Israel confirms easing of Gaza blockade

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Israel confirms easing of Gaza blockade

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10513004.stm

 

Quote:

Israel has confirmed details of what goods it will allow to enter the Gaza Strip with the easing of its blockade.

Consumer goods are being allowed but a "blacklist" of items including weapons and materials that could have a military use will be barred or limited.

Hamas, which controls Gaza, dismissed the concessions as of no use and said the blockade should be fully lifted.

Israel says its blockade of the Palestinian territory is needed to prevent the supply of weapons to Hamas.

Israel came under international pressure to ease its four-year blockade of Gaza after nine Turkish activists were killed in a 31 May Israeli raid on a flotilla that was trying to carry aid to the Palestinian territory

The international Middle East envoy, Tony Blair, told the BBC he believed the international outcry which followed that raid persuaded it to accelerate the easing of the Gaza blockade.

"It is true to say that the Israeli government, I think, were moving towards a different policy anyway, but of course what happened has hugely accelerated the idea," he said.

'Worthless'

Under the new measures, materials such as steel, cement, certain fertilisers and chemicals will be allowed in for Palestinian Authority-approved projects that are under the supervision and for the use of the UN or other international agencies.

ISRAEL'S GAZA BLOCKADE

  • Banned items:
  • Weapons and ammunition
  • Goods with civilian/military use
  • Chemicals and fertilisers
  • Restricted items:
  • Cement, steel and lumber more than 2cm thick

Source: Israeli ministry of foreign affairs

Turks threaten break with Israel Protest concert to support Shalit Guide: Gaza under blockade

Aid agencies say building materials are badly needed in Gaza as the blockade has prevented much reconstruction taking place since Israel's devastating 22-day military offensive, which ended in January 2009.

The blacklist includes so-called "dual-use" items that could be used to manufacture weapons and explosives, such as ball bearings and fireworks.

Meanwhile, exports are not permitted, making it hard for the enclave's devastated economy to pick up, says the BBC's Jon Donnison in Gaza.

The sea blockade will remain and, most importantly for many Gazans, the restrictions on the movement of people remain. It is extremely difficult for Palestinians to get Israeli permission to leave Gaza.

Under its old rules, Israel allowed only a few dozen types of products, including basic food and medicine, into Gaza. Now everything will be permitted freely into the territory, except for items on the blacklist.

Mr Blair said: "These changes are significant and, once implemented, should have a dramatic influence on the daily lives of the people of Gaza and on the private sector."

But a Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu Zuhri, told the Associated Press news agency that the new policy was "worthless", adding: "The problem is not to approve new merchandise but to lift the blockade."

Our correspondent says the timing of the announcement is key, coming as it does on the eve of a visit by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to the US to meet President Barack Obama.

Israel tightened the blockade on Gaza in 2007 when the militant group Hamas seized control.

The aim of the blockade was to weaken Hamas, end rocket attacks from Gaza and get back captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.

The restrictions have been widely described as collective punishment of the population of Gaza, resulting in a humanitarian crisis.

Turkish threat

Turkey has for the first time threatened to break diplomatic ties with Israel over its raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

Turkey's foreign minister said a break could only be averted if Israel either apologised or accepted the outcome of an international inquiry into the raid.

The Israeli government said it had nothing to apologise for.

Ankara curtailed diplomatic relations with Israel after the naval raid.

Turkey - which until recently was Israel's most important Muslim ally - withdrew its ambassador and demanded that the Israelis issue an apology, agree to a United Nations inquiry and compensate the victims' families.

 

 

 

 

It's about time.

 

 

 


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It ain't over til its over. More than a year ago Israel announced it was easing the blockade and guess what? Nothing changed.

Here we have only another announcement. Until we see what it means in practice there is nothing. Up until Hamas won the election Gaza was able to export to Europe their major cash crop, flowers. Seems more than half were lost due to deliberate Israeli delays and deliberate damage of the shipping containers. Note no exports have been permitted by this. No competition with Israeli growers is permitted.

There are a couple other points. Last week when this was first talked about the Prime Minister said making this change would weaken Hamas. Thus we know the blockade was for the purpose of strengthening Hamas which created an enemy for Israeli politicians. We also learned that the blockade (still in place until there is evidence to the contrary) permitted in only 114 specific items, not types, not categories but items. And the quantities of each were limited. Note this requires everything not on the prohibited list to be allowed in unlimited quantities. This will also mean an unlimited number of trucks and the crossings open 24/7 to permit them entry.

In the past Israel would claim they were "warned of a terrorist attack" on a crossing and shut it down for a few days. This happened once or twice a week. They also held up traffic by time consuming inspections of returning trucks which blocked entry of full trucks. Never can tell when an exploding hubcap might be brought out. Israel has also pleaded "man power" shortages to limit the number of trucks. At one point they claimed they did not have enough lights to work after sundown.
 

So regardless of what they are saying nothing what we see on the ground is the only reality and as yet we have seen nothing on the ground.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Another week down the tubes

Netanyahu, Israeli PM, got his first openly friendly meeting with Obama on Tue, 6 July 2010. All the pundits who wrote about it simply spun a space filing article as nothing substantive happened nor was there the least indication of anything substantive occurring. They might as well have traded jokes before the photo op. It was a non-event. If you read Israeli newspapers you know there are no secrets in Israel. In comparison to Israel Washington keeps secrets like the Kremlin.

As to the blockade there has not been a single reported change despite the declaration of a change. Still no word on exports being permitted nor on the importation of raw materials despite the wording of the announcement.

A state sponsored Libyan ship is preparing to sail for Gaza -- from Greece for some reason. The Iranian ship talked about for the last two weeks has not materialized.

The police in occupied Jerusalem appear to be approaching a "Selma moment" in their treatment of the protestors against the criminal jewish takeover of a Palestinians neighborhood. The level of violence is accelerating. The protestors have finally figured out how to piss off cops just doing their job. It will play well in the international press. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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The Lybian aid ship diverted to Egypt to offload cargo rather than attempt to run the blockade.

There is still no word if the blockade has in fact been "eased" as they claimed. Same for raw materials and exports. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:The

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

The Lybian aid ship diverted to Egypt to offload cargo rather than attempt to run the blockade.

There is still no word if the blockade has in fact been "eased" as they claimed. Same for raw materials and exports. 

 

Would it be that difficult to make a hollow PR stunt involving a false claim, if the world is pressuring your country into action?

 

I would not be surprised if "lifting the blockade" was little more than a hedged bet.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
The Lybian aid ship diverted to Egypt to offload cargo rather than attempt to run the blockade.

There is still no word if the blockade has in fact been "eased" as they claimed. Same for raw materials and exports. 

Would it be that difficult to make a hollow PR stunt involving a false claim, if the world is pressuring your country into action?

I would not be surprised if "lifting the blockade" was little more than a hedged bet.

If you look back to my first post in this thread I believe you will find I recited material from Haaretz.com saying the English announcement said it would be "eased" but the Hebrew announcement said no such thing. One has to ask would the Prime Minister lie to the US or to his own country. One reasonably opts for the former.

So far it is clearly a PR stunt without substance. And even if it is as claimed it does not address raw materials or exports which are essential to ending the blockade. Gazans want to earn a living and want to make money.

The subtext in this is Israel wants Egypt to let everything in because once that happens Israel will declare Gaza is Egypt's responsibility. Egypt is refusing to play Israel's game.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Kapkao

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Kapkao wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
The Lybian aid ship diverted to Egypt to offload cargo rather than attempt to run the blockade.

There is still no word if the blockade has in fact been "eased" as they claimed. Same for raw materials and exports. 

Would it be that difficult to make a hollow PR stunt involving a false claim, if the world is pressuring your country into action?

I would not be surprised if "lifting the blockade" was little more than a hedged bet.

If you look back to my first post in this thread I believe you will find I recited material from Haaretz.com saying the English announcement said it would be "eased" but the Hebrew announcement said no such thing. One has to ask would the Prime Minister lie to the US or to his own country. One reasonably opts for the former.

So far it is clearly a PR stunt without substance. And even if it is as claimed it does not address raw materials or exports which are essential to ending the blockade. Gazans want to earn a living and want to make money.

The subtext in this is Israel wants Egypt to let everything in because once that happens Israel will declare Gaza is Egypt's responsibility. Egypt is refusing to play Israel's game.

Egypt has always refused to play Israel's game - that's why Israel doesn't have Sinai under it's control anymore.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:
Egypt has always refused to play Israel's game - that's why Israel doesn't have Sinai under it's control anymore.

