Creation myths

Whatthedeuce
atheist
Whatthedeuce's picture
Posts: 200
Joined: 2008-07-19
User is offlineOffline
Creation myths

In a discussion I recently had with a Christian, the reason for why Genesis is read allegorically is because during the time period, people were not concerned with facts. All similar religious stories  and creation myths of the time and region were meant in a figurative sense. Now, my knowledge of this topic is limited but I know other people on this site have studied this topic more in depth. I'm wondering, is this position historically accurate?


 

 

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


Whatthedeuce
atheist
Whatthedeuce's picture
Posts: 200
Joined: 2008-07-19
User is offlineOffline
sorry, I meant to say

sorry, I meant to say Genesis 1-11, not all of Genesis.


 


B166ER
atheist
B166ER's picture
Posts: 557
Joined: 2010-03-01
User is offlineOffline
Earth to christian!

Whatthedeuce wrote:
In a discussion I recently had with a Christian, the reason for why Genesis is read allegorically is because during the time period, people were not concerned with facts. All similar religious stories  and creation myths of the time and region were meant in a figurative sense.

I would have to say to that Christian that (s)he is dumb and doesn't know what they are talking about. People wanted FACTS when it came to what foods were safe or not, not cute allegorical stories. People wanted FACTS about how fast and mean the large, predatory animals around were, not cutesy stories about how nice it was when it ate your face off.

I think that Christian was just projecting onto people thousands of years too dead to respond, since obviously (s)he doesn't really care to much for the facts or else they wouldn't be a Christian.

If you get a chance, ask that person if people back then cared enough about those pesky facts to teach their children the FACT of poisonous materials or predatory animals in their area. I think that Christian will change their tune, probably along the lines of "but those are day to day things, those facts are good... but not the questions that REALLY matter..." Ugh... silly fluff headed morons...

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


Whatthedeuce
atheist
Whatthedeuce's picture
Posts: 200
Joined: 2008-07-19
User is offlineOffline
B166ER wrote:I would have to

B166ER wrote:

I would have to say to that Christian that (s)he is dumb and doesn't know what they are talking about. People wanted FACTS when it came to what foods were safe or not, not cute allegorical stories. People wanted FACTS about how fast and mean the large, predatory animals around were, not cutesy stories about how nice it was when it ate your face off.

I think that Christian was just projecting onto people thousands of years too dead to respond, since obviously (s)he doesn't really care to much for the facts or else they wouldn't be a Christian.

If you get a chance, ask that person if people back then cared enough about those pesky facts to teach their children the FACT of poisonous materials or predatory animals in their area. I think that Christian will change their tune, probably along the lines of "but those are day to day things, those facts are good... but not the questions that REALLY matter..." Ugh... silly fluff headed morons...

 

I may have misrepresented what the person was saying. The argument was not that people did not care about any facts whatsoever. The argument was that when writing within the genre of religious texts, and specifically creation myths, people were not concerned with facts.

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Whatthedeuce wrote:   I may

Whatthedeuce wrote:

 

I may have misrepresented what the person was saying. The argument was not that people did not care about any facts whatsoever. The argument was that when writing within the genre of religious texts, and specifically creation myths, people were not concerned with facts.

 

I would say people were concerned with having a story to explain the facts they had.  They had no way of finding out the rest of the facts.  Seriously, they didn't know about cells, didn't have microscopes to view pond scum.  Let alone understand genetics and DNA.  They didn't have a huge collection of fossils and those few they did find seemed utterly monstrous and fantastical.  Give the poor goat herders a break.  They didn't have any means to find out the relevant facts.

So they made up stories.  The ancient historians did as well.  They had never been to the ends of the earth, so they could make up stories about Amazons and such.  The ancient priests didn't know about biology or ecology or astronomy or cosmology or .... so they could make up their own stories to stroke the egos of the people who were supporting them.  Just like present day priests.

Have you heard about priests-pastors-rectors-reverends who continue on as spiritual leaders when they no longer believe in god/s/dess themselves?  I have.  It's a job.  And if your congregation no longer wants to put money in the collection plate on your worship day, you will have to get a real job.  So you cater to their egos.  "We are the chosen ones.  Our religion is better than their religion because we believe in the TRUTH and they are ignorant.  They need to be saved from themselves or (in some religions) destroyed."

The creation myths are way to explain what was then unexplainable, to provide some cohesiveness to the group and to keep the priest's standard of living up.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Whatthedeuce
atheist
Whatthedeuce's picture
Posts: 200
Joined: 2008-07-19
User is offlineOffline
cj, that was very

cj, that was very insightful, it addresses why creation myths may have been written. However, the issue at hand here is whether or not this creation myth and similar ones were intended to be read as factually accurate descriptions of the world and history.

You say that they made up stories. However, if you addressed whether or not they intended for the people who read those stories to read them as factually and historically accurate, I cannot see where.

 

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
Yes to B166ER & cj.

 

 

                I totally agree with B166ER & cj but I'll try to briefer.   Without Cds, Tvs, movies, strip joints etc......... the only entertainment was the clan storytellers;  what northern Europeans would call Bards & poets,  what they said was entertainment but not considered factual by their contemporarys. Then one day (or two or three)  some SOB wrote it all down,  then edited several times at which point the decendent fools thought it was real. Ergo religion.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Whatthedeuce wrote:cj, that

Whatthedeuce wrote:

cj, that was very insightful, it addresses why creation myths may have been written. However, the issue at hand here is whether or not this creation myth and similar ones were intended to be read as factually accurate descriptions of the world and history.

You say that they made up stories. However, if you addressed whether or not they intended for the people who read those stories to read them as factually and historically accurate, I cannot see where.

 

My apologies.  Yes, they were meant to be understood as factual and historically accurate.  So that the stories would enhance the control the priests had over the people.  Why be frightened into obedience by god/s/dess who were incapable of striking you with lightning?  ("See, I told Josh not to blaspheme Yahweh.  Now look at him all crispied.&quotEye-wink   Those religions that still insist on the creation myths being factual are still attempting to control their congregations.  It was and is manipulation.  It is more egregious now, I believe, because we have the facts.  You have to turn off your brain to believe the myths are facts today.

Did everyone in the ancient world really, truly bluely, believe the myths were true?  I have no clue.  My guess would be most people didn't have the spare time to give it much thought.  They were too busy trying to survive.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5939
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
I think the writers of the

I think the writers of the narrative thought it was true, even the parts they themselves added to it. I say 'added to', since what was written was not by any means wholly original to the people who wrote those parts of the scriptures.

It was based very heavily on earlier myths, even if not entirely consciously so. The writers had almost certainly heard versions of those earlier ideas, so their own ideas were inevitably strongly influenced by them.

Non-science based, ie largely intuitive, thinking, which applies to most people, even today, tries to come up with an idea that 'feels' right, that seems to make most sense within the context of the understanding of the individual. The idea of some form of empirical testing either never occurred to them, even if they had some way of doing it, or was specifically rejected, as pure 'reason' was typically considered superior by the philosophically inclined. 

The whole point of the writing was to give people a narrative - the 'honest' statement "We don't know" was not going to be acceptable.

The same thing applied to all the texts - no-one knew the exact words of what Jesus or his followers said - what was written was what the writers judged as what they would have said. Same for detailed description of events.

So in a sense, I think the narratives were both 'made up' and honestly believed in.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
Well, I think that part of

Well, I think that part of what was going on was that early man wanted/needed explanations for what he observed the world to be like. And from that point of view, the few observations that were available could easily support explanations that were good enough for basic survival.

 

So for example, if you are huddled around the communal fire at night and an apex predator is howling out in the woods, what you need to know is that if someone goes out there, the odds are that he may not come back. Perhaps in the morning, the body will be found all torn to shreds. No need to understand the specific species that did the job.

 

More on point to genesis: The ocean is blue, the sky is blue and sometimes water comes down from the sky. So the idea that there is water up there might be something that got picked up back in unwritten times and has been kicking around as a useful enough idea even after writing got going.

 

A great deal of old traditions might have the concept of a useful approximation as part of what was going on. So yah, it is possible that ancient man believed this stuff.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Whatthedeuce wrote:

sorry, I meant to say Genesis 1-11, not all of Genesis.

There is no need to qualify it. All of Genesis is fiction as are the rest of the Septuagint stories regardless of having been translated into an artificial liturgical language called Hebrew even though written using Aramaic script. A long sentence but I hope it addresses the major misconceptions.

Whatthedeuce wrote:
In a discussion I recently had with a Christian, the reason for why Genesis is read allegorically is because during the time period, people were not concerned with facts. All similar religious stories  and creation myths of the time and region were meant in a figurative sense. Now, my knowledge of this topic is limited but I know other people on this site have studied this topic more in depth. I'm wondering, is this position historically accurate?

As to the time period, we have no evidence the story existed prior to the 1st c. BC although it can be construed to have been created in the previous century. So it is not a matter of people not being concerned with the facts. The story is a god story. It is not particularly different from other creation stories and without the pious translations and interpolations the sections you mention are lifted from Amun of Egypt -- who is Yahweh, ram's horns and all.

As to not caring about facts, it was created as entertaining fiction as were all the other god stories. Facts are of interest in none of them. It does not differ from the others in this respect. The stories in the Septuagint, aka Old Testament, are just so stories explaining rituals and taboos and are not considered to be more than that in Judaism. In Christianity give a man a gospel and he will come up with six different ways to baptize and a dozen ways to do bread and wine. For Judaism it is the reverse the story can be understood any number of ways but the rituals and taboos must remain unchanged. That is why in the last century in the more backward parts of Eastern Europe Jews were killed by other Jews for the strange ritual of a Bar Mitzvah as it derives from one of the gospels.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


ubuntuAnyone
Theist
ubuntuAnyone's picture
Posts: 862
Joined: 2009-08-06
User is offlineOffline
Whatthedeuce wrote:In a

Whatthedeuce wrote:

In a discussion I recently had with a Christian, the reason for why Genesis is read allegorically is because during the time period, people were not concerned with facts. All similar religious stories  and creation myths of the time and region were meant in a figurative sense. Now, my knowledge of this topic is limited but I know other people on this site have studied this topic more in depth. I'm wondering, is this position historically accurate?

I've read varying accounts, and it's tough to say whether they saw them as

  • Allegorical: has an analog context in their time and space
  • Symbolic :non analogous but full of theological symbolism. This was the predominent view in the Middle Ages
  • As a literary device: the myths have form such that they are mnenomic
  • Literal account: The YEC position

The most compelling account I think are the arguments for literary constructions considering the oral nature of cultures then with very few literate people, the expense involved in written records, and other issues. It also seems that ancient Semitic languages reflect this nature too.

 

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5939
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Any narrative that survived

Any narrative that survived for such time periods would have to have a strong mnemonic aspect, regardless of whatever was consciously written into it.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

When considering the variations on creation myths I find TV shows to be a useful analogy. When show concept (Got Talent or Can Dance or Iron Chef) is popular it is implemented in other countries with nationalist variations. At times this applies to even a series such as Life on Mars or Law & Order UK with more variable quality and success.

There are really no other differences in the fundamental myths. It appears different for the Septuagint as a particular collection of stories, the Septuagint, was written under Greek literary influence and became popular in that culture. The more we learn about ancient cultures the more we find similar stories but as in Egypt carved in stone rather than transmitted and copied on parchment and papyrus and taken up by religious basket-cases.

The other difference is the other ancient ones do not read as well. The main reason is the Greek influence and composition in Greek which makes the material more familiar. A secondary reason is an Egyptian translation is often only one person's and rarely more than two person's translation of the text. In the case of the Septuagint literally thousands of people have been involved in translation and unlike Egyptology literary merit is more important than consistency and accuracy.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml