Hear you go Fonzie
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Fonzie wrote:
Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
Well hear are some of my Favorite examples of the God you love so much. Please dont try to use the typical christian copouts you have allready said that you "love the Bible and believe all of it"
Judges 21:10-24 NLT
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan. The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse." Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes. Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
Numbers 31:7-18 NLT
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Fonzie wrote:
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
Have you had enough yet? I know raping and killing inocent people is just a part of your religion, but this God of yours seems to have a real chip on his sholder.
I know, I know, I know, you just can't get enough huh... Well hear is some more enjoy:
Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment
Judges 11:29-40 NLT
"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."
I hope you don't have any loved one fighting in one of our many religous war. Well that's a lie hope you do, and I hope they made this kind of promise with there imaginary friend while they were there.
Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."
Hey that one hits close to home you are on web page "Town" full of non-believers do you need to kill us. Your Lord will be pissed if you dont obey his commands. He says it right there.
Fonzie wrote:
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
I can only hope that the next "certain point" in your life that changed it all will be the day you open your eyes. This God of yours is the most distructive force in the world...
Oh I know what your thinking most of those books are in the Old Testiment, right.. That shit don't happen any more. Well 911 wasn't a few motherfuckers joy riding and lost controll. Make no mistake you may call him by a different name but you pray to the same God.
Fonzie wrote:
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
Well you are fooling yourself into thinking that you will live forever in heaven.. Hears my something better reality. Get a grip on yourself think about all the shit that has been done in the name of God. Sick shit..
I know, I know, I know, you just can't get enough.. Well hear is some more: Enjoy..
Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Exodus 21:2-6 NLT
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
Romans 1:24-32 NLT
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
I hope you have all enjoyed the read...
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
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I don't understand though, you agree that God does not seem to intervene on behalf of Christians when their lives are threatened, or at least, not any more than He interferes with Muslims or atheists, but then you say you pray because you want to live. That seems to indicate you both acknowledge that prayer won't matter, but you pray anyway in the hope that it makes a difference, which seems to be a contradiction.
So teh only way I can see out of that contradiction is that praying is only for the mental pick-me-up...a psychological placebo pill. But you say it isn't that either, so I'm confused.
Could you clarify? You seem to be saying the only difference is that one person believes and one does not. I agree, but wouldn't that support my position? Also, as a matter of factuality, an atheist will not ask why they are here, they will only ask how they came to be here. Without a supernatural creator there is no why, only how.
Yes, the gamble is Pascal's wager. The problem with it is you assume your choice is binary...that there are only two options. But that isn't the case. What if your god isn't the right god? What if it was Allah? Thor? Rah? What if karma and rebirth are real? What is Satan is really the more powerful super-being? What if god doesn't care? What if he only likes atheists? What if the Jesus story wasn't real but the rest of it was and you'll go to hell because you never sacrificed a gaot? What if we're the byproduct of an alien race and *their* god is the real god? What if we're already in the afterlife? What if dead really means dead and we atheists are right, and you've spent a large part of your life obsessed with your sex organs? There are tens of thousands of deities, you are not gambling between Jesus and no Jesus, you are gambling between an infinity of maybe's and placing your bet on a single option.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
How do you know he did do anything? It seems to me that if god would pull one person through he would pull all through. What about the little kids you see on tv at that children's hospital who only live to be 5 or 6? Your mother had already lived much of her life but god saw fit to not let a 5 year old pull through and enjoy the rest of his/her life? Wrong! I don't believe god has any involvement in the medical field. Could it be that this cancer patient that jcgadfly is referring to had to pay a lot of money for their medical treatments because their insurance wouldn't cover most of the cost.
Would it be god laying his hand on them then taking all credit for this persons survival? For that patient, I seriously doubt it. Look, some make it and some don't. I think for some it's probably karma. My grandfather was one of the meanest people I've ever heard of. I knew him as a humble old man with leukemia. On his death bed he did apologize to my mother and he died not long after. He got to "know god" before he passed and I have to think only because he what an ass he'd been his entire life. So here my thing, does god still punish these people even if they do a turnaround? If not then why didn't his cancer just go away?
I've seen first hand cases like this after long stay in the picu with my own son. I've seen children with cancer, heart problems, seriously debilitating diseases and even genetic problems such as my own son has. Could it be sometimes these people just have a strong will to live and those that don't are just tired of being poked and prodded and they are ready to rest? I really hate how Christians say that every good turn out is because god did it. Even if I believed in god, I don't think I would give god all the credit. Could possibly be that the doctor that person chose was very good at what they do and looked at every available option out there for that person.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
That is one of my biggest complaints with this thought process. Theists will assume that certain things are God, admit they can't tell what is God and what isn't God, admit that God does not have a statistical impact on the outcome of events, but still insist the source of a good event is God.
It is blatantly circular and blatantly hopeful, like plugging your ears and saying, 'lalalalala!'. It doesn't do it for me. It isn't like prayer is hard to test, lots of studies have given it a fair shot and it always fails to have any impact, yet people keep saying prayer is the most powerful thing you can do!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Mellestad, yes, belief is central. Interesting on the why and how – I think they’re both great questions that root people. We’ve all been given a gift, life. We wouldn’t have it unless we were born – so, at least we have a basic understanding of the how process. I am involved in tracing my ancestry, which, imo, is a cool endeavor however frustrating. To think how many people have been involved to put you where you are today is a bit mind boggling. As to the ‘why’, well that question also takes some research. We’re all on a path, we all have experiences, and we all have abilities. I believe the sum of those points us in the general direction of ‘why’. We all seem to be born into a time where we fit.
Pascal’s wager – yes! Yes, the choice is binary. You either believe in God Almighty and the one He sent or you don’t. If you don’t, then you have a great many things you can involve yourself (you list many). That is one of the basic premises of Christianity. One of the accounts in the Bible that intrigues me is the story of Samson (Judges 13). He was chosen for a purpose, to exact revenge on the Philistines. Spiritually, Samson lost sight of his calling from God and gave up his greatest gift, his amazing physical strength, to please the woman who had captured his affections. In the end it cost him his physical sight, his freedom, and his dignity. In the end, the Philistines captured and imprisoned him. He understood his failure and asked that God restore him. In the end, God’s will to get revenge on the Philistines was accomplished. Did Samson have a choice not to obey God’s will? Now, did our parents have an encounter of the third kind announcing our birth and what we will do enclosed with specific instructions on how we will act? No (at least I haven’t heard of anyone ‘truthfully’ that have been called out in such a fashion). But I believe we have a purpose. I’m not sure Samson knew the ‘why’. Which makes me think that maybe we don’t know either; however, it might possibly be rooted in our abilities and the pleasure derived from using those abilities for good (God’s definition of good, not ours). I say that because I also believe God to be ‘sovereign’. Meaning, He can do anything He wants, any time He wants to do it, despite our objections (although He seems to hear our objections (Abraham’s plea for Sodom/Gomorrah).
I don’t highlight this to call expose God breaking His own commandment (as some will surely point out here). I mention it because His will was done. What does that have to do with you, me, or anyone else here? Well, this goes back to my statement that we’re here and we seem to fit. Esther was in the right place at the right time and the people of Israel escaped destruction. We are here for a purpose. It might not be as noble as being a king or queen, or even President of these United States. It could be to reach a people or a person. We encounter so many things in our day. Are we here to seize the day and spend it gratifying pleasures to self or are we here to be selfless?
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
"Are we here to seize the day and spend it gratifying pleasures to self or are we here to be selfless?"
Yes we are to seize the day in self gradification. Not in a selfish manner, but rather in a joyful manner.
You see all these storys in the bible dipict god as being so powerful that he can move mountains, and yet he just quit. This is the time and age that if he did that he would have us all. The internet would have it posted and viewed the world over in a mater of minutes. Yet you can't show me one miracle that does not involve chance..
Bring me some real proof that god exist and i'm all ears.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Proof, well, I guess we enter into the argument of evolution and creationism then. Where do you stand?
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Atheist and evolution! The only way in my eyes that we could be.
Creationism v. evolution - you mean magic v. evidence? Wow that is a toughie.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Sorry not to come back to this sooner - had an internet free vacation.
You did research before you prayed and lo and behold God led you to the place that you researched was the best place. Seems like you used the prayer to confirm what you wanted to do.
Death - it happens, indeed. The difference between you and I (at the moment) is that you are frightened enough of death to posit an eternal afterlife of magic. If there is one thing that is keeping me from Christianity it's that I don't want to be scared of dying again. I don't want have to worry about being banished from God (in whatever way you believe) because I didn't love him enough or worship him correctly.
Sin. The God of the Bible didn't create the sin - he just created the circumstances to assure that sin was the only outcome. Is that what you're saying? My wife once said that man created sin. My response was that she just made man more powerful than God - do you hold a similar view?
My view of God's design - I can't think it wondrous to have a God that created a world where most of its surface is unusable by what is (according to his word) the pinnacle of his creation. I can't buy that breathing and eating out of the same hole with an epiglottis that gets "confused" easily. Or the wondrous design in birth defects (mentioned earlier) or that parts of his wondrous universe are on a collision course with the planet.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
It is in the nature of a used car salesman to lie. Coin the phrase “lie like a rug.”
I have never met an honest car salesman in my life; however I have met people that use their religion to persuade people to believe them. Which do you think this is the first honest salesman or a salesman doing his job? It seems to be easy for people to trust you if they believe that you feel the same as they do
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
The idea/concept of God differs where you go; however, the one consistency I see (and I don't think it is across the board) is the idea of 'supremacy' or 'sovereignty'. For instance, the Greek gods were supreme and could do what they wanted, and it appeared that the poor little humans were their toys. If you take the Bible at its word, the God of the Bible is 'sovereign'. He has expectations and all is based on relationship. He can and does as He wills; however, it is in response to human actions. For me, to expect Him to pull everyone through as you suggest is something that I, too, would love to see. If this were the case, why have anything to pull people through? Why not maintain a utopia where no evil exists, no death exists, no disease exists. Only joy exists. I find myself picturing the scene from "The Time Machine" starring Rod Taylor. He goes forward in time and encounters a Utopian society (Eloi). Is this what we want? Now, granted, there are some issues with the Eloi we certainly don't want, like the morlocks, no learning, and, in my opinion, near brain dead.
IRT your grandfather, I think the Scripture in the NT is pretty clear, "whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13). There is no other pre-qualification. You don't have to clean yourself up, you can even be a condemned man on a cross. It doesn't matter when as long as you do. Consequences is a word that needs to be understood. If I put my hand on a hot stove, I get burned: Action versus reaction. Then there are those things we didn't ask for, like those passed down in our own generations of family. Then there are those things that we didn't ask for like 3-mile island, being a Jew during WWII, suffering the anger of misguided people (9/11), etc etc. IRT healing, I don't have an explanation as to why one is and one isn't. However, we all have the same disease, and it appears that we can't escape it. My mom beat lung cancer twice. The second time the doctors were convinced that it was gone. Problem was the struggle to win that battle took its toll and she died of heart failure. In Isaiah, King Hezekiah gets 15 years added to his lifespan. Why? That's the big question isn't it? Why one and not another. It is appointed once for man to die, this is clear - Scripture doesn't say how. Rich Mullins, while alive, was a popular musician/singer in the Christian community. and his friend were traveling together to a benefit concert in Kansas when their Jeep flipped over. They were not wearing seat belts and were thrown from the vehicle. When a passing semi-trailer truck swerved to avoid the Jeep, Mullins, who was too injured to move out of the way, was hit by the truck and died instantly. Did God control that? Did He will it? Could death be avoided in this circumstance? Maybe, if he was wearing his seat belt he wouldn't have been thrown from the jeep, then again something else could have caused his death as well. You and I could go on and on with examples; however, I don't really think we'll achieve much except know that man dies and sometimes not from natural causes.
IRT your son, science has suggested that attitude and will go a long way when battling health issues. The scripture you reference is Romans 8:28 that says, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." The context of the passage is "weakness" and "not knowing what to pray". While I believe this to be true, I will say that people who interpret 'good' do not interpret it the same way God meant it. Looking at Hebrews 11, today's persecution of those who call themselves Christians, and Foxes, "Book of Martyrs", one would look at these people who have been highlighted as being faithful, don't seem to have what we would term 'good' happen to them. This term good is in line with His good, not ours. IRT the doctor, I believe God works in all things. He created man, He gifted man, He blessed man with abilities, He gave man tools, He helped man in knowledge, etc etc. However, in the case you cite, and others in this forum, man did the work. Could he have done it without interference from God? By interference I mean, no help at all. So man would have gained the knowledge himself, worked at his craft to become a professional, and nothing was provided to him - I don't think so. God provides. Have you ever looked back at your life and wonder how you got to where you are today? If so, in looking do you see things that showed up that directed your path? Showed up at the right time, the right place, for the right thing? I have, and I know many more that can attest to the same (not all are Christians). Fate? Karma? Or is it the providential hand from above? I pick the latter. I look at myself, others, my surroundings, the earth hanging in mid-air, the universe as far as we 'now' can see, and say to myself, "this didn't happen by chance, there's an artist at work here."
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Ouch. Forget I said anything.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.