Israel attacked Egypt in 1956 and 1967 so there is no love lost. Both times under the biblical fantasy the kingdom of Solomon spreading from the Nile to the Euphrates. There is even a dark joke about Jew squatters in 1967 coming to live in the Sinai singing some Zionist raving about "We have returned." Zionists are fucking crazy, all of them. And these people claim they are smart? Someone is cheating on the IQ tests. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Today 7/16 I read in Haaretz that the announced "easing" has not yet been implemented. So it will still be some time in the future -- maybe never -- before we have any information on how it will work in practice.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Today

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Today 7/16 I read in Haaretz that the announced "easing" has not yet been implemented. So it will still be some time in the future -- maybe never -- before we have any information on how it will work in practice.

What type of publication is Haaretz?

 

Nony, I've been with Americans all my life, but particularly so during Bush Jr's tenure in office. I know how ridiculously easy they are to lie to. What I want to know is "How much is the rest of the world buying into Israel's lies?"

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Today 7/16 I read in Haaretz that the announced "easing" has not yet been implemented. So it will still be some time in the future -- maybe never -- before we have any information on how it will work in practice.

What type of publication is Haaretz? 

Nony, I've been with Americans all my life, but particularly so during Bush Jr's tenure in office. I know how ridiculously easy they are to lie to. What I want to know is "How much is the rest of the world buying into Israel's lies?"

www.haaretz.com, Ha'Aretz, The Land. It is the oldest "hebrew" language newspaper in Palestine and is now in what is called Israel. This indicates the EU is not buying the lies. Of course, who gives a rat's ass about the EU.

The entire article is as follows.

Haaretz

  * Published 20:22 16.07.10
  * Latest update 20:22 16.07.10

Ashton: Gaza borders must open to revive local economy

EU's FM in Gaza to gauge whether partial lift of Gaza blockade has improved
the lives of Gaza residents; says after meeting with Fayyad goods must flow
in both directions.

By Haaretz Service and [48]The Associated Press Tags: [49]Israel news
[50]Gaza [51]EU

The European Union's High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security
Policy Catherine Ashton said Saturday Gaza's borders must open to enable the
territory's battered economy to recover.
EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine
Ashton

EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine
Ashton.
Photo by: Reuters

Ashton spoke at a news conference Saturday with Palestinian Prime Minister
Salam Fayyad.

Ashton is to tour Gaza on Sunday to gauge whether Israel's decision to ease
its 3-year-old blockade of the Hamas-ruled territory has improved the lives
of ordinary Gazans.

Earlier this month, Israel said it would allow the import of most consumer
goods to Gaza. However, Israel continues to ban exports and restricts the
import of badly needed construction materials.

Ashton said Israel needs to go further and that there needs to be an opening
of the crossings to allow the flow of people and goods in both directions.

During her second visit to the Strip this year Ashton is to pay a visit to a
summer camp and a school run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency
for Palestine, which is set to receive an additional 1 million Euros (1.29
million dollars) in EU funding.

However, meetings with Hamas leaders are excluded in the schedule.

Israel normally shuts off the Palestinian enclave from international contact
to avoid contact with the Islamist group Hamas, considered a terrorist
organization by the EU and the United States.

Ashton is also set to meet Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, Foreign
Affairs Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
late Sunday.

Israeli media reported this week that Lieberman would be ready to make a
proposal to Ashton in order to hand over security inspections of goods and
people entering Gaza by land and sea to the international community.

Ashton will visit again the West Bank city of Ramallah on Monday to meet the
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

The EU foreign policy representative arrives in the region when the US
special envoy George Mitchell tries to give support to Palestinian and
Israeli governments to move from the current indirect talks with Israel to
direct negotiations.

Mitchell announced Saturday in Ramallah that he would tour several countries
in the region in an effort to gain support for the US peace plan in the
Middle East.

Ahead of her arrival, Ashton urged  Israel to open all Gaza border
crossings.

"We stand ready to support the opening of the Gaza crossings for the traffic
of goods to and from Gaza," Ashton said before departing for Israel.

Referring to a recent cabinet decision to lift the ban on some of the
products which Isrtael previously prohibited from entering the Strip, Ashton
said the EU "welcomed the announcements made by Israel following the
flotilla incident and are now awaiting their implementation."

"The European Union has been calling for an urgent and fundamental change of
policy regarding the closure of Gaza," Ashton continued.

During her visit, Ashton will meet with Israeli and Palestinian leadership -
including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Defense Minister Ehud Barak,
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and the Palestinian Authority President
Mahmoud Abbas and PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, as well as the Quartet's
special envoy to the Middle East, Tony Blair.
Ashton also reportedly plans to visit UNRWA projects sites in Gaza on
Sunday.

In its statement the PMO emphasized that the change would not counter
Israel's policy "to defend it citizens against terror, rocket fire or any
other hostile activities from Gaza."

Late last month, Israel approved a loosening in its blockade of the
Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, with the highlight of the new policy being the fact
that only weapons or "dual-use" materials that could be used to manufacture
weapons will be on the list. Any item not on the list will be permitted into
Gaza.

Large quantities of building materials are to be brought in for projects
with PA approval such as schools, clinics and water and sewage
infrastructure. Building materials for homes in Khan Yunis and other Gazan
towns will also be allowed in.

All construction projects are to be under close UN supervision to ensure
that Hamas does not use the building material for fortifications and
bunkers.

"Israel seeks to keep out of Gaza weapons and material that Hamas uses to
prepare and carry out terror and rocket attacks toward Israel and its
civilians," Netanyahu said. "All other goods will be allowed into Gaza."
 

 

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:The

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
The Lybian aid ship diverted to Egypt to offload cargo rather than attempt to run the blockade.

 

There is still no word if the blockade has in fact been "eased" as they claimed. Same for raw materials and exports.

 

Well, I am certainly aware that you are no fan of Israel. Not that anyone should require you do be but even so...

 

Every time I read a news story on this, it seems that there is a comment from Hammas on the matter. From what I understand, they have refused to let “allowable” stuff into the area on the grounds that they can't get the stuff that they are not allowed to have.

 

So after that total publicity stunt of a failed blockade run a few weeks ago had most of the stuff headed in to the area. However, along the way, lots of military equipment was sequestered. Night vision gear, body armor and similar stuff.

 

Hamas refused all of the food and medicine unless they got the guns and other stuff as well.

 

Way to go there. Let's see Israel send heart patients the medicine and hamas refuse it because they can't have the guns. Who is the bad guy now?

 

Consider a scenario where Israel decides to run the hamas blockade. I am not saying that this will happen or anything but if they decided to use a bunch of APCs to make sure that the trucks got in and the stuff got distributed, who would the demon be then?

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 Who is the bad guy now?

 

Hamas, Israel AND EGYPT. Everyone forgets about Egypt in all this. Egypt has a border with Gaza. They enact a blockade also. They kill those they catch illegally crossing the blockade. But no one cares. The Muslims at my school have week long protests every year about the Israelis but conveniently forget about Egypt's actions.

Israel attacks one boat violating the blockade and it is an international shitstorm. Egypt shoots people violating their blockade for years and ... the crickets chirp. It is as though there are two standards here. A Muslim nation such as Egypt does something evil. No one cares. I never hear people mention it. I certainly never hear protests over the action. The Israelis do that same thing on a much smaller scale. There are protests and condemnations of Israel left and right.

If we are going to get bent out of shape over all this, let's apply our rage evenly to all the assholes over there. Let's not forget about Hamas and Egypt in all this.

It makes me think that protesters against Israel are insincere in their objections. I mean, they don't care when a Muslim nation does something, but they scream and cry when the Israelis do that same thing. It comes off as being anti-Israeli just for the sake of being anti-Israeli rather than having legitimate complaints against them. Or maybe I've just spent too much time witnessing the actions of the Muslim Student Union on my campus.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
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The Egyptian blockade of

The Egyptian blockade of Gaza isn't wrong from a military, political or economic standpoint. It's hard to say it's even wrong in a moral sense because there is an obvious threat for them so at least it is a security measure, unlike Israel's blockade which is admittedly economic warfare. They have no interest in taking responsibility for the Gaza strip and risking being bombed themselves. Why should the Egyptians play into that? 

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Gauche wrote:The Egyptian

Gauche wrote:

The Egyptian blockade of Gaza isn't wrong from a military, political or economic standpoint. It's hard to say it's even wrong in a moral sense because there is an obvious threat for them so at least it is a security measure, unlike Israel's blockade which is admittedly economic warfare. They have no interest in taking responsibility for the Gaza strip and risking being bombed themselves. Why should the Egyptians play into that? 

Stop inserting reason into this, you!

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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so much hate for Israel in this thread

I am astonished by how anti-Israel this thread is.

 Anonymouse, do you really believe that the attacks in 1956 and 1967 were unwarranted? (In 1956 it was a response to an illegal blockade the Egyptians imposed on Israel in the Straight of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba. In 1967,  Egypt and Jordan signed a defense pact, simultaneously mobilized troops crossing UN lines to sit on Israel's border and blockaded the straight of Tiran.) 

 

 Gauche, why is Egypt's blockade more of a security measure than Israel's blockade? If anything, it is the other way around.

 

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


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I already told you why it is

I already told you why it is a security threat for Egypt. They risk the loss of 1.5 billion dollars annually in military aid and possibly being attacked. For Israel though it is admittedly economic warfare, this was reported in mcclatchy last week because a human rights group sued their government for access to their written statements. So if you want to defend someone I'd suggest that you not leap to it haphazardly, and get your violin in tune with them first by reading a newspaper.

That's not to say that I believe Egypt has done nothing wrong of course they are corrupt and I don't agree with their participation in the siege, but only that what they've done is for cause other than taking punitive action against a bunch of civilians.
 

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Well then we have an

Well then we have an economic war. So fucking what?

 

war=war

 

Economic=tool of war

 

I really fucking hate it when people talk about economic war as if it is something other than war. The whole fucking planet is at war with Iran. It happens to be an economic war. So fucking what?

 

Is that worse than the war that the beloved Billy Clinton waged against what used to be known as Yugoslavia? That was a war too. People used guns and people died from gun fire. Billy Clinton was better than GWB because of what exactly? They both were known for being wartime presidents. Except that Billy Clinton gets an automagic pass on anything that he does because he, well, I am not clear on why he gets a pass but he can do as he pleases in eastern Europe or something.

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The fucking what is that

The fucking what is that it's not a security measure, as I already stated.   


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Yah Gauche, there is no

Yah Gauche, there is no “security measure” going on here. That is just the lie that is being used to sell the matter to those who give a shit.

 

Israel is at war with Hammas, they just are not saying it specifically. Oh fucking well.

 

This just in: Hammas is at war with Israel. They are refusing to let medicine into the Gaza Strip because they cant get guns and ammunition. They say that they will allow everything in when everything is allowed in. Especially the stuff that they can use to murder Israeli citizens.

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Gauche wrote:I already told

Gauche wrote:

I already told you why it is a security threat for Egypt. They risk the loss of 1.5 billion dollars annually in military aid and possibly being attacked. For Israel though it is admittedly economic warfare, this was reported in mcclatchy last week because a human rights group sued their government for access to their written statements. So if you want to defend someone I'd suggest that you not leap to it haphazardly, and get your violin in tune with them first by reading a newspaper.

That's not to say that I believe Egypt has done nothing wrong of course they are corrupt and I don't agree with their participation in the siege, but only that what they've done is for cause other than taking punitive action against a bunch of civilians.
 

I know you have said that the blockade is economic warfare.

 

However, calling an action economic warfare does not preclude it from also serving purposes of increasing security. The blockade prevents a terrorist organization from receiving weapons. How can this possibly not be considered a security measure?

 

 

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Yah Gauche, there is no “security measure” going on here. That is just the lie that is being used to sell the matter to those who give a shit.

 

Israel is at war with Hammas, they just are not saying it specifically. Oh fucking well.

 

This just in: Hammas is at war with Israel. They are refusing to let medicine into the Gaza Strip because they cant get guns and ammunition. They say that they will allow everything in when everything is allowed in. Especially the stuff that they can use to murder Israeli citizens.

 

 

I never said they weren't at war. Certainly if you are under siege then you are at war. However, I have neither the time nor inclination to attempt to change your mind about what is defensible. I'm only attempting to highlight for others what it is that you find defensible, and that's punitive warfare waged against civilians in retaliation for voting the wrong way, as well as that you come from the two-wrongs-make-a-right school. Hamas denies medicine therefore Israel can deny food, "oh well", that apparently completes some circle according to you. 

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Whatthedeuce wrote:Gauche

Whatthedeuce wrote:

Gauche wrote:

I already told you why it is a security threat for Egypt. They risk the loss of 1.5 billion dollars annually in military aid and possibly being attacked. For Israel though it is admittedly economic warfare, this was reported in mcclatchy last week because a human rights group sued their government for access to their written statements. So if you want to defend someone I'd suggest that you not leap to it haphazardly, and get your violin in tune with them first by reading a newspaper.

That's not to say that I believe Egypt has done nothing wrong of course they are corrupt and I don't agree with their participation in the siege, but only that what they've done is for cause other than taking punitive action against a bunch of civilians.
 

I know you have said that the blockade is economic warfare.

 

However, calling an action economic warfare does not preclude it from also serving purposes of increasing security. The blockade prevents a terrorist organization from receiving weapons. How can this possibly not be considered a security measure?

 

 

Even if that was the case it wouldn't be a security measure to prevent people from receiving things that aren't weapons, like books, crayons and fruit juice which have all been turned away according to the BBC. 

Edit: I suppose the BBC could be lying though. I can't completely rule that out. Maybe everyone is lying because they hate Israel.

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Gauche wrote:Even if that

Gauche wrote:

Even if that was the case it wouldn't be a security measure to prevent people from receiving things that aren't weapons, like books, crayons and fruit juice which have all been turned away according to the BBC. 

Edit: I suppose the BBC could be lying though. I can't completely rule that out. Maybe everyone is lying because they hate Israel.

 edit: I'm not sure why you express doubts that Hamas is a security threat to Israel. The organization has a habit of firing rockets at Israel. The security threat seems pretty undeniable.

Since you didn't post a link, can I assume you are referring to this one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

I see no reason to think that the BBC is lying, but if you read the entire page, you would see that Israel only has official policy of banning items which have dual uses as or can be converted to weapons.

 

Also, since you chose to compare the justification of the Egyptian blockade to the Israeli blockade, the Egyptian blockade is clearly worse than Israel's. Before recently, Egypt had specifically stated that its tunnels are mainly for transporting people, not aid, and has denied transportation of even things like food and blankets. How is that more of a security measure than Israel's blockade?

 

 

 

 

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


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Before I address what you

Before I address what you said about Egypt I have to ask if you believe that what you've written here makes any sense at all. It's their official policy to do one thing but they've done something else, yet to you the official policy that was deviated from excuses the activity that actually occurred. Am I understanding this correctly?   

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Gauche wrote:Before I

Gauche wrote:

Before I address what you said about Egypt I have to ask if you believe that what you've written here makes any sense at all. It's their official policy to do one thing but they've done something else, yet to you the official policy that was deviated from excuses the activity that actually occurred. Am I understanding this correctly?   

 

I don't think that the action is excusable. By referring to official policy I was trying to state that the prevention of transporting things that appear to provide basic needs but cannot be used as a weapon or converted to a weapon was either a mistake, the result of an Israeli inspector intentionally breaking the law, or the result of us not being able to understand how certain things might be able to be converted to weapons. This is much different from an intentional inhumane action taken by the Israeli government.

 

 

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


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Whatthedeuce wrote:Gauche

Whatthedeuce wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Before I address what you said about Egypt I have to ask if you believe that what you've written here makes any sense at all. It's their official policy to do one thing but they've done something else, yet to you the official policy that was deviated from excuses the activity that actually occurred. Am I understanding this correctly?   

 

I don't think that the action is excusable. By referring to official policy I was trying to state that the prevention of transporting things that appear to provide basic needs but cannot be used as a weapon or converted to a weapon was either a mistake, the result of an Israeli inspector intentionally breaking the law, or the result of us not being able to understand how certain things might be able to be converted to weapons. This is much different from an intentional inhumane action taken by the Israeli government.

 

 

This is a quote taken from an associated press article you don't need a link because it's AP.

Quote:
Israel has allowed some previously banned food items into the Gaza Strip, officials said Wednesday

Admittedly food items were banned, so it's not a mistake or a breach of law. It's highly doubtful that most food items that were reportedly turned away could be converted into weapons such as cookies or fruit juice. So the question remains. Even if denying someone a weapon is a security measure how is it a security measure to deny something that isn't a weapon?  

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
The Lybian aid ship diverted to Egypt to offload cargo rather than attempt to run the blockade.

There is still no word if the blockade has in fact been "eased" as they claimed. Same for raw materials and exports.

Well, I am certainly aware that you are no fan of Israel. Not that anyone should require you do be but even so...

Remember the Liberty. www.ussliberty.org

Quote:
Every time I read a news story on this, it seems that there is a comment from Hammas on the matter. From what I understand, they have refused to let “allowable” stuff into the area on the grounds that they can't get the stuff that they are not allowed to have.

So far as I am aware no one took seriously the Nazi announcements of the what the folks in the Warsaw ghetto said. There is another Israeli story that Hamas confiscates "aid" and sells it.

As alway the issue should come down to, who has the right to tell them what they are allowed to have and in what quantities?

Quote:
So after that total publicity stunt of a failed blockade run a few weeks ago had most of the stuff headed in to the area. However, along the way, lots of military equipment was sequestered. Night vision gear, body armor and similar stuff.

Again the question is who is the source of this information. Another reasonable question is why the occupied are not permitted to defend themselves against foreign soldiers who regularly bomb them and at times invade. When Gen. Heydrich was assassinated Germany killed 1200 in reprisal. When one Israeli was killed by a rocket Israel killed 1200 in reprisal. One would expect the threshold of atrocity to be solely depended upon the numbers not the identity of the perp.

Quote:
Hamas refused all of the food and medicine unless they got the guns and other stuff as well.

Way to go there. Let's see Israel send heart patients the medicine and hamas refuse it because they can't have the guns. Who is the bad guy now?

Consider a scenario where Israel decides to run the hamas blockade. I am not saying that this will happen or anything but if they decided to use a bunch of APCs to make sure that the trucks got in and the stuff got distributed, who would the demon be then?

If your source is other than Israeli could you name that source and perhaps an exact quote or two? And if it is an Israeli source ask yourself how they know? Also ask yourself why you believe them.

As for medical treatment access to medical care even in life threatening cases is routinely denied to the people of Gaza.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Jormungander wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Who is the bad guy now?

Hamas, Israel AND EGYPT. Everyone forgets about Egypt in all this. Egypt has a border with Gaza. They enact a blockade also. They kill those they catch illegally crossing the blockade. But no one cares. The Muslims at my school have week long protests every year about the Israelis but conveniently forget about Egypt's actions.

I do not think anyone but Israel is claiming Israel is better than Egypt. The problem Isael does claim to be better than Egypt yet has a list of war crimes against Gaza,

Quote:
Israel attacks one boat violating the blockade and it is an international shitstorm. Egypt shoots people violating their blockade for years and ... the crickets chirp. It is as though there are two standards here. A Muslim nation such as Egypt does something evil. No one cares. I never hear people mention it. I certainly never hear protests over the action. The Israelis do that same thing on a much smaller scale. There are protests and condemnations of Israel left and right.

Let me get this straight. You consider it the same for Israel to stop foreigners from entering Egypt as it is for Israel to attack a ship in international waters and outside the military exclusion zone. Can you explain why they should be considered equivalent? I am not too sure what you mean by "smaller scale" but at least once I week I read of israeli storm troopers murdering people in Gaza. They shoot at anyone coming near the border even when clearly farmers. Sounds like murder to me. Add them to the list of war crimes.

Quote:
If we are going to get bent out of shape over all this, let's apply our rage evenly to all the assholes over there. Let's not forget about Hamas and Egypt in all this.

It makes me think that protesters against Israel are insincere in their objections. I mean, they don't care when a Muslim nation does something, but they scream and cry when the Israelis do that same thing. It comes off as being anti-Israeli just for the sake of being anti-Israeli rather than having legitimate complaints against them. Or maybe I've just spent too much time witnessing the actions of the Muslim Student Union on my campus.

As Israel claims to be an outpost of western civilization in the middle east it is more than reasonable to expect Israel to act like it. Instead it always claims to be no better than the worst of every middle eastern country.

It is amusing the only possible defense of Israel in regard to Gaza is that Egypt is no better when in fact the directly comparable examples are of people illegally crossing into Egypt with farmers attempting to farm their fields but get close to the fence when some bloodthirsty Jew decides he needs a bit of recreation.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Whatthedeuce wrote:

I am astonished by how anti-Israel this thread is.

And with good cause. The only good Zionist is a dead Zionist.

Quote:
Anonymouse, do you really believe that the attacks in 1956 and 1967 were unwarranted? (In 1956 it was a response to an illegal blockade the Egyptians imposed on Israel in the Straight of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba. In 1967,  Egypt and Jordan signed a defense pact, simultaneously mobilized troops crossing UN lines to sit on Israel's border and blockaded the straight of Tiran.)
Re: 1956, I do not like to appeal to authority but a man named Dwight David Eisenhower thought it was unwarranted too. Also I have no idea how you missed it but the Israel attack was to give Britain and France an excuse to invade and retake control of the Suez Canal. It is in all the history books.Re:1967, again not to appeal to authority but no one accepted Israel's claim that an attack was imminent. It was a war of choice by Israel and only a few years later Israeli PMs started admitting it. And specifically Moshe Dayan, defense minister, specifically stated Israel attacked Syria. Who told you Israel was justfiied and why did you believe them? 
Quote:
Gauche, why is Egypt's blockade more of a security measure than Israel's blockade? If anything, it is the other way around.

Egypt is lawfully controlling its borders. Israel blocking all access to the world just to show they can do it and get away with it. Israel is certainly not required to allow passage through Israel but the naval blockade is an act of war.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Yah Gauche, there is no “security measure” going on here. That is just the lie that is being used to sell the matter to those who give a shit.

In admitting Israel is lying one has to ask why you would expect anyone to believe anything Israel says. It also begs the question how you know what is true.

Quote:
Israel is at war with Hammas, they just are not saying it specifically. Oh fucking well.

If Israel is in fact at war with Hamas then why does it kill so many people who do not belong to Hamas? If Israel is at war with Hamas does not Hamas have the right to fire rockets into Israel? take prisoners? the usual rights of a combatant?

But if Israel is not declaring a state of war then it has no rights of a combantant in a war and it is all no more than collective punishment of innocent civilians.

It is odd izziehuggers think they have everything their way.

Quote:
This just in: Hammas is at war with Israel. They are refusing to let medicine into the Gaza Strip because they cant get guns and ammunition. They say that they will allow everything in when everything is allowed in. Especially the stuff that they can use to murder Israeli citizens.

I did a quick review of news I have collected and a search of Haaretz and you appear to be the only person making this claim about medicine and guns. Do you have a source or are you making it up?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Whatthedeuce wrote:

Gauche wrote:

I already told you why it is a security threat for Egypt. They risk the loss of 1.5 billion dollars annually in military aid and possibly being attacked. For Israel though it is admittedly economic warfare, this was reported in mcclatchy last week because a human rights group sued their government for access to their written statements. So if you want to defend someone I'd suggest that you not leap to it haphazardly, and get your violin in tune with them first by reading a newspaper.

That's not to say that I believe Egypt has done nothing wrong of course they are corrupt and I don't agree with their participation in the siege, but only that what they've done is for cause other than taking punitive action against a bunch of civilians.
 

I know you have said that the blockade is economic warfare.

 

However, calling an action economic warfare does not preclude it from also serving purposes of increasing security. The blockade prevents a terrorist organization from receiving weapons. How can this possibly not be considered a security measure?

As everyone should know by now this is NOT a weapons blockade. It is one that permits only 114 specfic items into Gaza and in limited quantities. And specific item means as in coriander seeds but not leaves. The list is that specific. A few weeks ago a trivial amount of clothing and shoes were allowed in for the first time in three years. Schoolbooks are not on the list nor are pencils or crayons. Why are they attacking children? Is it because of the rabbi who declared it is Halaka to kill children who will grow up to harm Jews?

Why do izziehuggers keep lying about the nature of this blockade which is still in place? What do schoolbooks have to do with weapons? Why is Israel punishing children?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Whatthedeuce wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Even if that was the case it wouldn't be a security measure to prevent people from receiving things that aren't weapons, like books, crayons and fruit juice which have all been turned away according to the BBC. 

Edit: I suppose the BBC could be lying though. I can't completely rule that out. Maybe everyone is lying because they hate Israel.

 edit: I'm not sure why you express doubts that Hamas is a security threat to Israel. The organization has a habit of firing rockets at Israel. The security threat seems pretty undeniable.

Since you didn't post a link, can I assume you are referring to this one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

I see no reason to think that the BBC is lying, but if you read the entire page, you would see that Israel only has official policy of banning items which have dual uses as or can be converted to weapons.

We know that is an izzie lie. Why must izzies lie about what they are doing?

Quote:
Also, since you chose to compare the justification of the Egyptian blockade to the Israeli blockade, the Egyptian blockade is clearly worse than Israel's. Before recently, Egypt had specifically stated that its tunnels are mainly for transporting people, not aid, and has denied transportation of even things like food and blankets. How is that more of a security measure than Israel's blockade?

Israel bans most foods and all blankets. If it is not one of the 114 approved items it is prohibited. What does that have to do with weapons?


Where are you getting this crap? I get mine from jpost.com and haaretz.com just to be sure the matter can not fall prey to the old trick of declaring the source antisemitic. "It is an old trick. We always use it."

