Hitler's Belt Buckle

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Hitler's Belt Buckle

Kapkao
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I'm lost...

I'm lost...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:I'm lost... So

Kapkao wrote:

I'm lost...

 

So what else is new?

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Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

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MichaelEdits.com wrote:God

MichaelEdits.com wrote:

God is with us

This has got to be some kind of density record for trolling.  Seven words and one url give us nazis, theists, and literature editors.

Religion is a virus.
Fight the infection.


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Kavis wrote:MichaelEdits.com

Kavis wrote:

MichaelEdits.com wrote:

God is with us

This has got to be some kind of density record for trolling.  Seven words and one url give us nazis, theists, and literature editors.

Simple reference to the motto "Gott mit uns" on the belt-buckles of Hitler's SS, seeming to contradict the "Hitler was an Atheist" crap we get.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Good to hear from you,

Good to hear from you, Kavis.

 

Yep, Hitler was very much a Christian.  It was, in fact, on the belt buckle of every single Nazi soldier that God was with them.  And guess what?  They lost.

 

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MichaelEdits.com wrote:Good

MichaelEdits.com wrote:

Good to hear from you, Kavis.

 

Yep, Hitler was very much a Christian.  It was, in fact, on the belt buckle of every single Nazi soldier that God was with them.  And guess what?  They lost.

 

So? Are we supposed to read deep an take some kind of allegorical lesson from that?

Religion is a virus.
Fight the infection.


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JKavis

J

Kavis wrote:

MichaelEdits.com wrote:

Good to hear from you, Kavis.

 

Yep, Hitler was very much a Christian.  It was, in fact, on the belt buckle of every single Nazi soldier that God was with them.  And guess what?  They lost.

 

So? Are we supposed to read deep an take some kind of allegorical lesson from that?

Just that I'm a smart ass

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This is not news to most of

This is not news to most of us. But it does show how short term history's memory is. Many in the west don't remember this, especially those younger than the WW2 generation.

BUT it does need to get out, so when you read an opinion or blog or post anywhere on the net when people bring up fascism and Hitler as examples of atheists, bring this up. Telling us here is preaching to the chior.

It is important however when you show this fallacy to make the argument about "obey athority" and "worship" the issue.

Fascism is not about believing or not believing, Iran is a fascist state and a theocracy. Fascism is absolute rule by one party or one person. God has the same thing in common, it is the worship of absolute authority. One is worship of a god the other is the worship of the state, but both are nothing but blind appeal to authority.

Secular nations are not "godless". Secular is a concept that protects pluralism through the checks and balances of questioning and the ability to disagree and dissent. Secular is not the promotion of fascism, it is the concept of protecting government from monopolies of power by maintaining neutrality on issues of religion and speech.

No atheist I know that has grown up in a pluralistic society would have anything in common with the Nazis or Stalin. Saying all atheists love Hitler would be like saying all Catholics molest kids. Thats like saying all men with Mustaches love Hitler.

Fascism is neither religious or godless and can manifest in any culture at any period of time. Fascism is when one power, be it a person or party OR religion, takes absolute power over all others and wipes out any dissent.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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There are no holy days

There are no holy days except Super Bowl Sunday.

 

 


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The group currently running

The group currently running Iran are giving us a pretty good example of how religion can drive toward a fascist state.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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For those of you

For those of you disappointed that this thread was not about Nazis:


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For those looking for Nazi

For those looking for Nazi talk...Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtlOBa6qa3o&feature=related


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Rich Woods wrote: looking for Nazi

    Lewis Black is very funny,but that Glen Beck charter is so F<>king crazy,it makes me wonder just how delusional can you be and still tie your shoes,shave,or go to the bathroom,just every day things.And what really has me wondering is, why do so many people listen to him.Did you see the Colbert show last night,he had a piece about Beck's visit to the Vatican,he's doing some very hard work here,a priest told him.   

Signature ? How ?


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Ken G. wrote:    Lewis

Ken G. wrote:

    Lewis Black is very funny,but that Glen Beck charter is so F<>king crazy,it makes me wonder just how delusional can you be and still tie your shoes,shave,or go to the bathroom,just every day things.And what really has me wondering is, why do so many people listen to him.Did you see the Colbert show last night,he had a piece about Beck's visit to the Vatican,he's doing some very hard work here,a priest told him.   

 

There was actually a time, before GB went to Fox, that he was able to report the conservative viewpoint responsibly... Then he had a breakdown, and then he was hired by Fox... Before That, he was a "Shock Jock"...and while on the air actually called the wife of a competing DJ who had just had a miscarriage, and asked if her husband could do anything right? (which,IMHO is actually kind of funny)...

The thing about Beck... Not from a content perspective, but simply from a "performers" perspective, is that guy is mezmerizing... I feel compelled to stop whenever I am turning the channel just to hear what inane rant this psychopath is on at the time...his "Chops" are amazing... Granted, like all of these Tv show pontiffs, he has a writing staff and a teleprompter... but as someone who has his own talk show, I recognize the guys talent... (and his manic perfidy) 


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Gott Min Uns

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Gott Mit Uns WWII

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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I own a Nazi belt buckle

I own a Nazi belt buckle like the one above given to me by my uncle..the significance of the inscription didn't sink in until a few years ago

 

 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

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MichaelEdits.com wrote:Good

MichaelEdits.com wrote:

Good to hear from you, Kavis.

 Yep, Hitler was very much a Christian.  It was, in fact, on the belt buckle of every single Nazi soldier that God was with them.  And guess what?  They lost.

 

The statement on the belt buckle is not a proclamation of Christian faith. Hitler was not a member of the body of Christ. A trivial analysis of the evidence would clear that up, but instead many lie to themselves in order to self justify their anti Christian bigotries. 

 

Isa 5:20

(20)  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

He certainly was no atheist either. 

 

 


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OrdinaryClay wrote:A trivial

OrdinaryClay wrote:
A trivial analysis of the evidence would clear that up, 

You mean like reading "mein kampf" ? ...

OrdinaryClay wrote:
but instead many lie to themselves in order to self justify their anti Christian bigotries. 

...cause I read that tedious piece of crap, and it didn't really clear up my "anti christian bigotries". Some of that stuff sounded awfully familiar.


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Anonymouse

Anonymouse wrote:

OrdinaryClay wrote:
but instead many lie to themselves in order to self justify their anti Christian bigotries. 

...cause I read that tedious piece of crap, and it didn't really clear up my "anti christian bigotries". Some of that stuff sounded awfully familiar.

Bigotries are self perpetuating. Those who invest in them are irreconcilable to reason.


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OrdinaryClay

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

OrdinaryClay wrote:
but instead many lie to themselves in order to self justify their anti Christian bigotries. 

...cause I read that tedious piece of crap, and it didn't really clear up my "anti christian bigotries". Some of that stuff sounded awfully familiar.

Bigotries are self perpetuating. Those who invest in them are irreconcilable to reason.

 

No shit, Sherlock.  Look in a mirror.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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OrdinaryClay wrote:Bigotries

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Bigotries are self perpetuating. Those who invest in them are irreconcilable to reason.

Own goal !


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OrdinaryClay

OrdinaryClay wrote:

MichaelEdits.com wrote:

Good to hear from you, Kavis.

 Yep, Hitler was very much a Christian.  It was, in fact, on the belt buckle of every single Nazi soldier that God was with them.  And guess what?  They lost.

 

The statement on the belt buckle is not a proclamation of Christian faith. Hitler was not a member of the body of Christ. A trivial analysis of the evidence would clear that up, but instead many lie to themselves in order to self justify their anti Christian bigotries. 

Isa 5:20

(20)  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 

He certainly was no atheist either. 

So a "trivial search" reveals that the phrase is a direct quote from the Bible.

You are either ignorant of your book, or a liar.

He may very well have not been "a member of the body of Christ", and no one here claimed that the inscription on the belt buckle was a "proclamation of the Christian Faith". But his ideas clearly included a strong belief in some version of God, and he was clearly inspired by some significant aspects of the Christian teachings, as he understood them, which probably was not very deeply.

You are attacking a straw-man, which is a form of lie. So what bigotry is your excuse for misrepresenting what was being claimed here?

I agree that the belt-buckle motto, by itself, says nothing about Christianity specifically. Apart from this verse:

Matthew 1:23 wrote:

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

So the phrase was a direct quote from the Bible, the supposed name of the prophesied Messiah, and you are trying to tell us it was not meant to be a proclamation of a belief in Christ??

You are either ignorant of the Bible or a dishonest fool, or perhaps a bigot.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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MichaelEdits.com wrote:Yep,

MichaelEdits.com wrote:

Yep, Hitler was very much a Christian. 

BobSpence1 wrote:

He may very well have not been "a member of the body of Christ", and no one here claimed that the inscription on the belt buckle was a "proclamation of the Christian Faith".

 

BobSpence1 wrote:

 So the phrase was a direct quote from the Bible, the supposed name of the prophesied Messiah, and you are trying to tell us it was not meant to be a proclamation of a belief in Christ??

BobSpence1 wrote:

You are attacking a straw-man, which is a form of lie. So what bigotry is your excuse for misrepresenting what was being claimed here?

Obviously not, at least to any honest observer.

 

 

BobSpence1 wrote:

... But his ideas clearly included a strong belief in some version of God, ...

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Isa 5:20
(20)  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

He certainly was no atheist either.


 

 

 

BobSpence1 wrote:

So the phrase was a direct quote from the Bible, the supposed name of the prophesied Messiah, and you are trying to tell us it was not meant to be a proclamation of a belief in Christ??

You are either ignorant of the Bible or a dishonest fool, or perhaps a bigot.


In order to understand the truth you have to shed the mentality of the drunk and look beyond the lamppost.

Mat 24:24
(24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1Jn 2:18
(18)  Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
 


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OrdinaryClay wrote:Mat

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Mat 24:24
(24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1Jn 2:18
(18)  Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
 

 

I'm quaking in my boots.  </sarcasm>

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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OrdinaryClay wrote:Obviously

OrdinaryClay wrote:

 

Obviously not, at least to any honest observer.

Oh dear, I came to another conclusion than you did. Does that make me a dishonest observer or just better informed ? Gosh, what fun.

OrdinaryClay wrote:

He certainly was no atheist either.

So what was he then ? Cause I'm guessing you figure he was lying when he said this : "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter"


OrdinaryClay wrote:
In order to understand the truth you have to shed the mentality of the drunk and look beyond the lamppost.

Mat 24:24
(24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1Jn 2:18
(18)  Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
 

"even now" ? Oh, so it's been and gone ? Okay, so much for that then.

"great signs and wonders", "even the elect" ? So much for christ then too.

Who's side are you arguing for again ?

 


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OK, OrdinaryClay, this is

OK, OrdinaryClay, this is mostly semantics.

Claiming that the BB motto was evidence of the Christian belief of the Nazis, which is all the OP was about, AFAICS, is not what I would have considered as the same as asserting that it was "a proclamation of Christian faith".

But on looking into, it, and digging up the actual Biblical reference, I can see that it could indeed be legitimate to claim that the phrase "God with Us", as a name of Christ, amounts to just that.

I don't how we could persuade to abandon the faith that blinds you to obvious truths... it seems to be a more persistent intoxicant and mind-destroyer than mere alcohol.

You certainly need to abandon the attitude of the Christian and look beyond the Bible.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Anonymouse

Anonymouse wrote:

OrdinaryClay wrote:

He certainly was no atheist either.

So what was he then ? Cause I'm guessing you figure he was lying when he said this : "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter"

 

Asking if Hitler lied is absurd. Hitler lied. He lived a life of lies and deceit. Him and his minions trafficked in lies.

 

What was he? It is clear form this verse what he was.

Joh 8:44

(44)  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

 

 


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OrdinaryClay

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

OrdinaryClay wrote:

He certainly was no atheist either.

So what was he then ? Cause I'm guessing you figure he was lying when he said this : "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter"

 

Asking if Hitler lied is absurd. Hitler lied. He lived a life of lies and deceit. Him and his minions trafficked in lies.

 

What was he? It is clear form this verse what he was.

Joh 8:44

(44)  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

 

 

Job is awesome, it helped confirm my atheism and man's potential for a lack of sanity.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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Hitler's Belt Buckle

I started a fight. Woo-hoo.

 

What Michael hath wrought, let no man put asunder.

 


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OrdinaryClay wrote:Asking if

OrdinaryClay wrote:
Asking if Hitler lied is absurd. Hitler lied. He lived a life of lies and deceit. Him and his minions trafficked in lies.

Oh really ? I think you'll find he was telling the truth about his feelings about jews and what he'd like to do to them. A murderous psychopath who tells you he's going to kill you may be many things, but he's not lying.

 

OrdinaryClay wrote:
What was he? It is clear form this verse what he was.

Joh 8:44

(44)  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

 I don't see his name in there, so no, not very clear at all, and not even close to relevant.

 


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MichaelEdits.com wrote:I

MichaelEdits.com wrote:

I started a fight. Woo-hoo.

 

What Michael hath wrought, let no man put asunder.

 

It's a hitler thread, Mike. They always get like this


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Anonymouse

Anonymouse wrote:

OrdinaryClay wrote:
Asking if Hitler lied is absurd. Hitler lied. He lived a life of lies and deceit. Him and his minions trafficked in lies.

Oh really ? I think you'll find he was telling the truth about his feelings about jews and what he'd like to do to them. A murderous psychopath who tells you he's going to kill you may be many things, but he's not lying.

 

Open your eyes. We'll find that because his actions speak his true intentions. Not his mouth.

 

Mat 7:20

(20)  Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

 


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OrdinaryClay

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

OrdinaryClay wrote:
Asking if Hitler lied is absurd. Hitler lied. He lived a life of lies and deceit. Him and his minions trafficked in lies.

Oh really ? I think you'll find he was telling the truth about his feelings about jews and what he'd like to do to them. A murderous psychopath who tells you he's going to kill you may be many things, but he's not lying.

 

Open your eyes. We'll find that because his actions speak his true intentions. Not his mouth.

 

Mat 7:20

(20)  Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

 

lol @ picking through totally different books of a bible to haphazzardly describe a single individual. Let me pull out Tolkien and pick through some passages there, I could probably come up with better and more descriptive lines.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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OrdinaryClay wrote:Open your

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Open your eyes.

It was quite hard work keeping them open while reading "mein kampf", so I resent the implication that I read it with my eyes closed.

OrdinaryClay wrote:
We'll find that because his actions speak his true intentions. Not his mouth.

Now you might want to open your eyes and read my post again. I just made the point that he spoke of his intentions before he turned them into actions.

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Mat 7:20

(20)  Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

Again, he was quite vocal about his "fruits". Anyone claiming surprise when said fruits finally appeared was being a bit dishonest, to say the least.

So the question remains, since it turned out he was speaking the truth about his opnions in his little book, what reason do we have to believe he was lying when he mentioned his religious feelings ?

 


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Unless you believe Hitler

Unless you believe Hitler was a man of integrity and never told a lie, I do not think it is too far fetched to believe that he was an atheist. 

Here are some quotes from his hidden conversations ("Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published in 1953):

http://www.answers.org/history/hitquote.html

Quote:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

 


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Godchild wrote:Unless you

Godchild wrote:

Unless you believe Hitler was a man of integrity and never told a lie, I do not think it is too far fetched to believe that he was an atheist. 

Here are some quotes from his hidden conversations ("Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published in 1953):

http://www.answers.org/history/hitquote.html

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

 

 

Those quotes are from Martin Bormann who was indeed an atheist.

 

As I've said on Hamby's blog and I think it deserves repeating

 

 

 

I wrote:

 

 

Anyway, I think all this about who is an atheist or not is irrelevant and dangerous thought train.

As I’ve said many, many times, these kinds of bickerings get in the way of the root of the problem.

After all, how can you say Hitler wouldn’t have done it if he was Christian when he was?

How can you say it wouldn’t have happened if the Nazis weren’t Christian when they had atheists such as Bormann in their ranks?

You see how this can quickly get off track to grade 4 level arguments?

Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot whatever, it doesn’t matter whether they were Theists or atheists and all this pinning the cause on the atrocious leader is getting very old, and very dangerous.

 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:Those

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Those quotes are from Martin Bormann who was indeed an atheist.

Those quotes were from Adolf Hitler. 

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Table-Talk-Adolf-Hitler/dp/1929631057/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278379931&sr=8-1

Here is a startling account of Hitler freely talking about his enemies, his friends, his ambitions, his failures, his secret dreams voicing his thoughts to his intimate associates as the sun set at the end of each day of the war. We see here a conversational Hitler letting down his guard to his trusted henchmen. Miraculously, Martin Bormann persuaded Hitler to let these talks be taken down by a team of specially picked shorthand writers. Hitler had intended, after his famous tyranny, to use these notes as source material for the books he planned to write about the glory of the Thousand-Year Reich.

You will no doubt cite something such as this to refute me:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Rest assured, I'm aware of the controversy.


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Godchild wrote: Umm, no. 

Godchild wrote:

 

Umm, no.  Those quotes were from Adolf Hitler. 

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Table-Talk-Adolf-Hitler/dp/1929631057/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278379931&sr=8-1

Here is a startling account of Hitler freely talking about his enemies, his friends, his ambitions, his failures, his secret dreams voicing his thoughts to his intimate associates as the sun set at the end of each day of the war. We see here a conversational Hitler letting down his guard to his trusted henchmen. Miraculously, Martin Bormann persuaded Hitler to let these talks be taken down by a team of specially picked shorthand writers. Hitler had intended, after his famous tyranny, to use these notes as source material for the books he planned to write about the glory of the Thousand-Year Reich.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

You will no doubt cite something such as this to refute me:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Rest assured, I'm aware of the controversy but it is all just speculation.  We know beyond a resonable doubt that those quotes came from Hitler.

 

 

 

Nope, Bormann took down what Hitler said and edited it.

 

Anyway did you even read the rest of my post?

 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:Nope,

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Nope, Bormann took down what Hitler said and edited it.

Anyway did you even read the rest of my post?

I did read the rest of your post and if you wish to ask the moderators to take down this thread, then you are free to do so.  Until then, the topic is whether or not we have sufficient reason to believe that Hitler was a Christian (at least that is what the topic is implicitly, why else did the OP mention Hitler's belt buckle?)

Here is a link to a point by point refutation to Jim Walker's site, which is probably the main source you are relying on here:

http://www.bedfordgaol.com/walkersite.html

 

 

 


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Don't forget what Kurt

Don't forget what Kurt Vonnegut said.  The difference between Bush and Hitler is that Hitler was elected.

 

http://www.michaeledits.com You can't eat grits with chopsticks


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Godchild

The usual not-a-real-christian stuff.

Btw, that guy spends an awful lot of time making the point that Hitler was nothing like Jesus. Which is a bit weird.

Anyway, I have no idea who Jim Walker is, so I only have mein kampf to go on. Like i said, since he turned out to be quite serious about his anti-semitism, what reason do I have to assume he was lying about his faith ?


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OrdinaryClay

OrdinaryClay wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

OrdinaryClay wrote:

He certainly was no atheist either.

So what was he then ? Cause I'm guessing you figure he was lying when he said this : "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter"

 

Asking if Hitler lied is absurd. Hitler lied. He lived a life of lies and deceit. Him and his minions trafficked in lies.

 

What was he? It is clear form this verse what he was.

Joh 8:44

(44)  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

 

 

Then again, you claim he lived a lie simply because he was a Roman Catholic...

It all winds down to "<x> didn't/doesn't believe the Bible the way I do. <x> must be in league with Satan!"

It's funny though - Hitler and modern evangelicals have the same view. Then and now, the desire to see the Jews dead burns brightly. Hitler killed them in the name of racial purity - the evangelical want them dead to speed the second coming of Christ. I wonder if they know that the Jesus they're looking for is Jewish...no wait, the Jesus Christ they worship would have offended Jesus of Nazareth.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Anonymouse wrote:Godchild

Anonymouse wrote:

The usual not-a-real-christian stuff.

Btw, that guy spends an awful lot of time making the point that Hitler was nothing like Jesus. Which is a bit weird.

Anyway, I have no idea who Jim Walker is, so I only have mein kampf to go on. Like i said, since he turned out to be quite serious about his anti-semitism, what reason do I have to assume he was lying about his faith ?

If you were truly going on Mein Kampf, then you would have great reason to assume that he is lying.  From Volume 1, Chapters 6 & 12:

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result"

Furthermore, the website I've cited is not just "not-a-real-christian stuff".  It discusses the integrity of Jim Walker, relevant historical facts about Hitler and Nazi Germany, the fallacies in reasoning used by Christian Hitler advocates, sufficient reasons to believe that the quotes from Hitler's table talks were legitimate, etc. 


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Godchild wrote:If you were

Godchild wrote:

If you were truly going on Mein Kampf, then you would have great reason to assume that he is lying.  From Volume 1, Chapters 6 & 12:

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result"

He approves of propaganda. Another thing he didn't turn out to be lying about. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Godchild wrote:
Furthermore, the website I've cited is not just "not-a-real-christian stuff".  It discusses the integrity of Jim Walker, relevant historical facts about Hitler and Nazi Germany, the fallacies in reasoning used by Christian Hitler advocates, sufficient reasons to believe that the quotes from Hitler's table talks were legitimate, etc. 

It seems to have skipped the fact nowhere in these "table talks" does he deny his faith in christ.

As for "sufficient reasons" that the quotes were not edited, no.

As for "etc", if the person who owns that site ever gets over his obsession with the mysterious "mister Walker", whoever that is, he might want to read up on the subject he's so interested in. Try this for starters : "The German Churches Under Hitler"

 


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Godchild wrote:Anonymouse

Godchild wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

The usual not-a-real-christian stuff.

Btw, that guy spends an awful lot of time making the point that Hitler was nothing like Jesus. Which is a bit weird.

Anyway, I have no idea who Jim Walker is, so I only have mein kampf to go on. Like i said, since he turned out to be quite serious about his anti-semitism, what reason do I have to assume he was lying about his faith ?

If you were truly going on Mein Kampf, then you would have great reason to assume that he is lying.  From Volume 1, Chapters 6 & 12:

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result"

Furthermore, the website I've cited is not just "not-a-real-christian stuff".  It discusses the integrity of Jim Walker, relevant historical facts about Hitler and Nazi Germany, the fallacies in reasoning used by Christian Hitler advocates, sufficient reasons to believe that the quotes from Hitler's table talks were legitimate, etc. 

Hey Godchild,

If you Christians want to repudiate Hitler, why do you folk so readily embrace his practices?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Nobody knows what Hitler

Nobody knows what Hitler really thought. I'm sure there are plenty of things about Hitler that would surprise us all, for example I just found this video:  

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Anonymouse wrote:He approves

Anonymouse wrote:

He approves of propaganda. Another thing he didn't turn out to be lying about. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

I do not quite get where you are going with this.  He consistently lied and this can be proven using public record.  This was his letter to a French politician, written in 1930:

"I think I can assure you that there is no one in Germany who will not with all his heart approve any honest attempt at an improvement of relations between Germany and France. My own feelings force me to take the same attitude... The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers... And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding... The young Germany, that is led by me and that finds its expression in the National Socialist Movement, has only the most heartfelt desire for an understanding with other European nations."

Hitler also said in one of his speeches (1/30/39):

"Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration: 1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..."

Obviously, he turned out to be lying in both cases.  You are free to defend the integrity of Hitler all you want, but you really have no legs to stand on here.  He is a proven liar and it is clear from his private conversations, blatant misunderstanding of Christian doctrine, and previous actions that he was not a Christian.

Quote:
It seems to have skipped the fact nowhere in these "table talks" does he deny his faith in christ.

He says that "Christianity should die a natural death".  I'm not exactly sure how that is consistent with faith in Christ. 

He also says: "The heaviest blow to humanity was the coming of Christianity", "Christianity is rebellion against natural law", "Christianity is one of the two greatest scourges", "Christianity is an invention of sick brains." 

How is any of that consistent with faith in Christ?  Does he have to say "I do not believe in Jesus" in order for you to reject that he was a Christian? 

Quote:
As for "sufficient reasons" that the quotes were not edited, no.

As for "etc", if the person who owns that site ever gets over his obsession with the mysterious "mister Walker", whoever that is, he might want to read up on the subject he's so interested in. Try this for starters : "The German Churches Under Hitler"

What is that book about?  I've located it on Amazon and B&N but nobody has reviewed it and there is not even a synopsis on it. 


http://www.amazon.com/German-Churches-Under-Hitler-Background/dp/0814316034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278467007&sr=8-1

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-German-Churches-under-Hitler/Ernst-Christian-Helmreich/e/9780814316030/?itm=9&USRI=German+churches+Under+Hitler

 


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Anonymouse
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Godchild wrote:I do not

Godchild wrote:
I do not quite get where you are going with this.

It's pretty simple. Simply because he writes about propaganda and used it, does not mean that he was lying about his faith.

Godchild wrote:
He consistently lied and this can be proven using public record.

And he consistenly told the truth as well. People can do both, you know.

Btw, do you really want to suggest that anyone who gets caught in a lie immediately stops being a christian ? You might want to think about that.


Godchild wrote:
Obviously, he turned out to be lying in both cases.  You are free to defend the integrity of Hitler all you want, but you really have no legs to stand on here.  He is a proven liar and it is clear from his private conversations, blatant misunderstanding of Christian doctrine, and previous actions that he was not a Christian.

I'm afraid I have several more legs to stand on than you do, since we were talking about his faith. You may not agree with the things he believed, but among christians, that's not really very unusual, is it ? For instance, he didn't believe that christ was a jew. I'm guessing you disagree. How that proves that he didn't have faith, I have no idea.

Godchild wrote:
He says that "Christianity should die a natural death".  I'm not exactly sure how that is consistent with faith in Christ. 

He also says: "The heaviest blow to humanity was the coming of Christianity", "Christianity is rebellion against natural law", "Christianity is one of the two greatest scourges", "Christianity is an invention of sick brains." 

How is any of that consistent with faith in Christ?  Does he have to say "I do not believe in Jesus" in order for you to reject that he was a Christian?

I'll let Hitler himself answer that one :

"Herein lies the essential element of our mission: we must bring back to the German Volk the recognition of those teachings! For what did the falsification of the original concept of Christian love, of the community of fate before God and of socialism lead to? By their fruits ye shall know them! The suppression of freedom of opinion, the persecution of the true Christians, the vile mass murders of the Inquisition and the burning of witches, the armed campaigns against the people of free and true Christian faith, the destruction of towns and villages, the hauling away of their cattle and their goods, the destruction of their flourishing economies, and the condemnation of their leaders before tribunals, which, in their unrelenting hypocrisy, can only be described as balaphemous. That is the true face of those sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man, motivated by selfishness, personal greed for recognition and gain, and the ambition to maintain their high-handed willfulness against Christ's deep understanding of the necessity of a socialist community of men and nations. We must turn all the sentiments of the Volk, all its thinking, acting, even its beliefs, away from the anti-Christian, smug individualism of the past, from the egotism and stupid Phariseeism of personal arrogance, and we must educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each one of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers! This youth will, wit loathing and contempt, abandon those hypocrites who have Christ on their lips but the devil in their hearts, who give alms in order to remain undisturbed as they themselves throw their money around, who invoke the Fatherland as they fill their own purses by the toil of others,"

In other words, he thinks christians aren't being true to christ. I think you'll find that opinion is quite compatible with faith in christ, and again, not very unusual among christians.

Godchild wrote:
What is that book about?  I've located it on Amazon and B&N but nobody has reviewed it and there is not even a synopsis on it. 

It's in the title. Just read it and you'll find out.