

 

Luminon wrote:

Hello.

 

Are you ready for questioning your beliefs? Comparing them, turning them inside out, upside down, stretching on a meter, as we would never have seen them, yet seen for thousands times already? Smiling

 

And are you ready for the same thing?

 

I have asked you a bunch of times before to teach me astrology. Thus far, you have retreated into the idea that I can't see what you see.

 

The only thing that I am asking for is that you go through the process of peer review. Basically, you submit your work for public analysis and those who may will look it over. Pretty much, the process amounts to asking other people “does this look right to you?”

 

So what I am asking is that you simply pick one thing that you can explain trivially. What that one thing is shall be is at your discretion. It may even turn out to be wrong by later analysis. However, if there is anything to what you are on about, then you should be able to give me the one thing that can be the start of a conversation.

 

I don't know if it will help but I was born on May 2, 1963. Two times are provided by my recollection. Either 2:30pm or 2:33 pm. I have no clue on daylight savings time at that point, you will have to figure that out for yourself.

 

Also, according to my astronomical software, the hospital is located at 40.7563 and -86.0583 which is Peru Indiana. I can't say that the hospital is in the same place as it was 47 years ago but it seems probable that that much data is good.

 

The ball is in your court. Show me something that is good enough to be worth going further...

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 Do you have stuff for me

 Do you have stuff for me or not?

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I don't know if it will help but I was born on May 2....

 

we have the same birthday, AIG.

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

 

Luminon wrote:

Hello.

 

Are you ready for questioning your beliefs? Comparing them, turning them inside out, upside down, stretching on a meter, as we would never have seen them, yet seen for thousands times already? Smiling

 

And are you ready for the same thing?

 

I have asked you a bunch of times before to teach me astrology. Thus far, you have retreated into the idea that I can't see what you see.

 

The only thing that I am asking for is that you go through the process of peer review. Basically, you submit your work for public analysis and those who may will look it over. Pretty much, the process amounts to asking other people “does this look right to you?”

 

So what I am asking is that you simply pick one thing that you can explain trivially. What that one thing is shall be is at your discretion. It may even turn out to be wrong by later analysis. However, if there is anything to what you are on about, then you should be able to give me the one thing that can be the start of a conversation.

 

I don't know if it will help but I was born on May 2, 1963. Two times are provided by my recollection. Either 2:30pm or 2:33 pm. I have no clue on daylight savings time at that point, you will have to figure that out for yourself.

 

Also, according to my astronomical software, the hospital is located at 40.7563 and -86.0583 which is Peru Indiana.

 

I can't say that the hospital is in the same place as it was 47 years ago but it seems probable that that much data is good.

As far as I am aware, it is sufficient to know the town location.

 

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

The ball is in your court. Show me something that is good enough to be worth going further...

I don't know about Luminon but generally astrologers take days to weeks to draw up and interpret a natal chart, and if you want something contemporary to be going on with then he'll most likely look at your solar return for 2011. This could take a while but I'm interested to see what he comes up with. Have a go Lumi ! Smiling

 

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It is ironic, but Luminon

It is ironic, but Luminon inadvertently listed several important functions of science and skepticism in the original quoted portion...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

And are you ready for the same thing?

From my experience, to be "ready" here means much more than just me, it means lots of people to be ready to give evidence to lots of other people. 

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
 I have asked you a bunch of times before to teach me astrology. Thus far, you have retreated into the idea that I can't see what you see.
I don't remember exactly, but if yes it wasn't a good request. You know what the astrology is about?
1) know yourself 
2) know your horoscope and what it means in astrology (the modern interpretation, the better)
3) know what your horoscope does to you and why, different people react differently to similar horoscopes or aspects. 
4) find out who you are, where do you come from and where are you going.

You see, I don't know you, so I can't know how do you struggle with the SWOTs in various areas of your life that the horoscope contains. Hell, I did not yet live through most of these areas of life. If you want to learn the astrology in an easy and modern way, buy my dad's introductory book. 
You know what is my stage at learning astrology? When I ask friends for their data, I don't ask to discover their secrets, I need some familiar people as a basis to find out something about astrology.

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
 The only thing that I am asking for is that you go through the process of peer review. Basically, you submit your work for public analysis and those who may will look it over. Pretty much, the process amounts to asking other people “does this look right to you?”

 

So what I am asking is that you simply pick one thing that you can explain trivially. What that one thing is shall be is at your discretion. It may even turn out to be wrong by later analysis. However, if there is anything to what you are on about, then you should be able to give me the one thing that can be the start of a conversation.

Hey, I'd actually like to submit for peer review something that is not quite about astrology. Another my hobby is probing into the world of dark matter around and inside us. I have a couple of little bits of information that could be submitted for consideration of someone who understands physics. Some of that may have something to do with biology or neurology. Is that OK with you?

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
 I don't know if it will help but I was born on May 2, 1963. Two times are provided by my recollection. Either 2:30pm or 2:33 pm. I have no clue on daylight savings time at that point, you will have to figure that out for yourself.

 

Also, according to my astronomical software, the hospital is located at 40.7563 and -86.0583 which is Peru Indiana. I can't say that the hospital is in the same place as it was 47 years ago but it seems probable that that much data is good.

 

The ball is in your court. Show me something that is good enough to be worth going further...

Your horoscope is the conundrum and your life is the key. I don't know your life, so I don't know what you do about your horoscope. I don't know if that T-square of yours gives you trouble or if you made a good use of your mystic rectangle formation. That's up to you.

Unless you ask something answerable, for now I can only think of the most general astrologic influence on whole cultures. But still, I think you proverbially cry on a wrong grave, you'd have better to get my dad's book. 

The time is 6 000 years ago. It is the age of Taurus, because our planetary axis is tilted towards the constellation of Taurus For next 2000 years people somehow start worshipping bulls. Specially Egyptians, but not only them, just think of India's cows and certain Jewish incident. Everywhere there are great civilizations and huge complex buildings. All these pyramids, zikkurats, gardens and fortifications. Just in accordance with the Taurus sign.

After that time, there is the age of Aries. There appears the legend of Theseus who went to Creta to kill a monster with a bull head hidden in labyrinth. The bull, symbol of esoteric Taurus age is hidden underground and must be killed, so the new age can begin. This is probably how the corrida tradition started. In Middle East the prophet Moses gathered his tribe, went on mountain to fetch some commandments from God and when they returned he got pissed off, because these Jewish buttheads were worshipping a cow again. And rightfully so, because he had such a new nice new symbol for the upcoming age: the lamb. Lamb sacrifice is quite an important symbol for the next 2000 years, as long as the spring equinox point points in the right constellation. 
No need to say, there are wars everywhere, cities are burned down, Old Testament Jews don't spare their swords. All just like the warlike Aries sign demands.

But here comes another constellation, Pisces. Suddenly there appears an alternative for appeasing God, instead of lamb sacrifice. One special guy gets nailed on a cross, (one of many such) but those who believe in him don't have to sacrifice lambs anymore. He is called Agnus dei, a God's lamb who's an ultimate sacrifice for the sacrifice-lusty Yahweh, if you believe that. Belief, a typically piscean solution. Early Christians start using the fish symbol as theirs, even until today. Obviously, people believe in million various things, but care only for their particular belief. They become separated, individualized into small groups. That is an extreme, but eventually useful development, if they weren't individualistic before. Churches grow everywhere, martyrs appear voluntarily and involuntarily, faith's abound, spread by fire and sword. (the opposite end of axis points to Aries)

And what we have today, after another approximate 2000 years? Belief falls apart, OSN is founded, musical Hair is played, people talk about peace. The previous piscean age of idealism and devotion taught the humanity to devote itself to a cause, so now we have many activists and it is generally considered a good thing to serve a higher ideal, even if this ideal is universal peace, brotherhood, equality, dialogue between religions instead of wars and so on. This is in sharp contrast to the previous separation, sectarianism, chauvinism, hypocrisy, racism, nationalism and exclusive salvations. The qualities valued today are typically aquarian. The Aquarius constellation is a guy pouring water from a jug.
In 1988 in Nairobi, Kenya there appeared a man in white out of nowhere on a religional meeting. He was instantly called Christ by the people and he told them, that he brings a "jug full of blessings." After a time he again disappeared into thin air, as documented by a journalist of Kenya Times. What I see is another guy propagating the astrological symbolism.

The opposite end of axis from the spring point is considered to have an exoteric, outer meaning. In the age almost gone it pointed into Aries, and you know there hardly was a century without a war or dozen of them. Soon this end of axis will point into Taurus again, as it was esoterically in the age of Taurus. In that age it meant sort of a spiritual wealth or wealth gained by spiritual means, you know, all these people sacrificing things to god(s), so he may multiply their profit. But in this age it will rather mean a stabilization of world affairs, a rational, caring economy, downright motherly. It will not be characteristic by aggressive expanding to new markets, violent price manipulation and urging people to consume. It will have a priority to provide people with right food, water, housing, healthcare and so on - but not more than they need, so there will be enough for everyone. 
At the same time, the esoteric point of axis in Aquarius will create a new culture, free, brotherly, intellectual, enlightened and technically very advanced. There is only a danger that humanity might see itself as perfect and blow up a portion of Earth with some too much ambitious project. 
 

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

 Do you have stuff for me or not?

Most of all, I have some big school exams this week. I just finished public finance and social politics remains. 

 

Kapkao wrote:

It is ironic, but Luminon inadvertently listed several important functions of science and skepticism in the original quoted portion...

I know these general principles and I use them when possible, but today's science has a hard time proving tomorrow's science, which is a today's occultism. So for now it sounds pretty much like a prophecy or hypothesis if you want.

 

Eloise wrote:

I don't know about Luminon but generally astrologers take days to weeks to draw up and interpret a natal chart, and if you want something contemporary to be going on with then he'll most likely look at your solar return for 2011. This could take a while but I'm interested to see what he comes up with. Have a go Lumi ! Smiling

Yes, either the horoscope takes that long, or the astrologer is really good and has a personal contact with the client to see what type he is and what he's up to. Intuitive gathering information from the person present is very important, just like experience. After 10 years and 1000+ clients you will see that people keep having the same problems and repeat the same mistakes, then astrology becomes easier. Such an astrologer is then also a professional life style counselor.

I might try it, but the conditions are very unfavorable. There are several ways how to interpret a horoscope according to a type of person. A homeless guy will have different interpretation (and house system) than a common person, individually developing person or someone even greater. I'd have to find out which one AIGS is. My astrologic school is specialized on people on individual level or those who leave the society of commoners for their individual values. 

For example, the prime motivation for a person on the common socially-cultural level is to be Somebody and mean Something in their social hierarchy. It is also partially derived from age. For people like me, even if I'm young the horoscope with Campanus house system for individual level people is something like a better version of me to strive towards. Just as the new astrologic rule says, "the horoscope isn't what you are, it is what you should become."

 

 

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Luminon wrote: Answers in

Luminon wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

 

And are you ready for the same thing?

 

From my experience, to be "ready" here means much more than just me, it means lots of people to be ready to give evidence to lots of other people.

 

OK, count me as in on this game. Seriously, if you have something, then you should be able to relate at least enough to get me really interested.

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
I have asked you a bunch of times before to teach me astrology. Thus far, you have retreated into the idea that I can't see what you see.

 

I don't remember exactly, but if yes it wasn't a good request. You know what the astrology is about?

 

Well, if I really knew what it was about, I would not be asking you now, would I?

 

Perhaps I asked you before in a way that just did not resonate with you. If so, that reflects, at least in part on my lack of knowledge.

 

Luminon wrote:
If you want to learn the astrology in an easy and modern way, buy my dad's introductory book.

 

OK, that might be possible but I need to know what that means.

 

If the book only exists in Czech, then I am dead in the water. If the book is a tiny little thing published by a vanity press company, then it is probably of relatively little use. Against that, I can see that you might not want the title and author out in public because that would be putting info that is too close to your real name on the internet. You should be able to send the the info by PM.

 

Eloise wrote:
I don't know about Luminon but generally astrologers take days to weeks to draw up and interpret a natal chart, and if you want something contemporary to be going on with then he'll most likely look at your solar return for 2011. This could take a while but I'm interested to see what he comes up with. Have a go Lumi ! Smiling

 

Nah, that need not happen. I have a few titles for modern astronomical software at hand. I can tell what was in the sky when/where I was born. It would take a non-zero amount of time to put the data together but an afternoon would be reasonable.

 

To do that, I would need to know just what data has to be gathered. The long list of bodies that have been considered planets at one time counts 13 different bodies. I can list all of them that are in any data set that I have.

 

What I would need to know here is to what degree of precision I have to get the locations. We can run from there.

 

Luminon wrote:
Your horoscope is the conundrum and your life is the key. I don't know your life, so I don't know what you do about your horoscope. I don't know if that T-square of yours gives you trouble or if you made a good use of your mystic rectangle formation. That's up to you.

 

OK, I have no idea what you mean by my T-square or my mystic rectangle. Are you saying that you ran a quick chart and I have those things showing up? And other people may not have them?

 

Or are those general terms that can apply across the board? I would really like to hear from you as far as what I can determine from getting some basic data and seeing where it goes.

 

Heck, I don't know if you even need to know me personally for this. I am sure that I know myself way better than I could ever explain over the internet. However, if you have something more than smoke and mirrors, you should be able to point me in some good directions.

 

Seriously, tell me how to figure out some stuff. We can see what (if anything) follows from basic reason.

 

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Well, if I really knew what it was about, I would not be asking you now, would I?

 

Perhaps I asked you before in a way that just did not resonate with you. If so, that reflects, at least in part on my lack of knowledge.

So, you mean you don't know, and want to know? Well, I really appreciate it, that's a surprise... I will try.

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

If the book only exists in Czech, then I am dead in the water. If the book is a tiny little thing published by a vanity press company, then it is probably of relatively little use. Against that, I can see that you might not want the title and author out in public because that would be putting info that is too close to your real name on the internet. You should be able to send the the info by PM.

All right, I sent you PM. It's of course in English, but only the first book so far. He has ideas and work in progress for a long series of books. But even this first one will do. I don't know how squeamish are you about spending money on a book that an internet guy recommended you. But as you know, Amazon shows you a sample of the  book to read. Please do so, and tell me what you think. He mentions a lot the causal principles of mathemathician Paul Kammerer which describe how astrology works, also his discovery of the Higher Self and many other things. Too much to mention it here.

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
 

OK, I have no idea what you mean by my T-square or my mystic rectangle. Are you saying that you ran a quick chart and I have those things showing up? And other people may not have them?

  Yes, I ran a quick chart with my ZET 9 Lite and looked at your horoscope. You have formations, that means three or more planets connected together by certain special angles between each other. This is quite significant, but I think diffcult to interpret.

All people who were born at the same time have these formations, but they will have them projected into different areas of their life.

For example, yout T-square formation is a triangle with one 90 degree angle. It connects the areas of your life that is 3rd house - the house of communication, learning and study, (Sun) the 9th house, the area of philosophies, ideals and plans, (Neptune) and 6th house, which is the area of work, service and altruism. (Mars) Opposition aspects between 3rd and 9th house (or Gemini and Saggitarius) are very common among rationals and skeptics on this forum, it is an axis of ideologic conflict, between rationality and faith, between science and religion. In short, I would interpret it like "if you poke too much into your co-worker's beliefs and then stand firmly your ground with rationality, you can easily overdo it, intimidate people around (often co-workers) and maybe lose a job." (of course I left out a lot of other aspects for the sake of brevity)

However, if you would make some life progress, the house system of Campanus would apply to you. In which case, it would not be an ideologic conflict between houses 3 and 9, but 2 and 8, that is more like a weighing of values. You know your own value very well, and for the sake of spiritual research don't hesitate to probe into values of others.  It's Neptune (pretty much spiritual planet) in Scorpio (deep transformative/sexual sign) in 8th house (the Scorpio's native house, other people's values, etc). The key here is not just questioning other people, but getting to know them, feel them intuitively, maybe even try a little of their spirituality for yourself. With that solid foundation of Sun in Taurus 2nd house you should be self-conscious enough to try anything, even if you don't agree with that. Anyway, your opinion on spiritual matters might be interesting, looks like it might be one of your weak points (Chiron in Pisces 1st house). This is understandable, if you had it pushed on you from other people. (Chiron opposing Pluto 7th house)

Generally speaking you managed to solve what I wrote over the course of your life, that might give you a great power to overcome obstacles and find new solutions. Of course, I had to guess a little. I don't know for example how the Pluto in 7th house works for you, if it's your willpower at odds with spirituality, or if it's other people's willpower oppresing you, or both alternating in your life. I left out a lot for the sake of brevity.

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
  Or are those general terms that can apply across the board? I would really like to hear from you as far as what I can determine from getting some basic data and seeing where it goes.

 

Heck, I don't know if you even need to know me personally for this. I am sure that I know myself way better than I could ever explain over the internet. However, if you have something more than smoke and mirrors, you should be able to point me in some good directions.

 

Seriously, tell me how to figure out some stuff. We can see what (if anything) follows from basic reason.

Of course I need to know you personally. It all depends on you, how your horoscope works out. Weak people perceive for example, Saturn as a great disaster or nuisance at least, because it limits them. But a wise, disciplined person understands how important limitations are, that they are here to protects us and makes a good use of Saturn's influence.
I can see how your psyche is wired by the aspects and positions, but I don't know how do you use it, if for your advantage or disadvantage. There is certain conservativism in your horoscope, but I don't know if you identify with that, or you should in rather learn that conservativism... You see, I have to guess in these cases, or ask you.

Anyway, if you want to consider the basics, you might as well try what I do. Download ZET 9, install it, put in there your data and coordinates (I had to take your city position from Wikipedia) and look. Most of the displayed aspects reacts on right click that shows a lesser or greater text of interpretations. The interpretation is partial and can't be taken literally or in that context, but I use it to get a general idea of what's going on.

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 I must admit that I have

 I must admit that I have an anecdotal knowledge base of the whole subject.  I'm surprised to see seemingly intelligent people spend so much time and energy on this subject.  I mean no disrespect but at the same time... 'cmmon.  You mean astrology... as in a vague mystical interpretation of astronomy by the ancients... extrapolated to real dollar$ in todays society.  I'm sure that the logic chain of thought has to break down at some point (and very very quickly) upon critical examination of the empirical evidence.  How can you possibly submit something so subjective to peer review?  I would love to be shown evidence of a supernatural order that dictates the future or whatever, but if that turns out to be good 'ole astrology, I will be very sorrily disappointed.  That and I owe the palm reading gypsy at the street corner an apology.

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Ktulu wrote: I must admit

Ktulu wrote:

 I must admit that I have an anecdotal knowledge base of the whole subject.  I'm surprised to see seemingly intelligent people spend so much time and energy on this subject.  I mean no disrespect but at the same time... 'cmmon.  You mean astrology... as in a vague mystical interpretation of astronomy by the ancients... extrapolated to real dollar$ in todays society.  I'm sure that the logic chain of thought has to break down at some point (and very very quickly) upon critical examination of the empirical evidence.  How can you possibly submit something so subjective to peer review?  I would love to be shown evidence of a supernatural order that dictates the future or whatever, but if that turns out to be good 'ole astrology, I will be very sorrily disappointed.  That and I owe the palm reading gypsy at the street corner an apology.

Want evidence? Visit a really good astrologer, near your level of social development. If you're an ordinary person, you'll appreciate concrete interpretations like "your money", "your work", "your stay in hospital, prison or madhouse".

But an astrologer of more advanced social level will interpret the same things like "your self-value",  "the area where you express your altruism and service, usually the work", and "your experience of the transcendental, which if you will not handle it properly, will get you into hospital, prison or madhouse."

 Astrology is not always that vague, it describes very real things that can happen in your life. If you want evidence, visit an astrologer of your intellectual level who can understand you, and ask him not only for general description, but also counseling on your life problems. Demand a concrete advice in comprehensible words, not astrologic jargon. Then APPLY the advice on your life! No excuses, you paid for it, you do it. If your problems will be solved, good, you've got as much evidence as you can have without becoming an astrologer yourself, becoming clairvoyant or revolutionizing the science to understand astrology.

You have to be aware, that average astrologer has tons of empirical evidence, hundreds or thousands of clients who totally fit on the description of their horoscopes. Astrologers just aren't good at paperwork and keeping the database of clients with their personal characteristics aside from the horoscope. They don't have money, time and personnel for that. Also, who is a peer in astrology? There is no standard astrology, there is the medieval school and then more modern up to certain brand-new highly abstract and modern schools, like my dad has.
I'd say it would be possible to evaluate separately some very specific group of people. I mean, like succesful sportsmen, outspoken rational skeptics, religious fanatics, devoted artists, and.... highly esoteric?  occultists.
This will of course need cooperation of astrologers, historians and statisticians to get the results right.

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So the more intelligent you

So the more intelligent you are the more vague they feel they can be because you will add your understanding to whatever they give you?  Interesting.

I am also aware that the "hundreds or thousands of clients who totally fit on the description of their horoscopes" can exchange horoscopes with each other and still totally fit them. If humans can't find patterns, they'll make them.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:So the more

jcgadfly wrote:

So the more intelligent you are the more vague they feel they can be because you will add your understanding to whatever they give you?  Interesting.

Not vague. Abstract. More intelligent people can handle the abstraction. But the purpose of abstraction is to allow the astrologer to specify it on the client. When it comes to problems with sef-value for example, client must tell whether he values himself too much or too little or alternates the two states, or already solved that problem harmoniously by developing a healthy sense of self-value. Without this abstraction the astrologer would be compelled to claim "the client must be like this, must be like that," etc, which is not realistic. There are some stereotypes of "this causes a person to be like that" BUT:

The more socially and personally developed the client is, the less he fits into astrological stereotypes for lower-class people.

jcgadfly wrote:
I am also aware that the "hundreds or thousands of clients who totally fit on the description of their horoscopes" can exchange horoscopes with each other and still totally fit them. If humans can't find patterns, they'll make them.