BTW: In some eight years firing rockets into Israel only ONE person was killed. In that same period Israel killed well over a thousand Palestinians. Poor izzies. The suffer so much more than mere animals.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Gauche wrote:Answers in Gene

Gauche wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Yah Gauche, there is no “security measure” going on here. That is just the lie that is being used to sell the matter to those who give a shit.

 

Israel is at war with Hammas, they just are not saying it specifically. Oh fucking well.

 

This just in: Hammas is at war with Israel. They are refusing to let medicine into the Gaza Strip because they cant get guns and ammunition. They say that they will allow everything in when everything is allowed in. Especially the stuff that they can use to murder Israeli citizens.

 

 

I never said they weren't at war. Certainly if you are under siege then you are at war. However, I have neither the time nor inclination to attempt to change your mind about what is defensible. I'm only attempting to highlight for others what it is that you find defensible, and that's punitive warfare waged against civilians in retaliation for voting the wrong way, as well as that you come from the two-wrongs-make-a-right school. Hamas denies medicine therefore Israel can deny food, "oh well", that apparently completes some circle according to you. 

Hamas is also at war with Fatah (West bank palestinians) (as one staunch Zionistaposter noted in another forum in early 2008: "they kill each other.") What circle does that complete in your eyes?

Hammas/Hamas (however you prefer to transliterate it) wants to fight anyone they disagree with/is not as radically Islamic as they are... so why not move to Egypt? Why are the Egyptians content to let them starve in some over-crowded, narrow strip of land?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Gauche wrote:I already told

Gauche wrote:

I already told you why it is a security threat for Egypt. They risk the loss of 1.5 billion dollars annually in military aid and possibly being attacked. For Israel though it is admittedly economic warfare, this was reported in mcclatchy last week because a human rights group sued their government for access to their written statements. So if you want to defend someone I'd suggest that you not leap to it haphazardly, and get your violin in tune with them first by reading a newspaper.

That's not to say that I believe Egypt has done nothing wrong of course they are corrupt and I don't agree with their participation in the siege, but only that what they've done is for cause other than taking punitive action against a bunch of civilians.
 

Gaza Strip: the "bill" no one cares to pick up.

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Whatthedeuce wrote:I am

Whatthedeuce wrote:

I am astonished by how anti-Israel this thread is.

The human-animals want a state where Israel is no more and Palestine is the "nation" over there, so be it. I just though I might point out that it isn't going to happen under Hammas/Hamas (a terrorist/warfare-oriented entity's) watch.

I am personally apathetic to why there is an Israeli state to begin with...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:

Whatthedeuce wrote:

I am astonished by how anti-Israel this thread is.

The human-animals want a state where Israel is no more and Palestine is the "nation" over there, so be it. I just though I might point out that it isn't going to happen under Hammas/Hamas (a terrorist/warfare-oriented entity's) watch.

May I point out that fanatic, racist Jews wiped Palestine off the map and no one misses it. I cannot conceive of anyone missing Israel should it be wiped off the map. Should that happen the only problem will be Jews interminable whining about it.

Quote:
I am personally apathetic to why there is an Israeli state to begin with...

It was a consequence of the Zionist movement which is based upon the premise that Jews could never assimilate into Christian Europe. Two years later a child was born who, after WWI, adopted that same idea and went on to become Chancellor and then dictator of Germany. That agreement in principle is a partial explanation of why the Zionists and the Nazis cooperated so closely.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:  

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
So after that total publicity stunt of a failed blockade run a few weeks ago had most of the stuff headed in to the area. However, along the way, lots of military equipment was sequestered. Night vision gear, body armor and similar stuff.

 

Again the question is who is the source of this information. Another reasonable question is why the occupied are not permitted to defend themselves against foreign soldiers who regularly bomb them and at times invade. When Gen. Heydrich was assassinated Germany killed 1200 in reprisal. When one Israeli was killed by a rocket Israel killed 1200 in reprisal. One would expect the threshold of atrocity to be solely depended upon the numbers not the identity of the perp.

 

Quote:
Hamas refused all of the food and medicine unless they got the guns and other stuff as well.

 

Way to go there. Let's see Israel send heart patients the medicine and hamas refuse it because they can't have the guns. Who is the bad guy now?

 

Consider a scenario where Israel decides to run the hamas blockade. I am not saying that this will happen or anything but if they decided to use a bunch of APCs to make sure that the trucks got in and the stuff got distributed, who would the demon be then?

 

If your source is other than Israeli could you name that source and perhaps an exact quote or two? And if it is an Israeli source ask yourself how they know? Also ask yourself why you believe them.

 

As for medical treatment access to medical care even in life threatening cases is routinely denied to the people of Gaza.

 

Well, my source was several articles which I got from my google news feed back when the story was current. I did some checking but I cannot now find them. Believe me, if I could link you, I would.

 

Anyway, what I remember is that after the publicity stunt of a failed blockade run, all of the ships ended up in the port that Israel had designated for all aid. Some time later, all of the aid had been offloaded and inspected. Among all the food and medicine, the Israeli authorities found a crap load of body armor, night vision gear and weapons with ammunition.

 

So Israel (remember that they were looking to score some good boy points at the time) loaded up all of the allowed aid and tried to truck it in. However, Hamas decided to block the trucks at the border, stating that they would not allow anything in unless they got everything.

 

Pardon me but how the fuck would they even know that they were not getting the whole shipment unless the so called “peaceful activists” had already sent the secret shipping manifest listing all of toys of war ahead of the actual shipment? Facing facts, Hamas is toying with the lives of people they are supposedly the government of.

 

Also, they are still holding that Israeli soldier they captured a couple of years ago. There have been several rounds of talks to get him released but they keep failing despite the good intentions of other nations sponsoring the talks. The main reason seems to be that Hamas only intends to release him on terms that they get back something like 1,000 Hamas combatants being held in Israel.

 

A thousand soldiers for one hardly seems like a reasonable deal. Hell's bells but ten to one comes off as over the top to me. Even so, if Israel was willing to accept a ten for one trade and Hamas said no to that, then Hamas comes off as stinking like shit on this one.

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
So after that total publicity stunt of a failed blockade run a few weeks ago had most of the stuff headed in to the area. However, along the way, lots of military equipment was sequestered. Night vision gear, body armor and similar stuff.

 

Again the question is who is the source of this information. Another reasonable question is why the occupied are not permitted to defend themselves against foreign soldiers who regularly bomb them and at times invade. When Gen. Heydrich was assassinated Germany killed 1200 in reprisal. When one Israeli was killed by a rocket Israel killed 1200 in reprisal. One would expect the threshold of atrocity to be solely depended upon the numbers not the identity of the perp.

 

Quote:
Hamas refused all of the food and medicine unless they got the guns and other stuff as well.

 

Way to go there. Let's see Israel send heart patients the medicine and hamas refuse it because they can't have the guns. Who is the bad guy now?

 

Consider a scenario where Israel decides to run the hamas blockade. I am not saying that this will happen or anything but if they decided to use a bunch of APCs to make sure that the trucks got in and the stuff got distributed, who would the demon be then?

 

If your source is other than Israeli could you name that source and perhaps an exact quote or two? And if it is an Israeli source ask yourself how they know? Also ask yourself why you believe them.

 

As for medical treatment access to medical care even in life threatening cases is routinely denied to the people of Gaza.

Well, my source was several articles which I got from my google news feed back when the story was current. I did some checking but I cannot now find them. Believe me, if I could link you, I would.

I presume I do not have to remind you that feedback is open to anyone who can click on the word and can type. I do not see the reason to give the anonymous contributor credibility.

Quote:
Anyway, what I remember is that after the publicity stunt of a failed blockade run, all of the ships ended up in the port that Israel had designated for all aid. Some time later, all of the aid had been offloaded and inspected. Among all the food and medicine, the Israeli authorities found a crap load of body armor, night vision gear and weapons with ammunition.

So Israel (remember that they were looking to score some good boy points at the time) loaded up all of the allowed aid and tried to truck it in. However, Hamas decided to block the trucks at the border, stating that they would not allow anything in unless they got everything.

Pardon me but how the fuck would they even know that they were not getting the whole shipment unless the so called “peaceful activists” had already sent the secret shipping manifest listing all of toys of war ahead of the actual shipment? Facing facts, Hamas is toying with the lives of people they are supposedly the government of.

I do in fact read Israeli news sources every day. I have never heard of such a story or anything remotely like it on any aid ship. There was some ship supposedly destined for Gaza, a destination never established with evidence, which did contain weapons but it was never designated an aid ship. It was in fact a cargo ship with no pretention to being anything else.

I agree Hamas is not composed of Jeffersonian statesmen any more than is the government of Israel. Toying with lives is a non-specific allegation. I have specific allegations against Israel who limit the quantity of food based upon daily calory requirements multiplied by the number of people. As was said when it started "We will put them on a diet" which is exactly what is still being done.

So if there is a specific allegation against Hamas which would at this time require an allegation of totalitarian dictatorship to carry any weight please let me know what it is.

Quote:
Also, they are still holding that Israeli soldier they captured a couple of years ago. There have been several rounds of talks to get him released but they keep failing despite the good intentions of other nations sponsoring the talks. The main reason seems to be that Hamas only intends to release him on terms that they get back something like 1,000 Hamas combatants being held in Israel.

The soldier they captured was enforcing a border blockade. He is a member of a occupying military which to the present has murdered at least 2500 residents of Gaza. Such a situation reasonably categorizes the soldier as a POW. Negotiations for prisoner exchange were announced almost immediately by Hamas but it took Israel months to agree to start the negotiations. Israel has repeatedly refused to consider the release of some on the Hamas list while being willing to release hundreds who have a year or less to serve as well as nearly a hundred who have been held for years without charges.

Those held for violent resistance to the criminal occupation number about 40. Yes they are militants. So is the IDF soldier they captured. Israel has agreed to hundreds for one so that is not an issue. The only issue is which hundreds. Israel continues to refuse.

Quote:
A thousand soldiers for one hardly seems like a reasonable deal. Hell's bells but ten to one comes off as over the top to me. Even so, if Israel was willing to accept a ten for one trade and Hamas said no to that, then Hamas comes off as stinking like shit on this one.

Israel has previously agreed to hundreds to one trades. It has agreed to hundreds for one trade this time. So it is a reasonable expectation for Hamas to expect the usually Israeli hundreds for one exchange. One may consider it ridiculous but it is the rate of exchange established by Israel. It was sort of dumb to ever agree to a many for one exchange but once they did the exchange rate is in place. The exchange rate of hundreds for one has been agreed to this time. The only disagreement is which hundreds.

As you appear to have missed it, the objection to releasing the fifty or so Hamas wants is that they have shed Aryan blood -- excuse me, Jewish blood.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Kapkao

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

Whatthedeuce wrote:

I am astonished by how anti-Israel this thread is.

The human-animals want a state where Israel is no more and Palestine is the "nation" over there, so be it. I just though I might point out that it isn't going to happen under Hammas/Hamas (a terrorist/warfare-oriented entity's) watch.

May I point out that fanatic, racist Jews wiped Palestine off the map and no one misses it. I cannot conceive of anyone missing Israel should it be wiped off the map. Should that happen the only problem will be Jews interminable whining about it.

Quote:
I am personally apathetic to why there is an Israeli state to begin with...

It was a consequence of the Zionist movement which is based upon the premise that Jews could never assimilate into Christian Europe. Two years later a child was born who, after WWI, adopted that same idea and went on to become Chancellor and then dictator of Germany. That agreement in principle is a partial explanation of why the Zionists and the Nazis cooperated so closely.

It appears I'm a poor student of history...

Quote:
"How did Theodor Herzl, an assimilated German nationalist in the 1880s, suddenly in the 1890s become the founder of Zionism?"

So yes, it appears your recollection of history is correct.

Jews and National Socialists have cooperated in many more interesting, varied ways -at the individual level at least- (Including a Croatian jew who read Hitler's fortune in the 1920s, and was later assassinated because of his connection to the Nazi party's leader and their origins in general);

including a half jewish star acting in a pro-Nazi comedy.

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

Whatthedeuce wrote:

I am astonished by how anti-Israel this thread is.

The human-animals want a state where Israel is no more and Palestine is the "nation" over there, so be it. I just though I might point out that it isn't going to happen under Hammas/Hamas (a terrorist/warfare-oriented entity's) watch.

May I point out that fanatic, racist Jews wiped Palestine off the map and no one misses it. I cannot conceive of anyone missing Israel should it be wiped off the map. Should that happen the only problem will be Jews interminable whining about it.

Quote:
I am personally apathetic to why there is an Israeli state to begin with...

It was a consequence of the Zionist movement which is based upon the premise that Jews could never assimilate into Christian Europe. Two years later a child was born who, after WWI, adopted that same idea and went on to become Chancellor and then dictator of Germany. That agreement in principle is a partial explanation of why the Zionists and the Nazis cooperated so closely.

It appears I'm a poor student of history...

Quote:
"How did Theodor Herzl, an assimilated German nationalist in the 1880s, suddenly in the 1890s become the founder of Zionism?"

So yes, it appears your recollection of history is correct.

Jews and National Socialists have cooperated in many more interesting, varied ways -at the individual level at least- (Including a Croatian jew who read Hitler's fortune in the 1920s, and was later assassinated because of his connection to the Nazi party's leader and their origins in general);

including a half jewish star acting in a pro-Nazi comedy.

Google Haavara or Ha Avara or in English The Transfer agreement. There was open and organized cooperation between the Zionists and Nazi Germany. Germany was aiding the Zionists in getting Jewish Germans to Palestine. There is also a strong indication the Zionists cooperated in passing the Nuremberg laws to make Germany a less attractive place to live thus encouraging movement to Palestine. I saw a piece on PBS back in the late 90s filmed in Israel interviewing some Germans who arrived because of the Transfer Agreement. They played Wagner, were proud of their German heritage and one even had a large picture of Hitler over their fireplace.

NB. The was not a Black in the US in the 1930s who would not have traded the Nuremberg Laws for the Jim Crow laws in a heartbeat. They are highly overrated. On top of that the Nuremberg Laws are largely rabbinical teachings on living apart from the Goyim, i.e. animals.

 

The following is the closest match I can find to the story someone added as feedback. You will note Hezbollah is in Lebanon. Lebanon has agreed to disband the militant wing of Heabollah after it establishes a military equally capable of defending Lebanon against Israeli attack.

Haaretz

Last update - 00:21 05/11/2009

Israel instructs its diplomats: Use seized arms ship to direct pressure to Iran

By Barak Ravid and Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondents


Israel's Foreign Ministry issued a document to Israeli embassies and
consulates around the world on Wednesday, instructing employees to utilize
Israel's seizure of a ship carrying some 300 tons of weapons, believed to
have been shipped by Iran and meant for Hezbollah, to direct international
pressure toward Iran.

Israeli diplomats were instructed to stress Iran's violation of United
Nations Security Council resolutions forbidding it from supplying weapons to
Syria or Hezbollah.

The Francop was captured in the Mediterranean Sea by Israel Navy missile
boats and naval commandos late Tuesday night in an operation dubbed
Operation Four Species.

The arms shipment began its journey about 10 days ago aboard an Iranian ship
that sailed from the port of Bandar Abbas to the Mediterranean port of
Damietta (Dumyat) in Egypt. The cargo - which, according to a ship manifest,
was destined for Syria - was unloaded in Egypt, and then loaded three days
later onto the Francop, a German-owned ship operated by a Cypriot company.

The ship's crew reportedly did not know what the containers really held.
The navy, which tracks suspicious activity at sea along known smuggling
routes in the Mediterranean and the Red Sea, located the Francop shortly
after it left Damietta on Tuesday on its way to Limassol, Cyprus, and thence
to Syria. Toward evening, an Israeli navy missile boat made contact with the
Francop and asked to conduct a routine inspection of its cargo. Israeli
naval commandos boarded at around midnight on Tuesday, in rough seas, and
met with no resistance from the ship's crew of 11.

The Israeli naval personnel checked the ship's manifest, which showed that
the cargo was going to the Syrian port of Latakia, and began opening the
containers. They found sacks of polyethylene near the opening and along the
walls of the containers, but behind the sacks, they discovered numerous
crates of ammunition and artillery shells. At that point, they ordered the
crew to sail to Ashdod.

Upon the ship's arrival at the Israeli port, the lengthy process of
unloading the cargo began. It was expected to be completed on Thursday
morning.

The cargo included thousands of medium-range 107- and 122-millimeter
rockets, armor-piercing artillery, hand grenades and ammunition for
Kalashnikov rifles. Even with all the cargo not yet unloaded, the navy
estimated that the haul included more than 3,000 rockets and a total of 300
tons of weaponry. This compares to only 40 tons seized in 2002 on the Karine
A, whose weapons were destined for the Palestinians.

The rockets and artillery shells on the Francop were mostly manufactured
over the past two years, and though they had English-language markings,
intelligence officials believe that most were manufactured in Iran ¬ other
than the 122-millimeter rockets, which are apparently of Russian
manufacture.

Because of the manner in which the crates were hidden, the army is convinced
that the weapons were destined for Hezbollah in Lebanon. Such a shipment
would be a clear violation of UN Resolution 1701, which ended the Second
Lebanon War in 2006.

