Argument from brain damage VS Soul

termina
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Argument from brain damage VS Soul

 

Hello

 

In the traditionnal concept of the soul, the latter is immaterial and supernatural, and

the famous convoluted grey matter is a mere receptor of orders from the soul to command the physical body.

 

 

                                    Soul           ====(orders)==>       brain         ===(orders)==>         body

 

 

But  we all know that stimulating or damaging certain parts of the brain results in more or less drastic modification of personnality, memory and emotions. By definition, an immaterial soul can't be affected by physical damages.

However, supporters of such dualism claim that it's still possible the sick person, in himself, has the same soul as before

but the damaged transmitter which is his brain misinterprets the sane information and orders sent by his soul

so the change of personnality/behaviour/memories we notice in a person is somehow illusory, in fact he's still aware of himself and of his bad state but cannot intervene to make his body say "I'm fine! I didn't forget such and such things actually! i'm not the zombie-like person you see!"

 

             So are their counter-argument against brain damage argument valid?


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You know, there is the

You know, there is the burden of proof for those who claim anything and the fact that there is not yet definitely known answer.

My experiences and sources say, that brain is pretty much autonomous and the soul does not send every order that the brain carries out. Instead of that, people are rather soulless zombies who study schools, watch TV, work, make children, drink beer, get a midlife crisis, become senile and die.
The soul is a source of higher functions that most of people do not use in their life. For example, geniality, inspiration, intuition, creativity, personal power and charisma, higher forms of clairvoyance and so on.

The link between the person and the soul is not yet properly developed with most of people. We don't need it for survival and enjoying the world, so most of people didn't really develop it in their past incarnations. This can be done quickly only if there is an institution of experts who help each person to develop systematically and individually, according to the personal way of least resistance. That is the best replacement for religion.

To study this mysterious link of brain and soul you need ensouled people, who display some above mentioned character properties. Average person will not suffice, we need to scan the brains of people like geniuses, saints, great leaders, artists, clairvoyants and perhaps my brain would give some clues too. Geniuses use their brain in much different way than common people. Geniality must be studied and methods must be developed how to support it in ordinary people.

In particular, esoteric science of consciousness speaks of 12 brain centres, placed around it symmetrically like pieces of Union Jack. Each of these is centres (they're specified in the related literature) is connected to a "petal" in the 12fold structure of causal body. Furthermore, esoteric science describes the importance of hypophysis, epiphysis, medulla oblongata and so on up to the 12 centres, and their functions as they activate when the person progresses in personal development.

This and much more can be found in esoteric textbooks provided by Alice A. Bailey and the Tibetyan, for example. Any scientist can get them, read them and be prepared for new discoveries in the field in advance. They can know in advance the nature of consciousness. They can also read about etheric planes of matter, that are currently called dark matter. Much of the bodily vitality is determined on etheric level, not dense-material. All that is available for study. It is of course a diffcult study, because these are advanced textbooks and not Eckhart Tolle.

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termina wrote:so the change

termina wrote:

so the change of personnality/behaviour/memories we notice in a person is somehow illusory, in fact he's still aware of himself and of his bad state but cannot intervene to make his body say "I'm fine! I didn't forget such and such things actually! i'm not the zombie-like person you see!"

 

             So are their counter-argument against brain damage argument valid?

So this thing that doesn't really exist is really there, and reality is an illusion ?

I'm not sure how that's even an argument.


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Luminon wrote:It is of

Luminon wrote:
It is of course a diffcult study, because these are advanced textbooks and not Eckhart Tolle.

And the practical applications of such a study would be what exactly ?


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Question

Luminon wrote:

My experiences and sources say, that brain is pretty much autonomous and the soul does not send every order that the brain carries out. Instead of that, people are rather soulless zombies who study schools, watch TV, work, make children, drink beer, get a midlife crisis, become senile and die.
The soul is a source of higher functions that most of people do not use in their life. For example, geniality, inspiration, intuition, creativity, personal power and charisma, higher forms of clairvoyance and so on.

The link between the person and the soul is not yet properly developed with most of people. We don't need it for survival and enjoying the world, so most of people didn't really develop it in their past incarnations. This can be done quickly only if there is an institution of experts who help each person to develop systematically and individually, according to the personal way of least resistance. That is the best replacement for religion.

 

Luminon,

I could be totally wrong here, but if some of the attributes described above for the soul (i.e. creativity and imagination) were to be gravely affected by say, a stroke or impairment of the brain,wouldn't that imply, that if a soul exists, that there would have to be some sort of connection between the mental outlook of the brain and the person's soul ? Granted, you have a point about people not utilizing creativity, intuition and imagination, but how do you necessarily arrive at the conclusion that these particular things stem from a person's soul ? Are you saying that the brain is responsible for more base instincts and the soul is responsible for the more deeper aspects of human nature ? How do you arrive at these conclusions ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Anonymouse wrote:Luminon

Anonymouse wrote:

Luminon wrote:
It is of course a diffcult study, because these are advanced textbooks and not Eckhart Tolle.

And the practical applications of such a study would be what exactly ?

For laymen like me it's just application in daily life and personal development. Or perhaps at work. These textbooks are not easy to read and they really train the reader's attention and intuition. It's not always full of straight answers, but has also suggestions and exercises to train the reader, like school textbooks have after each chapter. People are encouraged to think, to search for their own answers and to test them.

But if an expert would devote a few years to reading these books in spare moments, then the benefit would be greater. That would be advancement in fields of medicine like neurology, psychology, and so on. Furthermore, physicists would get the answer of what the dark matter is, how it is different from normal matter and how it participates on vital processes. (very much) I have personally probed into that and found some interesting answers. For example, why is the dark matter particles have greater mass and yet weaker interaction.
Even scientists need a new ideas and inspiration to search for new discoveries. Such discoveries will necessarily have cultural impact. People's worldview will change, fear of death will be abolished, objective individual meanings of life will be known and institutions will be estabilished to help people with appropriate personal development.

harleysportster wrote:

Luminon,

I could be totally wrong here, but if some of the attributes described above for the soul (i.e. creativity and imagination) were to be gravely affected by say, a stroke or impairment of the brain,wouldn't that imply, that if a soul exists, that there would have to be some sort of connection between the mental outlook of the brain and the person's soul ? Granted, you have a point about people not utilizing creativity, intuition and imagination, but how do you necessarily arrive at the conclusion that these particular things stem from a person's soul ? Are you saying that the brain is responsible for more base instincts and the soul is responsible for the more deeper aspects of human nature ? How do you arrive at these conclusions ?

Connection between the mental outlook of the brain and the person's soul? Well, the connection is better seen in a way how the ego uses the brain, if primitively or masterfully. What is the I that tries to work with brain's internal processes?
An esotericist will say that alongside material brain there is the etheric counterpart of it, with channels, chakras, energy centers and etheric representations of material glands, all that underlies and controls the nerve and endocrine system. This subtle-material system is variously active, organized, synchronized, luminous and responsive to impression from the higher parts of the human being. (the soul etc) In most of people almost not at all.
A neurologist will say, that lower aspects of human nature and primitive parts of brain developed in animal evolution and the esotericist will agree.

The answer on your question is, that I am one of these people who are aware of that. I do perceive my etheric body as my second skin. You can sense beating of your heart, but I can also sense activity of my chakras. You can feel the wind, sun and external objects on your skin, I can also feel streams of etheric substances around, with clarity and precision. And I always could since very early age, much before I learned to read. Only much afterwards I got to books that told me what the chakras n' stuff are. This I take as the earliest proof I have. It is an objective thing, that should be very obvious on scans of brain activity. Fortunately I don't see anything of that, so I can take a shower in peace.

The brain is not a magical machine for creating a meaningful content. Most of people are not very creative, they prefer to follow leaders and ideologies, to watch TV shows, to read books instead of writing them. Hell, I always enjoyed writing essays and wrote them long, while other classmates had no idea what to write about. If the brain receives a content, it comes to logical conclusions according to it or repeats variations of that content. But it usually doesn't create a brand new information that is also meaningful and objectively true without prior knowledge of it.

I sometimes have the opportunity to see how people intuitively receive information that they did not know in advance, they did not think about it before, and so on. There are also historical cases, when inventors or scientists thought about a problem and the answer was given to them in some unusual way. For example, in dream. The soul is unlimited in abstract knowledge (as far as people are concerned), but it is very limited in the means of getting the message across. There are several methods of that, no time of dealing with them now.
Creative people surely know the stream of inspiration, that sometimes comes and they make art.
This may be accompanied by a strange feeling between the eyebrows, (ajna chakra active) or by feeling like having a big soft cap on the head. (sahasrara chakra active)

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Quote:However, supporters of

Quote:
However, supporters of such dualism claim that it's still possible the sick person, in himself, has the same soul as before

but the damaged transmitter which is his brain misinterprets the sane information and orders sent by his soul

Ad hoc.

Ultimately, if we don't have any ability to test for the "soul," it is simply a superfluous concept, a failure of Occam's Razor (a brain controlled by a soul is indisguishable from a brain not controlled by a soul), and like with any other positive claim, if there is no evidence for it, then we should not believe it. The brain does not require some supernatural "spirit" to control it, the same way that the sun does not need some God's hand to hold it up in the sky. We know how these things work, and there is no justification and no explantory power to positing some arbitrary intelligence.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Luminon wrote:That would be

Luminon wrote:
That would be advancement in fields of medicine like neurology, psychology, and so on.

Advancements such as ?


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The idea of an immaterial

The idea of an immaterial 'soul' controlling the brain adds absolutely zero explanatory power to understanding the nature of the mind. 

Matter has attributes that immaterial stuff, or even energy, does not have, the capability of supporting complex processes, because only matter can support persistent complex structures which can in turn support arbitrarily complex processes, such as would be capable of generating awareness and other aspects of a conscious mind.

There is absolutely no reason apart from primitive intuitions to propose that consciousness needs something other than energy flowing through very complex material structures to support it.

We already use such things to produce extremely complex computers, than can beat us at chess, and there is no reason to think that such capabilities have some inherent limit.

There is massive evidence of the intimate connection between structures in the brain and all aspects of personality and consciousness, and there is zero justification for proposing some additional, separate, 'immaterial' component such as the 'soul' being involved.

 

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Luminon wrote:The brain is

Luminon wrote:

The brain is not a magical machine for creating a meaningful content. Most of people are not very creative, they prefer to follow leaders and ideologies, to watch TV shows, to read books instead of writing them. Hell, I always enjoyed writing essays and wrote them long, while other classmates had no idea what to write about.

That doesn't mean they're not creative in another way. Also, what you consider "meaningful content", may be something else.


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Anonymouse wrote:Luminon

Anonymouse wrote:

Luminon wrote:
That would be advancement in fields of medicine like neurology, psychology, and so on.

Advancements such as ?

The psychology shall become one of leading sciences, and the main one to estabilish a new better culture. This culture will be based on peace, simplicity and great increase in quality of life and health. Education will not be meant for job, making money and retiring, but to achieve self-realization in whatever we're good at. (while getting along with others) Such an objective advanced psychology will be needed to recognize most suitable individuals for public offices and other important positions. As I said, this advanced psychology will be used to train people's geniality whenever possible, to make them more intelligent, loving and powerful each according to their individuality. Of course, advanced psychology will eliminate all drug addiction, most of crime, domestic violence, vandalism, and so on.  Cities will be rebuilt to nice shapes and functions, because the effect of hideous urban sprawl on human psyche will be known.

Also, the result will be cracking the case of why shit happens. The laws of the shit happening or not happening in people's lives will be known and utilized to make the shit happen as little as possible. Nobody will then say "shit happens" as a sorry excuse for everything, but "shit happens because of that and that". In past primitive people said "shit happens" when they saw lightning or solar eclipse. But later they understood the principles of that particular shit happening and so it will be in the unconquered area of human life. Art of living, it shall be called.  Smiling

BobSpence1 wrote:

The idea of an immaterial 'soul' controlling the brain adds absolutely zero explanatory power to understanding the nature of the mind. 

Matter has attributes that immaterial stuff, or even energy, does not have, the capability of supporting complex processes, because only matter can support persistent complex structures which can in turn support arbitrarily complex processes, such as would be capable of generating awareness and other aspects of a conscious mind.

The soul is not immaterial. What is materiality? It is a matter of a particular configuration, that interacts with our matter so it is tangible and/or visible to us and our devices. Even if a material particle is bigger and more massive, it does not mean that it will interact more, quite opposite. Even the vacuum itself is, what really gives 90% of the mass to particles like proton, and yet we wouldn't call the vacuum material.

I say that the world consists of multiple configurations of matter, which are mutually almost intangible to each other. The main link that unites them together is a complex life form, human in particular. Such a life form consists of multiple living components that vary according to their degree of consciousness, maturity and autonomity. One of the highest components is here called the soul. From our point of view, it is qualitatively as far away from us as it would be on the geostationary orbit above, so its means of contact are very limited unless the person is specially trained. But instead of ordinary mind, it is a source of the most prized character qualities and personal abilities.

BobSpence1 wrote:
There is absolutely no reason apart from primitive intuitions to propose that consciousness needs something other than energy flowing through very complex material structures to support it.

We already use such things to produce extremely complex computers, than can beat us at chess, and there is no reason to think that such capabilities have some inherent limit.

There is massive evidence of the intimate connection between structures in the brain and all aspects of personality and consciousness, and there is zero justification for proposing some additional, separate, 'immaterial' component such as the 'soul' being involved.

If you study ordinary people, there is indeed no reason for that. But to explain people like geniuses, clairvoyants or me, you can't scan just any brain.

 

Anonymouse wrote:

Luminon wrote:

The brain is not a magical machine for creating a meaningful content. Most of people are not very creative, they prefer to follow leaders and ideologies, to watch TV shows, to read books instead of writing them. Hell, I always enjoyed writing essays and wrote them long, while other classmates had no idea what to write about.

That doesn't mean they're not creative in another way. Also, what you consider "meaningful content", may be something else.

They are of course emotionally creative... sort of. Their emotions have various quality and mostly they're just reactions on external stimuli.

 

A good example of the "meaningful content" I think we may agree upon is a scientific discovery. A computer will not suggest new hypotheses for us, follow them, prove them and receive a Nobel prize.

 

 

 

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Luminon wrote:The psychology

Luminon wrote:
The psychology shall become one of leading sciences, and the main one to estabilish a new better culture. This culture will be based on peace, simplicity and great increase in quality of life and health. Education will not be meant for job, making money and retiring, but to achieve self-realization in whatever we're good at. (while getting along with others) Such an objective advanced psychology will be needed to recognize most suitable individuals for public offices and other important positions. As I said, this advanced psychology will be used to train people's geniality whenever possible, to make them more intelligent, loving and powerful each according to their individuality. Of course, advanced psychology will eliminate all drug addiction, most of crime, domestic violence, vandalism, and so on.  Cities will be rebuilt to nice shapes and functions, because the effect of hideous urban sprawl on human psyche will be known.

Also, the result will be cracking the case of why shit happens. The laws of the shit happening or not happening in people's lives will be known and utilized to make the shit happen as little as possible. Nobody will then say "shit happens" as a sorry excuse for everything, but "shit happens because of that and that". In past primitive people said "shit happens" when they saw lightning or solar eclipse. But later they understood the principles of that particular shit happening and so it will be in the unconquered area of human life. Art of living, it shall be called.  Smiling

But isn't pretty much every cult in existence already selling that ?


Luminon wrote:
They are of course emotionally creative... sort of. Their emotions have various quality and mostly they're just reactions on external stimuli.

Yeah, inferior creatures, the lot of them.

Luminon wrote:
A good example of the "meaningful content" I think we may agree upon is a scientific discovery. A computer will not suggest new hypotheses for us, follow them, prove them and receive a Nobel prize.

Well, if you can produce that kind of meaningful content, go right ahead.


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Anonymouse wrote: But isn't

Anonymouse wrote:
But isn't pretty much every cult in existence already selling that ?
Cults appeal on emotions, rely on a charismatic leader, promise easy, fast and affordable enlightenment, and so on. When examined in depth, they reveal ignorance of politics, economy, finances, life style, relationships and so on, all these things that you have no use for when imprisoned in a cult leader's...communal fenced area.
What I propose is more than enough stuff to study for a few university degrees and it seeks to improve all areas of human activity. It's just too much to say in a few words and make it not sound like a vague cultish propaganda. When I give talks to interested friends on this subject, it usually takes a couple of several hour long sessions until they grasp the basics. It's really better to give them a book, but they're not fond of e-books and English.

 

Anonymouse wrote:
Yeah, inferior creatures, the lot of them.
Yeah, but even they have a potential for improvement and self-realization. And their soul is as good as mine.

Anonymouse wrote:
Well, if you can produce that kind of meaningful content, go right ahead.
Heh Smiling That's not the point, the point is that here is something that human brains can do and computers can't. I don't know if that's a correct term here, but computers always process data according to some algorithm, but brains are non-algorithmical if they try hard enough. There is no algorithm for scientific inquiry, artistic inspiration or business planning - in short - original creativity.

By the way, I do have some scientific hypotheses. They are composed out of my experience, study and processing or comparing vast amounts of data. (the brain is a wonderful pattern-seeking machine, you know) I just learn interesting stuff until something kicks in, some pieces falls together and I stand like whacked on head by the sudden realization. Then I write it down. Furthermore, I received some data by consulting a reliable psychic - succesfully, they support the WIMP theory as I recently suddenly realized. I will probably have to ask some questions about physics, optics and so on... And hope someone will explain it in layman's words, not equations.
Getting some benefit out of this material will probably require to find a scientist who still has a gift of human speech and will be able to translate human speech into terms of physics and back - why this is or isn't possible, Sir.
Plus, I do have a thousand of other interests. I think the science will have to wait until I'm old, rich, famous and respected enough to get someone educated spare a time and lots of good will for me. I hope I won't end up like my president, a politician ridiculed for dabbling into ecology and global warming Smiling

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Luminon wrote:It's just too

Luminon wrote:
It's just too much to say in a few words and make it not sound like a vague cultish propaganda.

Well, at least you know what it sounds like. That's good, I suppose.

Luminon wrote:
When I give talks to interested friends on this subject, it usually takes a couple of several hour long sessions until they grasp the basics. It's really better to give them a book, but they're not fond of e-books and English.

We all know how much vacuous pseudo-mystical mumbo-jumbo gets published each year, so it's not really surprising people aren't eager to take a chance with their free time. I would need to be both very interested and a very good friend of you to let you subject me to "several hour long sessions". Maybe you just have some very good friends.

Luminon wrote:
Yeah, but even they have a potential for improvement and self-realization. And their soul is as good as mine.

How very generous of you. *gentle sarcasm*

Luminon wrote:
Heh Smiling That's not the point,

It kinda was my point, but sure, okay.

Luminon wrote:
There is no algorithm for scientific inquiry, artistic inspiration or business planning - in short - original creativity.

Not yet. Fingers crossed, eh ?

Luminon wrote:
Furthermore, I received some data by consulting a reliable psychic - succesfully, they support the WIMP theory as I recently suddenly realized.

Psychic ? Surely you mean physicist ?

*remembers who he's talking to*

....You don't, do you ? Oh dear.

Luminon wrote:
I will probably have to ask some questions about physics, optics and so on... And hope someone will explain it in layman's words, not equations.

Ask the science people on the forum. Most of them seem willing to dumb stuff down enough for us mere mortals.

Luminon wrote:
I hope I won't end up like my president, a politician ridiculed for dabbling into ecology and global warming Smiling

Just try to not get ridiculed for anything else, k ?


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Anonymouse wrote:We all know

Anonymouse wrote:

We all know how much vacuous pseudo-mystical mumbo-jumbo gets published each year, so it's not really surprising people aren't eager to take a chance with their free time. I would need to be both very interested and a very good friend of you to let you subject me to "several hour long sessions". Maybe you just have some very good friends.

Well, this actually isn't vacuous or pseudo-mystical. It's in a textbook style, that means technical terms are systematically coined, defined, related to each other and to the world. It's a lot of interrelated data to fit into the head at once. Nothing for lazy minds.

Pseudo-mystical mumbo jumbo is usually simplistic and the text is low on definite information. It's easier to read and more popular in new age bookstores. But after reading it leaves you only some vague idea of what was going on in the text and such a warm fuzzy feeling inside, nothing more.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
There is no algorithm for scientific inquiry, artistic inspiration or business planning - in short - original creativity.

Not yet. Fingers crossed, eh ?

You mean, like we can one day build a computer that will fall asleep, have a dream of a devil playing the violin next to the cover case and after waking up the computer will compose a mp3 file? (see the story of the Devil's Thrill sonata) I don't think so, computers work best when they're not in the sleep mode Smiling

Anonymouse wrote:
Psychic ? Surely you mean physicist ?

*remembers who he's talking to*

....You don't, do you ? Oh dear.

Not just any psychic. I consulted my trusted oracle that proved herself infallible so far, (in past 10 years) incorruptible, unbiased (because uninterested and very very busy) and helped me a lot with other issues. So a couple of times I managed to get her to test my ideas about the physics of etheric (dark) matter. I keep these results in mind all the time and recently I found out that they totally agree with WIMP theory.
The limitation is, that this method of testing is rather limited, it really depends if I can ask the right question, ideally with a yes/no answer or a numeric or percentage answer. For example, I questioned a sample of etheric matter at my disposal and I let her test its element composition - according to proton numbers and number of atoms from every found element. The results were most enlightening and puzzling at the same time because of the new possibilities.
Such is the nature of highest and rarest type of clairvoyance. It gives instant answers on almost anything, whatever scientists may search for decades, I'd just need to ask the right questions someone who has a good two-way connection to the almost omniscient Soul. And get a permission for asking, of course.

The natural kingdom that human souls live in is closer than society, the souls are all interconnected. Together they form sort of an "internet" with great deal of wisdom or talents of all kinds. It's just a problem to download the wisdom and give it a concrete form. Yes, no, or numeric scale is the simpliest form, with our limited means.

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Luminon wrote:Well, this

Luminon wrote:
Well, this actually isn't vacuous or pseudo-mystical. It's in a textbook style, that means technical terms are systematically coined, defined, related to each other and to the world. It's a lot of interrelated data to fit into the head at once. Nothing for lazy minds.

Still sounds like scientologists describing their courses.

Luminon wrote:
You mean, like we can one day build a computer that will fall asleep, have a dream of a devil playing the violin next to the cover case and after waking up the computer will compose a mp3 file?

If there's ever a use for such a thing, sure.

Luminon wrote:
Not just any psychic.

Oh good. *full-blown sarcasm*

Luminon wrote:
I consulted my trusted oracle that proved herself infallible so far, (in past 10 years) incorruptible, unbiased (because uninterested and very very busy) and helped me a lot with other issues. So a couple of times I managed to get her to test my ideas about the physics of etheric (dark) matter. I keep these results in mind all the time and recently I found out that they totally agree with WIMP theory.
The limitation is, that this method of testing is rather limited, it really depends if I can ask the right question, ideally with a yes/no answer or a numeric or percentage answer.

Uhm.....*bites tongue*

Luminon wrote:
For example, I questioned a sample of etheric matter at my disposal

You did what now ?

Luminon wrote:
and I let her test its element composition - according to proton numbers and number of atoms from every found element. The results were most enlightening and puzzling at the same time because of the new possibilities.
Such is the nature of highest and rarest type of clairvoyance. It gives instant answers on almost anything, whatever scientists may search for decades, I'd just need to ask the right questions someone who has a good two-way connection to the almost omniscient Soul. And get a permission for asking, of course.

But WIMP theory was already there. The only question that got answered is that you agree with it. So what ?

Luminon wrote:
The natural kingdom that human souls live in is closer than society, the souls are all interconnected. Together they form sort of an "internet" with great deal of wisdom or talents of all kinds. It's just a problem to download the wisdom and give it a concrete form. Yes, no, or numeric scale is the simpliest form, with our limited means.

That kinda stops people asking for next week's lotto numbers, I guess.


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Anonymouse wrote: Still

Anonymouse wrote:
Still sounds like scientologists describing their courses.
Yes, that's because Scientology was written by a sci-fi writer, they create their fictional universes pretty systematic. (OK, I can feel the sarcasm now too) The theory I mean is pretty much about everything. The parts that would interest you the most are probably the sciencey books, psychology and cosmology.
I don't know what aspect would interest you the most... For example, when interpreted by the esoteric theory, the world suddenly starts giving a sense, much of the hidden sense is revealed in obscure religious statements, in evolution, in coming and going of civilizations, in cultural tendencies, in national mentalities, in personal virtues and vices, and so on. As I said, it's pretty much about everything Smiling There is no need to say "shit happens" or "we may never know that",  these books suggest a possible answer on such questions. There are of course seeming paradoxes and complex and boring areas, but as far as I was able to verify, it is correct.

 

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
For example, I questioned a sample of etheric matter at my disposal

You did what now ?

I posed several questions about a specific etheric substance, that has very fascinating properties and is very comfortable for me to obtain and work with. Why and how is that possible, that's a long story and good subject of research. That sample substance would be another good subject of research. I know what elements it's made of and in what proportion.

Luminon wrote:
  But WIMP theory was already there. The only question that got answered is that you agree with it. So what ?
Well, firstly it hinted that my oracle is correct as always and I got a lot of related information of more private and esoteric character. Secondly, I got quite surprised that etheric matter is actually more massive, I thought it is less massive because it feels like that. But at the same time, its electron orbitals reach for a greater distance, its molecular structure is more spaced, so actually objects of the same size may be much less massive than with our atomic density... Thirdly, I can now link my hypotheses to a couple more actual scientific theories and facts. Fourthly, scientists so far don't even dare to think that there is such a thing as atomic and molecular dark matter. They think it's just a whole lot of elementary particles flying around, or something. That too, but we should be most concerned with the biospheres that thrive from dark matter and new technologies that it allows to build.

Anonymouse wrote:
That kinda stops people asking for next week's lotto numbers, I guess.

There are some recorded cases of people who received winning lottery numbers in a dream. Certain rare kinds of dreams are some of the soul's communication methods. Anyway, apart from many ways that such a contact may fail, the soul is responsible for the person. It will generally not do something that would cause the person to become a millionaire and waste his life in endless alcohol, sex and food. The soul wants the person as a tool to explore and control the world. If there is a cooperation estabilished, it will provide the person the means necessary for each new step, never more at the same time. People call this "coincidence" or "divine providence". I have seen it in practice... But it requires a lot of work to set up and wealth received in this way is typically used up in some great altruistic purpose. The one case I remember was, when a monk saw the lottery numbers in a dream, and he needed a lot of money to repair his monastery.

 

 

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You are now entering a

You are now entering a sarcasm free zone.

Honest injun.

Luminon wrote:
Yes, that's because Scientology was written by a sci-fi writer, they create their fictional universes pretty systematic. (OK, I can feel the sarcasm now too) The theory I mean is pretty much about everything. The parts that would interest you the most are probably the sciencey books, psychology and cosmology.

Sciencey, as in not actual science ? Science light ? Typo ?

Luminon wrote:
I don't know what aspect would interest you the most...

Well, what would interest me is if you could make something work, like science can.

Luminon wrote:
For example, when interpreted by the esoteric theory, the world suddenly starts giving a sense, much of the hidden sense is revealed in obscure religious statements, in evolution, in coming and going of civilizations, in cultural tendencies, in national mentalities, in personal virtues and vices, and so on. As I said, it's pretty much about everything Smiling There is no need to say "shit happens" or "we may never know that",  these books suggest a possible answer on such questions. There are of course seeming paradoxes and complex and boring areas, but as far as I was able to verify, it is correct.

But that's just another way of selling the same hot air that religion, cult or mainstream, has been peddling for ages. I am seriously doing my best here, but I still see no way to distinguish you from your competition.

Maybe your brand is simply less succesful ?

Luminon wrote:
I posed several questions about a specific etheric substance, that has very fascinating properties and is very comfortable for me to obtain and work with.

This specific etheric substance, does it actually exist ?

Luminon wrote:
Well, firstly it hinted that my oracle is correct as always and I got a lot of related information of more private and esoteric character.

How hard is it to be correct about a theory that already exists, or about your regular customers for that matter ?

Luminon wrote:
Secondly, I got quite surprised that etheric matter is actually more massive, I thought it is less massive because it feels like that. But at the same time, its electron orbitals reach for a greater distance, its molecular structure is more spaced, so actually objects of the same size may be much less massive than with our atomic density... Thirdly, I can now link my hypotheses to a couple more actual scientific theories and facts. Fourthly, scientists so far don't even dare to think that there is such a thing as atomic and molecular dark matter. They think it's just a whole lot of elementary particles flying around, or something. That too, but we should be most concerned with the biospheres that thrive from dark matter and new technologies that it allows to build.

If you're suggesting you've made some kind of far-reaching scientific discovery, then come right out and say it.

Luminon wrote:
Anyway, apart from many ways that such a contact may fail, the soul is responsible for the person. It will generally not do something that would cause the person to become a millionaire and waste his life in endless alcohol, sex and food.

And yet that happens quite a lot. What's the problem there ? Faulty soul ? Esoteric interference ?

Luminon wrote:
The soul wants the person as a tool to explore and control the world. If there is a cooperation estabilished, it will provide the person the means necessary for each new step, never more at the same time. People call this "coincidence" or "divine providence". I have seen it in practice...

I too have seen coincidence in practice. I have yet to see a "soul" or "divine providence", but I can find plenty of people trying to sell those ideas, and making a good living of it. "Coincidence" doesn't seem to be very marketable.

Luminon wrote:
But it requires a lot of work to set up and wealth received in this way is typically used up in some great altruistic purpose. The one case I remember was, when a monk saw the lottery numbers in a dream, and he needed a lot of money to repair his monastery

And I too have heard many stories no-one could possibly ever verify.


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When I was a theist it was

When I was a theist it was not this order. it was

Body/Brain -> Soul. 

The Soul was more like a copy of the experience and information that when into the body.  Thus preventing this sort of problem as the soul has no impact on the physical person.  Once the body does the connect between the body and soul is removed that connection being the aware part of the process would then only be attached to the soul.

 

I know pretty crazy huh.

Sounds made up...
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Anonymouse wrote:Sciencey,

Anonymouse wrote:

Sciencey, as in not actual science ? Science light ? Typo ?

It is a science of Hierarchy, not ours. For us it is a reading for our consideration only.

Anonymouse wrote:
Well, what would interest me is if you could make something work, like science can.
Me too. Science makes things work through lots of money, technology and experts working on it. Yeah, scientific way is the good way.

Anonymouse wrote:
But that's just another way of selling the same hot air that religion, cult or mainstream, has been peddling for ages. I am seriously doing my best here, but I still see no way to distinguish you from your competition.
Well, as the Tibetyan wrote, the books that I sent out do not demand acceptance. Maybe they are right, truthful and useful, maybe not. It is up to you to verify their truth directly, in practice and through intuition. (...) If this teaching that we pass on will cause a response in enlightened mind of a worker in the world and will fire up his inspiration, then let it be accepted. Otherwise not. If these words will be eventually confirmed and their truth proven by the law of correspondence, then it is all right. But if this will not be so, then let the student does not accept what is said.

Anonymouse wrote:
This specific etheric substance, does it actually exist ?
Sure. A few clairvoyant or sensitive people noticed it around me without me telling them in advance.


Anonymouse wrote:
How hard is it to be correct about a theory that already exists, or about your regular customers for that matter ?
Just as hard as working without technology, funding, or even seeing directly what we're trying to work with.

Anonymouse wrote:
If you're suggesting you've made some kind of far-reaching scientific discovery, then come right out and say it.
Not quite a discovery, rather a field observation. I'd need someone with better equipment to come along with me and capture the phenomenon and pin it down for everyone to see.

Anonymouse wrote:
And yet that happens quite a lot. What's the problem there ? Faulty soul ? Esoteric interference ?
Free will, coincidence, probability, lots of people betting numbers, personal karma and so on. Not a problem at all.

Anonymouse wrote:
I too have seen coincidence in practice. I have yet to see a "soul" or "divine providence", but I can find plenty of people trying to sell those ideas, and making a good living of it. "Coincidence" doesn't seem to be very marketable.
This is not something marketable. People who achieved a lot in their life usually always had some great vision on which they worked. It is therefore good to know exactly what you want, to visualize that life goal and watch out for every opportunity leading towards it. People often don't know what they want, or they don't want anything big. And when yes, they don't visualize the exact form of it happening. And when yes, they miss the opportunities.

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Magus wrote:When I was a

Magus wrote:

When I was a theist it was not this order. it was

Body/Brain -> Soul. 

The Soul was more like a copy of the experience and information that when into the body.  Thus preventing this sort of problem as the soul has no impact on the physical person.  Once the body does the connect between the body and soul is removed that connection being the aware part of the process would then only be attached to the soul.

I know pretty crazy huh.

The experience of the soul is such, that theists rather equate it with Jesus or God, because something so magnificent can not be a higher part of themselves. They think of themselves as an earthly scum barely worth of saving, so they must find another meaning for the word soul. They and most of other people equate the soul with astral body.


 

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Luminon wrote:It is a

Luminon wrote:
It is a science of Hierarchy, not ours. For us it is a reading for our consideration only.

So not science then. Ok.

Luminon wrote:
Me too. Science makes things work through lots of money, technology and experts working on it. Yeah, scientific way is the good way.

Oh come on. There are plenty of impressive science experiments you can do for no money at all, the results of which can be seen by anyone, not just people with "special powers".

Got anything like that ?

Luminon wrote:
  Well, as the Tibetyan wrote, the books that I sent out do not demand acceptance. Maybe they are right, truthful and useful, maybe not. It is up to you to verify their truth directly, in practice and through intuition. (...) If this teaching that we pass on will cause a response in enlightened mind of a worker in the world and will fire up his inspiration, then let it be accepted. Otherwise not. If these words will be eventually confirmed and their truth proven by the law of correspondence, then it is all right. But if this will not be so, then let the student does not accept what is said.

So if this entire book is a load of bull, so be it ? Anyone who keeps reading after that is kind of asking for it.

Luminon wrote:
Sure. A few clairvoyant or sensitive people noticed it around me without me telling them in advance.

Which doesn't prove a blessed thing, as I'm sure you're aware. And I'm guessing that any kind of proof outside your little circle of believers is even harder to come by.

Anonymouse wrote:
How hard is it to be correct about a theory that already exists, or about your regular customers for that matter ?

Luminon wrote:
Just as hard as working without technology, funding, or even seeing directly what we're trying to work with.

Not hard at all then ? Good to hear.

Luminon wrote:
Not quite a discovery, rather a field observation. I'd need someone with better equipment to come along with me and capture the phenomenon and pin it down for everyone to see.

That would help, yeah. Let us know when that happens.

Luminon wrote:
Free will, coincidence, probability, lots of people betting numbers, personal karma and so on. Not a problem at all.

It is if you think you need this whole "soul" concept to explain anything at all.

Luminon wrote:
This is not something marketable. People who achieved a lot in their life usually always had some great vision on which they worked. It is therefore good to know exactly what you want, to visualize that life goal and watch out for every opportunity leading towards it. People often don't know what they want, or they don't want anything big. And when yes, they don't visualize the exact form of it happening. And when yes, they miss the opportunities.

I can do all that with my brain, so why keep bringing up that "soul" thing ?


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Anonymouse, it looks like

Anonymouse, it looks like you're not really interested in the discussion. You don't argue seriously, you don't stick with the point, and you don't try to learn more about the subject.

Anonymouse wrote:
So not science then. Ok.
Not a science for those who didn't yet put it into practice.

Anonymouse wrote:
Oh come on. There are plenty of impressive science experiments you can do for no money at all, the results of which can be seen by anyone, not just people with "special powers".

Got anything like that ?

Hey, this is basically about dark matter and things even much more subtle and unseen than dark matter. Some scientific experiments are simple, but some require huge particle colliders, underground labs and space telescopes. Guess which one we're talking about?
You're an American, I guess. In that case you live closer to James DeMeo and Orgone biophysical research lab in Oregon. You  could arrange a meeting and see the evidence of biologic dark matter for yourself. You could even possibly attend an Orgonomy conference in 2011.
This of course does not prove the soul. This only proves the existence of etheric double, an etheric-physical counterpart of our body that usually does not move around much. But it is a beginning, a proof that *something* like that exists and that this line of research is correct.
But you won't see the evidence by asking an unemployed student from post-Soviet country across the sea. If a professional researcher would hire me for 3 months in the summer to research such phenomena, I'd be glad to help.

Anonymouse wrote:
 So if this entire book is a load of bull, so be it ? Anyone who keeps reading after that is kind of asking for it.
If a book is a load of bullshit, authors usually try to cover it by convincing the readers' feelings. Here the author only shows that he plays a fair game with the reader. There is no "God wrote this, so obey" in the foreword.

