Richard Carrier what an atheist ought to stand for

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Richard Carrier what an atheist ought to stand for

Is it just me or are too many "oughts" being attached to atheism these days?

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/ought.html

 

Richard Carrier wrote:

What an Atheist Ought to Stand For (1999)
(Revised 2004)

 

Richard Carrier

 

A Justifiable Lament

There is a common and justifiable lament that atheists are so preoccupied by naming and arguing what they are against, that people rarely hear what atheists are for. This is not only heard from the religious critics of atheism, but can be found in the voices and private thoughts of atheists themselves. Even the very names we take emphasize what we are against rather than for: atheist, agnostic, nonreligious, etc. Even the term freethinker straddles the fence: to stand for freedom of thought still implies that our thoughts should be free from something.

Of course, these terms are not meant to encompass entire value systems. They merely identify a narrow position on one particular point of fact. I am like all other atheists only in that I do not believe there are any gods. Beyond that, I may differ dramatically in my values and beliefs from any other atheist. On both sides of the political spectrum, one can find the quasi-conservative Objectivists and the ultraliberal Communists, both of whom hate each other. These two factions take up nearly opposite sets of values, yet both are comprised of unabashed atheists. I agree with neither. Similar diversity can be found in any other group--agnostics include devout Christians, freethinkers include New Agers, and the nonreligious include among their ranks everything from nihilists to flakes.

There has long been a solution to the above problem that too few have taken advantage of. The term "Secular Humanism" is a clear statement of what one stands for as well as against: being secular, one stands apart from religion, but being a humanist, one stands for humanity. Naturally, religionists have maligned and cursed and slandered this term beyond all measure, and have so equated it with atheism that even the public at large cannot see any difference between the two. Since too few have successfully defended the term and what it stands for, the advantage of the name has been lost in public discourse. But more importantly, it is incorrect to assume that all secular humanists are atheists. Being against religious solutions to our problems is not quite the same thing as not believing there is a god.

I want to talk about atheists, in as general a sense as I can. Although no one can write a truly general statement about what atheists stand for--since there are too many different kinds of atheists--it is still possible to describe what certain atheists stand for, and I have in mind the garden variety American atheist whom I have met many times in my life. It is also possible to suggest what all atheists ought to stand for, and this is ultimately what I intend to do. For there are certain values that have been held by almost all the atheists I have known and studied, values that I believe are not only compatible with atheism, but necessary to it. Besides, whenever we are asked "What do you stand for?" it is helpful to have a ready answer to that question.

The Ethics of Thought

It is probably true that almost all atheists stand for the values of reason and freethought. I will attempt to put these values in more substantial terms. There is the belief that inquiry and doubt are essential checks against deception, self deception, and error. There is the belief that logic and proper empirical method is the only way the whole world can arrive at an agreement on the truth about anything. And there is the belief that it is better to be good to each other and to build on what we all agree to be true, than to insist that we all think alike. The words I have put in bold above are the very things I believe all atheists should stand for.

First is the belief that "inquiry and doubt are essential checks against deception, self-deception, and error." Even religionists will sometimes give this value lip service, but very often they do not abide by it. And insofar as anyone cherishes this value but does not live up to it, they are living immorally even according to their own value system. I cannot count the number of times I have heard Christians declare this value as a reason to read the Bible, yet blithely ignore it when I ask them to read the Tao Te Ching. We must accept that we are vulnerable to error in any matter in which we lack all doubt or have not led a meaningful inquiry. The honest atheist will regard willful ignorance and blind faith as the more dangerous of sins.