The cargo did not include rocket launchers or advanced weaponry that would
alter the balance of power with Israel. Nonetheless, the army said, the
rockets that were seized are the equivalent of about 10 percent of
Hezbollah's existing stock, and could have been used for weeks of intensive
shelling of northern Israel.

The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem instructed diplomats to emphasize in
interviews and conferences the fact that the ship that was seized en route
to Syria, with a planned stop in Beirut. The diplomats were further asked to
explain that the Israeli navy's actions, including diverting the ship to
Ashdod, were all executed with the crew's cooperation.

Israel will use this event to put Iran in the limelight. The Foreign
Ministry argues that this arms shipment is a blatant violation of UNSC
resolution 1747 which forbids Iran from exporting weapons and ammunition.
"Since these weapons are meant for the northern terror front, this is also a
blatant violation of UN resolution 1701," the memo read.

The Foreign Ministry also asked embassies and consulates to issue a
statement saying "Iran is continuing to smuggle weapons to terror
organizations under the guise of legitimate international trade, and thus
turns the Mediterranean Sea into a base for illegal activity."

It was further emphasized that "Iran is challenging the UN Security Council
and poses a strategic threat to the stability and peace of the world."
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Wednesday that anyone who was still
skeptical over Iran's continuous supply of weapons to terror organizations,
was given conclusive proof when the Francop's cargo was exposed.

"Iran is shipping weapons to terror organizations in order to attack Israeli
cities and kill its citizens. It is time that the international community
applied real pressure on Iran to stop these criminal actions, and support
Israel in its battle against terrorists and their patrons," Netanyahu said.
 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Whatthedeuce wrote:I am

Whatthedeuce wrote:

I am astonished by how anti-Israel this thread is.

I thought I might add that my original protests in Vastet's thread were originally directed at the leftists posting there at the time, and to Vastet himself when it became clear his views on the subject were... whacky, to say the least. (And certainly imperialistic)

I have never cared for (leftist) imperialists from the EU and my own North American continent attempting to dictate politics and diplomacy to nations and cultures they have no business meddling with.

As well, I'm at a loss for why we (USA) are still allies with a nation (Israel) that sends us false intel about geographic neighbors they aren't on good terms with (Iran.)

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote: Google

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Google Haavara or Ha Avara or in English The Transfer agreement. There was open and organized cooperation between the Zionists and Nazi Germany. Germany was aiding the Zionists in getting Jewish Germans to Palestine. There is also a strong indication the Zionists cooperated in passing the Nuremberg laws to make Germany a less attractive place to live thus encouraging movement to Palestine. I saw a piece on PBS back in the late 90s filmed in Israel interviewing some Germans who arrived because of the Transfer Agreement. They played Wagner, were proud of their German heritage and one even had a large picture of Hitler over their fireplace.

NB. The was not a Black in the US in the 1930s who would not have traded the Nuremberg Laws for the Jim Crow laws in a heartbeat. They are highly overrated. On top of that the Nuremberg Laws are largely rabbinical teachings on living apart from the Goyim, i.e. animals.

My "human-animals" remark refers to our entire species, and is borrowed from a number of sources, including "x", who seems to believe that in absence of economic socialization, humans behave like "feral animals". In modern biology, humans are considered merely to be much more highly intelligent, and cunning animals. I have my own reasons for referring to humans as human-animals.

To the best of my understanding, "Goyim" means "outsider" (more or less). I am one of the Goyim, despite my photobucket name "Iamjooish". I do have a Mediterranean French maternal grandfather who genuinely does appear of Hebrew descent; frizzy hair, pointed tip of the upper lip, and (I'll have to have one of his photos emailed to me by my mother to be sure) I'm almost positive he has the stereotypical "hook nose" of Hebrew individuals. Could be wrong...

He also has a lower palette, basically ruling out any recent Jewish heritage. I'm almost certain he is a long-separated cousin of an ancient Phoenician settlement on France's south coast. (Phoenician culture, much of which historically lies on Israel's northern coast and a few kilometers inwards)

Quote:
The following is the closest match I can find to the story someone added as feedback. You will note Hezbollah is in Lebanon. Lebanon has agreed to disband the militant wing of Heabollah after it establishes a military equally capable of defending Lebanon against Israeli attack.

You mean Hezbollah, correct? Laughing out loud

I know of Hizbollah/Hezbollah. I also know that the Maronites of Lebanon are not too terribly fond of them. In 2006 they dragged Israel and their homeland into conflict after holding (I think it was) two Israeli pilots captive for reasons... I am ignorant of without using google.


I know this much: it is highly doubtful the world will stand behind Hammas in their crusade against Israel. Fatah and PLO, is more of what we Americans call a "grey area"; the western human-animals are more sympathetic with Fatah and PLO, as near as I can tell.  I have my own reasons to want to see the state of Israel abolished. (that have nothing to do with Judaism)

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Google Haavara or Ha Avara or in English The Transfer agreement. There was open and organized cooperation between the Zionists and Nazi Germany. Germany was aiding the Zionists in getting Jewish Germans to Palestine. There is also a strong indication the Zionists cooperated in passing the Nuremberg laws to make Germany a less attractive place to live thus encouraging movement to Palestine. I saw a piece on PBS back in the late 90s filmed in Israel interviewing some Germans who arrived because of the Transfer Agreement. They played Wagner, were proud of their German heritage and one even had a large picture of Hitler over their fireplace.

NB. The was not a Black in the US in the 1930s who would not have traded the Nuremberg Laws for the Jim Crow laws in a heartbeat. They are highly overrated. On top of that the Nuremberg Laws are largely rabbinical teachings on living apart from the Goyim, i.e. animals.

My "human-animals" remark refers to our entire species, and is borrowed from a number of sources, including "x", who seems to believe that in absence of economic socialization, humans behave like "feral animals". In modern biology, humans are considered merely to be much more highly intelligent, and cunning animals. I have my own reasons for referring to humans as human-animals.

The most deadly species ever to walk the earth is a killer ape. And half of them are female. I hvae no problem with the observation.

That said, human animals is redundant and without contextual emphasis it reads as a distinction among humans.

Quote:
To the best of my understanding, "Goyim" means "outsider" (more or less). I am one of the Goyim, despite my photobucket name "Iamjooish". I do have a Mediterranean French maternal grandfather who genuinely does appear of Hebrew descent; frizzy hair, pointed tip of the upper lip, and (I'll have to have one of his photos emailed to me by my mother to be sure) I'm almost positive he has the stereotypical "hook nose" of Hebrew individuals. Could be wrong...

I suggest you take a look at the classical Greek and Roman noses. Starting at the eyebrow line or above and with some degree of a bulge of below the eyebrow line is an eastern Med characteristic. Look at the old coins and busts and see Alexander was more Jewish than Jesus -- add a smiley there if you like. The hair is another issue.

I have known a lot of Jews professionally. The hair and the nose are not that common just that they stand out as stereotypes. The hair is African probably via the eastern coast of the Red Sea to Africa connection. How many of those actually wound up as rabbis who were then imported to Khazaria to become Ashkenazis is anyone's guess as the issue is dominant and recessive for the genes responsible for those characteristics.

Quote:
He also has a lower palette, basically ruling out any recent Jewish heritage. I'm almost certain he is a long-separated cousin of an ancient Phoenician settlement on France's south coast. (Phoenician culture, much of which historically lies on Israel's northern coast and a few kilometers inwards)

Carthage was also Phoenician and it did hold much of the Med coast of Spain and France which is what got Rome interested in wiping them out. Probably wasn't so much Carthage itself but the Gauls were raiding Italy since before Romulus was born. Would have been great reinforcements in an open war and easy to encourage increased raiding.

Quote:
The following is the closest match I can find to the story someone added as feedback. You will note Hezbollah is in Lebanon. Lebanon has agreed to disband the militant wing of Heabollah after it establishes a military equally capable of defending Lebanon against Israeli attack.

You mean Hezbollah, correct? :D

I invented a new one of course.

Quote:
I know of Hizbollah/Hezbollah. I also know that the Maronites of Lebanon are not too terribly fond of them. In 2006 they dragged Israel and their homeland into conflict after holding (I think it was) two Israeli pilots captive for reasons... I am ignorant of without using google.

Actually it was either they entered Israel or they attempted to capture in Lebanon three foot soldiers all of which died in the attempt. Israel, for some incomprehensible reason, sent in a tank to retrieve them before knowing they were dead. The tank hit a very good mine which destroyed it. Israel added the body count from the tank intrusion to the excuse for war INSTEAD of negotiating a prisoner exchange.

As to who dislikes who in Lebanon the answer is yes. It does not reflect the real situation to point out only one that is disliked by others.

Israel was in fact looking for an excuse for that war. It is not a secret. Hezbollah drove Israel out of almost all of southern Lebanon after 18 years of occupation and it wanted payback. I can dig up all the details but in the war Israel announced three decreasing objectives and achieved none of them. Israel deliberately targeted Lebanese civilian infrastructure such as the airport and the power station. It is assumed by everyone that today Hezbollah is stronger and better armed than ever. Israel still occupied part of Lebanon giving the lawful justification of resistance to occupation to Hezbollah.

Quote:


I know this much: it is highly doubtful the world will stand behind Hammas in their crusade against Israel. Fatah and PLO, is more of what we Americans call a "grey area"; the western human-animals are more sympathetic with Fatah and PLO, as near as I can tell.  I have my own reasons to want to see the state of Israel abolished. (that have nothing to do with Judaism)

It is not a secret that Israel supported the creation of Hamas to create fundamentalist opposition to Fatah. That Israel gets bit by its own creation is the sort of thing we smirk about while professionally calling it blowback.

In the final analysis it always comes down to the people regardless of who represents them today. The people have their right to justice which is the same justice Jews demand of Germany. Germany never tried to beg off by saying it disliked who was representing Jews. The same applies to Palestinians. The longer it takes the more disruptive the solution.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Mom doesn't want me posting

Mom doesn't want me posting pictures of family on the internet (despite him being dead since the 70s.) His nose does have an obvious dip over his upper lip; it's hard to say for certain.

Again, I'm almost certain that one of my ancestors were sailors of the Bronze-Age, Mediterranean galleys. I may never know for certain, but one of my ancestors may have, in fact, been one of the few involved in developing the first biremes in one of the many seaports of the Phoenicians. It's a pipe-dream of learning my (hypothesized) lineage, admittedly. (The Phoenicians apparently have also colonized Greece and Carthage, though in what periods I'm not certain.)

Back to the original thrust of your post:

Quote:
In the final analysis it always comes down to the people regardless of who represents them today. The people have their right to justice which is the same justice Jews demand of Germany. Germany never tried to beg off by saying it disliked who was representing Jews. The same applies to Palestinians. The longer it takes the more disruptive the solution.

Yes; I'm of the strictest opinion that Palestinians should be free and be allowed to work, develop and (hopefully) prosper without interference from foreign agencies (such as Moussad.)

Much like Americans have been free, allowed to work, develop and prosper quite abundantly over the past two centuries.

The question is, as always, "how?".

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:

Mom doesn't want me posting pictures of family on the internet (despite him being dead since the 70s.) His nose does have an obvious dip over his upper lip; it's hard to say for certain.

Again, I'm almost certain that one of my ancestors were sailors of the Bronze-Age, Mediterranean galleys. I may never know for certain, but one of my ancestors may have, in fact, been one of the few involved in developing the first biremes in one of the many seaports of the Phoenicians. It's a pipe-dream of learning my (hypothesized) lineage, admittedly. (The Phoenicians apparently have also colonized Greece and Carthage, though in what periods I'm not certain.)

Not to burst a bubble but after 30 centuries at 5 generations per century it is unlikely there ia anyone from Europe who is not related to a person such as you describe.

Particular characteristics become common by having an more or less isolated gene pool where the characteristics become the most common. However simply one person marrying into the next village per generation after 150 generations would spread very far. When there is relative geographic isolation of villages such characteristics develop quickly. Phoenicia per se was relatively isolated in the beginning but even then as a trading culture their genes would spread like sailor genes alway do with shore leave. This is before considering rape on top of prostitution, seduction, courtesy use of slaves and a family in every port.

Quote:
Back to the original thrust of your post:

Quote:
In the final analysis it always comes down to the people regardless of who represents them today. The people have their right to justice which is the same justice Jews demand of Germany. Germany never tried to beg off by saying it disliked who was representing Jews. The same applies to Palestinians. The longer it takes the more disruptive the solution.

Yes; I'm of the strictest opinion that Palestinians should be free and be allowed to work, develop and (hopefully) prosper without interference from foreign agencies (such as Moussad.)

Much like Americans have been free, allowed to work, develop and prosper quite abundantly over the past two centuries.

The question is, as always, "how?".

Stop preventing it, is the obvious answer. Sanction Israel until it stops preventing it. Education at all levels that require leaving Gaza are terminated by Israel. A couple years back a Rhodes scholar was prevented from leaving. Simply finishing university and graduate degrees are prohibited. This includes both education in the West Bank, in Isael and outside the region entirely. And no one calls Israel on it.

Jews do not control the world. It just looks like they do.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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The meaning of Goyim

I have reviewed what references I have on the meaning of the word particularly in the Talmud. The meaning is cattle as an intentional reference to non-Jews who, as we all know, do not have jewish souls which are superior to the souls of the animals.

There is no credible way to interperate the word so mean simply non-Jews.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Quote:Stop preventing it, is

Quote:

Stop preventing it, is the obvious answer. Sanction Israel until it stops preventing it. Education at all levels that require leaving Gaza are terminated by Israel. A couple years back a Rhodes scholar was prevented from leaving. Simply finishing university and graduate degrees are prohibited. This includes both education in the West Bank, in Isael and outside the region entirely. And no one calls Israel on it.

Jews do not control the world. It just looks like they do.

In a more ideal, long-term solution would appear to be to have all other nations back away from Israel diplomatically, none the least of which is my own America - America is perhaps why Israel is as militarily strong as it is today. Israel mooches off of America in the dozens of billions of USD$ every year. Cut-off from this aid and having the remainder of Europe turn it's back to Israel, would make Israel very vulnerable to it's neighbors.

A gargantuan feat, no doubt, but no less gargantuan than imposing sanctions on Israel by the U.N.

And yes, I can understand the position of Israel should "do unto others what Israel would have them do unto itself". Securing sanctions against Israel would be... difficult, to say the least. Having the remainder of the World seeing Israel as a mooch that is better left to it's own devices, however, might not be so difficult. Time will tell, and more incidents like the Gaza flotilla will probably be required.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Kapkao
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:I have

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

I have reviewed what references I have on the meaning of the word particularly in the Talmud. The meaning is cattle as an intentional reference to non-Jews who, as we all know, do not have jewish souls which are superior to the souls of the animals.

There is no credible way to interperate the word so mean simply non-Jews.

My sources come up negative in reference to cattle. Granted, I have no means to look up "gwy" in "Semitic roots"...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Jormungander
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Kapkao wrote:Israel mooches

Kapkao wrote:
Israel mooches off of America in the dozens of billions of USD$ every year. Cut-off from this aid and having the remainder of Europe turn it's back to Israel, would make Israel very vulnerable to it's neighbors.

I read that we give more money each year to Israel's enemies than to Israel in foreign aid. So cutting off the whole middle east from our aid would arguably help Israel. I am in favor of cutting them all off. Israel is far past the 'sink or swim' point in its history. It doesn't need our money.

But the U.S. pro-Israel lobby won't let us cut off funding. Remember in the presidential and vice-presidential debates where all four candidates more or less pledged support of Israel? You don't go against the pro-Israel lobby in U.S. politics. We will keep shoveling money towards them regardless of whether or not they deserve or need it.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


A_Nony_Mouse
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.

Kapkao wrote:
Quote:
Stop preventing it, is the obvious answer. Sanction Israel until it stops preventing it. Education at all levels that require leaving Gaza are terminated by Israel. A couple years back a Rhodes scholar was prevented from leaving. Simply finishing university and graduate degrees are prohibited. This includes both education in the West Bank, in Isael and outside the region entirely. And no one calls Israel on it.

Jews do not control the world. It just looks like they do.

In a more ideal, long-term solution would appear to be to have all other nations back away from Israel diplomatically, none the least of which is my own America - America is perhaps why Israel is as militarily strong as it is today. Israel mooches off of America in the dozens of billions of USD$ every year. Cut-off from this aid and having the remainder of Europe turn it's back to Israel, would make Israel very vulnerable to it's neighbors.

I think we all agree this is not an ideal world and that kind of diplomacy is not going to happen as long as the US has so many rednecks voting. However the place to start is to tell the world exactly what Israel is like and its own newspapers do that.

Quote:
A gargantuan feat, no doubt, but no less gargantuan than imposing sanctions on Israel by the U.N.

In fact sanctions need not be much at all. It only requires oil be sanctioned and the lights go out in a week.

Quote:
And yes, I can understand the position of Israel should "do unto others what Israel would have them do unto itself". Securing sanctions against Israel would be... difficult, to say the least. Having the remainder of the World seeing Israel as a mooch that is better left to it's own devices, however, might not be so difficult. Time will tell, and more incidents like the Gaza flotilla will probably be required.

They have such a flair for dramatic suffering. No one suffers like Jews. As Golda Mier said, We will never forgive them for making us kill them.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml