original sin

liberatedatheist
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original sin

 quick little practice in logic: adam and eve committed the original sin by going against God's word and eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eating the fruit of the tree i assume gave them knowledge of good and evil. So it is implied that beforehand they did not know what is good and what is evil. so how can they have known that god is good and they going against his word is evil until after they ate the fruit. so really the original sin was carried out in ignorance. doesnt seem very fair to me or is God allowed to punish you for sins you did not know you were committing?

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Apparently Mr Pinkwhistle told the children not

 

to eat the fruit of the Magic Faraway Tree and because they did, now they must all die even unto their children's, children's, children to the power of lots.

So - if they could not tell what good and evil where until they knew what good and evil where, they still disobeyed god and must all die.

Because god is so loving and merciful that he sent his only contrived son to hang out up the 'Cross this makes perfect logical sense.

 

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"Ignorance of the law is no

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

 

My beef is that say your 2-year-old picks up a piece of candy at the store and you don't realize it until after it is down the hatch.  So you punish the toddler for the rest of her life and her children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.........

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:"Ignorance of the

cj wrote:

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

 

My beef is that say your 2-year-old picks up a piece of candy at the store and you don't realize it until after it is down the hatch.  So you punish the toddler for the rest of her life and her children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.........

Its not just that they didn't know, its that they could not have possibly known until you know they eat the fruit. which i find ironic. it reminds me of that xkcd comic\http://nniling.us/501/

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liberatedatheist wrote:cj

liberatedatheist wrote:

cj wrote:

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

 

My beef is that say your 2-year-old picks up a piece of candy at the store and you don't realize it until after it is down the hatch.  So you punish the toddler for the rest of her life and her children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.........

Its not just that they didn't know, its that they could not have possibly known until you know they eat the fruit. which i find ironic. it reminds me of that xkcd comic\http://nniling.us/501/

 

My two-year-old could not have known it was bad to eat the candy without paying.  But you are I have no excuse before the law.

EULA's are a bitch.

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liberatedatheist

liberatedatheist wrote:

 quick little practice in logic: adam and eve committed the original sin by going against God's word and eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eating the fruit of the tree i assume gave them knowledge of good and evil. So it is implied that beforehand they did not know what is good and what is evil. so how can they have known that god is good and they going against his word is evil until after they ate the fruit. so really the original sin was carried out in ignorance. doesnt seem very fair to me or is God allowed to punish you for sins you did not know you were committing?

I suppose they could have known it was wrong lawfully, but had no knowledge of evil existentially because they had never experienced before.

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Whether they knew the

Whether they knew the difference between good and evil doesn't matter. God told them not to do it, and they did anyway. Whether they believed God or not, he still told them not to. The serpent said God lied to them, and they ate it still. They knew who God was, and that He was their creator.

They knew not to, even if they did not understand good or evil, because God forbade it. That is why they were punished.

The analogy of the two year old only works when you tell the two year old not to do it. Of course, a two year old is a litle immature to understand what you do or do not want for them. Adam and Eve were fully functional, thinking humans. They understood.

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lrg644 wrote:Whether they

lrg644 wrote:
Whether they knew the difference between good and evil doesn't matter. God told them not to do it, and they did anyway. Whether they believed God or not, he still told them not to. The serpent said God lied to them, and they ate it still. They knew who God was, and that He was their creator. They knew not to, even if they did not understand good or evil, because God forbade it. That is why they were punished. The analogy of the two year old only works when you tell the two year old not to do it. Of course, a two year old is a litle immature to understand what you do or do not want for them. Adam and Eve were fully functional, thinking humans. They understood.

  So do you agree punishing all mankind forever is reasonable for eating some forbidden apples?  How does that work for you.  If you told your child not to eat the candy, and they did, would you lock them in the basement for eternity, and your grand children, and great grandchildren and so on.  Yup that seems appropriate, don't eat the candy or I will get you and everyone else too.   This apple story is so rediculous, it is laughable really.  Common think about it.  God creates heavens and earth, god creates man, gods creates forbidden apple tree and tells man not to eat them, man eats apples, god punishmes all men forever.  It is utterly upsurd in every way.  Why not oranges, or talking crocodiles? Pumpkins and gremlins?  Why the heck would god make a forbidden tree, to test adam and eve, why?  Why does he play these rediculous games?  It is good your holy book of choice starts right out with the upsurdities, no waisting time, straight to the bs. Talking snakes and forbidden apples, common buddy give your head a shake.  


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 And if they don't even

 And if they don't even have the concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, how are supposed to already 'know' that they have any obligation to 'obey' God?

It really is the most utterly absurd nonsense story.

If you still take it seriously in some form, it actually justifies the actions of every tyrant dictator - do what I say, or else.

It also justifies the evils of every ongoing conflict over some ancient 'wrong', such as in the Balkans, where I have often heard  the justification that "their fathers (or grandfathers, or great-grandfathers, etc) committed sone wrong against ours".

It is a totally evil myth.

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All the alleged moral motifs

All the alleged moral motifs in the bible are nothing but designs to get one to buy into the head character, the boss, and nothing to do with selflessness or altruism.

The story smacks of at best, a super hero who plays with lab rats, if we are being kind. But he treats them worse than lab rats because, unlike scientists in real life, God already knows everything so there would be no reason for their ultimate suffering that he set up in the first place. At least with animal testing, even though cruel, and humanity increasingly is trying to get away from that, at least humans are learning something.

It is nothing but a story to put fear into believers to get them to believe in this cosmic tyrant. There is nothing moral about punishing the innocent and blaming them for what he chose to set up in the first place but didn't have to.

The Adam and Eve story reflects the behavior of an abusive spouse who doesn't want his partner going to college and would be insecure if the woman wanted equality in the relationship. Then he not only goes on to allow them to suffer, he punishes every generation after them for something he didn't have to allow in the first place.

How many people today blame themselves for slavery? We might agree that it was bad, but we don't blame ourselves for what our ancestors did. But 2,000 years after that convoluted crap was written people still want to blame "sin" on the fall of Adam and Eve. It is an insidious story lacking any real morality of modern times. It reflects the rantings of a tribal gang, "If you leave me, or disobey me, I will beat the shit out of you, and your kids as well" EVEN IF, you didn't realize what you had done.

The Adam and Eve story deserves the same respect as Osama Bin Laden.

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The serpent said? WTF?

 

lrg644 wrote:
The serpent said God lied to them, and they ate it still. They knew who God was, and that He was their creator. They knew not to, even if they did not understand good or evil, because God forbade it. That is why they were punished. The analogy of the two year old only works when you tell the two year old not to do it. Of course, a two year old is a litle immature to understand what you do or do not want for them. Adam and Eve were fully functional, thinking humans. They understood.

 

Assertion, assertion, assertion, assertion, assertion, assertion, assertion, assertion, assertion, assertion.

 

 

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Ignorance!

liberatedatheist wrote:

so really the original sin was carried out in ignorance. doesnt seem very fair to me or is God allowed to punish you for sins you did not know you were committing?

 The original sin was not carried out in ignorance. Genesis 2:16 clearly states that God commanded the man. A command implies that instruction is given therefore the man is without excuse. Your statement that God punishes for sins that we don't know about is completely erroneous.

 

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

liberatedatheist wrote:

so really the original sin was carried out in ignorance. doesnt seem very fair to me or is God allowed to punish you for sins you did not know you were committing?

 The original sin was not carried out in ignorance. Genesis 2:16 clearly states that God commanded the man. A command implies that instruction is given therefore the man is without excuse. Your statement that God punishes for sins that we don't know about is completely erroneous.

 

 

Well maybe if this god of yours wasn't so demanding and gave explanation, this Adam and Eve in question wouldn't have wondered why he ordered them not to eat the fruit instead of finding out for themselves. That god is sneaky sob!

Edit: did you christians ever think maybe that since this god is supernatural then he was the snake? You know like that blue chick thing on x-men. He morphed into a serpent and tricked their asses!

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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

liberatedatheist wrote:

so really the original sin was carried out in ignorance. doesnt seem very fair to me or is God allowed to punish you for sins you did not know you were committing?

 The original sin was not carried out in ignorance. Genesis 2:16 clearly states that God commanded the man. A command implies that instruction is given therefore the man is without excuse. Your statement that God punishes for sins that we don't know about is completely erroneous.

 

 

If an instruction is given but not understood, how can it be implemented?
 

God rigged the test to fail.

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In reading the whole story

In reading the whole story instead of cherry picking, it makes a little more sense. In Gen 3:23, Yahweh explains his actual reasoning behind forbidding the fruit. The consumption of the fruit gave humanity the same powers of perception as that of the gods, with plurality noted, causing Yahweh to fear their rivaling his power. This is a cowardly, weak god, too insecure to share even knowledge of morality, and the story has its origin in Mesopotamian mythology where Adapa, tricked by the god Enki, fails to eat of the food of life, thus passing up the chance of immortality. 

 

Like Enki to Adapa, Yahweh lied to Adam, stating in Gen 2:17 that on the very day (Hebrew word yohm, literal day) that he ate the fruit, he would die.  As Adam did not fall down dead upon eating the fruit, Yahweh was proven a liar and the noble serpent was punished unjustly for his honesty, setting the precedence for unjustified bullying and unlawful retribution ever after.

 

Of course if Christians ever bothered studying their religion and its origins, they would know that this is a plagiarized myth and we would not be having this conversation to begin with.

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jcgadfly wrote:If an

jcgadfly wrote:

If an instruction is given but not understood, how can it be implemented?
 God rigged the test to fail.

 Do not eat from this tree is a very simple instruction that even a young child can understand. Your implication that Adam did not understand God is presumptuous on your part. Your exegesis of the verse is incorrect.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Oh ok so he exspected some

Oh ok so he exspected some dude he made from dirt to automatically understand not to eat a fruit? Adam and Eve, though just being created, should have fully known the word of god and knew he was right? Why would he have left them unsupervised if they were to stupid to listen?

This is like me telling my son not to eat a piece of candy because it fell on the floor. Do you think he will listen. If he doesn't should I seriously punish him?

And what waz the big problem wifh this fruit? It was rigged damnit! He let them be hungry and told them not to eat. They ate it because they were hungry. So they were forbidden to have the instincts to eat when hungry that he gave them. That's fuckin stupid.

Your point is what? Cuz this is rediculous. You know we don't buy this crap.

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Desdenova wrote:In reading

Desdenova wrote:

In reading the whole story instead of cherry picking, it makes a little more sense. In Gen 3:23, Yahweh explains his actual reasoning behind forbidding the fruit. The consumption of the fruit gave humanity the same powers of perception as that of the gods, with plurality noted, causing Yahweh to fear their rivaling his power. This is a cowardly, weak god, too insecure to share even knowledge of morality, and the story has its origin in Mesopotamian mythology where Adapa, tricked by the god Enki, fails to eat of the food of life, thus passing up the chance of immortality.

 

God's admission that the man "has become like one of Us" does not indicate that the serpent's suggestion that God was insecure about His position was correct. God was not threatened by the man's wisdom when He expelled him from the garden, but it was necessary to prohibit Adam and Eve's access to the tree of life or the penalty of death for disobedience could not be carried out. Although they would die, it was merciful to deny them the tree, otherwise they would live forever in a sinful and painful world. God graciously provided for their new environment outside the garden and ultimately for their eternal salvation through the promised seed.

 

Desdenova wrote:
Like Enki to Adapa, Yahweh lied to Adam, stating in Gen 2:17 that on the very day (Hebrew word yohm, literal day) that he ate the fruit, he would die.  As Adam did not fall down dead upon eating the fruit, Yahweh was proven a liar and the noble serpent was punished unjustly for his honesty, setting the precedence for unjustified bullying and unlawful retribution ever after. 

Your exegesis of the verse is incorrect! The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree he became instantly mortal. Every moment of a person's life may be considered as an act of dying. The verse if taken correctly is meant to imply certain corporal death in the foreseeable future. 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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rebecca.williamson wrote:Oh

rebecca.williamson wrote:
Oh ok so he exspected some dude he made from dirt to automatically understand not to eat a fruit? Adam and Eve, though just being created, should have fully known the word of god and knew he was right? Why would he have left them unsupervised if they were to stupid to listen? This is like me telling my son not to eat a piece of candy because it fell on the floor. Do you think he will listen. If he doesn't should I seriously punish him? And what waz the big problem wifh this fruit? It was rigged damnit! He let them be hungry and told them not to eat. They ate it because they were hungry. So they were forbidden to have the instincts to eat when hungry that he gave them. That's fuckin stupid. Your point is what? Cuz this is rediculous. You know we don't buy this crap.

I'm just telling you the absolute truth Rebecca! Satan is the father of lies and he cares for know one but himself. We have a choice. We can serve the Lord Jesus Christ or we can serve Satan. Why do atheists spend so much time trying to disprove the existence of God if they are certain there is no God? Seems to me atheists could use their time more wisely if they are certain in their assumptions.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:God's

Lee2216 wrote:

God's admission that the man "has become like one of Us" does not indicate that the serpent's suggestion that God was insecure about His position was correct. God was not threatened by the man's wisdom when He expelled him from the garden, but it was necessary to prohibit Adam and Eve's access to the tree of life or the penalty of death for disobedience could not be carried out. Although they would die, it was merciful to deny them the tree, otherwise they would live forever in a sinful and painful world. God graciously provided for their new environment outside the garden and ultimately for their eternal salvation through the promised seed.

 

Hmmm! Again, perhaps were you to examine the passage in its entirety...

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever 

So, he was going to both die and live forever? Absolutely astonishing! No, no, it seems rather clear once the cherry picking ceases that Yahweh was being less than honest to his golem Adam made of Adamah.

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Your exegesis of the verse is incorrect! The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree he became instantly mortal. Every moment of a person's life may be considered as an act of dying. The verse if taken correctly is meant to imply certain corporal death in the foreseeable future. 

Sorry, but yohm there was used in the singular sense. In those instances, yohm is always found in the Torah to mean a 24 hour period, just as it meant a 24 hour period in Gen 30 when Laban sets a 3 day journey period between himself and Jacob. The word would be rendered meaningless when attached to a unit of measurement in Genesis were it to be read any other way.  This is especially apparent in Genesis due to the extent the word was used. In each of over 350 times it was used in Genesis 1, it always stood for a static measurement of time.  In light of this, the author of Genesis would have taken care to use the word qedem to indicate a non-specific but finite period of time.  Also pay note to the duplicate word at the end when read in Hebrew. Muwth Muwth.  This word is death, made explicit and imminent in duplication. The very passage above this, 2:16 makes use of the exact form with 'akal 'akal, or "eat now as you will" expressing immediate action. Why would the author obscure his meaning in 2:17 by going contrary not only to the rest of Genesis, but specifically to the imminence of the passage immediately proceeding 2:18? Doesn't make a lot of sense unless you've wedged your cranium into an ill fitting orifice.

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Satan is the father of lies?

Lee2216 wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:
Oh ok so he exspected some dude he made from dirt to automatically understand not to eat a fruit? Adam and Eve, though just being created, should have fully known the word of god and knew he was right? Why would he have left them unsupervised if they were to stupid to listen? This is like me telling my son not to eat a piece of candy because it fell on the floor. Do you think he will listen. If he doesn't should I seriously punish him? And what waz the big problem wifh this fruit? It was rigged damnit! He let them be hungry and told them not to eat. They ate it because they were hungry. So they were forbidden to have the instincts to eat when hungry that he gave them. That's fuckin stupid. Your point is what? Cuz this is rediculous. You know we don't buy this crap.

I'm just telling you the absolute truth Rebecca! Satan is the father of lies and he cares for know one but himself. We have a choice. We can serve the Lord Jesus Christ or we can serve Satan. Why do atheists spend so much time trying to disprove the existence of God if they are certain there is no God? Seems to me atheists could use their time more wisely if they are certain in their assumptions.

 

 

And you are telling the absolute truth? What is the absolute truth? Is it the circular truth of the bible is true 'cause written by god?

You sound exactly like my mother. And don't be thankful she'll be there with you in heaven - she'll be bringing her keswick hymnbook and she sings like a gang gang with a stubbed toe.

 

 

 

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Behold

 

Lee2216 wrote:

We can serve the Lord Jesus Christ or we can serve Satan.

 

Empirical evidence of the effects of the bible harness...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Lee2216 wrote: ...Satan is

Lee2216 wrote:

 

...Satan is the father of lies and he cares for know one but himself. ...

Pre or Post Persian Satan? You do know the difference, don't you? Satan was Yahweh's prosecuting attorney and loyal lackey until the Persians conquered Babylon and introduced the Hebrew to the Zoroastrian concept of dualism ya know. I mean you are a Christian, so surely you actually study this stuff, right?

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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Why are Atheists so angry?

 I would really like to know what Atheists are so angry about? Why are you guys even debating in these forums if you have empirical evidence that there is no God. Shouldn't you all be using your time wisely. You look foolish debating about someone that doesn't exist.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:
Oh ok so he exspected some dude he made from dirt to automatically understand not to eat a fruit? Adam and Eve, though just being created, should have fully known the word of god and knew he was right? Why would he have left them unsupervised if they were to stupid to listen? This is like me telling my son not to eat a piece of candy because it fell on the floor. Do you think he will listen. If he doesn't should I seriously punish him? And what waz the big problem wifh this fruit? It was rigged damnit! He let them be hungry and told them not to eat. They ate it because they were hungry. So they were forbidden to have the instincts to eat when hungry that he gave them. That's fuckin stupid. Your point is what? Cuz this is rediculous. You know we don't buy this crap.

I'm just telling you the absolute truth Rebecca! Satan is the father of lies and he cares for know one but himself. We have a choice. We can serve the Lord Jesus Christ or we can serve Satan. Why do atheists spend so much time trying to disprove the existence of God if they are certain there is no God? Seems to me atheists could use their time more wisely if they are certain in their assumptions.

Why do christians spend so much time trying to prove there is a god ic they're so certain there is one? Why do christians get so upset that atheists don't buy into the god delusion? Seems christians could be spending more time doing GOOD things lol instead of coming here condemning atheists to hell.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


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Lee2216 wrote:  I would

Lee2216 wrote:

 I would really like to know what Atheists are so angry about? Why are you guys even debating in these forums if you have empirical evidence that there is no God. Shouldn't you all be using your time wisely. You look foolish debating about someone that doesn't exist.

Who says we're angry? We are debating on here because this is an atheists site. Some people don't have other like minded people to talk to about atheism. Some people come here so that they don't feel alone in their thoughts with it. Everyone in both sides of my family claim to be christian except for my husband.

Therefor we are kinda the outcasts. We found this site and we've enjoyed being able to talk to other people who share our views on religion. Particularly myself. See how you just tsaid we look foolish? According to christians, it's a sin to call someone a fool.

It's amazing to me the christians who are supposedly so much better than us atheists come here to take out their aggressions on atheists. We aren't angry. You are. Stop your whinning.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


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Lee2216 wrote: I would

Lee2216 wrote:

 I would really like to know what Atheists are so angry about? Why are you guys even debating in these forums if you have empirical evidence that there is no God. Shouldn't you all be using your time wisely. You look foolish debating about someone that doesn't exist.

Read these:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/why_are_atheists_angry

http://www.rationalresponders.com/why_are_atheists_so_angry_0

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17502

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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

If an instruction is given but not understood, how can it be implemented?
 God rigged the test to fail.

 Do not eat from this tree is a very simple instruction that even a young child can understand. Your implication that Adam did not understand God is presumptuous on your part. Your exegesis of the verse is incorrect.

Without knowing what good and evil were or the difference between them? Remember what this tree was.

Or God could have left the tree off his plans...

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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rebecca.williamson wrote:Why

rebecca.williamson wrote:
Why do christians spend so much time trying to prove there is a god ic they're so certain there is one? Why do christians get so upset that atheists don't buy into the god delusion? Seems christians could be spending more time doing GOOD things lol instead of coming here condemning atheists to hell.

There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God. Look all around you! It's a miracle that you have the gift of breathing and living and getting up everyday. Where do you suppose the universe and everything in it came from? If your answer is the big bang then what caused the big bang? It didn't come from nothing? I can't speak for all Christians but it is very sad to see people deny their Creator who loves them and sent His only Son to die on a cross for your sins as well as mine. Salvation is a free gift that has been purchased for you. You don't have to work for it or earn it because know one can. Coming on this web site and telling you the truth is a good thing. Who are the first people to respond when calamities happen through out the world? It's the Christians not the atheists. I'm not condemning you, you are condemning yourself by not believing.

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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The world around me should

The world around me should be proof of god? The birds, the trees, the people who do evil things, all this should be proof? It's a miracle I'm breathing because of god? This is the shit that irritates me so yeah, maybe I am angry. You know I don't believe this mess yet you sit there a type to me that I should thank god for the fact that I'm even alive.

So he supposedly made his son suffer by being nailed to a cross and dying a horrible death. I didn't ask him to and if he had I would have advised against it. That's horrible imo. I would never sacrifice one of my kids for anything. However I would sacrifice my self for any of my three kids lives.

How is it christians are the first to respond to bad things that happen in the world? Were all of the people who responded to the 911 attacks christians? Do you have statistics on this? See you portray christians as great people yet you just tried to slam atheists because you don't think we do good things.