You mean the clients I presume, not astrologers. And what do you mean by horoscopes? The natal chart (radix) which a layman can't read, or some kind of characteristics of a person written by an astrologer? I don't think a good astrologer would write such thing. Planets impel, don't compel. The horoscope does not say what we are, but what we should learn. Not all people are just like their horoscopes. Instead, they may do exactly the opposite of what they should according to their horoscope, which causes them less or more serious problems, depending on age and social level.

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Luminon wrote:Want evidence?

Luminon wrote:

Want evidence? Visit a really good astrologer, near your level of social development. If you're an ordinary person, you'll appreciate concrete interpretations like "your money", "your work", "your stay in hospital, prison or madhouse".

But an astrologer of more advanced social level will interpret the same things like "your self-value",  "the area where you express your altruism and service, usually the work", and "your experience of the transcendental, which if you will not handle it properly, will get you into hospital, prison or madhouse."

 Astrology is not always that vague, it describes very real things that can happen in your life. If you want evidence, visit an astrologer of your intellectual level who can understand you, and ask him not only for general description, but also counseling on your life problems. Demand a concrete advice in comprehensible words, not astrologic jargon. Then APPLY the advice on your life! No excuses, you paid for it, you do it. If your problems will be solved, good, you've got as much evidence as you can have without becoming an astrologer yourself, becoming clairvoyant or revolutionizing the science to understand astrology.

You have to be aware, that average astrologer has tons of empirical evidence, hundreds or thousands of clients who totally fit on the description of their horoscopes. Astrologers just aren't good at paperwork and keeping the database of clients with their personal characteristics aside from the horoscope. They don't have money, time and personnel for that. Also, who is a peer in astrology? There is no standard astrology, there is the medieval school and then more modern up to certain brand-new highly abstract and modern schools, like my dad has.
I'd say it would be possible to evaluate separately some very specific group of people. I mean, like succesful sportsmen, outspoken rational skeptics, religious fanatics, devoted artists, and.... highly esoteric?  occultists.
This will of course need cooperation of astrologers, historians and statisticians to get the results right.

This topic may have been posted in the wrong form.  Astrology is not a science (Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge&quotEye-wink is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the natural world.).  That being said, what you're describing to me as a "qualified" astrologer sounds to me like an unqualified psychologist/therapist, basing his predictions on cold reading and mystically gained evidence from the arrangement of stars.  

Again, my interest in the topic is amateurish at best.  I have no knowledge of astrology beyond the definition from wikipedia, and I believe (I may be wrong on this) that by using critical thinking I should be able to refute any claim or supporting evidence that an astrologer will put forth.  If an ignoramus such as myself can debunk the "science" of astrology that doesn't say much for it.

This kind of superstitious nonsense (see also homeopathy) and it's acceptance in today's society is part of the intellectual tumor that gives rise to idiocies such as creationists v.s. evolution and the like.  

I have nothing against you "scientifically researching" astronomy, so long as you're honest about it's place in society.  I'm sorry if I came in a bit strong on this one, I'm usually quite rational Smiling.  

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Luminon wrote:jcgadfly

Luminon wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So the more intelligent you are the more vague they feel they can be because you will add your understanding to whatever they give you?  Interesting.

Not vague. Abstract. More intelligent people can handle the abstraction. But the purpose of abstraction is to allow the astrologer to specify it on the client. When it comes to problems with sef-value for example, client must tell whether he values himself too much or too little or alternates the two states, or already solved that problem harmoniously by developing a healthy sense of self-value. Without this abstraction the astrologer would be compelled to claim "the client must be like this, must be like that," etc, which is not realistic. There are some stereotypes of "this causes a person to be like that" BUT:

The more socially and personally developed the client is, the less he fits into astrological stereotypes for lower-class people.

jcgadfly wrote:
I am also aware that the "hundreds or thousands of clients who totally fit on the description of their horoscopes" can exchange horoscopes with each other and still totally fit them. If humans can't find patterns, they'll make them.

You mean the clients I presume, not astrologers. And what do you mean by horoscopes? The natal chart (radix) which a layman can't read, or some kind of characteristics of a person written by an astrologer? I don't think a good astrologer would write such thing. Planets impel, don't compel. The horoscope does not say what we are, but what we should learn. Not all people are just like their horoscopes. Instead, they may do exactly the opposite of what they should according to their horoscope, which causes them less or more serious problems, depending on age and social level.

Seems like a version of cold reading to me. If and astrologer presents something general (or abstract if you will) to the client and the client responds with "Oh that's so me!" or "This isn't right"  the client gives the astrologer information he didn't have to begin with and he adjusts his "prediction" accordingly.

As for the clients' exchanging of horoscopes - I meant the astrologer's interpretation. I believe a good astrologer can not only write such a thing, he can write it so that his client doesn't know that he's getting a load of crap. And if the client is willing to buy what the astrologer says, there will be no deviation from what the astrologer recommends. The stars incline but the astrologer compels.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote: Seems like a

jcgadfly wrote:

Seems like a version of cold reading to me. If and astrologer presents something general (or abstract if you will) to the client and the client responds with "Oh that's so me!" or "This isn't right"  the client gives the astrologer information he didn't have to begin with and he adjusts his "prediction" accordingly.

As for the clients' exchanging of horoscopes - I meant the astrologer's interpretation. I believe a good astrologer can not only write such a thing, he can write it so that his client doesn't know that he's getting a load of crap. And if the client is willing to buy what the astrologer says, there will be no deviation from what the astrologer recommends. The stars incline but the astrologer compels.

Looks like you misunderstand the purpose of astrology. It is not a 'guess who I am' game, neither it is a test of telepathy. Astrologer needs to know his client, whether by cold or hot reading, doesn't matter. The client needs to know something - a solution to his problems or potential problems in various areas of life that he might develop.

People sometimes do not know what they are really like, (typical example - too big or small ego) don't know what they do or what they should do, why are things happening or not happening to them and how they should make the things happen or not happen in the future.

A good astrologer will take all available information and will try to answer. For example, the client asks: "Why do friends leave me alone?" An astrologer looks at the 11th house (area of friends) and says: "Well, you've got the asteroid Chiron there. That marks the place of your old wound from past lives, you will have problems with friends. It's in Gemini, so it will be a lot about communication, do you talk too much?"
The client: "No, I don't. Well, I'm often alone, but when I am with friends then I really like to talk about something interesting once in a while..."
The astrologer: "Something interesting? Well, I see here a trine aspect to Mercury (planet of communication, ruler of Gemini) in Aquarius, which is highly intellectual sign. Don't you think you talk too smart for most of people?"
The client: "Well, I suppose they don't know much about string theory, cellular biology and meditation, but isn't it interesting for them to learn something new?"
The astrologer: "And what if isn't? I see here you've got an inharmonious square aspect from Chiron to Sun. Not only you seem like a weirdo to friends with your Chiron in 11th house, you talk way too smart, you lecture people, you make them feel stupid, and with that Chiron square Sun, that looks like a hidden superiority complex. This Sun is in 8th house, which means that small talk is not enough for you. You want to talk about something deep and meaningful, probe into your friends' feelings and lives, and yet you're about the last person they would allow that."
The client: "Ewww... dammit, you really think so? So that is why, that would explain a lot...  So what can I do to help?"
The astrologer:  "Well, firstly, try to think less. Don't be so intellectual when you're with friends. Try that empathy which Sun Pisces 8th house promises. If they don't feel like listening to a lecture or exposing their inned workings, develop your empathy and stop yourself in time before going on an intellectual rant. Learn the art of small talk, even if you hate it. You will always be sort of strange, but if you handle that Chiron correctly, you might become really good at teaching diffcult subjects, lecturing in an interesting way, and to understand the problems of other weird people. Be more cordial, but always pay attention to what's going on and what are the people up to. Don't space out, you Piscean daydreamer. Don't say weird... I mean, interesting things unless you feel they really want to hear them."
The client: "Eh, well, I will try. Got to think about that. Yeah, last week in pub when I started about Immanuel Kant and then nobody said anything for a while and then they started discussing soccer, that must have been it. I feel like an asshole."
The astrologer: "Good start, keep trying. Together with the rest of horoscope which you'll receive on CD, it's 60 dollars."

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 Lol, you sound like a

 Lol, you sound like a genuinely intelligent individual Luminon, this post cracks me up.  I sympathies with your belief, I have also gone through different periods in my life when I have entertained some ridiculous notion on other.  I wonder what your views on determinism are, and if your current beliefs are rooted in that school of thought?  I'm just fishing here because what you've given us is an example of cold reading that costs 60$.  What I want to know is:

how you arrive at those conclusions scientifically? or how do you justify those conclusions theologically?  

will I get the same "reading"(for lack of a better term) if I wen to two different astrologers? (assuming I gave them the same information)

why do you believe in this stuff? I mean really... have you had an experience that made you a believer? 

The more I read the more fascinated I am with the fact that you seem to honestly believe in astrology.

 

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Ktulu wrote:This topic may

Ktulu wrote:

This topic may have been posted in the wrong form.  Astrology is not a science (Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge&quotEye-wink is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the natural world.).  That being said, what you're describing to me as a "qualified" astrologer sounds to me like an unqualified psychologist/therapist, basing his predictions on cold reading and mystically gained evidence from the arrangement of stars.  

Again, my interest in the topic is amateurish at best.  I have no knowledge of astrology beyond the definition from wikipedia, and I believe (I may be wrong on this) that by using critical thinking I should be able to refute any claim or supporting evidence that an astrologer will put forth.  If an ignoramus such as myself can debunk the "science" of astrology that doesn't say much for it.

This kind of superstitious nonsense (see also homeopathy) and it's acceptance in today's society is part of the intellectual tumor that gives rise to idiocies such as creationists v.s. evolution and the like.  

I have nothing against you "scientifically researching" astronomy, so long as you're honest about it's place in society.  I'm sorry if I came in a bit strong on this one, I'm usually quite rational Smiling.  

Fine, no problem Smiling (you're not too strong on this one, they usually want an objective scientific evidence from me  ) Astrology isn't 'guess who I am' game, but scientific method is. Putting these two together is diffcult. Specially, when astrology is still far from perfection. For millenia people just used thousands of rules "if that then that", without understanding the basic underlying principles. (which is the abstraction I meant earlier) Now there are people like my dad, who re-invent astrology according to modern knowledge.

Aside from mainstream science, there is a lot of what supports astrology. My dad writes about laws of the mathemathician Paul Kammerer that are similar to chaos theory and that describe how astrology works. Then there are alternative views of the world - like aether, higher dimensions, and "esoteric theory of everything" published by Theosophists and elaborated on by later authors. Add to it decades of practical experience with such things that our people have, and the task of developing new astrology becomes possible.

But giving evidence isn't easy. It can only become easy when the science discovers, for example, that dark matter participates on our psyche and that it is charged and propelled by currents of cosmic energy, and that it creates gigantic vortexes stirred by countless rotations of planets. In the moment of birth, the air breathed in, without the shield of mother's body has a specific configuration of dark matter energetic currents and thereby imprints the basics of personality. Of course, the field of Earth plays the greatest role and also a fact if the planet is consciously known or not discovered yet.
Then scientists will take over astrology from medieval school charlatans.
I simplified it a little, but you get the idea. Astrology can give an evidence, but it is personal, statistical and indirect, which is not good enough for scientists. It is however good enough for psychologists or people who need advice.

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Luminon wrote:But giving

Luminon wrote:

But giving evidence isn't easy. It can only become easy when the science discovers, for example, that dark matter participates on our psyche and that it is charged and propelled by currents of cosmic energy, and that it creates gigantic vortexes stirred by countless rotations of planets. In the moment of birth, the air breathed in, without the shield of mother's body has a specific configuration of dark matter energetic currents and thereby imprints the basics of personality. Of course, the field of Earth plays the greatest role and also a fact if the planet is consciously known or not discovered yet.
Then scientists will take over astrology from medieval school charlatans.
I simplified it a little, but you get the idea. Astrology can give an evidence, but it is personal, statistical and indirect, which is not good enough for scientists. It is however good enough for psychologists or people who need advice.

I'm shocked at the amount of effort that has gone into explaining an ancient mystical belief.  It sounds like your dad's book will be a good work of fiction, I just hope that he advertises it as such.  Dark matter is called dark because of our extremely poor understanding of it.  We have nothing but indirect evidence and the fact that our current understanding of galaxy formation makes no sense with observable matter and current understanding of gravity. That doesn't mean we can attribute any properties to it we see fit.  A WIMP is thought to have interaction cross sections about one trillionth the size of a neutron.  A vortex of dark matter the size of the earth concentrated into a cloud the size of an average fart will seem like a gentle breeze at best and probably go undetected.  

You can use Dark Matter and Dark Energy to support any crazy pseudo scientific claim, the difference between you and I is that I can comfortably admit that I don't know enough about them, and wait for more evidence, and you have chosen to include it into an interpretation of astrology on par with creationism.

That's to touch on only one claim, I won't even touch ether and the rest of the things also included because those are all old theories that no longer stand on their own.  I'm really tempted to touch on the chaos theory but my brain's fractal geometrical coefficient is approaching 3 at an alarming rate right now.  I think I need more coffee. 

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Ktulu wrote: Lol, you sound

Ktulu wrote:

 Lol, you sound like a genuinely intelligent individual Luminon, this post cracks me up.  I sympathies with your belief, I have also gone through different periods in my life when I have entertained some ridiculous notion on other.  I wonder what your views on determinism are, and if your current beliefs are rooted in that school of thought?

I don't believe in complete determinism. If there is any plan of existence, it is not an inescapable future, but a desired future, a way of the greatest progress. We should work towards that plan because it is in the best interest of us, the nations, humanity, planet and so on. But shit happens and nobody can predict the future infallibly. Even the determinism itself is just a thought experiment. The purpose of modern astrology is to tell the client who he is, where he's coming from, and what is his future purpose.

Ktulu wrote:
I'm just fishing here because what you've given us is an example of cold reading that costs 60$.  What I want to know is:

how you arrive at those conclusions scientifically? or how do you justify those conclusions theologically? 

We non-scientists perform scientific method mentally. We don't write it down in a protocol, we keep a track of it in our head. Despite of a lack of a written record, we are able to suggest hypotheses, observe, compare the results, make conclusions and alter the hypotheses. We unite into groups or loose fellowships and each one of us is an independent research unit, but we also enhance our results statistically by meeting together and comparing them. We do it for many years and we have results. People who abide by our advice call to us with thanks and send us their friends and family. And then, when a skeptic comes from the outside, he sees no published scientific papers (besides the books we write) and thinks that we weren't doing anything at all Sticking out tongue

As for "theological" justification, we aren't religious. What you probably mean is the theory behind occultism, called esotericism. It is sort of a "theory of everything" focused on evolution of consciousness. When it comes to evolution of the body, we take Darwin's word of it. But as for consciousness, our  philosophy is esotericism. My group is based on the literary work of Theosophic leaders and later post-theosophic authors, plus several independent authors. In total that would be a few dozen books.

Ktulu wrote:
will I get the same "reading"(for lack of a better term) if I wen to two different astrologers? (assuming I gave them the same information)
No, I don't think so. When there are no scientific papers, the quality of service does not drop on zero, as skeptics like to think. Instead it becomes dependent on personal qualities of the provider of service. In this way, you can get a really good and helpful horoscope, if you get a good tip from reliable person on a good astrologer. Their fame spreads through personal acquaitances. If you, for example know a friend/relative who has a serious problem, and then he visits someone who gives a sound advice to solve the problem, you have a first-hand positive reference that even a skeptic should approve.

Of course, quality of a recommendation is directly dependent on critical and observatory abilities of the person providing it. Gullible friends will recommend you anythinig they encounter.

Ktulu wrote:
why do you believe in this stuff? I mean really... have you had an experience that made you a believer?
I have such experiences very often. Some my family members also - and some our family friends too. We are also familiar with national network of people who also have such experiences. The main point is, that all these experiences are not just random, they are like taken straight out of Theosophic textbooks.

We pick our friends carefully. Beyond our carefully chosen circle of friends the experiences of people are still real, but less or more contaminated by a peculiar mixture of credulity, selfishness, corruption, greed, delusion, carelessness, cultism, Faust's deals, lies, half-truths and commercialism of New Age folk.

Ktulu wrote:
The more I read the more fascinated I am with the fact that you seem to honestly believe in astrology. 

My dad is a professional astrologer, which gives me a wonderful opportunity to study it. I read his library, attend his lectures, study my own horoscope, sometimes I amateurishly look at other people's horoscopes, and so on. Not only I have opportunities to see how it works on people, it is also very interesting for me. It's fun, it's about life and it gives opportunity for personal development. I am greatly interested in personal development, self-transformation, changing my vices into virtues on behalf of my future lives and innocent bystanders Smiling

 

Ktulu wrote:

I'm shocked at the amount of effort that has gone into explaining an ancient mystical belief.  It sounds like your dad's book will be a good work of fiction, I just hope that he advertises it as such.  Dark matter is called dark because of our extremely poor understanding of it.  We have nothing but indirect evidence and the fact that our current understanding of galaxy formation makes no sense with observable matter and current understanding of gravity. That doesn't mean we can attribute any properties to it we see fit.  A WIMP is thought to have interaction cross sections about one trillionth the size of a neutron.  A vortex of dark matter the size of the earth concentrated into a cloud the size of an average fart will seem like a gentle breeze at best and probably go undetected. 

Very very interesting. 1 trillionth of neutron size of interaction cross-section, you say? Why it's so, when WIMPs are larger than common particles? How much larger and massive are they? And what indirect evidence do you mean? I personally know only of the bullet cluster observation and recording the 'sound' of it.

In fact, we do not call it dark matter. Our information is, that what Theosophists call etheric matter and dark matter is the same. And etheric world is esoterically somewhat covered subject. Not so well like other subjects, but it is my little obsession I gather information on this subject, esoteric, exoteric, subjective and objective. Would you ever consider that dark matter is tied to our body, specially the nerve and endocrine system? (and specially to the bulky cells of sympathetic nerve system) That it influences our genome? (just reading through it now, it is meant as a metaphor, but what if) That some specially trained or gifted people can see it or touch it?

Ktulu wrote:
You can use Dark Matter and Dark Energy to support any crazy pseudo scientific claim, the difference between you and I is that I can comfortably admit that I don't know enough about them, and wait for more evidence, and you have chosen to include it into an interpretation of astrology on par with creationism.
No, not creationism. Creationism is an empty concept. I'd say instead, on par with M-theory or string theory, we imagine the universe like that, which includes the build of particles. Some people say, and document it with original pictures, texts and schemes, that Theosophists discovered M-theory about 80 years ahead of it. But I don't like to point that out, because the guy who made the website about it also included some religional nonsenses into that.

Ktulu wrote:
That's to touch on only one claim, I won't even touch ether and the rest of the things also included because those are all old theories that no longer stand on their own.  I'm really tempted to touch on the chaos theory but my brain's fractal geometrical coefficient is approaching 3 at an alarming rate right now.  I think I need more coffee. 

Don't worry, all these books including my club's have a foreword that says none of the following should be taken dogmatically or accepted without careful consideration - or rejected without second thought. Basically, they are written for people who can obtain their own evidence. Just leave the chaos theory claim alone, it's Paul Kammerer's Das Gesetz de Serie book and I know very little about it.

That's a lot of text and I don't mind if you take a day of sleep and cauldron of coffee first. Me too, my head feels like a frisbee, twice of its normal size.

 

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Luminon wrote:Very very

Luminon wrote:

Very very interesting. 1 trillionth of neutron size of interaction cross-section, you say? Why it's so, when WIMPs are larger than common particles? How much larger and massive are they? And what indirect evidence do you mean? I personally know only of the bullet cluster observation and recording the 'sound' of it.

 

That value is indirectly derived from experiments attempting to detect it.  And they are indeed larger, so it is believed.  Here's some material to that effect by Chris Mihos.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1996ApJ...462..576D&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf

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 OK, I got the zet 9

 OK, I got the zet 9 software. It is fairly confusing. The way one enters dates and locations is not standard, at least by how we use software here. Past that, I am seeing a whole bunch of different symbols that I don't quite follow. I know that some of them are the classical symbols for planets in ancient text but beyond that, I have not yet teased out much of a perspective..

 

Now, if I got my chart right, then I see that right angle that you were talking about. Actually it looks like there are two right angles that are on top of each other, as there are two things in each of the divisions. Is that anything like what you got for me?

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

 OK, I got the zet 9 software. It is fairly confusing. The way one enters dates and locations is not standard, at least by how we use software here. Past that, I am seeing a whole bunch of different symbols that I don't quite follow. I know that some of them are the classical symbols for planets in ancient text but beyond that, I have not yet teased out much of a perspective..

Yeah, the location is in degrees and minutes, not in decimals, but usually the client's city of birth is just in the database. The date and time typing is a bit clumsy, but you can go around that by direction arrows.
Everything on the chart has descriptions when you put mouse cursor on it and often more menus (including interpretation and description) when you right click on it. So there's no way how can you be confused for long, unless you're a Mac user with no right mouse button.

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
Now, if I got my chart right, then I see that right angle that you were talking about. Actually it looks like there are two right angles that are on top of each other, as there are two things in each of the divisions. Is that anything like what you got for me?

Looks like you've got it right. The most obvious on your horoscope is the crossed rectangle formation, make sure you see it there.
Now, if you right click on almost everything, it gives you an attempt for interpretation or description. In this way you can easily identify most of the weird symbols. It is not humanly or computerly possible to interpret everything in all combinations (and correctly) but from the more exotic pieces, Chiron and Node are described well.

Useful buttons are B (adding new people to database as you know it, make sure you click the save button), T (moving time) and double click on the blank space next to the chart, which brings up lots of important settings.

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