Bush, Republicans destroyed economy
Offline I am 71 years old, and have voted Republican more times than Democrat. But I believe the Bush administration is responsible for destroying our economy by getting our nation into a war with Iraq and giving tax cuts we could not afford to the rich. It took the Republican administration eight years to destroy our economy and neither President Obama nor any other president can get us out of this mess in 21 months. I believe Obama's policies are working, but it will take time. I also believe if the Republicans take control of Congress in November, it will be just a matter of time before we seniors see Social Security privatized or our benefits cut. Medicare would be next.
~ T.R. Hilleren
http://www.jacksonsun.com/article/20100912/OPINION03/9120309
- Login to post comments
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
On that day I became an anarchist
And since then I have mellowed out quite a bit 
Now I'm just thinking of going Galt 
"keynesians are to economics what witch doctors are to medicine" -Peter Schiff
As opposed to the rule of conservative economics that assumes that the rich people are using their vast wealth to support the counties where they're based and hire all those skilled enough to work in the countries where they are headquartered?
Oh, yes, they're all damn near penniless because they are such altruistic beings. true giants among men.
Now that's a daydream. Why do you stay in it?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
on the question of liberal economists versus conservative economists..... theres no such thing
economists should be classified by their school of thought
rich people save and invest their money, which leads to many great things for an economy
rich people also give alot to charity
why the disdain for "the rich"
to me anyways it seems the rich people most folks are pissed off about are rich precisely because of the government
Who cares if a factory is in the US or overseas? It isn't a fixed pie. Just because there are jobs overseas does not mean there cannot also be jobs here. Sometimes it is cheaper to build something overseas and ship it here. Other times it is easier to just build it here. Who cares? I don't care if my jeans are made in the US, China, Indonesia or Timbuktu. I certainly don't want to make my jeans myself so I go to the store and buy whatever strikes my fancy.
My point is that the rich don't need to be penniless to benefit society. Even if a product is made overseas it has to be shipped, stored, stocked and sold here. Which employs people. If they are willing to do it for less, let them. More junk for us. How are we poorer from getting more stuff cheaper?
Rich people can't help but stimulate the economy. If they consume they stimulate the economy, if they loan money they stimulate the economy, if they invest in a new business they stimulate the economy, if they put their money in the bank they stimulate the economy. Generally, a wealthy person doesn't save their money in a coffee can or put it in the mattress (except drug dealers and the mafia). No one is hired by a poor person. It is because of rich people that we enjoy the highest standard of living in the world. Even our "poor" are extremely well off compared to most of the worlds population even now.
Now I do need to differentiate between the person who is a capitalist and those who are political entrepreneurs. The capitalist is the one who makes money from the consumer. The political entrepreneur is the one who gets their money from the government. The former creates jobs and provides quality products inexpensively. The latter might not produce much of anything. They get their money from the government because of political connections regardless of whether or not they produce products that are desired. The latter is the kind that got our trillion dollar stimulus and will benefit from Bamacare and all the other government programs we are implementing. I did a rather thorough post on the difference between the two that were around in the late 19th and early 20th centuries a few weeks ago. Bring back the good capitalist robber barons please.
If we could eliminate the "progressive" income tax and government subsidies maybe we could see it again.
It is Keynesian logic that led to us destroying thousands of perfectly good cars with the cash for clunkers program. Think about it. We paid people to destroy a bunch of cars believing it would make us wealthier. In what world does destroying your car make you wealthier? FDR did the same thing when he had pigs slaughtered simply to reduce the supply so that the cost of pork would go up. The meat wasn't sold. Just thrown away. How did that make the economy better? Keynesians believe it did. That is how fucked up they are.
They claim that the recession is over because GDP started going up a tiny bit. But they count government spending in GDP. Since the government is borrowing to spend that money it doesn't really exist. Say you had an income of 30k and a credit card with a 10k limit and you spent 40k did your income go up? Of course not. Your 10k in debt. In the same situation, the Keynesians claim that GDP has gone up. They ignore that much of the GDP comes from government spending (debt). Then everyone wonders why there are no new jobs. The recession isn't over. The "experts" like Paul Krugman will probably cover their tracks by calling it a double dip and blaming the Republican congress for blocking Bama's wonderful agenda. But really, it will just be a continuation of the recession. Which will continue for the same reason the Great Depression continued so damn long. Because we are listening to the Keynesians.
It isn't even over for the housing market. Just this week it was reported that all of the major home lenders have stopped the foreclosure process. Until all those bad loans are foreclosed on the housing bubble is still there. There are a ton of houses ready to go on the foreclosure market which will cause a glut of supply in the housing market. High supply means lower prices. Which means everyones house that is already low in value is going to go even lower. Until that happens anyone with an ounce of sense is going to wait to purchase a house because they know prices will go down.
And why aren't businesses hiring? Maybe its because Congress didn't even hold a vote on the tax rates. As it stands right now, ALL of the Bush tax cuts will expire which sets up the largest tax increase in history. Tax increases cause a slowing economy. If your potential consumers will have less to spend next year, why would you invest in expanding today? You will wait until the increase hits, then do your market research to determine if expanding will be profitable. Add onto that the fact that no one knows exactly how high insurance rates are going to go with Bamacare. Before a business expands, a lot of thought and study goes into determining if it will be profitable. Until you have clear information on what your costs will be and what your consumers are likely to do you will not commit millions of dollars to expanding. You don't just open a new store and cross your fingers, unless of course you got your money from the government.
I'm done ranting for now. I can go on forever.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
very good post
id add about the tax rates on people making 250K plus
if you increase their rates its a disincentive to expand, we want people to expand, increase productivity, employ more folks, what the govt is saying is "you want to expand your business? hire more people? make more money? dont bother. because if you do we are going to take more of your hard earned dollars to squander"
And all we have to do to bring jobs back to America is accept Chinese wages and labor laws, right?
Funny how the tax rates on the 250k+ went up under Clinton and the economy ran like a damn freight train, isn't it?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No. The number of jobs isn't fixed. If someone in China is already making your clothes, make something else. For example, the US is one of only a handful of countries that produces excess food. So go be a farmer. Hell, we've been allowing people to illegally enter our country and not pay taxes because there were so many jobs that "Americans won't do" in the farming, ranching and construction industries. What we need is for the marketplace correction to take place free of government interference. People who invest will do market research to determine what products have a profitable demand and invest in making those. Because the one thing you can count on rich people for is they want their money to make more money. The only limit to the number of jobs that can be created. The 90's should have proven that. We had more free trade agreements, more jobs "going over seas" than ever but still had full employment. Protectionism harms all countries involved and leads to higher prices and lower real wages for the consumer. In other news, we have started a trade war with China. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-trade-war-spirals-as-china-imposes-massive-1054-tariff-on-american-poultry-2010-9 We put a tariff on their tires so they put a tariff on our chicken. If this continues and becomes an all out trade war what is the result? Well everything you currently buy that is made in China or contains materials from China will be significantly more expensive. Now are you wealthier? Can you buy as many things as you could before? No. You will go to the store and everything will cost a lot more and you will bitch about the evil greedy capitalist when you can't buy as much as you once could. On top of that, we lose jobs in every sector that becomes involved in the trade war. Just what we need, more unemployed. 10.5% isn't high enough lets aim for 20%! (Unless of course you count people who have given up looking for work, then we are almost at 20 already lets aim for 30%!) Bama creates jobs like I golf. My scores higher than yours, I win!
You can raise taxes in an economy that is booming, and unless you raise them a ton it will not make a huge difference. If the economy is growing at 6% and you raise taxes it might slow to 5% growth, not horrible. If the economy is only growing at 0.75% or shrinking and you raise taxes the same amount your economy is now shrinking and you created a problem. So while many in my camp will constantly harp about lowering taxes I don't lose sleep over a tax increase in a booming economy. Just recognize that when you raise taxes it has a slowing effect on the economy. Clinton's tax increase was also aptly timed because as it went into effect we entered NAFTA which was a boost to the economy. So while doing something to slow the economy he also did something that spurred the economy resulting in a fairly solid economy. Combined with Clinton's desire to remain being President that caused him to give up the more liberal causes of universal healthcare and giving in to welfare reform you ended up with a fairly decent President. All President's should be more interested in getting blowjobs than ruining the country. If Obama would agree to just stop working, I'm sure I could raise enough money to keep hookers going into his office 24 hours a day.
Now compare what Clinton did to what Bama is doing. Clinton raised taxes in a booming economy and offset it with a free trade agreement and did not drastically increase government spending. More money coming into the government, not as much spending going out and a growing economy and wow a surplus. Magic. He did continue to appoint that idiot Greenspan to the fed which was a large part of what led to our current recession but that is another topic. Bama is increasing taxes (bad for economy) potentially on everyone (really bad for the economy), spending more on new entitlements than a drunken sailor (bad for the economy) and starting trade wars (bad for the economy). All this in an economy that is already weak. It would be enough to ruin a booming economy, it will be devastating to a weak economy. We really need to get him an intern.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
In other news http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/7/deficit-hits-almost-13-trillion-fiscal-2010/
Government spending rose 9% in 2010, how much did your income go up? Our government spent $3.453 trillion of which $1.291 trillion was borrowed. How long could you survive if you borrowed over one third of your income every year? Our national debt is now at $13.625 trillion and interest alone is $228 billion per year. In other words, if we put EVERY penny that goes into the government towards paying off the debt it would take 7 years to pay it off. That would be shutting down every government service and doing nothing but paying off debt. If we treated it like a 30 year mortgage we would have to pay $580 billion per year or 26.8% of every dollar the government collects towards paying off the debt. Which would require a 45.8% across the board spending cut. If you walked into a debt counselors office with those kind of numbers they would tell you to declare bankruptcy. This is before we even talk about the cost of the healthcare entitlement or the fact that Social Security and Medicare will both reach the point where they will be paying out more than they collect before the debt is paid off. Even the evil rich don't have enough money unless we do something radical soon.
And what do you think happens when people decide it is a bad idea to loan money to the US government? Interest rates get even higher. It would be the largest spending cuts in history if we simply cut the $1.291 trillion we currently borrow (it would be a 37% cut). Note, the debt was that high even though a substantial amount of TARP was paid back in 2010. Next year we aren't getting anything from TARP.
WAKE UP Americans. If we want to keep our standard of living we have to do something NOW.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Increasing taxes bad for the economy? You went one paragraph and contradicted yourself. The economy wasn't booming until Clinton increased the tax rate (ever so slightly, I might add) on the uppercrust. No, he did not increase spending all that much. - would you mind telling your friend on this thread that spending cuts alone do not stimulate anything?
What is Obama doing? Increasing revenue by letting deep tax cuts for wealthy folks go away. He is spending on stuff like jobs and infrastructure when he should be taking money out of a defense budget that hasn't needed it for years (personally, I think we've run out of brown people to bomb). Why is it that I never hear conservatives of any stripe mention that little detail?
Trade wars? You mean because he doesn't want unsafe vehicles on America's highways? Damn him for wanting to save lives! Because he wants people to buy American made products? That infrastructure repairing son of a bitch!
I think we both agree that NAFTA was stupid. It more than likely wouldn't have happened if Republicans weren't so paranoid about the EU (yes I know Clinton signed it. I consider him the best Republican president we've had - thanks Mike Malloy)
Would you be as disturbed by these actions if a conservative was taking them? Or would they not have gone far enough?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
In 1992 the economy grew 3.3% in 1993 it grew 2.8% according to our governments numbers. Then it stabilized and grew every year at a rate around 3.5% until 9/11, then it was spurred back and resumed healthy growth until 2008 when the housing bubble burst and GW's bailouts destroyed the economy and it hasn't gotten better since.
So yes, the tax increase slowed the growth in the economy. It happens every time. As you point out it was a small increase so it didn't have a devastating effect. And I don't think anyone is arguing that spending cuts alone stimulate. Cutting taxes stimulates, but it is probably impossible to cut taxes enough to get us out of our current hole especially if we keep spending like this. So spending cuts have to come first. Excess government debt does cause a drag on the economy because business owners know they are going to get the bill sooner or later.
Yes the wars were a waste of money, I agree with you. But just because Bush wasted money doesn't make it right for Bama to do the same. We know Bush was a mental midget. So stop copying him. So there, you have heard me mention it but I don't really call myself conservative. The one thing I supported Bama on was ending the wars and the bastard still hasn't done it.
Bama is spending on cronies that his government likes. Even if you accept the absurd 3.7 million jobs saved figure it works out to around $270k per job. Do you seriously think most people who have a job that got some stimulus money make 270k per year? And that is taking Bama at his word that 3.7 million people would have lost their jobs which any economist worth their salt will laugh at. You give a business owner an extra 270k and he/she will hire more than one person. And raising taxes will not have as large effect on increasing revenue as predicted. The CBO never accounts for the disincentive taxes bring to making income. So we will be taking a higher percentage but the number that percentage comes out of will be lower. With the economy as bad as it is, I wouldn't be surprised if a massive tax increase actually caused lower revenue for the government. I believe it is a huge mistake to raise taxes in an economy that is already struggling, especially one as large as the one coming.
Tax cuts often lead to higher revenue for the government. Revenue to the government went up after the Bush tax cuts. The bottom line is that government isn't going to get the money it needs unless the economy flourishes. So we need to do what is best for the economy first and determine if raising taxes is necessary later.
What do safety standards have to do with anything? We didn't put tariffs on tires from China because they were unsafe. He did it to please the unions. The result is a higher price for consumers who want to buy tires and the American tire industry has not seen an appreciable increase in business while our chicken farmers are now getting an appreciable decrease in business. Free trade always helps both parties involved. If your income is 10% higher it doesn't mean a thing if everything you buy costs 20% more. You have more money but can afford less so in real terms you are poorer.
No we can't. I think NAFTA was great. It kept our economy growing, much like our free trade agreement with China and when Reagan stopped the trade war with Japan.
I think Bush is on the short list of worst President's ever. Slightly below Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Theodore Roosevelt, Obama, Jimmy Carter then GW. Bama is working his way up the list and might make number one or two. And if it wasn't for him Bush would be top 5. Yes, I was screaming during the Bush administration conservatives get no special protection from me. I was screaming about the housing bubble and our addiction to low interest rates long before the collapse and everyone thought I was crazy. Well, I didn't lose my money in the market and have little sympathy for those who did.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
1. You mean raising the interest rates to avoid a superheating economy did nothing to slow it down? It was all the tax increases on the people and corporations (legally recognized people) that didn't pay their share to begin with?
2. I agree with you on Obama not copying Bush on war and wasting money. Why is it cool to copy Bush's bad idea to cut taxes on the rich (who again don't pay their share to begin with)?
3. Safety standards the reason for the trade issues with Mexico. Some Mexican truckers (Ok a lot of Mexican truckers) are driving vehicles that shouldn't be allowed on any roads. Because the Mexican government and the maquiladoras they serve don't want to make the trucks safe, they slap tariffs on us.
4. NAFTA kept our economy growing? Really? I didn't realize you were an expat living in Mexico. I will agree those agreements did change our economy. We went from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. We went from a creditor nation to a debtor nation. Not sure that those are good changes.
5. You have no sympathy with those who lost money inthe market crash and yet you want people to put their retirement incomes in the hands of that same market?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The fed cut interest rates substantially in 1991 and 1992 and didn't touch them in 1993. It didn't start raising them until the end of 1994 then went back to cutting them in 1996 under the theory that we needed to keep cutting them to keep the economy going. It then raised them 1% in 2000 and has been cutting them ever since. So the growth in 1993 was not affected by any change in the interest rates because there wasn't one.
We are not talking about more tax cuts. We are talking about not raising taxes. People who are paying 35% this year will be paying 39.6% next year. That is an increase from where they are right now. The economy doesn't care that the current rates are the result of a tax cut passed 10 years ago. An increase in taxes will slow the economy. Since it is already in the tank I don't think putting salt on the wound helps or is a good idea since our stated goal is to create jobs.
We were talking about the tariffs on China. Mexico is barely a functioning government right now. I would love to talk about each and every trade agreement we have with every country but you probably don't honestly want to have that conversation.
Yes, it did. NAFTA was with Canada as well. We make a ton of money sending corn to Mexico every year. And we are still a manufacturing country. This is one of the biggest myths. The US manufacturing output was $1.8 trilliion worth and Mexico's was only $144 billion. Basically, we could buy everything Mexico makes with only a little more than half of the interest we pay on our debt. We are the largest manufacturer in the world, the only country that is close to us is China. And we still account for 27% of manufacturing in the world. So all those jobs we "lost" to Mexico simply didn't happen. Yes, some companies moved down there. So what. We build or retool factories to make something different. The reason manufacturing jobs have suffered so much is that most American factories are highly automated. We use these fancy things called computers that allow one person to do a job that used to take several people. Those damned computers have taken away more jobs than any Mexican.
No, I have said before and will say again that people putting money into the stock market as their sole retirement fund are idiots. Putting money in the stock market is gambling just as much as playing poker. If you can't afford to lose the money you shouldn't put it in the market. Unfortunately, our government has pursued tax policies and legislation designed to encourage 401ks to invest in the stock market instead of safer more secure investments. The result is millions of people have money in the stock market and to make it worse, most of them don't even know what stocks they are invested in. Which is why stock price is no longer a solid indication of the quality of the company. Wall street brokers make more money gambling than they do investing in solid long term companies. If you don't know exactly what companies you are invested in and why you have no business in the stock market. For your retirement I would advise putting far less into the market than most people do. A little is fine for the chance at great growth, but make sure the other money you have is enough for your retirement.
Remember May 6th? The stock market collapsed 1000 points and everyone has brushed it off as a "computer error" that started the run. People on Wall Street know that they are playing with fire. It collapsed because a ton of people have their finger on the sell button and the second they believe anything is happening they are getting their money out. Whether it was started by a computer error or not it demonstrates that the big money on Wallstreet is prepared for a crash. Guess who's shares were not sold. If the end is coming do you think your broker is going to worry about his shares or yours first? So personally, I wouldn't recommend having a lot of money in the market right now. But it is your retirement. If you want to eat canned tuna thats your business.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Then again, interest rates were around 5-7% under Clinton and were cut to 0-1% under Bush. a drop from 7 to 5 is larger than a drop from 5-0. Still doesn't seem like the Clinton economy was all that bad.
We are not talking about more tax cuts. We are talking about not raising taxes. People who are paying 35% this year will be paying 39.6% next year. That is an increase from where they are right now. The economy doesn't care that the current rates are the result of a tax cut passed 10 years ago. An increase in taxes will slow the economy. Since it is already in the tank I don't think putting salt on the wound helps or is a good idea since our stated goal is to create jobs.
No, we're talking about unneeded cuts going away and a resulting boost in revenue. Besides, how can you slow a stagnant economy down? You are also assuming that most of the people affected by this tax (I use this term loosely because they won't feel the increase) affect job creation.
We were talking about the tariffs on China. Mexico is barely a functioning government right now. I would love to talk about each and every trade agreement we have with every country but you probably don't honestly want to have that conversation.
Actually we were talking about both - the tariffs on China because they're treating their citizens like shit and buggering their exchange rate fraudulently I have no problem with. I like the fair market over the free market.
Yes, it did. NAFTA was with Canada as well. We make a ton of money sending corn to Mexico every year. And we are still a manufacturing country. This is one of the biggest myths. The US manufacturing output was $1.8 trilliion worth and Mexico's was only $144 billion. Basically, we could buy everything Mexico makes with only a little more than half of the interest we pay on our debt. We are the largest manufacturer in the world, the only country that is close to us is China. And we still account for 27% of manufacturing in the world. So all those jobs we "lost" to Mexico simply didn't happen. Yes, some companies moved down there. So what. We build or retool factories to make something different. The reason manufacturing jobs have suffered so much is that most American factories are highly automated. We use these fancy things called computers that allow one person to do a job that used to take several people. Those damned computers have taken away more jobs than any Mexican.
Yes, we use these called computers that are made in China, Japan and Korea and we we need tech support we get directed to a call center in India. You're right - Mexico is the least of our problems.
No, I have said before and will say again that people putting money into the stock market as their sole retirement fund are idiots. Putting money in the stock market is gambling just as much as playing poker. If you can't afford to lose the money you shouldn't put it in the market. Unfortunately, our government has pursued tax policies and legislation designed to encourage 401ks to invest in the stock market instead of safer more secure investments. The result is millions of people have money in the stock market and to make it worse, most of them don't even know what stocks they are invested in. Which is why stock price is no longer a solid indication of the quality of the company. Wall street brokers make more money gambling than they do investing in solid long term companies. If you don't know exactly what companies you are invested in and why you have no business in the stock market. For your retirement I would advise putting far less into the market than most people do. A little is fine for the chance at great growth, but make sure the other money you have is enough for your retirement.
Remember May 6th? The stock market collapsed 1000 points and everyone has brushed it off as a "computer error" that started the run. People on Wall Street know that they are playing with fire. It collapsed because a ton of people have their finger on the sell button and the second they believe anything is happening they are getting their money out. Whether it was started by a computer error or not it demonstrates that the big money on Wallstreet is prepared for a crash. Guess who's shares were not sold. If the end is coming do you think your broker is going to worry about his shares or yours first? So personally, I wouldn't recommend having a lot of money in the market right now. But it is your retirement. If you want to eat canned tuna thats your business.
Then why do you support people who, if they don't want to scrap social security, want to "invest" it in the stock market?
What investments I have are currently in bonds - I hate betting on the economy to lose but it does bring in money.