Oh and if this god is so great and I should be thanking him then tell me why all three of my children have had it so hard. I won't get into details but I will tell you that one has almost died three times. I should thank god for scaring the shit out of me? The reason this child is still here has nothing to do with god and everything to do with the medical staff and the education they got.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

If an instruction is given but not understood, how can it be implemented?
 God rigged the test to fail.

 Do not eat from this tree is a very simple instruction that even a young child can understand. Your implication that Adam did not understand God is presumptuous on your part. Your exegesis of the verse is incorrect.

 

OK.  But, if Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong, how were they supposed to tell one supposed authority from another?  Really, what they had to work with was a dude in a long robe saying that apples are poisonous and a walking talking snake that said they were not.

 

Also, if god really does know everything, then he knew that no good could come from putting the tree in the garden in the first place.  So WTF was it doing there?

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


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rebecca.williamson

rebecca.williamson wrote:

According to christians, it's a sin to call someone a fool. It's amazing to me the christians who are supposedly so much better than us atheists come here to take out their aggressions on atheists. We aren't angry. You are. Stop your whinning.

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." Psalm 14:1 

Not ok to call someone a fool - Matthew 5:22

Ok to call someone a fool - Psalm 14:1, Luke 11:40, Luke 24:25, Romans 1:21-22, 1 Corinthians 15:36, Galatians 3:1

I never said I was better than you. According to the scriptures know one is good Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19

I'm angry? That's news to me!

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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 Rebecca, where did the

 Rebecca, where did the universe and everything in it come from? I would love to hear your answer!

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:

According to christians, it's a sin to call someone a fool. It's amazing to me the christians who are supposedly so much better than us atheists come here to take out their aggressions on atheists. We aren't angry. You are. Stop your whinning.

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." Psalm 14:1 

Not ok to call someone a fool - Matthew 5:22

Ok to call someone a fool - Psalm 14:1, Luke 11:40, Luke 24:25, Romans 1:21-22, 1 Corinthians 15:36, Galatians 3:1

I never said I was better than you. According to the scriptures know one is good Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19

I'm angry? That's news to me!

Sure you are! We are, aren't we? Your anger has to do with the fact that there are atheists and we won't take this biblical nonsence for real. Ours has to do with the fact that you christians try to push it in our face and you get your churches to praise this supernatural being. We don't get to have churches. There are some but very few. Holy churches are on every street corner..

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


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Lee2216 wrote:  Rebecca,

Lee2216 wrote:

 Rebecca, where did the universe and everything in it come from? I would love to hear your answer!

I would love to hear you tell me that you know there are contradictions in the bible so you christians really don't know what parts are right and what parts are wrong. Or is it that sometimes some things are ok and other times they aren't? Explain that and I will try to explain my thoughts on how this world came about. Remember, I need admission about contradictions.

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Lee2216 wrote: Rebecca,

Lee2216 wrote:

 Rebecca, where did the universe and everything in it come from? I would love to hear your answer!

 

Lee, where did god come from? If you insist that everything must have a creator, who or what created god? Something as complex as a god could not simply exist without a creator. This is of course applying your own logic and criteria. Should we apply Occam's Razor to ithis, a self forming but unaware universe is still more likely than a self forming but self aware deity plus a universe as the latter requires even more explanation than the former.

 

The argument from ignorance only works if you apply special conditons to your supernatural answer. As neither god nor the supernatural has any evidence of existing, and as the universe obviously does exist, your 'goddidit!' hypothesis falls flat on its face while making you look ignorant for even suggesting it.

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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Lee2216 wrote: The fool

Lee2216 wrote:

 

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." Psalm 14:1 

 

 

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html wrote:

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.

 

I'm not a Taoist or a Buddhist, but every philosophy/faith/religion has a take on fools.  I like Taoism a whole lot better than christianity.  At least it doesn't try to guilt trip any one.

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Lee2216 wrote: Rebecca,

Lee2216 wrote:

 Rebecca, where did the universe and everything in it come from? I would love to hear your answer!

 

Your parents screwed on a night your mother was fertile.  That is where we all came from. 

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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rebecca.williamson

rebecca.williamson wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 Rebecca, where did the universe and everything in it come from? I would love to hear your answer!

I would love to hear you tell me that you know there are contradictions in the bible so you christians really don't know what parts are right and what parts are wrong. Or is it that sometimes some things are ok and other times they aren't? Explain that and I will try to explain my thoughts on how this world came about. Remember, I need admission about contradictions.

Your avoiding my question because you have no answer. There aren't any contradictions. You are the one claiming there are contradictions so why don't you point them out for me.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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I was fully prepared to give

I was fully prepared to give an answer and he runs. How typical. He refused to answer my question though he already typed out the contradiction himself in a previous post.

Here Lee, I will answer your question even though you wouldn't answer mine despite you typing it.

Everything comes from something. The earth is not 6,000 years old like bible thumpers like to think. Who knows how old it is? I'm not sure anyone knows for sure. I don't knkw exactly how we got here and I'm woman enough to admit it.

It's all theory. As I'm sure you know, the continents drifted apart. The way the world is now is not the way it was millions of years ago. Things change and things evolve. Do you not ever notice how lizards for example, resemble dinosaurs? There were flying ones, there were feathered ones and so on. Even emu's resemble dinosaurs. Of course I can't recall each and every name for certain dinosaurs but there were bird like ones.

Anyway, I'm not the science freak though I did make straight A's in science/biology in school. The big bang theory does make a great deal of sense to me. There are planets out there right now that the temperatures won't permit living beings but who knows? Thousands of years from now they could. I believe one part is too cold while ghe other part is too hot.

But just like we had the ice age here and now we don't, that could all change on that planet. It could all even out later. I believe if I'm not mistaken this falls under the evolution category and aigs, correct me where needed cuz your way smarter than me in the science field.

My point being Lee, I just don't see enough evidence that a suoernatural being created all this in seven days. It makes way more sense to me from the scientific standpoint. Do some homework Lee. Did you know our pinky fingers are getting shorter? If possible, find some pictures of family members from several generations back and if you can see their hands, look closely.

People are also bigger now than they used to be. I've seen pbotos of my family from generations back that my grandmother showed me. All the women were petite and usually around the same height. Current family photos show I have cousins that are taller than their moms. It all revolves around evolution Lee, not god.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


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Lee2216 wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 Rebecca, where did the universe and everything in it come from? I would love to hear your answer!

I would love to hear you tell me that you know there are contradictions in the bible so you christians really don't know what parts are right and what parts are wrong. Or is it that sometimes some things are ok and other times they aren't? Explain that and I will try to explain my thoughts on how this world came about. Remember, I need admission about contradictions.

Your avoiding my question because you have no answer. There aren't any contradictions. You are the one claiming there are contradictions so why don't you point them out for me.

Unlike you I did just answer you the best way I could this being via internet not face to face.

First let me give you the definition of contradiction since you don't know it: a proposition, statement or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something.

Now I shall point out where you showed these contradictions in the bible. Refer to post# 31. You said:

Not ok to call someone a fool-Matthew 5:22

Then you said:

Ok to call someone a fool- Psalm14:1, Luke 11:40, Luke 24:25, Romans 1:21-22, 1 Corinthians 15:36, Galations 3:1.

But it's fine, you've already pointed out the contradictions. You don't have to admit it's there, you've already posted them in post# 31.

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Desdenova wrote:Lee, where

Desdenova wrote:

Lee, where did god come from? 

"Your question does not make sense. Your false assumption is that God came from somewhere. It is like asking "What does Blue smell like?" Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. God is uncaused and uncreated, He is eternal, He simply exists. How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing exists. So, if there ever were a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could have never been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God."

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote: God is

Lee2216 wrote:

 

God is uncaused and uncreated, He is eternal, He simply exists. How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing exists.

Wait, you are contradicting yourself here. either something can come from nothing, ie god or the universe, or it can't. So if god simply exists, then why can't the unvierse simply exist? And again with Occam's razor, a self forming or even infinite universe is far more likely than a universe plus a self forming or infinite god.

 

So make up your mind. If god can 'just exist', so can the universe. And if the universe can 'just exist', then a god is no longer necessary to explain its existence. On the other hand, if something cannot 'just exist', then we take god out of the equation by default as he cannot simply 'just exist'.

Either way, no god is necessary, and you are still making yourself look foolish with the contradictions.

 

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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rebecca.williamson wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:

Unlike you I did just answer you the best way I could this being via internet not face to face. First let me give you the definition of contradiction since you don't know it: a proposition, statement or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something. Now I shall point out where you showed these contradictions in the bible. Refer to post# 31. You said: Not ok to call someone a fool-Matthew 5:22 Then you said: Ok to call someone a fool- Psalm14:1, Luke 11:40, Luke 24:25, Romans 1:21-22, 1 Corinthians 15:36, Galations 3:1. But it's fine, you've already pointed out the contradictions. You don't have to admit it's there, you've already posted them in post# 31.

There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another.

Not ok to call someone a fool in the context of Matthew 5:22 is a truth statement.

Ok to call someone a fool in the context of all other verses quoted is also a truth statement.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote: Desdenova

Lee2216 wrote:

Desdenova wrote:

Lee, where did god come from? 

"Your question does not make sense. Your false assumption is that God came from somewhere. It is like asking "What does Blue smell like?" Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. God is uncaused and uncreated, He is eternal, He simply exists. How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing exists. So, if there ever were a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could have never been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God."

So why are you pushing the bible down our throats? Didn't god create satan? I was told he was a fallen angel fhat was cast out of heaven. Since god created him, he will eventually go away and god will be forever. So you can go to heaven and I will just be dead.

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Desdenova wrote:Wait, you

Desdenova wrote:

Wait, you are contradicting yourself here. either something can come from nothing, ie god or the universe, or it can't. So if god simply exists, then why can't the unvierse simply exist?

The universe can't and is not eternal for one reason. It's called entropy. Entropy is the second law of thermodynamics which states that all things are moving toward chaos and non-usable energy. In other words, everything is running down.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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rebecca.williamson wrote:So

rebecca.williamson wrote:

So why are you pushing the bible down our throats? Didn't god create satan? I was told he was a fallen angel fhat was cast out of heaven. Since god created him, he will eventually go away and god will be forever. So you can go to heaven and I will just be dead.

I'm just doing what my Saviour commanded me to do. That is to proclaim the gospel to all people. You are correct! God did create Satan but he hasn't been cast out of Heaven entirely. The scriptures teach the expulsion of Satan from Heaven to be at a future date. Yes, believers will go to Heaven and have a resurrection body. But, unfortunately you won't be just dead. You too will have a resurrection body but unbelievers will be in Hell for eternity.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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I wish you all a Happy and

I wish you all a Happy and safe Thanksgiving! Talk to you all later!

 


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:

So why are you pushing the bible down our throats? Didn't god create satan? I was told he was a fallen angel fhat was cast out of heaven. Since god created him, he will eventually go away and god will be forever. So you can go to heaven and I will just be dead.

I'm just doing what my Saviour commanded me to do. That is to proclaim the gospel to all people. You are correct! God did create Satan but he hasn't been cast out of Heaven entirely. The scriptures teach the expulsion of Satan from Heaven to be at a future date. Yes, believers will go to Heaven and have a resurrection body. But, unfortunately you won't be just dead. You too will have a resurrection body but unbelievers will be in Hell for eternity.

I don't buy that but anyway, I got family stuff to do. Gotta go pick up my daughter and lots of cooking and stuff to do. Be back next week, maybe Saturday or Sunday.

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Lee2216 wrote: The universe

Lee2216 wrote:

 

The universe can't and is not eternal for one reason. It's called entropy. Entropy is the second law of thermodynamics which states that all things are moving toward chaos and non-usable energy. In other words, everything is running down.

Ahh, so god dies of entropy poisoning since he cannot have existed forever because of it. Thanks for disproving god for us, and have a wonderful thanksgiving.

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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rebecca.williamson wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:
It's all theory. As I'm sure you know, the continents drifted apart.

Now, this is a great example of a contradiction! A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another.

 

rebecca.williamson wrote:
Did you know our pinky fingers are getting shorter?If possible, find some pictures of family members from several generations back and if you can see their hands, look closely. People are also bigger now than they used to be. I've seen pbotos of my family from generations back that my grandmother showed me. All the women were petite and usually around the same height. Current family photos show I have cousins that are taller than their moms. It all revolves around evolution Lee, not god.

Our pinky fingers could be getting shorter, but their still pinky fingers. Yes people could be bigger than they used to be but their still people. This is what we call microevolution which I believe in. Here a 5 misconceptions about evolution.

1. Evolution has never been observed.

2. Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

3. There are no transitional fossils.

4. The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.

5. Evolution is only a theory, it hasn't been proved.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20