HOW can any sane rational person think Jesus is actually "coming back"?? Have you asked Christians about this??
Offline I can't believe any person living in 2010 can actually think that a figure that was most likely mythical will somehow magically land on earth.
It's like believing a comic book coming to life!!
If someone refers to the bible then just tell them that NOTHING in the bible can be corroborated OUTSIDE the bible i.e. it's just like any other work of fiction.
Also tell them that 95% of scripture is OUTSIDE the bible!! THOUSANDS of pages of scripture is OUTSIDE the bible and there are HUNDREDS of supernatural stories besides this Jesus coming back!!
How can any person in an advanced highly educated country like the U.S. actually believe such obvious MYTHOLOGY??
Do they think Thor, Zeus, Mithras, and Venus are coming back too?? 
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
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I read an interesting fictional historical account of the Vikings who populated Greenland for awhile. Part of the story was about becoming christian and the year 1000 - the first time people were expecting Jesus back. There were discussions about whether to plant that spring or not. Can you imagine? People barely making it as subsistence farmers, supplementing their income by raiding and actually not planting a crop. One of the characters, wiser than most, said to see if there were spring lambs. If so, plant. God wouldn't waste lambs on a earth he was going to abolish. And there were lambs and they planted and no Jesus.
So the date keeps moving forward. I think it is now up to 2035. I was talking to a neighbor in the early 1990s. He thought Jesus would get here in 1996. I haven't seen him since, so I don't know what he thinks now - or even if 1996 was correct - for him.
I often wonder, if you live through a date where the resurrection was supposed to happen and it didn't, how can you justify a new date? How can you believe the yahhoo who is coming up with this nonsense?
edit: correcting grammar and spelling
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
CJ, it's either fictional or historical. It can't be both unless you are trying to say it's partly historical? Is the part about the Vikings expected Jesus around 1000 historical? I was hoping the Vikings were still smart enough to stick with their Nordic roots instead of falling for a fake Palestinian religion.
I actually have a picture of a sign on a utility pole that says Jesus is coming in 1987!! 1987!! I'll try to find that and post it one day.
Jerry Fawell actually said Jesus would come back in his lifetime! He said he and his entire congregation would be able to see Jesus together!
As you know Fawell died without Jesus is still just as dead as ever!!
There are TONS of stories about PROMINENT Christian Clergy over the past 2000 years saying Jesus will come back in their lifetime so WHERE is this imaginary Jesus??
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
Hey, if a bunch of people nailed your ass to two pieces of wood the last time you showed up, you'd be a little skittish about coming back also.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The only problem with the crucifixtion story is it never happened! It's just like a fictional story i.e. absolutely NO historical corroboration outside the bible. Didn't you know not a SINGLE person living at that time during the Roman Empire wrote about a resurrection or even that a guy named Jesus was around! We do have contempary writers from that time who wrote about that era and they don't mention a Jesus, Mary, apostles, etc.
Christianity is such an obvious MYTH but it's taking a long time for the world to find out but it's gotten a lot better since their influence has collapsed the last 300 to 400 years. Christianity once used to control entire continents!!
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
Damn, son!
A guy can't be a wise-ass around you, can they?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I knew you were being sarcastic but it gave me a chance to point out that there's no truth to that famous crucifixtion story. That's ALL it is. A made up story!
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
He (or she?) reminds me of myself back in high school. No sense of sarcasm or social cues. I mostly got over it by making sarcastic friends in university.
The Yeshua character may have been a myth, but seems most likely to be based off some obscure gnostic Jews (probably, as most stories, a combination of several people- it's pretty easy to be 'resurrected' when only some of you are killed), who may have been persecuted at the time (or perhaps a few decades prior to that time). Certainly Saul made up most if not all of what he wrote, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a catalyst who was quite different from that character recorded in the new testament.
Regardless, does it really matter? If there's not enough in the scientific impossibility of a deity, does it matter if there was or wasn't a person going around by that name on whom some of the stories were loosely based? Mass hysteria easily explains the exaggerations and accounts without evoking any conspiracies (even in an age of conspiracies) or deities.
If there was such a person, it doesn't prove any of the "miracles" (there were many 'prophets' and con-artist magicians in those days, just as there are today).
If there wasn't such a person, no amount of evidence to that point (and with merely an absence of evidence, you may find it impossibly difficult to draw conclusive evidence of absence) is likely to convince a believer of that fact if overwhelming science (which is far stronger than our histories in that day, or lack thereof) hasn't already convinced him or her that his or her beliefs are flawed.
1- Rome executed many Jewish rebels and records are minimal.
2- There were many desert wacked out prophets in the 1st century several named jesus.
Or to borrow from Battlestar Galactica - There were many copies.
3 - In the Gospels the time frame (or goal posts) moved.
1st it was, some of you standing here won't taste death before the Kingdom of God comes.
Next it was this generation will not pass before it comes.
Then it is no one but the Father Knows.
[/sarcasm on]
My theory is Jesus' communicator battery had run out and he wasn't in contact with God at the end.
God had switched plans and Jesus was unaware. He clearly expected God to show up or he wouldn't have asked why have you forsaken me as he died without the legions of angels in Zechariah.
Or God was out of range, visiting the far side of the Universe spying on sinners fornicating or such.
Or when Jesus was teleported to God's space ship he was informed of the new plan. Unfortunately the old plan had been widely enough disseminated that to publicly change it was out of the question. They left for the continuous party going on in another part of the Universe and have lost track of time, as time means little to an immortal. Some later date they will return when all have hopefully forgotten the bullshit they pulled on the last visit.[/sarcasam off]
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Don't forget that MANY gods were resurrected before Jesus like Horus, Mithras, Dionysis, Osiris, Tammuz, Isis, and even Krishna! The key word is all this happened before the Jesus story.
It's clear the writers of the bible copied quite a lot from those previous resurrected gods when they wrote about Jesus!
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
You may not have read any of the genre. The idea behind historical fiction is to begin in a period of history, add some dialog, maybe add extra characters, and try to stick to what is known as historical fact. My first encounter was The Black Rose about a guy who traveled to China in the 13th century. After Marco Polo's first journeys. It was a romance as well as the guy found a Chinese girl. Very accurate as to travel and life conditions and so on, but the story and main characters were totally fictional.
Jean Plaidy writes about major historical figures - Anne Boleyn, Catherine di Medici, Queen Victoria and so on. Her plots closely follow the known life histories of these people. But she adds dialog and details that are fictional.
Barbara Hambly writes about early American history - Patriot Wives is about the first 3 first ladies and Sally Hemmings. Again, as close to known history as possible with extra dialog and fleshing out of the stories, making it fictional.
Georgette Heyer - followed by many, many, Harlequin romance writers - started the whole Regency Romance thing. She wrote about imaginary characters, but the historical background and major contemporary historical figures are as true as she could make them.
Finally, alternate the universe genre in sci-fi often leans over into historical fiction. The main character is usually fictional, but minor characters may be major historical figures. These books also try to get the daily living conditions and major historical events as accurate as possible. A fun series of sci-fi books was started by Eric Flint, David Weber coauthored the second and there have been other coauthors since. 1632 is the story of a small town in West Virginia which is transported back in time in situ by a galactic accident perpetrated by aliens. An interesting take on the usual alternate universe plots.
I have no idea where he is and neither does anyone else know. Though, you know, if you ask, you will be told he is in heaven with his father and it is all god's plan which we will find out about in god's own time. Idiots.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
There are several philosophical concepts:
1) Materialism
2) Idealism
Idealism, to which religion belongs, is subdivided into:
a) subjective and
b) objective
From the point of view of subjective idealism, anything can happen, even IPUs marrying FSMs.
I do not think that people who are adepts of subjective idealism should be ashamed in any way. They are just sick people.
Thus, the question of resurrection is the never ending war between objective idealism and materialism. If you believe that there is something beyond material world, like souls etc., then you can ALWAY hide anything that does not fit material reality behind the wall that separates your material and immaterial worlds.
Do you believe that if you fall 10 floors down then you will die? Perhaps yes. But there were real cases when people survived the fall. You did not test it, right? So you cannot tell for sure. Now, how do you know that Jesus did not exist? You ask me about some prove of MY claim that Jesus existed. Right? Fine. Here is my prove. As an objective idealist, I do not see any clear evidence why Jesus did not exist, so there is no any objective reason why not, and I feel (using my idealistic beliefs) that Jesus did exist. Now you need either COMPLETELY eliminate physical possibility of the existence of Jesus (make a time machine or security camera records from Biblical-time Jerusalem), or prove that my idealistic feeling are wrong.
Edit:
The retort I continually recieve is , "All Things are Possible With God"... So that's when I ask them to loan me money.
My experience is that the best way to negotiate most theists is to allow them to come to their own conclusions over time.... being a voice of reason without being condesending works better than you might think...even if you can't see the results immediately.
But I am NOT talking about dealing with your garden variety willfully ignorant, hate filled fundamentalist cum kettles... For people like this, religion is the means to an end, which is usually to mask bigotry with self righteousness and their version of morality...So it is *THESE* folks who deserve your "A LIST" material...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Signature ? How ?
I think I should be well on topic, if I mention the idea of Great White Brotherhood and ancient Mahatmas as they were introduced to the West by madame H. P. Blavatsky and less or more correctly by her succesors.
According to these series of one teaching, this teaching underlies all religions, or their respective mystical orders, rather than the mainstream organized religion. It says, that Heracles, Mithras, Krishna, Buddha and others were either members of GWB responsible for human civilization, or close disciples of GWB under direct guidance or overshadowing. They all were entrusted with task of spreading one symbolical story across ages and civilizations, with characteristic waypoints like crucifixtion, resurrection and ascension. This is, because this story has a relevance to human development. The actual meaning should be explained by mystical orders themselves to those eager to know it, when there is an opportunity. For example, the scene of Jesus being baptisted in river by John Baptist means the stage of development when a person conquers one's own emotional nature, symbolized by water.
Bible, New Testament in particular has some highly cryptic (esoteric) parts and expressions. All of this must be taken in context of reincarnation, this is what 1st century Pharisees believed in and apparently much of the folk in that area.
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)
This is one of several such quotes that can be found in Bible, after dilligent searching. Author of this page did a thorough job on that.
Other references are astronomic and astrologic. Some references, including Apocalypse say something about four creatures with faces of man, eagle, bull and lion. This can be easily interpreted as the axis of Earth with four sides, two of equinoxes, two of solstices. Taking spring equinox as the front due to emphasized symbolics in other quotes, axis of Earth will soon move slowly into the constellation of Aquarius. It's opposite end will enter Leo. One solstice will occur in Taurus and the other... In Scorpio, which was in times of Babylon called Eagle. Astronomic terms are universal language which lasts for ages and might be easily used to specify a time on the sky clock and hide the meaning from ignorant readers. I don't say that Bible isn't a mess of various sources, metaphors, alterations and contradictions, but at least something can be deciphered, as I just demonstrated.
Now, there is at least one person, Ben Creme, who claims that Christ has already returned, "like a thief at night" back in 1977 and supports it by numerous signs on earth and sky. This claimed second coming is necessarily very unorthodox and rather coinciding with prophesies of multiple religions, than fulfilling them all at once which is impossible. Cult of personality or any form of worship is avoided at all costs. Christ must be accepted on the merit of his message and instruction alone, not by historical authority of one religion and subsequent rejection by other religions. Besides that, even Christ is just one person and to get something done requires countless votes and hands raised in parliaments. Therefore, this Christ will not do anything we can do or order anyone to do anything.
So at least a half of the whole message is pretty much about how to correctly handle economy, finances, basic human rights, politics, human relationships, environment global and urban, psychology, education, self-development, and so on. Outlandish as all the esoteric history may seem, the information on our current global situation and way out of it is very clearly presented. Also, there are documented humanitary activities in various fields, interviews with these activitsts, and much of other mundane material. I really appreciate these news, it gives very balanced look on global problems and solutions. I wouldn't trust anyone who would bring only good or only bad news.
Even if Creme and returning Christ would be completely fake, their message is not, by any means. It is exactly like I would think of solution to global problems, only in better and specific words. Thus equipped, I feel competent to instruct others on global problems and solutions and maybe eventually work on these that I might reach locally. Nothing on that knowledge is truly revolutional, revolutional would be actually putting it into practice against selfish interests of many.
Thus is answered the question how some people can rationally consider Christ's return. If it's presented with all meaningful complexity of it, then it can be at least considered. This is of course not about Christians or other believers that take their religion as exclusive and only their savior as granted. It's for those with broader look at history, religions, contemporary situation and possible futures. It's a good test of open-mindedness, this has nothing to do with agreement, it is about consideration of as much as you can consider.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
What about that bible quote that says Jesus will return during the lifetime of his disciples? Aren't Christians getting REALLY pissed off and losing faith that he's 2000 YEARS LATE!!!
Actually Christanity has lost TONS of faith and followers. Several hundred years ago in Europe the Pope was basically like a King and in essence controlled most of the entire continent of Europe. The large colonized areas of North and South America were basically Christian theocracies. Now not a SINGLE Christian theocracy exists anymore in the western world. It's a MASSIVE collapse and defeat for Christianity and everything the doubters said from Erik the Red and before him came true i.e. it was all crap and none of this bullshit they claim will EVER come true!!
The church will give you some excuse like there are more Christians today than every before maybe even % wise worldwide BUT they don't tell you that most people don't take religion anywhere nearly as seriously as they used to. Now it's just a social event that 26% of the country go to 1 time a week IF they can make it. Out of that 26% around half just go because they MUST go or for the free refreshments or to meet family/friends. I'd bet less than 10% of Americas are truly devout and studies have shown doubt is at an ALL TIME high among Christians.
Gee I wonder why THAT is?? Maybe it has something to do with the constant lies about Jesus coming back?
Christians say the "return" of Jeebus has something to do with the end times but Christians can't even agree on what that is. One Christian told me that the end times does not mean the end of the world but just the end of Old Covenant Era. What is that?
I'm sure that's already over and Jeebus still never returned so now he's batting 0/10000000000000000000. That has to be lower than any baseball player EVER!!
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
LMAO..So Jesus returned in 1977??!? Where is he then?? Working at the local laundromat?? ROFL!!
HOW does Creme explain where he is??
This talk about signs on earth and sky make him sound like he's Wiccan or something.
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
Ha no! He works at the convenient store around the corner from my house. He sold me some old dried up sour punch straws that had probably been on the shelf since 1977.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
He mows my lawn.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
And it doesn't exactly mean Jesus. Have you read evangelium of Judas? There were two of them, Jesus and Christ. Similarly, there wasn't just one Buddha, but prince Gautama Siddharta and Buddha. That's what Creme calls overshadowing, it's something like people imagine a demonic possession, just voluntary. That was used in the past, when disciple was there personally and through him the senior GWB member preached to the crowd. Now the guy that has Christ title (with name Maitreya Buddha) is here personally and will stay for a long time, to make sure that nobody will kill people in his name this time. That's what Creme says, basically.
As for the signs, Creme publishes them quite meticulously and it's mainly parade of glowing lights flying across our skies from time to time, British crop circles, weeping statues and countless lesser tricks that are sometimes noticed, sometimes not. People probably won't get convinced because most of it doesn't make it to the media, but it's better than no signs at all. If there would be no signs, people would ask, where are the signs? It's no win either way, at least for us, cynical western-type civilization.
No, Creme's not Wiccan, has nothing to do with things like New Age, Aleister Crowley, and so on. He goes along the lines of early Theosophist leaders, like H. P. Blavatsky, Alice Bailey and Helena Roerich. He's not allied with Theosophists in general, who after demise of the mentioned leaders got some wild ideas, but he praises these three women all the time. Not so with Leadbetter, latest writings of Anne Besant, Antroposophists or the accursed I AM movement.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
So he won't reveal himself until people start killing each other over religion? But that's going on right now!! He's going to wait till the last moment? Is that just before some nation or terrorist launches nukes? How will he know that ahead of time? Religion sure as hell hasn't stopped the wars or genocides of the past.
Have you guys heard about how when the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima that was a very apocalyptic sign so TONS of Christians thought that was the "last moment" and said Jesus was due ANY MINUTE there after!!
Dude, there have been TONS of "last moment" disasters throughout history yet this Jeebus never, and I mean NEVER, reveals himself. Don't forget the Black death and Black Plagues wiped out 1/4 to 1/3 of the civilized world yet Jeebus was just a cartoon in the mind of naive earthlings!! Never jumping out of the comic book!!
Luminon, your tag says you are a theist but you don't really seem like that much of one. Are you a lite theist or a theist who is trying to kick the habit or something?
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
Just hold up the store. Jeebus oh Jeebus is VERY forgiving and will understand your need for food, drink, and cigarettes so he'll let you have them for FREE! He always forgives so you don't have to worry about Jeebers calling the cops on you!
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
Shrek is coming back
As for Jesus or other members of GWB not showing up or only briefly or only via proxy, that's a long story. A story of Atlantis, good and evil, war, competition and economy. Shortly, they were long in exile and thanks to partial defeating the evil forces (WW2) they can now start moving from mountains and deserts to cities. The goal is to let them work publically, but they're extremely careful, making sure that everyone will understand why they work here and will want them to guide the civilization. If you show your cards too early, someone who doesn't like you will prepare soon enough to act against you.
That's one side of me, but there is also the other. I am also interested in understanding what is called real world and normality. I don't quite understand these things, but circumstances force me to understand them. There are mysteries of body language and awareness, social skills, relationships, what to talk about with other people, and so on. What are people up to.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.