Anonymouse wrote:
Which doesn't prove a blessed thing, as I'm sure you're aware. And I'm guessing that any kind of proof outside your little circle of believers is even harder to come by.
There is no little circle of believers. We are not believers, belief is worthless and we're too busy for something that doesn't work. We have a wide network of independent people across the region and state, and we ocassionally use each others' services. Yes, and it is a proof, for those involved. Evidence is evidence, no matter how many people were there to see it.

Anonymouse wrote:
That would help, yeah. Let us know when that happens.
I'll put you to the list of passive consumers of evidence who did not help at all. Those will probably have an extra pay.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
Free will, coincidence, probability, lots of people betting numbers, personal karma and so on. Not a problem at all.

It is if you think you need this whole "soul" concept to explain anything at all.

Whether someone does or doesn't win lottery has nothing to do with the soul. People instead use the soul influence to conquer their vices and develop their virtues of character. They use it to have an influence on the people around, to have their way whether for good or bad. None of those people bothered with studying a psychology, body language and so on, they are impressive on their own.

Anonymouse wrote:
I can do all that with my brain, so why keep bringing up that "soul" thing ?
And are you actually doing it and does it work? Some evidence, please.
Anyway, you can not be sure of the soul's existence, until you experience it. That is a very impressive, mystical experience. If some scientists would have this, I'm sure they would search for the cause. This is not what people normally have. Science does not yet know of the soul, because people contacting it are so few. And yet, in there is probably the ancient reason why people start mystical sects, why they meditate and write obscure texts with hidden meaning which is decipherable only by those with a particular experience.

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Luminon wrote:Anonymouse, it

Luminon wrote:
Anonymouse, it looks like you're not really interested in the discussion. You don't argue seriously, you don't stick with the point, and you don't try to learn more about the subject.

I'm just trying to find out if there's a subject here at all. There are way too many fields of psuedo-science out there, and I'm not too smart to fall for one of them, so it pays to be careful.

So if me being careful gets on your nerves, well....that just makes me even more careful.

Luminon wrote:
Not a science for those who didn't yet put it into practice.

Science is supposed to work for everybody. Nobody needs special training to watch an electric lightsource.

Luminon wrote:
Hey, this is basically about dark matter and things even much more subtle and unseen than dark matter. Some scientific experiments are simple, but some require huge particle colliders, underground labs and space telescopes. Guess which one we're talking about?

Now who's not arguing seriously ? I just specifically asked you for a cheap experiment to demonstrate any of the things you were talking about. Not just your black matter ideas. Anything you ever talked about here. Are you telling me there's no way ?

And are you now going to blame me for finding that very convenient indeed ?

Luminon wrote:
You're an American, I guess.

You guess wrong. So much for sensitivity. (Okay, that's a cheap shot. Apologies. )

Luminon wrote:
In that case you live closer to James DeMeo and Orgone biophysical research lab in Oregon. You  could arrange a meeting and see the evidence of biologic dark matter for yourself. You could even possibly attend an Orgonomy conference in 2011.

And yet with all the tech at their disposal, only orgonomists can detect a bion. And only "trained professionals" can use an E-meter. Same problem.

Luminon wrote:
This of course does not prove the soul. This only proves the existence of etheric double, an etheric-physical counterpart of our body that usually does not move around much. But it is a beginning, a proof that *something* like that exists and that this line of research is correct.
But you won't see the evidence by asking an unemployed student from post-Soviet country across the sea. If a professional researcher would hire me for 3 months in the summer to research such phenomena, I'd be glad to help.

Find something everybody can detect, and it may be worth your while.

Luminon wrote:
If a book is a load of bullshit, authors usually try to cover it by convincing the readers' feelings. Here the author only shows that he plays a fair game with the reader. There is no "God wrote this, so obey" in the foreword.

I never said he wasn't being fair. I said anyone reading on after that introduction can't complain if there's nothing there. Which is pretty darn clever.

Luminon wrote:
There is no little circle of believers. We are not believers, belief is worthless and we're too busy for something that doesn't work. We have a wide network of independent people across the region and state, and we ocassionally use each others' services. Yes, and it is a proof, for those involved. Evidence is evidence, no matter how many people were there to see it.

Then why not share that evidence with people outside the group ? 

Luminon wrote:
I'll put you to the list of passive consumers of evidence who did not help at all. Those will probably have an extra pay.

Neither of us helped with the discovery of electricity, and yet we still get to use it, do experiments with it, etc..

But you want "extra pay" ?

Luminon wrote:
Whether someone does or doesn't win lottery has nothing to do with the soul. People instead use the soul influence to conquer their vices and develop their virtues of character. They use it to have an influence on the people around, to have their way whether for good or bad. None of those people bothered with studying a psychology, body language and so on, they are impressive on their own.

Again, you still don't need a "soul" for that. Everybody studies psychology, body language and so on, in so far as it's part of everyday life.

Luminon wrote:
And are you actually doing it and does it work? Some evidence, please.

You want evidence of me visualising something and then doing it ? I guess I can draw you a picture if you want.

Luminon wrote:
Anyway, you can not be sure of the soul's existence, until you experience it. That is a very impressive, mystical experience. If some scientists would have this, I'm sure they would search for the cause. This is not what people normally have. Science does not yet know of the soul, because people contacting it are so few. And yet, in there is probably the ancient reason why people start mystical sects, why they meditate and write obscure texts with hidden meaning which is decipherable only by those with a particular experience.

How does an impressive, mystical experience equal a "soul" ? Could just be some really good peyote. Could be any number of things that actually exist.

edit : hey look, if you're getting sarcastic vibes again, you're not getting them from me. I'm just trying to cut to the chase as fast as possible.

 


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Falsifiability

The problem involves falifiability.  Instead of asking yourself "how could I observe X assuming souls exist?" and then coming up with some post-hoc explanation about why souls are plausible, you need to ask yourself "what conceivable observation would demonstrate that souls do not exist?"

 

Unless you can answer this question, your notion of a soul is equally compatible with all conceivable observations.  This means you can't use the concept of a soul when making any predictions, because you can't use "soul" to rule anything out.  At this point, the concept of a soul becomes useless because saying "I have a soul" doesn't allow me to determine anything more than the statement "If A then A."  It doesn't give me any new information about the world around me.

 

Also, don't use existence as a predicate.  Before claiming that souls exist, determine the necessary and sufficient conditions for existence.  Only after you have determined these conditions can you assess the existence/nonexistence of souls.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


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Anonymouse wrote:I'm just

Anonymouse wrote:

I'm just trying to find out if there's a subject here at all. There are way too many fields of psuedo-science out there, and I'm not too smart to fall for one of them, so it pays to be careful.

So if me being careful gets on your nerves, well....that just makes me even more careful.

Try to argue less like you're talking with an idiot, please. One example:

Anonymouse wrote:
How does an impressive, mystical experience equal a "soul" ? Could just be some really good peyote. Could be any number of things that actually exist.
  *sigh* *facepalm* OK, let's say we presume that the person with a mystical experience is NOT under the influence of peyote or any other hallucinogen (with exception of those naturally produced by brain which may or may not be the case), NOT locked up in asylum and is NOT whacked on head by a blunt instrument or undergoing clinical death. Is that clear enough?

Anonymouse wrote:
Science is supposed to work for everybody. Nobody needs special training to watch an electric lightsource.
Nobody needs a special training, thanks to misters Galvani, Ampére, Volta, Ohm, Tesla and Edison, and generations of workers of various industries who made all this possible. These people took an observed natural principle (at which stage I'm now, less or more) and through generations of work they literally built it into the world, in a form visible and easy to use for everyone. We consider it today so obvious, that we have no idea how much effort went into the ligt sources.
Now, let's consider there is a new discovery which requires to start that cycle completely anew.

Anonymouse wrote:
Neither of us helped with the discovery of electricity, and yet we still get to use it, do experiments with it, etc..
They say, we must stand on shoulders of giants to become great. But where there is any accepted work in the field of ethericity? I can just point you at a device that should work sure enough to convince anyone who tries it in practice. Any alternatives I know about are unfortunately in central Europe, far from your reach.

Anonymouse wrote:
Now who's not arguing seriously ? I just specifically asked you for a cheap experiment to demonstrate any of the things you were talking about. Not just your black matter ideas. Anything you ever talked about here. Are you telling me there's no way ?
I don't know. I'm not properly equipped, this is something I can't do by myself, I need something or someone to measure up against me. A reference point, an etalon, a testing method, whatever you want to call it. And I need it here, now, cheap, easy and reliable. That's a lot of demands. Someone else may be better equipped than I am and closer to you. Hell, it seems there are generations of work on etheric technologies ahead of us. And you would want the results right now. Yes, there may be results, but to see them you must go to places like orgone laboratory in Oregon.

Anonymouse wrote:
And yet with all the tech at their disposal, only orgonomists can detect a bion. And only "trained professionals" can use an E-meter. Same problem.
And how do you know that? These detectors are sold, anyone can buy one and repeat the measurements. 300 bucks is not that much for a scientist. The problem with technology is, that you must know what you're looking for. These detectors don't measure anything electric or magnetic. It seems they measure a vital etheric layer or radiation around (and inside) bioactive objects - like fresh food or living body, for example.

Anonymouse wrote:
Then why not share that evidence with people outside the group ?
You're used to consuming evidence. An evidence that someone spent years developing, that is paid for, confirmed by the best tools and experts, and published in trustworthy papers. Unfortunately, we don't have the means, time and money to work like that. In our trade, one must earn his own evidence. You would soon learn that it takes time, effort, and sometimes a little money. But above all, the interest and pure motivation. Without interest you will just sit and home and passively consume evidence that someone else prepared for you.

Anonymouse wrote:
But you want "extra pay" ?
Just joking.

Anonymouse wrote:
Again, you still don't need a "soul" for that. Everybody studies psychology, body language and so on, in so far as it's part of everyday life.
Not where I live. Here people just get drunk. Or work all day. Nothing like that. In such environment, the experience of soul is something remarkable. It is like another presence within me. A silent presence, felt just next to my pineal gland, or in the middle of my chest, but a loving one. There is no love like this. It is a love towards everything, everyone, me and nothing at the same time. It is more like a state of being, than activity. It is literally an unconditional love.

And I could go on, because my perception of the world is strange, therefore my perception of mystical experiences is more intense. The basics are not different with less sensitive people, but I can follow many more aspects of such experience. All that, without any pathologic, annoying or restricting side effects. Without any drugs. I have nothing I'd need a psychiatric science to cure me from, but a lot of things worthy of study. Some day I'd like to have my brain checked, you know, stuff like neuron activity in various areas, levels of dopamine, acetylcholine and other juices in there. I am pretty sure that it would give many clues on how the soul and subtle bodies interact with the brain. There are of course more people like that, but unlike them I am young but adult, english speaking and curious.

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brain         ===(orders)==>         body

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Luminon wrote:Try to argue

Luminon wrote:
Try to argue less like you're talking with an idiot, please. One example:

Anonymouse wrote:
How does an impressive, mystical experience equal a "soul" ? Could just be some really good peyote. Could be any number of things that actually exist.
  *sigh* *facepalm* OK, let's say we presume that the person with a mystical experience is NOT under the influence of peyote or any other hallucinogen (with exception of those naturally produced by brain which may or may not be the case), NOT locked up in asylum and is NOT whacked on head by a blunt instrument or undergoing clinical death. Is that clear enough?

*sigh* indeed. You seem to be missing my point by several miles. You can't just presume this soul thing into existence.

I'm not treating you like an idiot, I'm trying to avoid needless, confusing explanations.

Luminon wrote:
Nobody needs a special training, thanks to misters Galvani, Ampére, Volta, Ohm, Tesla and Edison, and generations of workers of various industries who made all this possible. These people took an observed natural principle (at which stage I'm now, less or more) and through generations of work they literally built it into the world, in a form visible and easy to use for everyone. We consider it today so obvious, that we have no idea how much effort went into the ligt sources.
Now, let's consider there is a new discovery which requires to start that cycle completely anew.

I'll consider it when there's an "observed natural principle" anyone can observe. I don't need Galvani's permission to see a lightning bolt.


Luminon wrote:
But where there is any accepted work in the field of ethericity? I can just point you at a device that should work sure enough to convince anyone who tries it in practice. Any alternatives I know about are unfortunately in central Europe, far from your reach.

Didn't Einstein debunk that stuff ?

Central europe isn't far from my reach.


Luminon wrote:
  I don't know. I'm not properly equipped, this is something I can't do by myself, I need something or someone to measure up against me. A reference point, an etalon, a testing method, whatever you want to call it. And I need it here, now, cheap, easy and reliable. That's a lot of demands. Someone else may be better equipped than I am and closer to you. Hell, it seems there are generations of work on etheric technologies ahead of us. And you would want the results right now.

Missing the point again : Something anyone can do. Not just you. So the answer is no ?

Luminon wrote:
Yes, there may be results, but to see them you must go to places like orgone laboratory in Oregon.

Where I will have to take an orgonomist's word for it that something's being detected.

Luminon wrote:
And how do you know that?

Because there actually is an easy "experiment" based on Reich's machines that anyone can do. And guess what ? It doesn't work.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2077953_do-cloud-busting.html

And then there's this :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone

Reich's theory was quickly discredited and dismissed.[7] The current consensus of the scientific community is that orgone theory is pseudoscience.[8][9][10]

 

Luminon wrote:
These detectors are sold, anyone can buy one and repeat the measurements. 300 bucks is not that much for a scientist. The problem with technology is, that you must know what you're looking for. These detectors don't measure anything electric or magnetic. It seems they measure a vital etheric layer or radiation around (and inside) bioactive objects - like fresh food or living body, for example.

And if you buy one now, you get some aura-glasses for free.


REICH1 Reich Sentry™ Orgone Generator 
Pendadant Enlarge Image   5 product stars
$149.99 $97.49

 

Luminon wrote:
Not where I live. Here people just get drunk. Or work all day. Nothing like that.

Huh ? It doesn't matter where you live. Everybody picks up those skills to a certain degree. You'd have to go out of your way to avoid it.

Luminon wrote:
Some day I'd like to have my brain checked, you know, stuff like neuron activity in various areas, levels of dopamine, acetylcholine and other juices in there. I am pretty sure that it would give many clues on how the soul and subtle bodies interact with the brain. There are of course more people like that, but unlike them I am young but adult, english speaking and curious.

Sure, do that. And make sure you have the required medical knowledge to interpret the results correctly.


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Anonymouse wrote:*sigh*

Anonymouse wrote:

*sigh* indeed. You seem to be missing my point by several miles. You can't just presume this soul thing into existence.

I'm not treating you like an idiot, I'm trying to avoid needless, confusing explanations.

I didn't presume it, some Theosophists did it. I took their theories and applied it at my life and people's lives. And experiences. Our group's research shows that it fits.
But to prove it to everyone would require to record changes in the activity of brain and endocrine glands. There should be a measurable difference between normal and ensouled person, in this respect.

Anonymouse wrote:
I'll consider it when there's an "observed natural principle" anyone can observe. I don't need Galvani's permission to see a lightning bolt.
You also don't need Siddharta Gautama's permission to become enlightened.


Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
But where there is any accepted work in the field of ethericity? I can just point you at a device that should work sure enough to convince anyone who tries it in practice. Any alternatives I know about are unfortunately in central Europe, far from your reach.

Didn't Einstein debunk that stuff ?

Central europe isn't far from my reach.

Einstein had nothing to do with that, unless he'd somehow computed away the dark matter itself. That was recently indirectly seen and directly heard by careful measurement.

If central Europe isn't from your reach, I'd like you to visit a Energy company representative. These people diagnose you with a woo method better than a laboratory blood test. I'd recommend you to have a blood test before you get diagnosed like that. I once did it and the results were very nice, they said the same things as the blood test and more. But even more impressive is the method of prescription. Just hold a bottle of pills and it measures how much that particular substance in that bottle will help you.
These herbal pills have quite a high quality, they are used by sportsmen like our national hockey club trainer, J. Ruzicka.
The best thing on it is the price. The diagnosis costs just about 2,5 dollars. AFAIK, there are two practitioners I know of in my region.


Anonymouse wrote:

Missing the point again : Something anyone can do. Not just you. So the answer is no ?

No, probably not. Not anyone and not right now, not with the same effort anyway. It will take lots of work, inventing, developing and evolving (and financing) before everyone will be able to experience what only the sensitive people like me experience today. It is possible to find a little technical demonstration here and there, but as I said, that requires some tourism around the world.

Anonymouse wrote:
Where I will have to take an orgonomist's word for it that something's being detected.
Nope, you will be able to try out the device by yourself. It's a portable meter that must work for anyone.

Anonymouse wrote:
Because there actually is an easy "experiment" based on Reich's machines that anyone can do. And guess what ? It doesn't work.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2077953_do-cloud-busting.html

And then there's this :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone

Reich's theory was quickly discredited and dismissed.[7] The current consensus of the scientific community is that orgone theory is pseudoscience.[8][9][10]

Hey. What kind of nonsense is that? Cloudbusting with mind? Reich himself was using a damn big machine for that. Lots of metal pipes and wires. And surely some voltage. He used his head for thinking and designing the device, not for sending some cloud-dissipating woo ray.

If I could just put my hand in front of a cloudbuster, I should be able to tell whether it is working or not, if it works at all. But my sources say that Reich's orgone battery or chamber does work. It simply takes advantage of the effect, that orgone tends to get caught up by a material of certain alternating metal and plastic or organic layers.

According to scientific community the orgone is a pseudoscience, but they approve dark matter and cosmic background radiation so excessively strong, that there is no noticeable source of it. These things are also here on Earth, they just get detected in space because there is easier to find things. On Earth there is too much interference unless you know exactly what you're looking for. My information is, that Reich detected parts of that which is called etheric world and parts of which are today known to astrophysics. Of course, Reich's observations are simplistic, he discovered mostly the basic properties and functions of orgone, not what it is exactly made of.

Anonymouse wrote:
And if you buy one now, you get some aura-glasses for free.
Nope, James de Meo makes less or more standard measuring devices, including common voltmeters and ampermeters. His etheric meter is an experimental device, but works pretty well. It only doesn't have an absolute scale, only in percentage, because there is still not yet an etheric etalon.

Anonymouse wrote:
Huh ? It doesn't matter where you live. Everybody picks up those skills to a certain degree. You'd have to go out of your way to avoid it.
I don't think so. I have seen too many local broken alcoholic families to believe that. Signs of the soul-realization aren't just something we pick from others. They can't be taught by upbringing, it is actually relatively little that parents and society can influence on us. A potential for them is probably inborn (though not inherited) and the development comes up later in life, often in times of great diffculties.

 

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Luminon wrote:I didn't

Luminon wrote:
I didn't presume it, some Theosophists did it.

Nobody can presume something into existence.

Luminon wrote:
I took their theories and applied it at my life and people's lives. And experiences. Our group's research shows that it fits.

But to prove it to everyone would require to record changes in the activity of brain and endocrine glands. There should be a measurable difference between normal and ensouled person, in this respect.

"Ensouled" person ? You're doing it again !

Luminon wrote:
You also don't need Siddharta Gautama's permission to become enlightened.

Right. So there is nothing in what you're talking about that can actually be observed.

Luminon wrote:
Einstein had nothing to do with that, unless he'd somehow computed away the dark matter itself. That was recently indirectly seen and directly heard by careful measurement.

I mean he debunked Reich's machine. The guy actually sent him one. Big mistake.

Luminon wrote:
If central Europe isn't from your reach, I'd like you to visit a Energy company representative. These people diagnose you with a woo method better than a laboratory blood test. I'd recommend you to have a blood test before you get diagnosed like that. I once did it and the results were very nice, they said the same things as the blood test and more. But even more impressive is the method of prescription. Just hold a bottle of pills and it measures how much that particular substance in that bottle will help you.
These herbal pills have quite a high quality, they are used by sportsmen like our national hockey club trainer, J. Ruzicka.
The best thing on it is the price. The diagnosis costs just about 2,5 dollars. AFAIK, there are two practitioners I know of in my region

Thanks, but I don't even have to go that far to find people peddling that stuff.

Which doesn't actually work, btw.

Anonymouse wrote:
Missing the point again : Something anyone can do. Not just you. So the answer is no ?
Luminon wrote:
No, probably not. Not anyone and not right now, not with the same effort anyway. It will take lots of work, inventing, developing and evolving (and financing) before everyone will be able to experience what only the sensitive people like me experience today. It is possible to find a little technical demonstration here and there, but as I said, that requires some tourism around the world.

So no. Thanks for the clear answer.

Luminon wrote:
Nope, you will be able to try out the device by yourself. It's a portable meter that must work for anyone.

I still have to take their word for it that it's detecting what they say it is. There's no sensible reason for me to do that.

And I'd also have to ignore the fact that the whole thing is considered pseudo-science to begin with.

Luminon wrote:
Hey. What kind of nonsense is that?

I believe it's called "orgonomy"

Luminon wrote:
Cloudbusting with mind? Reich himself was using a damn big machine for that. Lots of metal pipes and wires. And surely some voltage. He used his head for thinking and designing the device, not for sending some cloud-dissipating woo ray.

If I could just put my hand in front of a cloudbuster, I should be able to tell whether it is working or not, if it works at all. But my sources say that Reich's orgone battery or chamber does work. It simply takes advantage of the effect, that orgone tends to get caught up by a material of certain alternating metal and plastic or organic layers.

If you take a look at the rest of that site, you'll find the necessary instructions for making one.

Don't bother.

It doesn't work.

There's instructions for making an orgone battery as well.

Which also doesn't work.

Luminon wrote:
According to scientific community the orgone is a pseudoscience, but they approve dark matter and cosmic background radiation so excessively strong, that there is no noticeable source of it. These things are also here on Earth, they just get detected in space because there is easier to find things. On Earth there is too much interference unless you know exactly what you're looking for. My information is, that Reich detected parts of that which is called etheric world and parts of which are today known to astrophysics. Of course, Reich's observations are simplistic, he discovered mostly the basic properties and functions of orgone, not what it is exactly made of.

Yes, I already figured out you disagree with the scientific community. And we've already established that you can't go beyond assertions unless you get lots of funding to do research.

Which is all rather convenient and depressingly familiar.

Luminon wrote:
Nope, James de Meo makes less or more standard measuring devices, including common voltmeters and ampermeters. His etheric meter is an experimental device, but works pretty well. It only doesn't have an absolute scale, only in percentage, because there is still not yet an etheric etalon.

Sorry, but that was a licensed product, based on their actual "orgone technology".

Luminon wrote:
I don't think so. I have seen too many local broken alcoholic families to believe that. Signs of the soul-realization

Could you please stop doing that ? Just using the word "soul" doesn't mean it actually exists.

Luminon wrote:
aren't just something we pick from others. They can't be taught by upbringing, it is actually relatively little that parents and society can influence on us. A potential for them is probably inborn (though not inherited) and the development comes up later in life, often in times of great diffculties.

Nope, the skills you think are somehow connected to a "soul" are pretty easily learned and quite basic social skills.


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Anonymouse wrote:Nobody can

Anonymouse wrote:

Nobody can presume something into existence.

Not into existence, but for the purpose of testing I can presume anything.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
You also don't need Siddharta Gautama's permission to become enlightened.

Right. So there is nothing in what you're talking about that can actually be observed.

That depends on individual effort, interest, invested time and certain natural predispositions for that. Either way, the observation will be subjective, unless someone will scan your brain at the moment.

Anonymouse wrote:
  I mean he debunked Reich's machine. The guy actually sent him one. Big mistake.
It seems that Einstein measured a difference in temperatures, but ascribed it to a difference between the temperatures of ceiling and floor. Looks like he didn't repeat the experiment in controlled environment.
I don't know anything about temperature-raising properties of orgone. When it comes to sources on it, I'd rather stick with modern sources on this technology.

Anonymouse wrote:
Thanks, but I don't even have to go that far to find people peddling that stuff.

Which doesn't actually work, btw.

Then it's not the stuff I mean. I have met these people personally. I have tried what they can offer and seen how they work. I admit, it was much less of a hassle for me than for a common citizen, because we are acquitances. If you want to know and see, you must keep searching. It will cost some time, effort and money, but there's no replacement for that.

Anonymouse wrote:
So no. Thanks for the clear answer.
You know the saying, quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi. Until a technology develops.

Anonymouse wrote:
I still have to take their word for it that it's detecting what they say it is. There's no sensible reason for me to do that.
If you do measurements with their device, then you can easily tell the truth. It should not measure electric charge, voltage, amperage, light, temperature and so on, but a vitality of an object. This is, etheric compound of every object, but predominantly present in living objects.

Anonymouse wrote:
And I'd also have to ignore the fact that the whole thing is considered pseudo-science to begin with.
Then wear a wig, fake beard, dark glasses and change the license number on your car, so the rationality police will not recognize and arrest you for questioning their considerations.

Anonymouse wrote:
If you take a look at the rest of that site, you'll find the necessary instructions for making one.

Don't bother.

It doesn't work.

There's instructions for making an orgone battery as well.

Which also doesn't work.

I have seen so many people saing that my chakras and etheric body don't exist, and yet they most tangibly exist. People can be so blind and wrong, no matter of their education. So I learned that it is a bad idea to let other people investigate and think for me. If anyone can tell if these things work, it should be me. I just have to get my hands on such a device.  Or to make one, if I find some blueprints with sizes in metric system and not the damn inches and feet.

Anonymouse wrote:
Yes, I already figured out you disagree with the scientific community. And we've already established that you can't go beyond assertions unless you get lots of funding to do research.

Which is all rather convenient and depressingly familiar.

If not funding, then just getting my head scanned for the brain activity of me detecting the etheric matter around and within. That should estabilish that there is really something to study and then funding would be possible. But my studies are most important at the moment. I will not do anything to endanger my education. Dropping out of school to boldly go where nobody yet convinced the fearsome skeptics (and will not convince them for the next several years) would be most unwise. I find it simplier to go to school and just gather information along the way. There is still much I don't know about scientific institutions.
Hell, I would love to become a politician or high level administrator (in any case) - and divert a little stream of scientific funding in the way of this research, with me unofficially participating and counseling the group. (preferably some non-cynical enthusiasts just out of the university)

Anonymouse wrote:
Sorry, but that was a licensed product, based on their actual "orgone technology".
Yes, but it had no dial, no scale on it, so the customers don't know if it does anything. Just because it's a layered material that accumulates orgone, doesn't mean that it will have a measurable effect on a holder of it. I'd prefer the ELEFM by J. de Meo.

Anonymouse wrote:
Nope, the skills you think are somehow connected to a "soul" are pretty easily learned and quite basic social skills.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. Skills like geniality, leadership, creativity and other character features that can be called "divine" are not learned as social skills. Even if they could be, there is nobody around to learn them from. This is why these character traits are rare. Hell, even studies on that are rare. I wonder if any genius had his brain analyzed to catch the creative agency in flagranti.

 

 

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Luminon wrote:Not into

Luminon wrote:
Not into existence, but for the purpose of testing I can presume anything.

Then we agree that "souls" don't exist. Good.

Which makes the rest of this post kinda irrelevant, but sure, okay...

Luminon wrote:
That depends on individual effort, interest, invested time and certain natural predispositions for that. Either way, the observation will be subjective, unless someone will scan your brain at the moment.

Right, so if you can't see the emperor's clothes, it's cause you don't put in the necessary effort, or you lack the time or the talent. Again, these excuses sound depressingly familiar. "You didn't pray hard enough !", "You're not a real christian !", etc..

Luminon wrote:
It seems that Einstein measured a difference in temperatures, but ascribed it to a difference between the temperatures of ceiling and floor. Looks like he didn't repeat the experiment in controlled environment.
I don't know anything about temperature-raising properties of orgone. When it comes to sources on it, I'd rather stick with modern sources on this technology.

But the modern consensus also says it's hokum.

Luminon wrote:
Then it's not the stuff I mean. I have met these people personally. I have tried what they can offer and seen how they work. I admit, it was much less of a hassle for me than for a common citizen, because we are acquitances. If you want to know and see, you must keep searching. It will cost some time, effort and money, but there's no replacement for that.

Actually, thanks to the internet, you can get any kind of alternative medicine sent to your doorstep, for no effort and time at all.

As for money, well, that's always wasted, of course. Because, as we all know, there's only one thing anyone needs to know about "alternative medicine" : If it actually works, it's just called "medicine".

Luminon wrote:
You know the saying, quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi. Until a technology develops.

There's no double standard. There's just science and pseudo-science, and that's putting it mildly.

Luminon wrote:
If you do measurements with their device, then you can easily tell the truth.

No, you can't. You need to let a physicist crack that thing open and see what's going on there. That already happened.

(Btw, if you buy one, you'll find that it doesn't come with a schematic, and you lose your warranty if you open it)

Luminon wrote:
Then wear a wig, fake beard, dark glasses and change the license number on your car, so the rationality police will not recognize and arrest you for questioning their considerations.

Yeah, fuck the experts, what the heck do they know. Who needs 'em.

Luminon wrote:
I have seen so many people saing that my chakras and etheric body don't exist, and yet they most tangibly exist.

No, they don't. You disagree ? Then you have my permission to fondle my chakras and give my etheric body a wedgie. I won't feel a thing.

Luminon wrote:
People can be so blind and wrong, no matter of their education.

No kidding.

Luminon wrote:
So I learned that it is a bad idea to let other people investigate and think for me.

I'm afraid you have no choice. You simply can't check the whole of science for yourself.

Luminon wrote:
If anyone can tell if these things work, it should be me. I just have to get my hands on such a device.  Or to make one, if I find some blueprints with sizes in metric system and not the damn inches and feet.

Knock yourself out : http://hotfile.com/dl/86818776/f3961e9/Carlo_Splendore_MSc_Orgone_motor.pdf.html

Luminon wrote:
If not funding, then just getting my head scanned for the brain activity of me detecting the etheric matter around and within. That should estabilish that there is really something to study and then funding would be possible. But my studies are most important at the moment. I will not do anything to endanger my education. Dropping out of school to boldly go where nobody yet convinced the fearsome skeptics (and will not convince them for the next several years) would be most unwise. I find it simplier to go to school and just gather information along the way. There is still much I don't know about scientific institutions.

Education ? But people can be so blind , no matter of their education.

....I'm sorry, not sure where I picked that up.

Luminon wrote:
Hell, I would love to become a politician or high level administrator (in any case) - and divert a little stream of scientific funding in the way of this research, with me unofficially participating and counseling the group. (preferably some non-cynical enthusiasts just out of the university)

Sounds like you'd be happier as a lobbyist.

Anonymouse wrote:
  Yes, but it had no dial, no scale on it,

Does too. It opens. Doesn't do much else, though.

Luminon wrote:
Perhaps you misunderstood me. Skills like geniality, leadership, creativity and other character features that can be called "divine" are not learned as social skills. Even if they could be, there is nobody around to learn them from. This is why these character traits are rare. Hell, even studies on that are rare. I wonder if any genius had his brain analyzed to catch the creative agency in flagranti.

Now you're talking about genetic traits. And there have been studies on "genius" brains. Saw a program on that not so long ago...lemme look....ah yes, here it is : http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qzlbv


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Anonymouse wrote:Luminon

Anonymouse wrote:

Luminon wrote:
Not into existence, but for the purpose of testing I can presume anything.

Then we agree that "souls" don't exist. Good.

Which makes the rest of this post kinda irrelevant, but sure, okay...

Hey, slow down a little please and explain me the logical steps of how did you arrive at this conclusion.

Anonymouse wrote:

Right, so if you can't see the emperor's clothes, it's cause you don't put in the necessary effort, or you lack the time or the talent. Again, these excuses sound depressingly familiar. "You didn't pray hard enough !", "You're not a real christian !", etc..

So you want to play? All right. Most of people never saw an emperor, because they did not ever meet him, so they never saw his clothes.

Anonymouse wrote:
Actually, thanks to the internet, you can get any kind of alternative medicine sent to your doorstep, for no effort and time at all.
But that's the kind of alternative medicine that wants to cure you from having excessive money. Alternative medicine is a wilderness, a quality service can be found either by sheer fortune, trying out lots of things for many years, or getting a good tip from a good friend.

Anonymouse wrote:
As for money, well, that's always wasted, of course. Because, as we all know, there's only one thing anyone needs to know about "alternative medicine" : If it actually works, it's just called "medicine".
Nope, the "medicine" is a set of methods and substances produced by licensed companies, approved by licensed laboratories in trials done by scientists with titles from licensed universities and are sold at licensed pharmacy stores. It takes several years at least and the process is extremely expensive.
Let's imagine that you're the guy that sits in the chair left by Bill Gates and you say "All working computers are PCs, all working operation systems are  Microsoft Windows. The open-source community does not exist and their code does not compute."

And by the way, the most profitable medicines are these that will never cure anyone. Pills to decrease cholesterol, blood clotting or long-term gastritic acid creations, pills to suppress epilepsy (doesn't work, I had an epileptic roommate once and he had a seizure like every week), and of course "medicine" against asthma and allergy. None of that brings any cure and most of it has nasty side effects. That is not how I imagine "working". (Lipitor, Nexium, Plavix, Advair Diskus, Seroquel, and so on)

Anonymouse wrote:
Yeah, fuck the experts, what the heck do they know. Who needs 'em.
Fuck experts for once, when they can't see what's in front of them, it's the time for a generalist to step in and coordinate their efforts together. A discovery of higher forms of material existence (like etheric, for example) will revolutionize most of scientific compartments, but it may also require them to cooperate first.

Anonymouse wrote:
No, they don't. You disagree ? Then you have my permission to fondle my chakras and give my etheric body a wedgie. I won't feel a thing.
Of course you won't, because you are not trained. In your past incarnations of ancient times you were probably chasing girls and quaffing zyme at the nearest watering hole, while I sat in a temple and meditated to achieve this etheric sensitivity of mine.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
So I learned that it is a bad idea to let other people investigate and think for me.

I'm afraid you have no choice. You simply can't check the whole of science for yourself.

No need, I can just investigate what the science didn't yet discover. I'll believe in the rest of it.

That's a motor. I'd need the battery that Ben Creme has built and succesfully tried on himself.

Anonymouse wrote:
Education ? But people can be so blind , no matter of their education.

....I'm sorry, not sure where I picked that up.

They say, know your enemy.

Anonymouse wrote:
Now you're talking about genetic traits. And there have been studies on "genius" brains. Saw a program on that not so long ago...lemme look....ah yes, here it is : http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qzlbv
Thanks for the link, I'll look at it soon. I wonder if it will apply, though. Most of geniality does not seem inheritable, with exception of musical geniality. I have heard a rumor that those people get often born in families with traditionally longer fingers and they can reach a greater scale on the piano.

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Luminon wrote:Hey, slow down

Luminon wrote:
Hey, slow down a little please and explain me the logical steps of how did you arrive at this conclusion.

We both agree you can't presume anything into existence, and since you can only presume a soul exists, nuff said.

Luminon wrote:
So you want to play? All right. Most of people never saw an emperor, because they did not ever meet him, so they never saw his clothes.

The guys who sold nothing to the emperor, later made a killing selling nothing to everyone else, using the same "you're stupid/not worthy, etc if you can't see it" trick.

Oldest con trick in the book, but it apparently still works.

Luminon wrote:
But that's the kind of alternative medicine that wants to cure you from having excessive money. Alternative medicine is a wilderness, a quality service can be found either by sheer fortune, trying out lots of things for many years, or getting a good tip from a good friend.

But that's how they all talk about the competition.

Luminon wrote:
Nope, the "medicine" is a set of methods and substances produced by licensed companies, approved by licensed laboratories in trials done by scientists with titles from licensed universities and are sold at licensed pharmacy stores. It takes several years at least and the process is extremely expensive.

Nope, medicine is what works.

Luminon wrote:
Let's imagine that you're the guy that sits in the chair left by Bill Gates and you say "All working computers are PCs, all working operation systems are  Microsoft Windows. The open-source community does not exist and their code does not compute."

Why would I imagine that ?

Luminon wrote:
And by the way, the most profitable medicines are these that will never cure anyone. Pills to decrease cholesterol, blood clotting or long-term gastritic acid creations, pills to suppress epilepsy (doesn't work, I had an epileptic roommate once and he had a seizure like every week), and of course "medicine" against asthma and allergy. None of that brings any cure and most of it has nasty side effects. That is not how I imagine "working". (Lipitor, Nexium, Plavix, Advair Diskus, Seroquel, and so on)

Some medicine only alleviates symptoms. Sez so on the box. And when there's only a 60-40 chance of it working, they're also obliged to tell you.

Luminon wrote:
Fuck experts for once, when they can't see what's in front of them, it's the time for a generalist to step in and coordinate their efforts together. A discovery of higher forms of material existence (like etheric, for example) will revolutionize most of scientific compartments, but it may also require them to cooperate first.

No, what it requires first, is an actual discovery.

Luminon wrote:
Of course you won't, because you are not trained.

Sure. And when I'm trained and I still can't feel it, then I just lack the "soul" for it, right ? Always an excuse.

Luminon wrote:
In your past incarnations of ancient times you were probably chasing girls and quaffing zyme at the nearest watering hole, while I sat in a temple and meditated to achieve this etheric sensitivity of mine.

I was straight in a past life ? Eww !!!

You know, I'm going to assume you're satirizing yourself here. The alternative would be too depressing.

Luminon wrote:
No need, I can just investigate what the science didn't yet discover. I'll believe in the rest of it.

Right. So it's not always a bad idea to let other people think and investigate for you, it turns out. Yay !

Luminon wrote:
That's a motor. I'd need the battery that Ben Creme has built and succesfully tried on himself.

Battery schematics and metric measurements should be in that pdf as well, I'm told.

Luminon wrote:
They say, know your enemy.

Enemy ? Geez, lighten up.

Luminon wrote:
Thanks for the link, I'll look at it soon. I wonder if it will apply, though. Most of geniality does not seem inheritable, with exception of musical geniality. I have heard a rumor that those people get often born in families with traditionally longer fingers and they can reach a greater scale on the piano.

It was pretty interesting. And there was more research, but I don't remember enough names and details to google it. It's would be rather strange if that particular field isn't being studied.


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Anonymouse wrote:We both

Anonymouse wrote:

We both agree you can't presume anything into existence, and since you can only presume a soul exists, nuff said.

Nope, I and some people I know (even some total strangers) have a plenty of experiences that are according to esotericism experiences of a soul contact. For example, that may include an inner feeling of bliss and love in the central chest area, from the moment I wake up during the day, that somehow weakens and shortens all stress and negative thoughts if any obstacle shows up.
It's all quite a lot about mystical experiences. Standing in a buss or shopping, there I am, having a mystical experience. I am more inclined to occultism, but an occultist understands the way of heart (mysticism) as one of steps on the path. Yes, I know the world is yucky, I'm no hippie, but that strange inner state of unconditional love is in there anyway pretty often. Completely God-free, suitable even for Jesus-allergics and people who's metabolism is incapable of digesting belief. It is quite weird to feel like that and to play a tactical strategy shooter computer game at the same time.

Anonymouse wrote:
The guys who sold nothing to the emperor, later made a killing selling nothing to everyone else, using the same "you're stupid/not worthy, etc if you can't see it" trick.

Oldest con trick in the book, but it apparently still works.

It works only on people who have low demands on their clothes. Which is unfortunately most of them. You know, marketing specialists often don't sell the clothes themselves, or their practical functions. They sell a wonderful self-conscious feeling that you will have wearing the particular clothes. They also sell moments of family fun when driving to Disneyland in a particular car. They even sell a smell of pie baked in a particular oven that they want to sell you. (this one's real piece from marketing training)
Most of people buys into stuff to get a feeling and thrill out of it. So they don't care if their guru changes opinion or is wrong, or is a complete dick. Our people have distanced themselves from such people. We sometimes deliver them certain tasks so there is at least some benefit out of them, but we don't support them.
Each of us is supposed to be an autonomous thinker who looks out for the bullshit and if sees one, doesn't send it further to other group members. People get into or out of the inner group core depending on how much work they can do and how much bullshit they send through.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
But that's the kind of alternative medicine that wants to cure you from having excessive money. Alternative medicine is a wilderness, a quality service can be found either by sheer fortune, trying out lots of things for many years, or getting a good tip from a good friend.

But that's how they all talk about the competition.

Because that's how it works.

Anonymouse wrote:
Nope, medicine is what works.
That is an ideal. An ideal has a long way to the practice and a lot gets lost on this way. Try to apply "whatever works" on laws and market system and you'll see it won't work so smoothly. According to Martin Kuehe from Vermont University, most of medicine is business. The best selling medicines are these which never cure anything. In comparison, things like Ibogain that really cure people from meth addiction are illegal in USA. If doctors would cure people with one pill, who would sell all the rest of the pills? That's not a good market decision.
Pharmacologic corporations should be paid the most when we are healthy, you'd see how the invisible hand of market would finally start working in our favor.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
Let's imagine that you're the guy that sits in the chair left by Bill Gates and you say "All working computers are PCs, all working operation systems are  Microsoft Windows. The open-source community does not exist and their code does not compute."
Why would I imagine that ? 
It's a metaphor, get it? Macrosoft = official medicine, free coders = the alternative.

Anonymouse wrote:
Some medicine only alleviates symptoms. Sez so on the box. And when there's only a 60-40 chance of it working, they're also obliged to tell you.
But they also thell you that this is the best chance you ever get. This is called a warm fuzzy feeling that you get from having a monopoly over the market.

Anonymouse wrote:
No, what it requires first, is an actual discovery.
What is an actual discovery? Apparently, it is a discovery that is so much under control, that it can be demonstrated repeatedly as an objective evidence. If it shows up only once when nobody else's looking, you're fucked. Or when the equipment needed to detect it is someone's brain. People will tweak knobs on technologic detectors to find things, but they will find it diffcult to exercise their own nerve system to discover something. Nerve system is not a standardized tool, for some people it can be incredibly sensitive to dark matter for example, and some people won't even detect a heap of dirty dishes.

Anonymouse wrote:
  Sure. And when I'm trained and I still can't feel it, then I just lack the "soul" for it, right ? Always an excuse.
You're supposed to be interested in the result and work towards it until you achieve it. Enjoying the process somewhat. It is you that should be your own judge (or excuse maker). It's like playing golf, a gentleman's game. As a critical thinker interested in objective achievements you should be a good judge of the self, if you would be interested in this sort of personal path.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
In your past incarnations of ancient times you were probably chasing girls and quaffing zyme at the nearest watering hole, while I sat in a temple and meditated to achieve this etheric sensitivity of mine.

I was straight in a past life ? Eww !!!

You know, I'm going to assume you're satirizing yourself here. The alternative would be too depressing.

Yeah, I satirize myself Smiling Less or more. Esoteric humour isn't perfect yet, but still better than Christian humour.

Anonymouse wrote:
Right. So it's not always a bad idea to let other people think and investigate for you, it turns out. Yay !
Yeah, it's about positive results, that are more credible. If an elderly professional scientist says that something is possible, then he's most probably right. If he says that something is impossible, he's probably wrong. This is why I mainly trust science when it says that something exists, rather than otherwise. Science says too often about things that they don't exist, even though I have observed them.
It's quite a weird feeling to see James Randi proclaim what everything doesn't exist, while etheric materia swirls between my fingers and my forehead chakra vibrates and hisses.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
They say, know your enemy.

Enemy ? Geez, lighten up.

Well, another attempt at humour. Knowing your enemy is very wise. If both enemies would care to know each other, Christians would see that atheists aren't devil worshippers and baby eaters. Atheists would see that there are rare cases of spiritual people like my group who do a wonderful job with limited tools they have.
Basically, I visit local Christian youth group often with my younger bro' and his gal, so these brainwashed and isolated kids would see what people from the outer world look like, how they think, speak and act. Here among many things I also represent something, but it is fortunately not so important. Locals are great people, smart, fun to read and discuss, they know English and something from most of sciences. Hanging out here is fun, with Christians it's a chore.

Anonymouse wrote:
It was pretty interesting. And there was more research, but I don't remember enough names and details to google it. It's would be rather strange if that particular field isn't being studied.
Perhaps there's not enough geniuses to study, you can't use average guy from the street. This is not about what parts of brain are there, but how the something that makes us what we are uses these parts. Someone should put electrodes on Stephen Hawking's head when he's making his theories.
All right, I have the document downloaded from Youtube, hopefully the winter exams will be over soon and there will be lots of time during winter solstice holiday season.

 

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:Nope, I and

Luminon wrote:
Nope, I and some people I know (even some total strangers) have a plenty of experiences that are according to esotericism experiences of a soul contact. For example, that may include an inner feeling of bliss and love in the central chest area, from the moment I wake up during the day, that somehow weakens and shortens all stress and negative thoughts if any obstacle shows up.


It's all quite a lot about mystical experiences. Standing in a buss or shopping, there I am, having a mystical experience. I am more inclined to occultism, but an occultist understands the way of heart (mysticism) as one of steps on the path. Yes, I know the world is yucky, I'm no hippie, but that strange inner state of unconditional love is in there anyway pretty often. Completely God-free, suitable even for Jesus-allergics and people who's metabolism is incapable of digesting belief. It is quite weird to feel like that and to play a tactical strategy shooter computer game at the same time.

So you have feelings, and you consider them extraordinary. So what ? That still doesn't constitute a "soul".

Whatever happened to naming something after you've actually discovered it ?

Luminon wrote:
It works only on people who have low demands on their clothes. Which is unfortunately most of them. You know, marketing specialists often don't sell the clothes themselves, or their practical functions. They sell a wonderful self-conscious feeling that you will have wearing the particular clothes. They also sell moments of family fun when driving to Disneyland in a particular car. They even sell a smell of pie baked in a particular oven that they want to sell you. (this one's real piece from marketing training)


Most of people buys into stuff to get a feeling and thrill out of it. So they don't care if their guru changes opinion or is wrong, or is a complete dick. Our people have distanced themselves from such people. We sometimes deliver them certain tasks so there is at least some benefit out of them, but we don't support them.
Each of us is supposed to be an autonomous thinker who looks out for the bullshit and if sees one, doesn't send it further to other group members. People get into or out of the inner group core depending on how much work they can do and how much bullshit they send through.

"Buy brand X invisible robes ! Don't buy brand Y ! We have quality control !"

Luminon wrote:
Because that's how it works.

We agree again. Goody.

Luminon wrote:
That is an ideal. An ideal has a long way to the practice and a lot gets lost on this way. Try to apply "whatever works" on laws and market system and you'll see it won't work so smoothly. According to Martin Kuehe from Vermont University, most of medicine is business. The best selling medicines are these which never cure anything. In comparison, things like Ibogain that really cure people from meth addiction are illegal in USA. If doctors would cure people with one pill, who would sell all the rest of the pills? That's not a good market decision.
Pharmacologic corporations should be paid the most when we are healthy, you'd see how the invisible hand of market would finally start working in our favor.

It's not an ideal, it's common sense. If it doesn't work, stop taking it. And don't complain to me about the marketing tactics of your competitors, and certainly not about US regulations cuz I don't actually live there.

Luminon wrote:
It's a metaphor, get it? Macrosoft = official medicine, free coders = the alternative.

Ooo, bad metaphor !!

Luminon wrote:
But they also thell you that this is the best chance you ever get.

I have yet to come across a case where it's not. I'm sure you've personally witnessed many, right ?

Luminon wrote:
This is called a warm fuzzy feeling that you get from having a monopoly over the market.

As opposed to the warm fuzzies you get from knowing you have supernatural powers ?

Luminon wrote:
What is an actual discovery? Apparently, it is a discovery that is so much under control, that it can be demonstrated repeatedly as an objective evidence. If it shows up only once when nobody else's looking, you're fucked.

Sucks, doesn't it ?

Luminon wrote:
Or when the equipment needed to detect it is someone's brain. People will tweak knobs on technologic detectors to find things, but they will find it diffcult to exercise their own nerve system to discover something. Nerve system is not a standardized tool, for some people it can be incredibly sensitive to dark matter for example, and some people won't even detect a heap of dirty dishes.

And when one of your group's enlightened brains starts detecting little green men all over the place, then what ? You're not going to ask them for proof ?  

Luminon wrote:
You're supposed to be interested in the result and work towards it until you achieve it. Enjoying the process somewhat. It is you that should be your own judge (or excuse maker). It's like playing golf, a gentleman's game. As a critical thinker interested in objective achievements you should be a good judge of the self, if you would be interested in this sort of personal path.

Like golf ? You mean it's useless and you look silly doing it ? Again, bad metaphor.

Being a critical thinker is what makes me reject that sort of thing in the first place.

Luminon wrote:
Yeah, I satirize myself Smiling

Saves us the trouble, I guess.

Luminon wrote:
Yeah, it's about positive results, that are more credible. If an elderly professional scientist says that something is possible, then he's most probably right. If he says that something is impossible, he's probably wrong. This is why I mainly trust science when it says that something exists, rather than otherwise. Science says too often about things that they don't exist, even though I have observed them.
It's quite a weird feeling to see James Randi proclaim what everything doesn't exist, while etheric materia swirls between my fingers and my forehead chakra vibrates and hisses.

Uhm....yeah....I suppose that's weird....

(Was that esoteric humor again, or were you being serious ? )

Seriously, how can think it's weird that people don't believe in your chackras and stuff if there's no way for them to detect it ? What observable difference is there between you and someone who just makes stuff up ?

Luminon wrote:
Well, another attempt at humour. Knowing your enemy is very wise. If both enemies would care to know each other, Christians would see that atheists aren't devil worshippers and baby eaters. Atheists would see that there are rare cases of spiritual people like my group who do a wonderful job with limited tools they have.

I had nothing against you to start with. It's only when you or one of your troop try to sell anything to a sick relative or friend of mine, then you and me are gonna have words. Then you'll have an enemy.

Luminon wrote:
Basically, I visit local Christian youth group often with my younger bro' and his gal, so these brainwashed and isolated kids would see what people from the outer world look like, how they think, speak and act. Here among many things I also represent something, but it is fortunately not so important. Locals are great people, smart, fun to read and discuss, they know English and something from most of sciences. Hanging out here is fun, with Christians it's a chore.

Meh, I'm pretty sure some form of christianity is compatible with your brand of woo.

Still, I'd love to see how you do on a christian forum. You should really give that a go.

Luminon wrote:
Perhaps there's not enough geniuses to study, you can't use average guy from the street. This is not about what parts of brain are there, but how the something that makes us what we are uses these parts. Someone should put electrodes on Stephen Hawking's head when he's making his theories.
All right, I have the document downloaded from Youtube, hopefully the winter exams will be over soon and there will be lots of time during winter solstice holiday season.

Well, have a look-see and tell me what you think.


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Anonymouse wrote:So you have

Anonymouse wrote:

So you have feelings, and you consider them extraordinary. So what ? That still doesn't constitute a "soul".

Whatever happened to naming something after you've actually discovered it ?

It does constitute the soul of esoteric sense of that word, described in publications like A Treatise on White Magic: Path of a Disciple by AAB and Master DK. As long as the description fits, there's no reason to give it a new name.

Anonymouse wrote:

"Buy brand X invisible robes ! Don't buy brand Y ! We have quality control !"

Quality control in hands of "us" only is a bad idea. In this sort of jungle people and their friends themselves must become a quality control of their own.

Anonymouse wrote:

It's not an ideal, it's common sense. If it doesn't work, stop taking it. And don't complain to me about the marketing tactics of your competitors, and certainly not about US regulations cuz I don't actually live there.

The problem also is, nobody knows in advance what will work on a health problem and what not. They will find out through multiple attempts. In such cases I prefer alternative medicine, which is less invasive. It doesn't fuck you up so much if the treatment is wrong. In hospitals they work with many strong substances and mistaking them for each other is too easy in the routine job.
It's easier for me to visit certain well-tried healer or psychic and have prescribed exactly what I need, how much I need, in a moment and without risk. I regret that in other regions and countries people get ripped off by amateurs, but here I have found a quality service.

Anonymouse wrote:
Luminon wrote:
But they also thell you that this is the best chance you ever get.

I have yet to come across a case where it's not. I'm sure you've personally witnessed many, right ?

Thankfully not, our people are healthy enough to not need doctors. Doctors are good in acute cases (like accidents), but as for prevention and chronical treatment we don't need them. I only have testimonies of more distant group members who became victims of a doctor's blunder and came over to alternative medicine.

Anonymouse wrote:
  As opposed to the warm fuzzies you get from knowing you have supernatural powers ?
No, they're inborn and after 20+ years I take it as normal thing. Nothing to get excited about.

Anonymouse wrote:
  And when one of your group's enlightened brains starts detecting little green men all over the place, then what ? You're not going to ask them for proof ? 
Yeah, that sort of thing is called astral sensitivity. It's a primitive form of clairvoyance, a shameful remnant from our animal evolution. It is characteristic for mediums and general New Age community, but we seek to purge it from among us. Our group is one of few that do not cultivate astral sensitivity. We're quite allergic to it, just like you're not enthusiastic about Christianity.

Anonymouse wrote:

Like golf ? You mean it's useless and you look silly doing it ? Again, bad metaphor.

Being a critical thinker is what makes me reject that sort of thing in the first place.

Smiling No, it means you're your own judge in the process.  No, it's not useless, it potentizes everything you do, your very impact on the world around. And nobody looks silly doing it, because outwardly it does not require any silly activities besides doing your duty better than otherwise.

Anonymouse wrote:

Uhm....yeah....I suppose that's weird....

(Was that esoteric humor again, or were you being serious ? )

Seriously, how can think it's weird that people don't believe in your chackras and stuff if there's no way for them to detect it ? What observable difference is there between you and someone who just makes stuff up ?

Nope, here I am completely serious. It is a thing I easily and clearly perceive every day for many many years. It is an undeniable experience which solidly defines my opinion, as it would do with anyone in my place. But at the same time it makes me realize, that I can not impose this experience on others, just inform them about it.

The weird thing is, that 99,9% of skeptics are sitting on their connection and they consider it a belief and me therefore closed-minded believer. No, it is not a belief, it is a million times repeated physically realistic observation of not quite physical phenomenon. I guess that people like James Randi are too old to understand the difference.

Anonymouse wrote:
I had nothing against you to start with. It's only when you or one of your troop try to sell anything to a sick relative or friend of mine, then you and me are gonna have words. Then you'll have an enemy.
Sell? Don't worry, people come to us, not otherwise. But, would you make an exception in case of a book from our edition? Just asking, hypothetically.

Anonymouse wrote:

Meh, I'm pretty sure some form of christianity is compatible with your brand of woo.

Still, I'd love to see how you do on a christian forum. You should really give that a go.

I was actually some time on Christian forum, representing mostly the New Age side. The problem with Christians is, that they have no intellectual capacity. There are compatible branches of Christianity - Rosicrucianism and Unitarian Universalism (which is compatible with almost everything) but Evangelicals and Catholics don't know anything about them. They don't know anything at all, except of chosen passages of Bible. If I write something, they don't understand, they respond with pre-defined answers or they say they don't know but they believe.

Organized religion is an institution made to protect immature people from dangerous knowledge and emotional and mental insecurity. The problem is, that in 533 CE a byzantine emperor added the doctrine of eternal damnation into Bible and made it a cult of fear. Nowadays even people who could be something more get trapped in this spiritual nursery school.

I found out that with Christians its the best to stick with the basics, which are the simpliest Atheistic arguments and very down-to-earth logic of everyday life. For example, I explain justice on the example of scales (Justitia) where on both sides there must be an equal weight. This is to break their notion of understanding justice as the divine infinite punishment bullshittery.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote: the soul of

Luminon wrote:
the soul of esoteric sense of that word,

Holy word salad, Batman. What the heck is that ?

Luminon wrote:
described in publications like A Treatise on White Magic: Path of a Disciple by AAB and Master DK. As long as the description fits, there's no reason to give it a new name.

Figures. I have to read a magic book to get it. Still no "soul". Just words.

Luminon wrote:
Quality control in hands of "us" only is a bad idea. In this sort of jungle people and their friends themselves must become a quality control of their own.

Doesn't matter. The robes are still invisible and intangible.

Luminon wrote:
The problem also is, nobody knows in advance what will work on a health problem and what not. They will find out through multiple attempts. In such cases I prefer alternative medicine, which is less invasive. It doesn't fuck you up so much if the treatment is wrong.

No. Opting for "alternative medicine" when you have cancer can kill you. It doesn't get more fucked up than that.

Luminon wrote:
In hospitals they work with many strong substances and mistaking them for each other is too easy in the routine job.

Well, yeah, mistaking something that actually works for something else, is probably a lot more serious than mistaking one useless and ineffective bit of woo for another.

Luminon wrote:
It's easier for me to visit certain well-tried healer or psychic and have prescribed exactly what I need, how much I need, in a moment and without risk.

Of course there's no risk. None of it actually does anything.

Luminon wrote:
I regret that in other regions and countries people get ripped off by amateurs, but here I have found a quality service.

And yet they provide exactly the same stuff. Go figure.

Luminon wrote:
Thankfully not, our people are healthy enough to not need doctors. Doctors are good in acute cases (like accidents),

Funny how all those crystals and etheric energies suddenly stop working when there's someone bleeding to death.

Luminon wrote:
but as for prevention and chronical treatment we don't need them.

Oh really ? What's the "alternative" way of treating cystic fibrosis for example ?

Luminon wrote:
I only have testimonies of more distant group members who became victims of a doctor's blunder and came over to alternative medicine.

And why not simply go to a better doctor ? At least with those guys you can tell the difference between a "blunder" and the desired effect of the treatment.

Luminon wrote:
No, they're inborn and after 20+ years I take it as normal thing. Nothing to get excited about.

For something you're not exited about, you sure do talk about it a lot.

Well, I guess you have no choice.

If you didn't talk about them, how would anyone even know you had them ?

Luminon wrote:
Yeah, that sort of thing is called astral sensitivity. It's a primitive form of clairvoyance, a shameful remnant from our animal evolution. It is characteristic for mediums and general New Age community, but we seek to purge it from among us. Our group is one of few that do not cultivate astral sensitivity. We're quite allergic to it, just like you're not enthusiastic about Christianity.

The point was, if you're all just taking each other's word for it, then where do you draw the line ? Anyone in your group whom you consider to be more skilled at those "powers", could basically make any kind of absurd claim and you'd just believe him ? I mean, at what point would you go : "Dude, you're just making that shit up" ? 

Luminon wrote:
Smiling No, it means you're your own judge in the process.  No, it's not useless, it potentizes everything you do, your very impact on the world around. And nobody looks silly doing it, because outwardly it does not require any silly activities besides doing your duty better than otherwise.

Your own judge ? Okay, nothing like golf or any sport at all then. More like writing fiction and never letting anyone else read it.

Luminon wrote:
Nope, here I am completely serious. It is a thing I easily and clearly perceive every day for many many years. It is an undeniable experience which solidly defines my opinion, as it would do with anyone in my place. But at the same time it makes me realize, that I can not impose this experience on others, just inform them about it.

Which is exactly how our esteemed christian friends on this forum describe their faith.

Luminon wrote:
The weird thing is, that 99,9% of skeptics are sitting on their connection and they consider it a belief and me therefore closed-minded believer. No, it is not a belief, it is a million times repeated physically realistic observation of not quite physical phenomenon. I guess that people like James Randi are too old to understand the difference.

A physically realistic observation of not quite physical phenomenon ? Which only you can see ?

Maybe James Randi just isn't stupid.

Luminon wrote:
Sell? Don't worry, people come to us, not otherwise. But, would you make an exception in case of a book from our edition? Just asking, hypothetically.

I would make you eat it. Nothing personal. A traditional psychologist once tried to sell me a book full of crap, and I told him the same thing.

Luminon wrote:
I was actually some time on Christian forum, representing mostly the New Age side. The problem with Christians is, that they have no intellectual capacity.

Uhm...yeah, I think I can guess how that went.

Luminon wrote:
There are compatible branches of Christianity - Rosicrucianism and Unitarian Universalism (which is compatible with almost everything) but Evangelicals and Catholics don't know anything about them. They don't know anything at all, except of chosen passages of Bible. If I write something, they don't understand, they respond with pre-defined answers or they say they don't know but they believe.

Oh, if only they knew how much you guys have in common.

Luminon wrote:
Organized religion is an institution made to protect immature people from dangerous knowledge and emotional and mental insecurity. The problem is, that in 533 CE a byzantine emperor added the doctrine of eternal damnation into Bible and made it a cult of fear. Nowadays even people who could be something more get trapped in this spiritual nursery school.

Actually, there seem to be quite a lot of christians who claim to dislike organised religion.

Luminon wrote:
I found out that with Christians its the best to stick with the basics, which are the simpliest Atheistic arguments and very down-to-earth logic of everyday life. For example, I explain justice on the example of scales (Justitia) where on both sides there must be an equal weight. This is to break their notion of understanding justice as the divine infinite punishment bullshittery.

And does that work ?