Are you an Agnostic, but think you are an atheist? A rebuttal to RationalResponse

Free Radical
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Are you an Agnostic, but think you are an atheist? A rebuttal to RationalResponse

The definition of agnosticism by RationalResponse is a modern corruption used primarily in psychology to describe god claims as ultimately unknowable. The more accepted meaning, and the one defined originally by Thomas Huxley, is that in the absence of evidence you cannot claim to know.

To say you doubt the existence of god is a knowledge claim because you are stating your position on the spectrum between truth and false.  To cast doubt is to simply place yourself closer to the false position. So the question becomes, what evidence do you have to say god does not exist?

If you lack evidence yet feel this doubt in your bones, then you are indeed an atheist. To an agnostic person, an atheist is irrational, though not to the extent as extreme theists who make extraordinary claims with no evidence. 

The argument of double negation used in paragraph two is illogical because of the assumption that there are only two positions you can take; believing or not believing. So why can we not take a third position, which is “I cannot claim to know either way”. This position is perfectly rational and is simply a statement of having no evidence, or that the evidence in your judgement balances equally; in either case it means that you are a traditional agnostic.

How will you answer this question; did I (author) eat cereal today for breakfast? According to your atheist double negation argument, you can only say Yes, or I doubt it. Clearly both positions are inadequate. 

Further, if you feel in your bones that you are closer to the theist position, but accept you have no evidence, then again you are agnostic. It is the admission of “no evidence” that makes you agnostic. In fact this is the very position that Huxley himself took; Discussing Christian doctrine he says “Give me a scintilla of evidence, and I am ready to jump at them”. 

Furthermore, what if your belief system has nothing to do with god? A spiritualist, a mystic, a belief in the interconnectedness of the universe, Serendipity, Synchronicity. The word atheist is totally inadequate because as you rightly state the root derivation of the word theist is “God” and there is no room for those who reject this supreme entity outright. Agnosticism however is compatible because instead of using the archaic concept of God, it uses a broader terminology; “anything beyond and behind material phenomena” (OED).  

By the way, I am more than happy to change my own terminology as it seems many members here have. 

 


Blake
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jcgadfly wrote:I will go

jcgadfly wrote:

I will go further.

People don't have to ascribe supernatural attributes to an object to worship it. I know guys who worship their cars. They buy new toys for them every few months (offerings/sacrifices). They give them luxury wash and wax jobs (special treatment). They spend more time on them than they do with their wives.

The cars are not supernatural objects but they are receiving a form of worship.

 

It's probably not necessary in all cases to ascribe supernatural attributes to something in order to worship it, but in the case where people worship something natural without ascribing to it certain supernatural attributes, I see that more as simple idiocy or infatuation, rather than theism.


Eloise
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 Blake wrote:... note

 

Blake wrote:

... note "ultimate", which (if exclusive) any acknowledgment thereof is inherent recognition of difference, which is the most essential part of worship.

Really? I would consider the essential part of worship is an attribute of the worshipper not of the worshipped. I think the defining characteristic of worship is reverent regard, as, I believe, JC Gadfly is trying to point out.

In my definition ultimate refers to the extremity of the referent's attributes, not its subjective value, there is no inherent implication of reverence there. 

One can value something to the extreme without that thing being of an ultimate nature, if ones regard toward a thing is of ultimate nature and favors the thing it is worship, regardless of the nature of the thing in itself. And one can, as I do, regard a thing as being of an ultimate nature without necessarily raising their regard for it above other things. Just as a person can say with honesty that they dislike money but acknowledge freely that it is a powerful idea or that it 'makes the world go round'. Neutral recognition of a thing's characteristics does not imply worship.  But if that thing is an entity of extraordinary seeming proportions consistent with or based on descriptions of God, when you add belief that it is extant, theism is wholly implied.

 

mellestad wrote:

.. define 'traditional theological work' in a pretty broad way.  I'm interested to see her response about what falls under that term, and why.

 

I believe it is accurate to define theology as religious investigation into the nature of "gods" so a traditional theological work, I would define as the works (Torah, creation stories, revelatory canon etc) born of religious traditions like prayer, midrash, ritual rites etc.

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mellestad
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@Eloise: Thank you for the

@Eloise: Thank you for the clarification.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.