Contrary to theological polemic, it is not absurd to say that you stand for doubt. You should be open to falsifying evidence for any belief you hold, and you should commit to the rule that you will sway your opinion by the preponderance of evidence, and not by the preponderance of faith, tradition, or desire. Even when your faith in some belief is unusually strong, caution is in order. Rather than reject opposing evidence, and rather than give an unjustified weight to confirming evidence, if you know the facts might be incorrect or incomplete, then you should make a solid inquiry into those facts. You should admit your uncertainty, and accept that the preponderance of evidence must always decide, and only careful inquiry will resolve the matter. All of science has been driven by this principle. It has never been enough for a scientist to have faith in a theory. Rather than employ that faith as justification for belief, the scientist employs it as justification for inquiry. Belief is not declared, one way or the other, until some respectable measure of inquiry has been completed. This is why science makes progress and religion does not. I believe this is more than a method shared by science, history, journalism, and forensic law. This is the way one ought to behave, and I think most atheists would agree.

Next is the belief that "logic and proper empirical method is the only way the whole world can arrive at an agreement on the truth about anything" and that "it is better to be good to each other and to build on what we all agree to be true, than to insist that we all think alike." These are related truths, which atheists are well-suited to accept and adopt, for both are generally rejected by believers in god. It is hard to dispute the fact that almost all atheists stand for science and reason, for high standards of empirical inquiry and rational thought. They believe in perfecting their grasp of scientific discoveries as well as scientific methods, and in honing their ability to apply reason and critical, empirical thought to every field of endeavor, even their daily lives. All the hours and years that theists apply themselves to prayer and devotion and the perusal of scripture, atheists apply themselves to the study of the universe, to the refinement of their understanding of things, and to their mastery of clear and successful thinking and questioning.

It is beyond dispute that whenever there is any outstanding disagreement about any matter of fact, which is not resolved when everyone looks and observes the same things, then the methods of science and logic must be brought to bear to decide the question. For apart from plain observation--if even after that no one agrees on what they are seeing or what it signifies--then science and logic are the only methods we know that can reveal to everyone the same decisive evidence. If ordinary observation fails to secure agreement, and neither science nor logic nor any equivalent standards of empirical inquiry can be applied to a question, then both sides of the dispute must honestly admit their mutual ignorance. For it is dishonest to maintain that someone is wrong when you have nothing at hand to prove it, and logical and empirical methods provide the only known ways to prove anything to everyone (leaving aside, of course, the lunatics and the irrational, who reject all sound reason and principles of evidence). The humility to admit your own ignorance, and the wisdom to not assume too much, are virtues that atheists should not forget to hold dear--even as they always seek to end their ignorance and go beyond their assumptions, with constant questioning and investigation. And this will affect how we treat our fellow humans, because it leads us to the conclusion that it is better to preach the gospel of 'be good to others even when you disagree with them', than to preach the gospel of 'believe in our religion or be damned'. The former brings only peace, life, and happiness, and teaches us the value of respect and negotiation, but the latter brings only division, death, and misery, and teaches only tyranny and hatred.

The Ethics of Life

The values that play the most important role in any person's life are those which stem from the meaning they have found in their lives. It is the standard rhetoric of the religious that only god gives life meaning, but to really believe this one must first believe that human life, thought, happiness, even love, are all in themselves worthless and void of meaning. I think any atheist would agree this is absurd. Even if I were the accidental byproduct of a giant rubber tire machine, the mere fact that I live and know that I live would give my life meaning at once. And the moment I felt happiness or love, their meaning and value would be immediately obvious. Anything else would be unnecessary [see Our Meaning in Life]. And as all atheists know, all of these things would exist even without a god. For all that is needed is a person, who is capable of living, loving, and knowing happiness.

The ultimate meaning of life is to live it. There is no big mystery about that. But life would not be worth living if it knew no happiness or love. It has been well argued since Aristotle that happiness is the ultimate aim of living, for it is the only thing we seek for itself. Everything else we pursue for some other reason, but we seek happiness for no other reason than to be happy. And though the preacher loves to attack the hedonism which he thinks this entails, in actual fact his own religion is based on the very same principle. For all the goals of religion are sought for some other reason, except the ultimate goal of eternal happiness. For when a preacher says "worship god" and the congregation asks why, and continues to ask the why of every answer he gives, he can only end the interrogation by answering with the same ultimate answer: "because it will make you happy."

Thus, happiness is the ultimate value that all atheists stand for. They may vary in endless ways as to how happiness is to be pursued, but all will agree to the ultimate value of the end product. It is here most of all that enlightened religious philosophy is often studied by the atheist. For it is not in belief or ritual that happiness is achieved. It does not come from a god, and in the end organized religion is useless. Rather, happiness comes from understanding and accomplishment, and the wise atheist stands for these two things as surely as anything else. Happiness comes from perceiving what is both good and easily obtained, such as the experience of love and beauty and friendship, and the joy of many other simple pleasures, and from seeking and following the various ways we can have these things in our lives. Happiness comes, also, from perceiving how evils and obstacles can be removed or avoided, and from acting on that knowledge. This is how understanding and accomplishment lead to happiness, and this is why the atheist values all these approaches to life, and strives to embody and master them.

The Ethics of Ethics

Morality is the favorite watchword of the religious. It is also a popular polemic to equate atheism with the complete absence of morality, as if a disbelief in god meant at the same time a disbelief in moral standards. Any inquiry into the beliefs of actual atheists in the matter of morals would prove this assumption wrong. Indeed, the atheist is often possessed of stronger moral convictions than devout believers. Abraham, so the Old Testament claims, abandoned his morals at the mere command of his god. He was prepared to commit murder, even kill his own son, and this was proof of his religious devotion. Like him, many a religious man is willing to push morals aside if he thinks his god has asked or allowed him to, if he thinks it is for "the greater good" of god. Not so the atheist. If god appeared to me and asked me to kill my son, even though I would have undeniable proof that god exists and was the supreme creator and the ultimate power of the universe, I would reject his command at once. I would prefer death to the defilement of what is right. To want murder is evil, and if God wanted murder, he would be evil--and no good man accepts a wicked master.

The question of what is good, what is moral, is complicated by the fact that we are ignorant of most of the things we would need to know to answer the question. Our capacity to predict the future is greatly limited, yet is essential to any decisive answer as to what is right and wrong. Our ability to know the secret thoughts of others is also limited, and just as essential, and so on. Thus, the ability to do the right thing, to even know what the right thing is, will depend upon your wisdom and knowledge, which will never be complete. The degree to which you really know the consequences of what you do, and the significance of what you embody when you do it, will determine the degree to which you can ascertain what is right or wrong in any given case, and that is hard to put down on paper.

The complexity of moral thought, like the complexity of other crafts and enterprises, is thus often replaced with rules which various experts have learned to be the most useful or universal. But just as no man can be good at anything simply by learning the rules, true morality cannot be found in them. Rather, it is found in wisdom and a skilled intuition. Even a chessmaster must know much more than the rules of chess if he is to be a good player. But in morality, the rules cannot even be fixed. Any set rule can fall upon an exception. Thou shalt not murder--but what if you must kill a villain to save an innocent? And any set rule suffers from the flaw of ambiguity. What if you kill by mistake? Rules are useful because they allow us to act quickly when we lack the time to think something through. And when we practice at the rules long enough, they become instinctual, and thus even more effective--assuming the rules were good ones in the first place. For there are such things as bad ideas which seemed at first to be good ones, and these can become bad habits which are hard to break, even when we discover their faults.

Atheists know this. They seek moral truth not in rules, which are merely man-made expedients devised for those cases when one must act without thinking. They seek it in broader principles. No matter what language or what philosophy an atheist uses when he outlines his moral beliefs, every atheist I have known has always fallen back upon the one concept echoed worldwide, and taught by religious and secular leaders throughout all time: the famous "Golden Rule." Jesus was repeating an old Jewish proverb when he said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," and Confucius was recording an old Chinese saying when he wrote "Do not do to others what you would not want done to you." All atheist systems of morality seem to derive in various ways from this core principle, and so it would be appropriate to say that atheists stand for the Golden Rule in its fullest meaning and significance. I believe that any rule or belief which violates this principle is discarded by most atheists as immoral, and they live up to that ideal more than a great many believers do.

I have my own belief as to why this is so, and I will end with this. For the religious are always charging that atheists have no reason to be moral, no reason to hold the Golden Rule as their highest moral ideal. It could be proven at length that the religious actually have no better reason to be moral than atheists do, but I devote myself to that task elsewhere [see Reasons to be Moral]. For here it is enough to explain why I think atheists stand for the Golden Rule, or at least why they ought to. When we see a wicked person, someone who disrespects or mistreats another, who causes misery rather than happiness, we hate them. These feelings of loathing are natural and inescapable--for we could never be happy ourselves if we did not loathe the enemies of happiness. But it is not the actual evildoer that we hate as much as the kind of person who does such a thing. And there's the rub. For as soon as we become such a person, those same feelings of loathing will again be inescapable, but now they will be feelings of self-loathing, and one who hates himself, at any level of his being, will always be handicapped, even sabotaged, in his own quest for happiness. He will find himself falling all too easily into misery or crippling delusion, and his life will all too often be difficult and unsatisfying.

But look to the other side of the matter. For when we see a good person, someone who embodies virtues we love to see, who causes happiness rather than misery, we love them--indeed, we love the very kind of person who would do that. And when we become such a person, we come to love ourselves--in the way we ought to, with respect and humble satisfaction. We will then not have to work for our happiness nearly as much, for genuine self-respect brings its own happiness. And the return in love, affection, and respect from others that our virtues generate will also expand and protect our sphere of happiness. Unlike the wicked, the good man will find himself stumbling into happiness, and he will bounce back from misery almost by nature. And even when miserable, if he has paid attention the good man will already know what must be done to recover, and how to make the best of his situation until he does. And so it is that the Golden Rule is merely an expression of a basic fact of human psychology: if we embody what we already hate, we will hate ourselves, and be hated by others, but if we embody what we love and respect, we will love and respect ourselves, and be loved and respected by others in turn. We might thus restate the Golden Rule most simply: be a hero, not a villain. For this is the way to be happy.

Conclusion

Atheists ought to stand for inquiry and doubt. They ought to stand for logic and sound empirical method as the only things capable of sorting true facts from false, to every reasonable person's satisfaction. They ought to stand for the humility to admit ignorance, and the wisdom to not assume too much, as well as the consequent political reality that finding common ground and negotiating differences is far wiser, and better for all, than maintaining adamant opposition on matters that do not even warrant an adamant opinion in the first place. The atheist ought to stand for using faith as justification for inquiry rather than belief. And the atheist ought to stand for happiness, and the understanding and accomplishment that are needed to achieve it. Above all, the atheist ought to stand for being a hero to himself and his fellow humans, rather than a villain. I believe that when the reasons for these values are truly understood, any man would hold to them and keep them, even if god himself appeared and ended all dispute as to his existence. Indeed, I believe an atheist ought to live her life so she can say with all sincerity, "even if God's existence were proven, I would change only my understanding of the facts, and not the values by which I guide my conduct and thought."


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One of my favorite themes

One of my favorite themes is also the "Ethics of Ethics". I very much enjoyed this text, thank you. 

I do have this position in Ethics. Richard Carries says that; To give an adequate response in a moral context one has to know everything possible about the situation, even the possible future outcomes! This is true! However I don't stop here. Richard Carrier words tell me moral can be rationalized, if it can be rationalized it can be objectified; thus ethics are objective.

"But in morality, the rules cannot even be fixed. Any set rule can fall upon an exception. " Exactly! But this doesn't prove ethics is purely subjective in essence. Purely subjective is if chocolate tastes better than vanilla because it is not inherently bad or good whatever the choice. Killing on the other hand can be inherently good or bad. Meta-ethics is about intrinsic values of things, like life. Funny thing is Richard speaks as if there was objective moral standards but reasons that moral is subjective. 

A Universal moral code is a code which encompasses the rule and all the exceptions, ambiguities and contexts. It is theoretically possible and given the apparent conditions of Ethics reality it exists, because there is always the best outcome. This best outcome often doesn't materialize because we lack moral "perfection" and omniscience of the situation.

I was surprised to see the Golden Rule here... but not so much... we all have a longing for Love, even atheists. When we meet this Love source face to face our beliefs will be one.

But... just to spice this a bit... Even the Golden rule is relative: a masochist following this rule would hurt others for he wanted to be hurt too...

Objective moral as opposed to subjective makes perfect sense to me... I just don't understand why atheists run way from it as if it burns...

"If there is no god , then everything is permitted." - Dostoevsky 

He was actually right, but his quote is biased. It should read: "Without intrinsic values, everything is permitted". If there aren't intrinsic values moral is an intuitive nonsense. The only moral is of your sidearm - this is just crazy. Moral isn't just about self satisfaction (as shown by the masochist example) or even the masses self satisfaction (Rome circus). Actions have intrinsic values independent of the person opinion of each one of us.

The biggest clash between theists and atheists ought to be the afterlife/oblivion contrasting scenario. This lies precisely in the fact that we humans are not omniscient. If we knew for sure that there is an afterlife or on the contrary, oblivion awaits us, we could agree on many moral choices. If we live forever or not greatly influences and determines the best moral choices in many situations. For starters if I was an atheist I would be more of a selfish "dick".

Every atheist knows that there are things that are just wrong no matter what, but even then they reject moral objectivity as if it's a scary haunting that points to a God. The proof of the existence of intrinsic values is that most of us worry about our moral conduct and work on values like, love, kindness, etc

 


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Teralek wrote:One of my

Teralek wrote:

One of my favorite themes is also the "Ethics of Ethics". I very much enjoyed this text, thank you. 

I do have this position in Ethics. Richard Carries says that; To give an adequate response in a moral context one has to know everything possible about the situation, even the possible future outcomes! This is true! However I don't stop here. Richard Carrier words tell me moral can be rationalized, if it can be rationalized it can be objectified; thus ethics are objective.

"But in morality, the rules cannot even be fixed. Any set rule can fall upon an exception. " Exactly! But this doesn't prove ethics is purely subjective in essence. Purely subjective is if chocolate tastes better than vanilla because it is not inherently bad or good whatever the choice. Killing on the other hand can be inherently good or bad. Meta-ethics is about intrinsic values of things, like life. Funny thing is Richard speaks as if there was objective moral standards but reasons that moral is subjective. 

A Universal moral code is a code which encompasses the rule and all the exceptions, ambiguities and contexts. It is theoretically possible and given the apparent conditions of Ethics reality it exists, because there is always the best outcome. This best outcome often doesn't materialize because we lack moral "perfection" and omniscience of the situation.

I was surprised to see the Golden Rule here... but not so much... we all have a longing for Love, even atheists. When we meet this Love source face to face our beliefs will be one.

But... just to spice this a bit... Even the Golden rule is relative: a masochist following this rule would hurt others for he wanted to be hurt too...

Objective moral as opposed to subjective makes perfect sense to me... I just don't understand why atheists run way from it as if it burns...

"If there is no god , then everything is permitted." - Dostoevsky 

He was actually right, but his quote is biased. It should read: "Without intrinsic values, everything is permitted". If there aren't intrinsic values moral is an intuitive nonsense. The only moral is of your sidearm - this is just crazy. Moral isn't just about self satisfaction (as shown by the masochist example) or even the masses self satisfaction (Rome circus). Actions have intrinsic values independent of the person opinion of each one of us.

The biggest clash between theists and atheists ought to be the afterlife/oblivion contrasting scenario. This lies precisely in the fact that we humans are not omniscient. If we knew for sure that there is an afterlife or on the contrary, oblivion awaits us, we could agree on many moral choices. If we live forever or not greatly influences and determines the best moral choices in many situations. For starters if I was an atheist I would be more of a selfish "dick".

Every atheist knows that there are things that are just wrong no matter what, but even then they reject moral objectivity as if it's a scary haunting that points to a God. The proof of the existence of intrinsic values is that most of us worry about our moral conduct and work on values like, love, kindness, etc

 

How can there be moral objectivity if it's alleged author pretty much does what it wants to?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Free will as nothing to do

Free will as nothing to do with the intrinsic value of say, friendship, patience, a slap in the face... etc. The choice is yours, it is in your control... the outcome is not. The outcome is what you get, consciently or not as a consequence of your actions. This is the true source of ethics and can be rationalized and objectified. The choice is yours to make. It only in this sense that moral codes and insights make any sense at all.


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Teralek wrote:  "If there

Teralek wrote:

 

 

"If there is no god , then everything is permitted." - Dostoevsky 

And if there is a god, then everything is permitted. You just have to pick a god that allows what you want to do or at least one that forgives you if you do it.

Theism really is moral relativism because their is no god that comes down from heaven, shows his power to the whole world and tells us what rules are. It is based on what god you pick.

A morality based on measurable results and a defined goal would not be relative.

Teralek wrote:

If we live forever or not greatly influences and determines the best moral choices in many situations. For starters if I was an atheist I would be more of a selfish "dick".

If one believes in heaven and hell, are not all decisions still based on being a selfish "dick"? You can mistreat people in this world because your reward is in the next. You don't need to worry about getting along with real people because only the opinion of invisible people count? Isn't this way of thinking why we get 9/11 hijackers?

Teralek wrote:

Every atheist knows that there are things that are just wrong no matter what, but even then they reject moral objectivity as if it's a scary haunting that points to a God. The proof of the existence of intrinsic values is that most of us worry about our moral conduct and work on values like, love, kindness, etc

 

I don't believe in right or wrong. I believe in something is harmful or helpful to common goals like social harmony, the opportunity to enjoy life.

We worry about these things because they enhance our survival. You are always being a "selfish dick", you can either be in the closet or out of the closet about this reality.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Teralek

EXC wrote:

Teralek wrote:

 

 

"If there is no god , then everything is permitted." - Dostoevsky 

And if there is a god, then everything is permitted. You just have to pick a god that allows what you want to do or at least one that forgives you if you do it.

Theism really is moral relativism because their is no god that comes down from heaven, shows his power to the whole world and tells us what rules are. It is based on what god you pick.

A morality based on measurable results and a defined goal would not be relative.

Teralek wrote:

If we live forever or not greatly influences and determines the best moral choices in many situations. For starters if I was an atheist I would be more of a selfish "dick".

If one believes in heaven and hell, are not all decisions still based on being a selfish "dick"? You can mistreat people in this world because your reward is in the next. You don't need to worry about getting along with real people because only the opinion of invisible people count? Isn't this way of thinking why we get 9/11 hijackers?

 

Teralek wrote:

Every atheist knows that there are things that are just wrong no matter what, but even then they reject moral objectivity as if it's a scary haunting that points to a God. The proof of the existence of intrinsic values is that most of us worry about our moral conduct and work on values like, love, kindness, etc

 

 

I don't believe in right or wrong. I believe in something is harmful or helpful to common goals like social harmony, the opportunity to enjoy life.

We worry about these things because they enhance our survival. You are always being a "selfish dick", you can either be in the closet or out of the closet about this reality.

ECX what I'm saying is that it is possible to exist a God and a Universe that possesses intrinsic moral values. I'm not defining a specific God

 

You are being biased. I'm not talking about religions but philosophy. I can fell and understand your hanger towards religions. I abject any God who rewards mistreat of people... my research shows that if there is a thing that we may call a God that does not happen, in fact, this 'God' that I believe does not judge anyone what so ever. Of course there is right or wrong and I know that you know that in your heart!

At some points in life we are capable of actions that are completely selfless and loving towards others. Just love for the sake of love... ultimately for the sake of compassion... when compassion flows it ultimately flows both ways, this is not selfish... you can either be in the closet or out of the closet about this reality.

 


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Teralek wrote:  ECX what

Teralek wrote:

 

 

ECX what I'm saying is that it is possible to exist a God and a Universe that possesses intrinsic moral values. I'm not defining a specific God

 

It is possible to exist a Universe where 2 + 2 = 5. Such a universe is non sense in our frame of reference.

Teralek wrote:

Of course there is right or wrong and I know that you know that in your heart!

 

All evidence is that our decision of what is right and wrong is a result of the evolutionary process to maximize our survival. So survival is the only right and wrong that exists.

Teralek wrote:

At some points in life we are capable of actions that are completely selfless and loving towards others. Just love for the sake of love... ultimately for the sake of compassion... when compassion flows it ultimately flows both ways, this is not selfish... you can either be in the closet or out of the closet about this reality.

 

Not what the science tells us at all. All actions and motivations can be mapped to enhanced survivability of the individual's genes or the tribe(hence the common genes) of the individual. Love and compassion are associated with the good feeling that come with social acceptance(which enhances survivability).

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/29/brazilian-ants-sacrifice-a-few-relatives-each-day-for-the-greater-good/ 

So are you telling us that these ants are moral, while insects that don't do this are amoral or immoral?

Can you name a unselfish action ever performed that that was believed to be a hindrance to survival? An action that was ever performed that was not based on feeling better?

 

 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:It is possible to

EXC wrote:

It is possible to exist a Universe where 2 + 2 = 5. Such a universe is non sense in our frame of reference.

Empty and unrelated statment.

EXC wrote:
All evidence is that our decision of what is right and wrong is a result of the evolutionary process to maximize our survival.

Precisely. Evolution favours intrinsic values to some extent! There are some however that aren't caused by evolution alone, but by reasoning too.

 

EXC wrote:
Not what the science tells us at all. All actions and motivations can be mapped to enhanced survivability of the individual's genes or the tribe(hence the common genes) of the individual. Love and compassion are associated with the good feeling that come with social acceptance(which enhances survivability).

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/09/29/brazilian-ants-sacrifice-a-few-relatives-each-day-for-the-greater-good/ 

So are you telling us that these ants are moral, while insects that don't do this are amoral or immoral?

Can you name a unselfish action ever performed that that was believed to be a hindrance to survival? An action that was ever performed that was not based on feeling better?

Is science God? Can you imagine a behaviour or motivation that is not "mapped to enhanced survivability of the individual's genes or the tribe(hence the common genes) of the individual"? I have a feeling that you can't, thus it is not falsifiable! Anything I say you respond with the determinism of a "philosophical zombie". How come an untestified act of compassion towards a person whitout her knowledge contributes to social acceptance?

I doubt Gandhi was feeling great at times he almost died of famine. I can argue that a person can help other for nothing and not expecting any reward. This has definatly happened.

 

 

 

  


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EXC wrote:    So survival

EXC wrote:

 

   So survival is the only right and wrong that exists.

   How easily that maps onto the current situation in Mexico.  Various drug cartels are vying for survival against the interests of competing cartels who also want to survive.  If kidnapping rival gang members, law enforcement officials, innocent citizens, etc and viciously tormenting them with unimaginable cruelty, dismembering them and strewing their fragmented remains in public increases a gang's chance of survival, then so be it.

  There's nothing wrong with that.  Shit, why even bother trying to prevent it ?


mellestad
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And American's ought to

And American's ought to stand for democracy, capitalism and apple pie.

 

I don't understand why people keep hopefully defining atheists as whatever particular flavor of atheistic, naturalist, rationalist, Humanist, whateverist the speaker happens to belong to.  Atheists ought not believe/do anything.  Why would disbelief in a deity automatically make you a rationalist with a particular moral system?

Maybe I'm just bitter today.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.