Debating any Mythicist

Mattp
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Debating any Mythicist

 I will be debating any Mythicist on debate.org, each person has 72 hours to present their argument for that specific round, and each post is limited to 8000 characters so the debate will be brief.

 

Anyone interested can accept the debate here: http://www.debate.org/debate/13720/


Atheistextremist
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It's hard for me to believe you

 

are able to be so comfortable with Josephus as your primary source, Matt. It's pretty clear where these passages come from - the forth century propaganda master. 

 

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


JesusNEVERexisted
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Mattp wrote: I will be

Mattp wrote:

 I will be debating any Mythicist on debate.org, each person has 72 hours to present their argument for that specific round, and each post is limited to 8000 characters so the debate will be brief.

 

Anyone interested can accept the debate here: http://www.debate.org/debate/13720/

Mattp, you LOSE!! You can't use the bible itself to prove that bible gods are true! LMAO!!

By that logic you can use the Bhagvad-Gita, Upanishads, and Ramayana to prove Krishna, Rama, Shiva, Hanuman, etc. are all true.

There are NO historical references to any Jesus outside of the bible so right there the proponderence of evidence CLEARLY is on the side of a mythical god.  Even the landmark "historical" document of Jesus' existence, the Testomonium Flavium, is racked with FRAUD which even historicans and the CATHOLIC CHURCH admit!!

 

 

 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

It's hard for me to believe you

are able to be so comfortable with Josephus as your primary source, Matt. It's pretty clear where these passages come from - the forth century propaganda master. 

 

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

The interpolation of Josephus could have been the responsibility of any one of a number of nameless Christian scribes, but it was probably not Eusebius.  The church father Origen wrote a hundred years before Eusebius, and he twice apparently used Josephus' writing about Jesus as evidence to win religious debates.  Origen apparently knew about the passage in Josephus where he wrote about "James, the brother of Jesus, called Christ."  He also wrote as a concession that Josephus did not believe Jesus as the Christ, as though that is what Josephus explicitly wrote. 

Against Celsus, 1:47

For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ),-the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice. Paul, a genuine disciple of Jesus, says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord, not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine.

On The Gospel Of Matthew, 1:15

Flavius Josephus, who wrote the "Antiquities of the Jews" in twenty books, when wishing to exhibit the cause why the people suffered so great misfortunes that even the temple was razed to the ground, said, that these things happened to them in accordance with the wrath of God in consequence of the things which they had dared to do against James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ. And the wonderful thing is, that, though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the righteousness of James was so great; and he says that the people thought that they had suffered these things because of James.

It is therefore next to impossible that Eusebius faked all of the writing of Josephus about Jesus.   It is possible that Eusebius changed the Testimonium Flavianum in his favor, though I would find it far more probable that it was some Christian scribe between the times of Origen and Eusebius who didn't want to copy down blasphemy.  The Testimonium Flavianum says, "He was the Christ," and it was only a simple omission from the original, "He was not the Christ," which would match both Josephus' known views and what Origen wrote.


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Doesn't matter. Jesus is

Doesn't matter. 

Jesus is 99% Arab MYTH and that is proven to be true with each passing minute, hour, day, week, month, year, etc.

ChristNUTS have been 100% wrong in all their supernatural claims and all predictions about Jesus "coming back".

There is NO historical Jesus. Everything that has been cited to corroborate the existence of Jesus has been done by people who lived DECADES later but never actualy saw any Jesus and weren't even a contemporary of Jesus!

Josephus also mentioned Hercules.  So now Christians believe in Hercules too?

 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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JesusNEVERexisted

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

Doesn't matter. 

Jesus is 99% Arab MYTH and that is proven to be true with each passing minute, hour, day, week, month, year, etc.

ChristNUTS have been 100% wrong in all their supernatural claims and all predictions about Jesus "coming back".

There is NO historical Jesus. Everything that has been cited to corroborate the existence of Jesus has been done by people who lived DECADES later but never actualy saw any Jesus and weren't even a contemporary of Jesus!

Josephus also mentioned Hercules.  So now Christians believe in Hercules too?

 

But at least the Greek gods were exciting, fun and ------FICTION.

Jesus was insane, boring and ----------FICTION.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Atheistextremist
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Thanks for your input

ApostateAbe wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

It's hard for me to believe you

are able to be so comfortable with Josephus as your primary source, Matt. It's pretty clear where these passages come from - the forth century propaganda master. 

 

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

The interpolation of Josephus could have been the responsibility of any one of a number of nameless Christian scribes, but it was probably not Eusebius.  The church father Origen wrote a hundred years before Eusebius, and he twice apparently used Josephus' writing about Jesus as evidence to win religious debates.  Origen apparently knew about the passage in Josephus where he wrote about "James, the brother of Jesus, called Christ."  He also wrote as a concession that Josephus did not believe Jesus as the Christ, as though that is what Josephus explicitly wrote. 

Against Celsus, 1:47

For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ),-the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice. Paul, a genuine disciple of Jesus, says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord, not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine.

On The Gospel Of Matthew, 1:15

Flavius Josephus, who wrote the "Antiquities of the Jews" in twenty books, when wishing to exhibit the cause why the people suffered so great misfortunes that even the temple was razed to the ground, said, that these things happened to them in accordance with the wrath of God in consequence of the things which they had dared to do against James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ. And the wonderful thing is, that, though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the righteousness of James was so great; and he says that the people thought that they had suffered these things because of James.

It is therefore next to impossible that Eusebius faked all of the writing of Josephus about Jesus.   It is possible that Eusebius changed the Testimonium Flavianum in his favor, though I would find it far more probable that it was some Christian scribe between the times of Origen and Eusebius who didn't want to copy down blasphemy.  The Testimonium Flavianum says, "He was the Christ," and it was only a simple omission from the original, "He was not the Christ," which would match both Josephus' known views and what Origen wrote.

 

Abe. Those points broaden the scope of possibilities considerably. I agree with you - it seems likely the mention of James in Josephus is older than I suggested. It would be nice to know for certain exactly who wrote what and when.

I had read Eusebius was the first to use the "For he was the Christ" passage in an argument with pagan opponents - the church would surely have used this passage earlier than 400 if the'd had it. Given his eagerness to lie for the lord, I think it likely Eusebius wrote the Testimonium. I'll have to look it up again and consider my position.

What do you think, TG, JGadfly or John Paul? Who may have authored this passage? 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Whilst I am flattered to be

Whilst I am flattered to be listed among such knowledgeable people, I must admit that the authorship of the interpolation is something I hadn't thought much about.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Atheistextremist
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Here's some meat and potatoes on the Testimonium

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


pauljohntheskeptic
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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

ApostateAbe wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

It's hard for me to believe you

are able to be so comfortable with Josephus as your primary source, Matt. It's pretty clear where these passages come from - the forth century propaganda master. 

 

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

The interpolation of Josephus could have been the responsibility of any one of a number of nameless Christian scribes, but it was probably not Eusebius.  The church father Origen wrote a hundred years before Eusebius, and he twice apparently used Josephus' writing about Jesus as evidence to win religious debates.  Origen apparently knew about the passage in Josephus where he wrote about "James, the brother of Jesus, called Christ."  He also wrote as a concession that Josephus did not believe Jesus as the Christ, as though that is what Josephus explicitly wrote. 

Against Celsus, 1:47

For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ),-the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice. Paul, a genuine disciple of Jesus, says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord, not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine.

On The Gospel Of Matthew, 1:15

Flavius Josephus, who wrote the "Antiquities of the Jews" in twenty books, when wishing to exhibit the cause why the people suffered so great misfortunes that even the temple was razed to the ground, said, that these things happened to them in accordance with the wrath of God in consequence of the things which they had dared to do against James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ. And the wonderful thing is, that, though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the righteousness of James was so great; and he says that the people thought that they had suffered these things because of James.

It is therefore next to impossible that Eusebius faked all of the writing of Josephus about Jesus.   It is possible that Eusebius changed the Testimonium Flavianum in his favor, though I would find it far more probable that it was some Christian scribe between the times of Origen and Eusebius who didn't want to copy down blasphemy.  The Testimonium Flavianum says, "He was the Christ," and it was only a simple omission from the original, "He was not the Christ," which would match both Josephus' known views and what Origen wrote.

 

Abe. Those points broaden the scope of possibilities considerably. I agree with you - it seems likely the mention of James in Josephus is older than I suggested. It would be nice to know for certain exactly who wrote what and when.

I had read Eusebius was the first to use the "For he was the Christ" passage in an argument with pagan opponents - the church would surely have used this passage earlier than 400 if the'd had it. Given his eagerness to lie for the lord, I think it likely Eusebius wrote the Testimonium. I'll have to look it up again and consider my position.

What do you think, TG, JGadfly or John Paul? Who may have authored this passage? 

 

 

I go with an unnamed Christian scribe who was making copies of  Josephus sometime between Origen and Eusebius though I wouldn't put anything past Eusebius.

Origen is clear Josephus did not see the Jesus as the Christ or the messiah (mashiach). Between Origen and Eusebius there were many events that influenced the developing church including Constantine and the legitimacy of Christianity in the Empire by his edict.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

ApostateAbe wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

It's hard for me to believe you

are able to be so comfortable with Josephus as your primary source, Matt. It's pretty clear where these passages come from - the forth century propaganda master. 

 

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

The interpolation of Josephus could have been the responsibility of any one of a number of nameless Christian scribes, but it was probably not Eusebius.  The church father Origen wrote a hundred years before Eusebius, and he twice apparently used Josephus' writing about Jesus as evidence to win religious debates.  Origen apparently knew about the passage in Josephus where he wrote about "James, the brother of Jesus, called Christ."  He also wrote as a concession that Josephus did not believe Jesus as the Christ, as though that is what Josephus explicitly wrote. 

Against Celsus, 1:47

For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ),-the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice. Paul, a genuine disciple of Jesus, says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord, not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine.

On The Gospel Of Matthew, 1:15

Flavius Josephus, who wrote the "Antiquities of the Jews" in twenty books, when wishing to exhibit the cause why the people suffered so great misfortunes that even the temple was razed to the ground, said, that these things happened to them in accordance with the wrath of God in consequence of the things which they had dared to do against James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ. And the wonderful thing is, that, though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the righteousness of James was so great; and he says that the people thought that they had suffered these things because of James.

It is therefore next to impossible that Eusebius faked all of the writing of Josephus about Jesus.   It is possible that Eusebius changed the Testimonium Flavianum in his favor, though I would find it far more probable that it was some Christian scribe between the times of Origen and Eusebius who didn't want to copy down blasphemy.  The Testimonium Flavianum says, "He was the Christ," and it was only a simple omission from the original, "He was not the Christ," which would match both Josephus' known views and what Origen wrote.

 

Abe. Those points broaden the scope of possibilities considerably. I agree with you - it seems likely the mention of James in Josephus is older than I suggested. It would be nice to know for certain exactly who wrote what and when.

I had read Eusebius was the first to use the "For he was the Christ" passage in an argument with pagan opponents - the church would surely have used this passage earlier than 400 if the'd had it. Given his eagerness to lie for the lord, I think it likely Eusebius wrote the Testimonium. I'll have to look it up again and consider my position.

What do you think, TG, JGadfly or John Paul? Who may have authored this passage? 

 

 

I go with an unnamed Christian scribe who was making copies of  Josephus sometime between Origen and Eusebius though I wouldn't put anything past Eusebius.

Origen is clear Josephus did not see the Jesus as the Christ or the messiah (mashiach). Between Origen and Eusebius there were many events that influenced the developing church including Constantine and the legitimacy of Christianity in the Empire by his edict.

Not to mention in the bible it says to LIE for god and there have been over 100,000 fake artificats found in and around Palestine regarding Christianity!!

Christianity has a history of lying and making up stories!! So it makes perfect sense Jesus is another part of the lie!

Especially when you were under the thread of DEATH from "convert or DIE" Constantine and Charlamagne.  Any scribe could've simply changed the Testomonium Flavium to set their agenda! 

Jesus could have been based on a "deluded rabbi" and Hitchens explains well here:

The Core of the Jesus MYTH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMo5R5pLPBE

 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com