Marketplace of the Gods

A_Nony_Mouse
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Marketplace of the Gods

How Economics Explains Religion, Larry Witham, Oxford University Press, 2010

At page 31 it is worth recommending at least a scan. I put it off for a long time thinking it was another "priests get rich" diatribe. It is not.

It is applying the ideas of economics to religion. Things like people have a fixed amount of time and will devote as much of it to religion as religion is worth to them. Things like a state religion is like a monopoly and when it is broken we expect to find a large number of new religions as when monopolies break up there is competition for people's time.

It so far does not address WHY religion but rather addresses the choices made for reasonably rational reasons once one has accepted religion.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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I disagree, that squatters

I disagree, that squatters rights has caused problems throughout humanity outside the Jewish Palestinian conflict. I doubt you'd get Americans to give the land back to Native Americans. And I also laugh at Mexicans who claim Americans took the west from them, when it was Span and Europe that took the Americas from the natives.

The deed is done, just like I cant change the fact that America was invaded and stolen. The grudge factor is what is perpetuating this. I never would have sent Jews back to that bad neighborhood after WW2, but at that moment they had the empathy of the world and that is the compensation they wanted at the time.

You cant change the past and the Jews who live there now had nothing to do with the original battle that started with both gang's ancestors. That land has exchanged hands and power over and over and over. Fighting over who's daddy owns it is pathetic and childish for both sides.

I live in a country which has had a shameful history of slavery and sexism and genocide, but in recognizing that I am also NOT RESPONSIBLE for things that happened before I was born. Saying that the Jews should give back the land would be the same as saying we should pay blacks for slaves we don't own now.

Blame based on labels causes this tribalism. Instead of blaming Jews for the past, how about criticizing them for what they are doing wrong now and criticizing Palestine for what they do wrong now. Neither side is going anywhere and for either side to assume such is a utopia that will not happen.

"The owners want it back". If we are going to use that logic, then Native Americans would be justified in the same gorilla tactics of car bombs and suicide bombings. You cant change the past, you should remember the past in order not to repeat it, but you cant turn back the clock.

The issue should be about what humans are doing to their fellow humans, not where they live or who owns what, but the absurdity that a label or border makes one special by simple fiat, either way. A Palestinian does not deserve to have their family members die over an ancient beef anymore than a Jew deserves to fear dying on a bus because of what some nutty Muslim thinks is theirs.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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EXC
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:How

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

How Economics Explains Religion, Larry Witham, Oxford University Press, 2010

At page 31 it is worth recommending at least a scan. I put it off for a long time thinking it was another "priests get rich" diatribe. It is not.

It is applying the ideas of economics to religion. Things like people have a fixed amount of time and will devote as much of it to religion as religion is worth to them. Things like a state religion is like a monopoly and when it is broken we expect to find a large number of new religions as when monopolies break up there is competition for people's time.

It so far does not address WHY religion but rather addresses the choices made for reasonably rational reasons once one has accepted religion.

I think you can see how churches adapt themselves to maximize profit same as any business. Their are always new churches that come along with 'hip' music and sermons, that in previous generations would have been sinful.

It's interesting how in the USA, we don't have a state church, we basically have a free for all. So just like in the business world you see all kinds of new religions develop here(Mormonism, Evangelicals, Adventists, ...). Then they are franchised just like McDonald's, KFC, etc... Then these sect are exported all over the world by missionaries, and people convert from the traditional sects.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


A_Nony_Mouse
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Palestine?? ah well

Brian37 wrote:

I disagree, that squatters rights has caused problems throughout humanity outside the Jewish Palestinian conflict. I doubt you'd get Americans to give the land back to Native Americans. And I also laugh at Mexicans who claim Americans took the west from them, when it was Span and Europe that took the Americas from the natives.

The Mexican and Indian situations differ in several crucial matters.

Peace treaties exist between the US and Mexico and with the Indians. There is no peace treaty with the Palestinians.

Although the issue is a bit murky in the Indian case the one with Mexico is clear. Sovereignty was ceded by Mexico to the US. The Mexican government could not transfer land title from the owners who became Americans to the US. Sovereignty and ownership are separate issues. The Palestinians are attempting to reclaim their private property which was stolen from them by Jews.

While one can make a case the ownership of land was stolen from the Indians, when they go to court over treaty matters it is almost always to enforce them not to nullify them or parts of them such as the land ownership part. The murky part is that the treaties were with tribes and their land claims were much more like sovereignty than private ownership. The tribal concept was not compatible with US type ownership rules. The Palestinian ownership concept is compatible and it is claimed by individuals.

Anyone who has followed the facts knows Israel wants land not peace. Israel has done everything it can to avoid peace. It started all but one of the wars it has been in starting with war on Egypt in 1956.

Quote:
The deed is done, just like I cant change the fact that America was invaded and stolen. The grudge factor is what is perpetuating this. I never would have sent Jews back to that bad neighborhood after WW2, but at that moment they had the empathy of the world and that is the compensation they wanted at the time.

In 1938 there were 240,000 Jews in Germany. Deal. They do not have to go back to Germany. So where did all those millions of others come from? And what kind of argument did they have for not going back to countries which were the enemies of Germany during the war? And just who decided for them they wanted to become dirt farmers in Palestine instead of shopkeepers in New York?

The issue here is the political movement of Zionism. It was a privately operated organization whose leaders were not elected by all Jews and thus had no pretense whatsoever to speaking for anyone but themselves and organization. You can research the details of the Zionists maneouvering and see Zionists were as much dictators towards Jews as were governments.

Where is it written Palestinians have to suffer to make up for Europe?

Quote:
You cant change the past and the Jews who live there now had nothing to do with the original battle that started with both gang's ancestors. That land has exchanged hands and power over and over and over. Fighting over who's daddy owns it is pathetic and childish for both sides.

However in the matter of equality and avoiding jewish racism one notes that Palestine was wiped off the map and 3/4 of its population driven out of the country. Should the same thing happen to the Israelis it is of no greater import or harm nor difference to the world or history.

The apologetic narrative you are reciting says exactly the same thing, one more change of hands will not be out of the ordinary and of no special import or concern.

But the reality of that narrative is that only sovereignty changed not property ownership. Land was not stolen from its lawful owners.

Quote:
I live in a country which has had a shameful history of slavery and sexism and genocide, but in recognizing that I am also NOT RESPONSIBLE for things that happened before I was born. Saying that the Jews should give back the land would be the same as saying we should pay blacks for slaves we don't own now.

Again you recite a fallacious narrative. The Indians and treaties are as above. Slavery is history and if compensation were due it was due to the slaves not to their descendents. In the 18th and 19th centuries when slavery was abolished in the West abolition was considered sufficient except for that 40 acres and a mule thing. I am unaware of any compensation issue on "sexism" whatever that might be.

In fact only about 40% of the jewish population of Israel was born there. In the 60% are about a million Russians half of whom are war criminals for living in the occupied territories. In this 60% we have peopled who freely chose to go to Israel and live on stolen property. That is their crime and their motivation is not and excuse for their crime.

So the issue is only about 40% who must face either acceptance of justice or curse their parents and still accept justice for the Palestinians.

What is justice? you can fairly ask. The standard of justice for Palestinians is exactly the same standard Jews demand for themselves when it comes to the Nazis for events several years older than the injustices done to the Palestinians. Again it is a matter of equal treatment for all. Palestinian and Jew alike.

Quote:
Blame based on labels causes this tribalism. Instead of blaming Jews for the past, how about criticizing them for what they are doing wrong now and criticizing Palestine for what they do wrong now. Neither side is going anywhere and for either side to assume such is a utopia that will not happen.

What they are doing wrong now is being in receipt of stolen property. What they are doing wrong now it conducting a criminal occupation of the lands of some 3.5 million non-Israelis. I have no idea what Palestinians are doing wrong as the Geneva Conventions makes the use of force to resist military occupation lawful. Violence may not be constructive but it is lawful.

So should they manage to wipe Israel off the map as happened to Palestine and should the Jews be driven out as happened to the Palstinians it is their lawful right to do so.

Quote:
"The owners want it back". If we are going to use that logic, then Native Americans would be justified in the same gorilla tactics of car bombs and suicide bombings. You cant change the past, you should remember the past in order not to repeat it, but you cant turn back the clock.

Again you recite the fallacious Zionist argument ignoring the US peace treaties and the fact Israel works very hard to avoid making peace. In this regard a peace offer has been on the table for eight years. Normalization with all the Islamic countries in the world in exchange for a return to the 1948 borders. It is not a secret. Israel refuses to consider it.

But as to remembering the past the point of that is not to repeat it AND not let countries do it and that would require blockading Israel until they agree to a peace with a standard of Justice the same as Jews demand for themselves.

BTW, you want to tell the Israelis/Jews they should forget their holocaust and forget about the Nazis and see how far you get. Again they could set the standard for how they would be treated by Palestinians ... but don't hold your breath.

Quote:
The issue should be about what humans are doing to their fellow humans, not where they live or who owns what, but the absurdity that a label or border makes one special by simple fiat, either way. A Palestinian does not deserve to have their family members die over an ancient beef anymore than a Jew deserves to fear dying on a bus because of what some nutty Muslim thinks is theirs.

There hasn't been a bombing in years. And when they did happen they were usually against lawful targets as defined by the conventions of war. If you actually looked into the facts you would see through the Israeli lies. The members of the military, on or off duty, active or reserve, are always lawful targets. And should the military be hiding among civilians that is the fault of the military in making civilians lawful targets. I will also point out the military assests are always lawful targets and Israel treats its bus system as a military asset making all buses at any time lawful targets. I never wrote a treaty in my life. Perhaps they should be different but they are what they are.

So this is not over some ancient beef. It is over events more recent than WWII for which Jews have set the standard of justice. It is not over imaginary grievences but over real property and over a real military occupation. It is over the on-going theft of property from Palestinians in the West Bank and occupied Jerusalem. And it is over Syrian claims to their homes in occupied Syria. And it is over the sovereign claims over occupied Lebanon. It is about raising the siege of Gaza which rivals that of the Warsaw ghetto.

These are all here and now issues that affect real people, right now. Issues which the world chooses to ignore.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml