NDE and consciousness

termina
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NDE and consciousness

 

hello

NDE often occur when brain activity gets blank but does it really prove for sure that consciousness thus doesn't depend on brain?


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termina wrote:helloNDE often

termina wrote:

hello

NDE often occur when brain activity gets blank but does it really prove for sure that consciousness thus doesn't depend on brain?

 

I'm pretty sure NDEs do not happen when the brain 'goes blank'.  When the brain goes blank, people are dead and they never come back (Without Jewish necromancy involved anyway).  Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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There was an old poster by

There was an old poster by the name of Paisley that used to like to make threads about this.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17111

"Dr. Jamer Whinnery did centrifuge tests on pilots for the Air Force and they kept reporting out of body experiences. It turns out that you lose all sense of where you are when your brain is starved of oxygen. Also the pilots reported seeing bright lights, feeling at peace, and feeling that they are floating after passing out on the centrifuge. It was a classic case of NDEs, but these pilots weren't even dying, they were just spun around until enough blood was drawn out of their heads that they passed out. So "near death experiences" is a very poorly worded phrase. It is actually more of an "oxygen deprivation in the brain experience." Out of body experiences are the product of a brain that can not function properly due to oxygen deprivation. Unless centrifuges have a mystical property to them that frees the soul from the body, I think that out of body experiences and NDEs have a rather boring and non-mystical explanation."

NDE=oxygen deprivation; plain and simple. In some ways reality is a bit disappointing. This mystical and amazing experience of your soul leaving your body is actually just your brain going haywire from oxygen deprivation.

Here is an excerpt from an article Major General James Whinnery wrote about his research in gravity induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC). See if you can find the similarities to NDEs:

"It is possible to classify the G-LOC episodes. The G-LOC experience includes specific visual symptoms (tunnel vision through blackout), convulsive activity, memory alterations, dreamlets, and other psychological symptoms. The major, overall G-LOC experience characteristics that have commonality with NDEs are shown below.

  Tunnel vision / bright light 
  Floating 
  Automatic movement 
  Autoscopy 
  Out-of-body experience 
  Not wanting to be disturbed 
  Paralysis 
  Vivid dreamlets / beautiful places
        a.  Euphoria
        b.  Dissociation
  Pleasurable
  Psychologic state alteration
  Friends / family inclusion
  Prior memories / thoughts inclusion
  Very memorable (when remembered)
  Confabulation
  Strong urge to understand"

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Clarification

If I read you correctly, I think you're asking how to reconcile the reports of some people who have experienced NDE's that seem to indicate sensation, visions, and other experiences that, if they had occurred in a linear sense of time, must have occurred when the brain was inactive.  Thus, the reports of these people would seem to indicate that a 2 hour NDE proves consciousness is not tied to brain activity.

 

Even our limited understanding of neuroscience has pretty firmly established that what you experience subconsciously, like dreams, can seem much longer when you remember the experience.  A few seconds of brain activity can translate into a complex, rich experience when your brain puts it together as a memory.

 

Thus, the assumption that the time experienced in a NDE is linearly related to actual time is a bad assumption and is not evidence that consciousness is not tied to brain activity.


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termina wrote:NDE often

termina wrote:
NDE often occur when brain activity gets blank but does it really prove for sure that consciousness thus doesn't depend on brain?

What the **** does "brain activity gets blank" mean?

People who are unconscious still have brain activity. People experiencing NDEs still have brain activity. When you don't have brain activity, you're dead.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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True, but there are many

True, but there are many proven instances where people have been resuscitated after being clinically dead, with no brain activity.  I think that's Termina is referring to.


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RecklessHumor wrote:True,

RecklessHumor wrote:
True, but there are many proven instances where people have been resuscitated after being clinically dead, with no brain activity.  I think that's Termina is referring to.

No. There are exactly zero recorded instances where people have been resuscitated after having no brain activity.

Clinically dead is just when you're in cardiac arrest, when you stop breathing and your blood stops circulating because your heart is no longer pumping. You can still have brain activity when you're clinically dead as long as you're not brain dead. You cannot be resuscitated after brain death because there is no "you" after your brain dies. You, as in your consciousness, memories, etc., cease to exist after brain death.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:What the

butterbattle wrote:

What the **** does "brain activity gets blank" mean?

People who are unconscious still have brain activity. People experiencing NDEs still have brain activity. When you don't have brain activity, you're dead.

 

Not True... I have been living this way for years...


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Rich Woods

Rich Woods wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

What the **** does "brain activity gets blank" mean?

People who are unconscious still have brain activity. People experiencing NDEs still have brain activity. When you don't have brain activity, you're dead.

 

Not True... I have been lying this way for years...

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NDEs are nothing but

NDEs are nothing but neurons, much like papers in a filing cabinet getting dumped out like an office being robbed by looters. They get mixed in with auditory and sensory input . It fades away either to death, our out like a lucid dream when the person wakes up. It is like a dimmer switch on a light. It can come close to off, and then turn back to lucid reality, or it can fade and die permanently to "off".

NDEs are nothing more than an ignorant claim of people lacking understanding of how the human brain functions during times of stress in the process of death.

Does anyone here really think you'd have that same "tunnel"  of light and memories if your head got blown off by shotgun?

YES, people have these "experiences". But they are not real, they are merely brain activity mixing in with sensory input. It can feel real and scary, but is nothing more than "in your head".

If anyone believes that thoughts can happen outside the brain, they might as well believe that Harry Potter can fly around with just a broom. It is just another bullshit claim amongst many bullshit claims humans make because they don't know any better.

People make up stupid claims because reality isn't glamorous.

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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

RecklessHumor wrote:
True, but there are many proven instances where people have been resuscitated after being clinically dead, with no brain activity.  I think that's Termina is referring to.

No. There are exactly zero recorded instances where people have been resuscitated after having no brain activity.

Clinically dead is just when you're in cardiac arrest, when you stop breathing and your blood stops circulating because your heart is no longer pumping. You can still have brain activity when you're clinically dead as long as you're not brain dead. You cannot be resuscitated after brain death because there is no "you" after your brain dies. You, as in your consciousness, memories, etc., cease to exist after brain death. 

 

I think we're quibbling over semantics.  Brain death is not the same as lack of brain activity.  You're right, clinical death occurs when the heart stops beating and the blood stops circulating, but measurable brain activity also stops after 30-40 seconds after clinical death.  People HAVE been resuscitated after the loss of measurable brain activity.  This is not the same as brain death, which begins to occur at about 3 minutes after clinical death.


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Brian37 wrote:NDEs are

Brian37 wrote:

NDEs are nothing but neurons, much like papers in a filing cabinet getting dumped out like an office being robbed by looters.

Brian, that is a poetic description. Very well done, Sir.

I shall steal it, and let people assume it is my own.

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Well, not to belabor the

Well, not to belabor the whole Princess Bride thing but there is such a thing as mostly dead. If you are mostly dead, then you are also slightly alive. When your friends start going through your pockets, then you are gone and not coming back. Before then, you are still around enough that you can come back and bring strange dreams with you. That is all that an NDE is.

 

Why does anybody think they are called “near death” experiences? If someone was really dead, then it would be called a death experience. Of course, then the person would not be telling us about what happened. Because they would be dead.

 

And really, I would like to see the case literature on people with “no detectable brain activity” for myself. I really suspect that what is going on is that death is a process that happens over a period of time.

 

You could ask any doctor or EMS first responder. There is something called shock which is basically the first thing that happens to many people who start the process of dying. With prompt care, people can be brought back from the edge of death. Hardly surprising that. If people have been brought back after an EEG went flatline, it only means that the EEG can flatline before they actually fall off the cliff of real death. In which case, they had been hanging by a thread but there was enough still going on that they could be pulled back, so to speak.

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Death can only really be

Death can only really be defined retrospectively - it was death if they didn't revive, and general irreversible cellular breakdown has set in in the brain, ie they cannot revive. Somewhere before that, some point of 'no return' will have passed, but that cannot be unambiguously detected at the time.

There is likely to be a period where parts of the brain 'die', which means that even if metabolism can be fired up again, there will be brain damage.

Some accounts suggest that an apparently 'stopped' brain can be 'kick-started' a bit like heart massage, if it hasn't been too long, and it can be flooded with nutrients and oxygenated blood.

There also needs to an allowance for the sensitivity of the instruments measuring brain activity.

As for the experience of the tunnel of light and so on, that depends on the individual and some other aspects of the particular dying process. As has already been pointed out, that seems to be the result of loss of blood to the brain, maybe it has to be in a particular sequence of which parts lose blood first.

I recently listened to a moving interview with a US soldier injured in Afghanistan(?) who experienced the full sequence of progressive loss of feeling in his lower limbs, moving up toward his head, thru difficulty in breathing, then darkness. No tunnel of light. He came 'back', thanks to a doctor who spent an extra amount of effort over the normal.

I was also pleasantly surprised that there were no religious references, at least that I noticed. He described a final calm acceptance of what seemed to be the inevitable.

If I can't go out suddenly and unexpectedly, this would be the next 'best' way.

It was on a BBC podcast, sorry, I can't recall which one atm.

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Good point about the

Good point about the possible sequence of what parts lose blood first Bob.

 

I have two friends who have had NDE experiences and neither of them report the “standard” sequence of events. Sadly, one of them did find religion but since the other one had a violent argument with god, I guess that it evens out on some level ;--)

 

Really, though, if there even can be said to be a standard, it would seem reasonable to me that it is just the most common set of events. That and the nutters with an agenda probably have a huge selection bias going on where they ignore the events that don't support the agenda.

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nigelTheBold wrote:Brian37

nigelTheBold wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

NDEs are nothing but neurons, much like papers in a filing cabinet getting dumped out like an office being robbed by looters.

Brian, that is a poetic description. Very well done, Sir.

I shall steal it, and let people assume it is my own.

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RecklessHumor wrote:I think

RecklessHumor wrote:
I think we're quibbling over semantics.  Brain death is not the same as lack of brain activity.  You're right, clinical death occurs when the heart stops beating and the blood stops circulating, but measurable brain activity also stops after 30-40 seconds after clinical death.  People HAVE been resuscitated after the loss of measurable brain activity.  This is not the same as brain death, which begins to occur at about 3 minutes after clinical death.

Are you saying that there is still brain activity, but that it is simply beyond our current technology to measure? We can't measure it? I'm not sure I believe that.

If it's just semantics, then okay.

Either way, the argument implied by the OP was that NDEs prove dualism because they occur after the person is "dead." My point is that this implies that NDEs occur after brain death, which is false. NDEs occur after clinical death and before brain death. That's what you would expect if consciousness was a natural phenomenon.

 

 

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

RecklessHumor wrote:
I think we're quibbling over semantics.  Brain death is not the same as lack of brain activity.  You're right, clinical death occurs when the heart stops beating and the blood stops circulating, but measurable brain activity also stops after 30-40 seconds after clinical death.  People HAVE been resuscitated after the loss of measurable brain activity.  This is not the same as brain death, which begins to occur at about 3 minutes after clinical death.

Are you saying that there is still brain activity, but that it is simply beyond our current technology to measure? We can't measure it? I'm not sure I believe that.

If it's just semantics, then okay.

Either way, the argument implied by the OP was that NDEs prove dualism because they occur after the person is "dead." My point is that this implies that NDEs occur after brain death, which is false. NDEs occur after clinical death and before brain death. That's what you would expect if consciousness was a natural phenomenon.

 

 

 

 

\

Most laymen do not understand that there IS a difference between clinical death, which merely means that vital signs cannot be detected and PERMANENT DEATH, which is beyond the window between clinical death and permanent death where a person can still have some twitch available that can spark them back.

The "Tunnel" is as I said before, nothing but your neurons firing off an mixing with your conscious and subconscious senses. Once the body is beyond all possible "twitches", beyond the window, that is it. The dimmer switch goes "off" and that is it.

The same thing would not happen if you got your head blown off with a shotgun. The structure that is the brain would no longer be in tact to experience this. Just like one would not be able to cross a collapsed bridge.

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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

RecklessHumor wrote:
I think we're quibbling over semantics.  Brain death is not the same as lack of brain activity.  You're right, clinical death occurs when the heart stops beating and the blood stops circulating, but measurable brain activity also stops after 30-40 seconds after clinical death.  People HAVE been resuscitated after the loss of measurable brain activity.  This is not the same as brain death, which begins to occur at about 3 minutes after clinical death.

Are you saying that there is still brain activity, but that it is simply beyond our current technology to measure? We can't measure it? I'm not sure I believe that.

If it's just semantics, then okay.

Either way, the argument implied by the OP was that NDEs prove dualism because they occur after the person is "dead." My point is that this implies that NDEs occur after brain death, which is false. NDEs occur after clinical death and before brain death. That's what you would expect if consciousness was a natural phenomenon.

 

 

Well said.  We have consensus.


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RecklessHumor wrote:Well

RecklessHumor wrote:

Well said.  We have consensus.

No we don't! I'm not "consensuing"  A post about NDE, just what I have been looking for...

Jormungander wrote:

NDE=oxygen deprivation; plain and simple. In some ways reality is a bit disappointing. This mystical and amazing experience of your soul leaving your body is actually just your brain going haywire from oxygen deprivation.

How inconvenient this must be for you... the brain has an automatic response when dying that goes against everything you believe in... It could have been an heroin or cocaine like effect, or some endorphines that made you feel good on your way to oblivion... but no... it's the same mystical experience which by some freaky accident it turns on similar images which are culturally transverse. 

What triggers an NDE? is it anoxia? if it is anoxia ALL cardiac arrests should trigger one! That's far from being true.

What I like the most about NDE and atheist is their self denial.

Pam Reynolds NDE has somethings unexplainable. Like how could she have seen a specific surgical device while blind folded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds'_NDE

Blind people NDEs are also a problem

"No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain." Greyson

 

______________________________________________________________
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"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

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Joly, you revived an old

Joly, you revived an old thread.

Jormungander wrote:
NDE=oxygen deprivation; plain and simple. In some ways reality is a bit disappointing. This mystical and amazing experience of your soul leaving your body is actually just your brain going haywire from oxygen deprivation.

Teralek wrote:
the brain has an automatic response when dying that goes against everything you believe in...

No. Nowhere does he imply that is goes against what he believes in. It confirms what he believes "plain and simple."

Teralek wrote:
It could have been an heroin or cocaine like effect, or some endorphines that made you feel good on your way to oblivion...

I could have been. Drug induced experiences are sometimes very similar to NDEs.

Teralek wrote:
but no... it's the same mystical experience which by some freaky accident it turns on similar images which are culturally transverse.

Yes, which suggests that it could be due to the brain.

Teralek wrote:
if it is anoxia ALL cardiac arrests should trigger one!

Why? Evidence? Source?

Teralek wrote:
That's far from being true.

Okay. How do you know this?

Teralek wrote:
Blind people NDEs are also a problem

Why? You aren't using your eyes to see anything during an NDE.

Teralek wrote:
"No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE.

Okay, point? They're models. Once we understand the brain well enough, we can construct a model.

Teralek wrote:
The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function.

No. Lucid awareness of how your brain is going crazy while your brain is going crazy is not paradoxical. Sorry.

Teralek wrote:
A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain." Greyson

A naked assertion, but it's good rhetoric. I know articles with much richer vocabularies anyways. See:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/problems_notion_nonmaterial_aspect_conscious_process

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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You really like a good

You really like a good debate don't you? 

there is only one drug capable of similar results, not equal - Ketamine

I already told you the links of "sources" and "evidences"... here they are again: 

http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm

that's where the quote: "With a purely physiological explanation such as cerebral anoxia for the experience, most patients who have been clinically dead should report one." is

BTW this is a peer reviewed article......

Blind people NDEs are also a problem because they've seen things during NDEs they shouldn't have... they are blind.

"No. Lucid awareness of how your brain is going crazy while your brain is going crazy is not paradoxical. Sorry." - No man you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about... These people claim they are more aware than even when they are fully awake. If the brain is shutting down conscience should be diffuse, that is what makes sense.

You are seeing a lot of naked assertions... however it's you that undress them... by not reading them on their full context... in this case the previous sentence. It's 2 sentences that must go together to make sense.

 

 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Blindness is irrelevant in

Blindness is irrelevant in NDE's, either way.

People 'seeing' things during NDE's is evidence that the visions are generated inside the brain, as we would expect.

Even if NDE's were real, blindness is not relevant, because if you are really 'out of your body', you would not be seeing with your eyes.

So what exactly are you trying to say by mentioning blind people here?

 

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I heard a moving account by

I heard a moving account by a soldier wounded recently in the Middle East, described the progressive loss of feeling in his body, then the slow ebbing of consciousness, how he recalled nothing but an encroaching darkness.

They managed to get him to a doctor in time to revive him.

It does seem that only some people go through what are thought to be the 'classic' NDE's.

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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BobSpence1 wrote:It does

BobSpence1 wrote:

It does seem that only some people go through what are thought to be the 'classic' NDE's.

 

Yup that's true! Scientific studies assert that. However that doesn't invalidate the reality of the experience. More studies are needed. There are no common circumstances with people who only see darkness and people who experience an NDE. What REALLY triggers it remains a mystery.

 

 

BobSpence1 wrote:
Blindness is irrelevant in NDE's, either way.

People 'seeing' things during NDE's is evidence that the visions are generated inside the brain, as we would expect.

Even if NDE's were real, blindness is not relevant, because if you are really 'out of your body', you would not be seeing with your eyes.

So what exactly are you trying to say by mentioning blind people here?
 
 

I'm trying to say that if these people could describe objects in a different way than a normal person after the NDE, or if they state facts occurred during their NDE which only a person with vision could. From people interviews it seems that way. However I admit that there was no case in a controlled scenario where this occurred. The best case for NDE is Pam Reynolds. Lately there are exciting New Studies though... let's wait for the results. Blind people (from birth) don't have images on their brains as normal people do, it's just random distorted forms... of course you wouldn't be seeing with "eyes".

Dr. Sam Parnia at Southampton University is conduction a big study about NDE... let's wait his results.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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BobSpence1 wrote:It does

BobSpence1 wrote:

It does seem that only some people go through what are thought to be the 'classic' NDE's.

 

According to the Air Force's research, it is really hit and miss. Some people can be forced to pass out dozens of times and claim to never have an 'NDE' experience. Others describe vivid hallucinations in detail including visitations by friends and family members and leaving their body.

But the important point remains, Teralek: either centrifuges are mystical machines that can suck your soul out of your body, or NDEs are caused by the brain not having enough blood.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Hey! Do you know where I can

Hey! Do you know where I can find THIS study? Can't find it... I'm really interested on reading it. Even with my allergic mistrust of the military... If someone has a link it would be great. 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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mellestad wrote:I'm pretty

mellestad wrote:

I'm pretty sure NDEs do not happen when the brain 'goes blank'.  When the brain goes blank, people are dead and they never come back (Without Jewish necromancy involved anyway).  Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?

This is not true. And this has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in NDEs. Clinical death is real death. And if one is resuscitated from cardiac arrest, then one is resuscitated from death.

"Dr. Sam Parnia: Near Death Experiences during Cardiac Arrest"

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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butterbattle wrote:Either

butterbattle wrote:

Either way, the argument implied by the OP was that NDEs prove dualism because they occur after the person is "dead." My point is that this implies that NDEs occur after brain death, which is false. NDEs occur after clinical death and before brain death. That's what you would expect if consciousness was a natural phenomenon. 

This is  not true. The brain stops within seconds after cardiac arrest. Educate yourself and get your facts straight.

"Dr. Sam Parnia: Near Death Experiences during Cardiac Arrest"

 

 

 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Brian37 wrote:Most laymen do

Brian37 wrote:

Most laymen do not understand that there IS a difference between clinical death, which merely means that vital signs cannot be detected and PERMANENT DEATH, which is beyond the window between clinical death and permanent death where a person can still have some twitch available that can spark them back.

Clinical death is reaql death. If you're brought back from clinical death, then you're brought back from death. If you're not brought back, then you're permanently dead.

Brian37 wrote:

The "Tunnel" is as I said before, nothing but your neurons firing off an mixing with your conscious and subconscious senses. Once the body is beyond all possible "twitches", beyond the window, that is it. The dimmer switch goes "off" and that is it.

You have to provide a plausible explanation why a "brain shutting down" should experience all of the following....

Quote:

The traits of a classical NDE are as follows:

  • The notice of a very unpleasant sound or noise. [9]
  • A sense/awareness of being dead.[18][20]
  • A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A feeling of being removed from the world.[18][20][21]
  • An out-of-body experience. A perception of one's body from an outside position. Sometimes observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.[18][20][21][22]
  • A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.[18][20][22].
  • A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.[20][21]
  • An intense feeling of unconditional love.[21]
  • Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or other spiritual beings. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones.[18][21][22]
  • Being given a life review.[18][20][21]
  • Being presented with knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.[21]
  • A decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.[18][21][22]
  • Approaching a border.[20]
  • There also seems to be a link between the cultural and spiritual beliefs where you live. These seem to dictate what is experienced in the NDE(Miner-Holder, Janice. Handbook of Near-Death Experiences. Library of Congress Cataloging in Publishing Data. 2009.).

 

(source: Wikipedia: Near Death Experience)

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:This is  not

Paisley wrote:
This is  not true. The brain stops within seconds after cardiac arrest. Educate yourself and get your facts straight.

"Dr. Sam Parnia: Near Death Experiences during Cardiac Arrest"

Wow, a link to a video that's nearly an hour long. Should I be surprised?

Could you direct me to the portion of the video where he presents evidence that the brain "stops" after cardiac arrest?

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Jormungander

Jormungander wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

It does seem that only some people go through what are thought to be the 'classic' NDE's.

 

According to the Air Force's research, it is really hit and miss. Some people can be forced to pass out dozens of times and claim to never have an 'NDE' experience. Others describe vivid hallucinations in detail including visitations by friends and family members and leaving their body.

But the important point remains, Teralek: either centrifuges are mystical machines that can suck your soul out of your body, or NDEs are caused by the brain not having enough blood.

YEah. Either one or the other. However you should have said it like this: "Either centrifuges mimic the conditions of NDE experiences to a certain extent and are capable of releasing the mind to an OBE, or the NDE experience is explained by purely physiological and psychological phenomenons."

I haven't seen many interviews to the soldiers about their dreams, unfortunately. But it seems to me NDE experience is stronger. People who experience it are adamant in saying it was NOT a dream, everyone says that! 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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butterbattle wrote:Wow, a

butterbattle wrote:

Wow, a link to a video that's nearly an hour long. Should I be surprised?

Could you direct me to the portion of the video where he presents evidence that the brain "stops" after cardiac arrest? 

Do your homework.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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I found it! "Studies have

I found it! "Studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds."

Here it is: http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=84

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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I don't see the point in

I don't see the point in bringing up that brain activity stops 10 seconds after cardiac arrest.  It is impossible to objectively quantify a length of time for an NDE, so comparison is useless.  You can't argue an NDE happening after cardiac arrest and suspended brain activity, because you can't measure it.  All you have is what the person tells you if they are resuscitated.


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Paisley wrote:Do your

Paisley wrote:
Do your homework.

Ooohh, substituting a pointless condescending remark for an actual substantive response. Should I have expected that too?

Teralek wrote:
I found it! "Studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds."

Here it is: http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=84

Ah, thanks Teralek. I don't completely trust the site, but I'll buy that.

This isn't the same as brain death though. From the same source: "Brain oxygen levels are then depleted within approximately 2 minutes and if the blood flow is not restarted to the brain, the cells start to undergo changes which will ultimately lead to cell damage and then cell death."

And:

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4481

"Brain death and permanent death start to occur in just 4 to 6 minutes after someone experiences cardiac arrest."

"Few attempts at resuscitation succeed after 10 minutes."

Okay, so no measurable brain function is not the same as brain death. The former occurs in only 10 seconds, whereas the latter requires at least several minutes. Do NDEs only occur until loss of brain function then?

Edit: So, Paisley was right? Yeah, you were right, Paisley, I think. But, now that you've actually corrected me something, you'll be even more annoyingly condescending now than before, right?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Okay, so

butterbattle wrote:
Okay, so no measurable brain function is not the same as brain death. The former occurs in only 10 seconds, whereas the latter requires at least several minutes. Do NDEs only occur until loss of brain function then?

Also, there's the time during resusitation that blood is flowing to an oxygen-deprived brain. I imagine there is a time before consciousness when the brain is active, but undergoing stress as it re-oxygenates, and clears out accumulated toxins, and begins firing on all cylinders again.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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butterbattle wrote:Okay, so

butterbattle wrote:

Okay, so no measurable brain function is not the same as brain death. The former occurs in only 10 seconds, whereas the latter requires at least several minutes. Do NDEs only occur until loss of brain function then?

That's a good question... I think the cessation of electrical activity means it is impossible to have VIVID dreams. For me Pam Reynolds case is still the most unexplainable. I think NDEs occur after the 10sec period, but I don't have any hard evidence on this.


 

butterbattle wrote:
Edit: So, Paisley was right? Yeah, you were right, Paisley, I think. But, now that you've actually corrected me something, you'll be even more annoyingly condescending now than before, right?

Hey butterbattle I have something for you that you'll love. I know I'm giving you a stick to beat me but I'm an honest fair person. Here goes:

http://news.discovery.com/human/near-death-brain.html

 

 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Teralek

Teralek wrote:

Hey butterbattle I have something for you that you'll love. I know I'm giving you a stick to beat me but I'm an honest fair person. Here goes:

http://news.discovery.com/human/near-death-brain.html

That's interesting. Of course, skeptics will interpret it differently than believers.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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butterbattle wrote:Wow, a

butterbattle wrote:

Wow, a link to a video that's nearly an hour long. Should I be surprised?

Could you direct me to the portion of the video where he presents evidence that the brain "stops" after cardiac arrest?

Around 19:30 in the video, he simply asserts that this is true.  I'm inclined to believe him, as he seems to just be establishing that clinical death rapidly leads to brain death.  He's also careful to draw a distinction between this event and NDEs.

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Fight the infection.


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I didn't know this movie!

I didn't know this movie! Thanj you Paisley. I find Dr Parmia a very honest man. Him and Van Lommel are authorities in this area. Parmia is conduction a big research in england... can't wait his results. 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Teralek wrote:I didn't know

Teralek wrote:

I didn't know this movie! Thanj you Paisley. I find Dr Parmia a very honest man. Him and Van Lommel are authorities in this area. Parmia is conduction a big research in england... can't wait his results. 

You're welcome.

Dr. Parnia seems to be a fair player (I don't think he is engaging in a debunking exercise as the host of "Skeptico" seems to be suggesting). But I do have some concerns with the design of this experiment.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:Teralek

Paisley wrote:

Teralek wrote:

I didn't know this movie! Thanj you Paisley. I find Dr Parmia a very honest man. Him and Van Lommel are authorities in this area. Parmia is conduction a big research in england... can't wait his results. 

You're welcome.

Dr. Parnia seems to be a fair player (I don't think he is engaging in a debunking exercise as the host of "Skeptico" seems to be suggesting). But I do have some concerns with the design of this experiment.

Paisley, here's more on Parmia at Imperial College London, September 10, 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-Xf54dEhgA

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies