Immigration and idiots

robj101
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Immigration and idiots

I'm past tired of seeing idiots typing small items such as "your short history you are all immigrants." blah blah.

Number one, do normal people comparatively speak of all immigrants in relation to illegal immigrants? This is disgustingly retarded. (I said the R word, oh noes)

Number 2, My parents were born here, their parents were born here, and their parents before them. Now, what generation in an idiots eyes will no longer be considered "immigrants". I'm tempted to throw illegal on the back of that because they seem to not know a difference.

Number 3, I happen to like Arizonas newest immigration law, I think it is a little late but all this insane political correctness has allowed it to become a problem in the first place. I would guess most here actually disagree with the new law but, I wish Texas would employ it. Ron Paul in 2012 !

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I had friends whose family

I had a friend in school whose family had farmed the same land near Yuma, AZ (where I grew up), for 4 generations.  Before AZ was a territory, let alone a state.  Some of his older relatives only spoke Spanish.  Because of that law, they will now have to prove their legality any time some police officer wants to harass some Mexicans.  This is wonderful, how?  How many generations do you have to live in the US before your citizenship is unquestioned?

I agree we need to do something about illegal immigration.  To fix the problem with illegals from Central and South America, improvements will have to happen in their own countries.  As long as the US is perceived as a better place to live, people will come here illegally.  And it doesn't matter about our laws, our fences, our enforcement.  They will come until their own countries improve.

Also, those people are not the only ones who come and stay illegally.  Focusing on the accent does not get all of the law breakers out of the country.  And just how are you going to remove them?  Escort their own transportation?  Who is paying for the escort?  Buses?  Planes?  How many buses and planes do you have lined up?  Forced marches like the whites did to the Navajo and Cherokee?  The estimate is over 10,000,000 people are illegally in the US.  If you can figure out a way to get them all identified, rounded up, and out of here without spending a ton of money, I'm for it.

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I didn't say it was going to

I didn't say it was going to solve the problem, I just think it will help. I would like to be brown skinned and talk with an accent, I would be proud to show off proof of my citizenship.

 

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cj wrote:I agree we need to

cj wrote:
I agree we need to do something about illegal immigration.  To fix the problem with illegals from Central and South America, improvements will have to happen in their own countries.  As long as the US is perceived as a better place to live,

Tough shittles

Disreputable acts of CIA (and other intelligence authorities) aside, it isn't our fault that South America is in the shape that it's in. Nor is it our responsibility to fix their problems for them.

Quote:
people will come here illegally.

I'd change that to "As long as our politicians ('Rs' and 'Ds' both) continue to seek the Hispanic vote, there will be economic migration from the south"

America isn't going to become a 'nonpreferrable' place to live any time soon - UNLESS politicians decide to make US inhospitable to economic migrants.

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I'm a legal immigrant

And I resent the fact that people come here (don't care where from) and expect the rules to suddenly NOT apply to them.

 

Go back to your shit-hole country and go through the appropriate channels.

 

Our (U.S.) Government is NOT doing what they are charged with as a basic task of government. AZ just laid out the rules more clearly, the fact that people are aghast is a joke.


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Kapkao wrote: Tough shittles

Kapkao wrote:

Tough shittles

Disreputable acts of CIA (and other intelligence authorities) aside, it isn't our fault that South America is in the shape that it's in. Nor is it our responsibility to fix their problems for them.

 

I didn't say we were going to fix their problems for them, nor do I think we should.  I'm just saying it doesn't matter what we do until their problems are fixed.  This law doesn't help anything, won't fix anything.  There aren't that many police in the entire state of AZ to make a sizable dent in the number of illegals there.  Just numbers, just counting, no political agenda on my part.

 

Kapkao wrote:

Quote:
people will come here illegally.

I'd change that to "As long as our politicians ('Rs' and 'Ds' both) continue to seek the Hispanic vote, there will be economic migration from the south"

America isn't going to become a 'nonpreferrable' place to live any time soon - UNLESS politicians decide to make US inhospitable to economic migrants.

 

Won't work.  Sorry.  I had a young woman tell me of her family.  The entire family - children and all - came across the border three times.  They paid a coyote (guide) $10,000 each time.  They made that money picking lettuce in the fields around Yuma.  Imagine - picking lettuce until you have $10,000.  How many hours is that?  Lettuce is picked by hand, you stoop over and slice at the ground level.  And you are paid by the head.  I am not trying to romanticize these people, but to give you an idea of their determination and how hard they are willing to work for their dream. 

I know we are not responsible for their dreams or assisting them to fulfill their dreams.  But simple minded law enforcement tactics won't work against that kind of determination.  Our ideas of "economic incentives" do not compare to these people's idea of what is an economic incentive.  We might fine them - so what?  They managed to put together the money to get here once, they can do it again.  We send them home - so what?  They just come back.  Toss them in jail?  And how many jails is that?  How many guards, how many free meals? 

We don't have the technology to seal our borders with force fields - which is the only way I can think of to keep people out of the US.  Come to think it, we would have to seal the coasts as well as land borders - all the coasts.

It's the money, Kap - I don't want my tax dollars going to jail them, feed them, transportation home.  So some wind up in jail because they are bad actors and that costs money.  But those numbers are less than 1% of the total of illegal immigrants in this country.  If we treated all illegal immigrants (Europeans, Africans, Asians, Australians and Canadians as well) like criminals, the numbers would quickly overwhelm our penal systems.  I don't think this is a good idea.  I'd rather have murderers and rapists in jail, not families.

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Abu_Lahab wrote:And I

Abu_Lahab wrote:

And I resent the fact that people come here (don't care where from) and expect the rules to suddenly NOT apply to them.

 

Go back to your shit-hole country and go through the appropriate channels.

 

Our (U.S.) Government is NOT doing what they are charged with as a basic task of government. AZ just laid out the rules more clearly, the fact that people are aghast is a joke.

 

I understand your frustration.  I wish the answer was as easy as just enforcing the existing law.

The problem with illegal immigration is not recent.  And the US has tried a number of different ways to enforce immigration and supply the local economy along with the southern border with sufficient workers.  So far, all tactics have all been insufficient given the size of the border, the number of people crossing the border illegally, the amount of money it would take to properly police the border, and the inhospitable terrain.  I don't have any answers and I am not advocating the US should fix their problems either collectively as nations or individually.  I just haven't seen or heard of a strategy that would work.  I'm open to suggestions.

Congratulations on your legal immigration and best wishes.

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Agreed Rob... But in this

Agreed Rob...

 

But in this politically correct era, and with the Liberal McCarthy-ism that has become accusations of racism...where they politisize issues that would otherwise be simple common sense following of the existing laws... people with a pre-disposition to lean left of center have been trained to react to the stimuli of Race baiting...

 

...and Bill maher and Keith Olberman acuse Fox of being fear mongerers (they are, but so is MSNBC and the Liberal left)


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Rich Woods wrote: Agreed

Rich Woods wrote:

Agreed Rob...

 

But in this politically correct era, and with the Liberal McCarthy-ism that has become accusations of racism...where they politisize issues that would otherwise be simple common sense following of the existing laws... people with a pre-disposition to lean left of center have been trained to react to the stimuli of Race baiting...

 

...and Bill maher and Keith Olberman acuse Fox of being fear mongerers (they are, but so is MSNBC and the Liberal left)

 

Have you ever driven along I-8 in southern Arizona?  There was a joke at the UofA when I was there - "I really like the beach in Arizona, especially the part between New Mexico and California."

My point is that it is all very well to talk about enforcing the border.  But until you have been there and seen how much there is and how desolate it is, you have no clue about enforcing it.  Stop in Dateland, AZ, on a summer afternoon, get out of your car, breathe deep, then hop back into your air conditioned car and speed on down the road to real civilization and an air conditioned motel.  Take a look at a map of southern Arizona, and count the number of roads that cross the border.  There is a reason there are so few.

Fine, send them home.  They will just come back.  And again.  And again.  Just how much money are you willing to spend to send over 10,000,000 people back to their home of origin and keep them there?  How many buses do you have in your hip pocket?

People who want to reduce taxes and gripe about how much they pay in taxes and then want law enforcement to move the earth without any additional money -- very unrealistic and irrational.  If you want to send them all home -- COUGH IT UP!!!  Personally, it isn't such a big deal to me that I want my taxes increased enough to send them all home.

I don't see how you get to fear mongering racism.  But then, I don't listen to talk radio or TV, so I'm probably missing out on the sillier arguments.  It is, was, and always has been strictly economic forces at work.  Dollars only come in one color.

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Rich Woods wrote:Agreed

Rich Woods wrote:

Agreed Rob...

 

But in this politically correct era, and with the Liberal McCarthy-ism that has become accusations of racism...where they politisize issues that would otherwise be simple common sense following of the existing laws... people with a pre-disposition to lean left of center have been trained to react to the stimuli of Race baiting...

 

 

  I  agree with your assessment.     There is a pervasive, leftist bent that normally decries the use of negative stereotyping but ironically still finds it useful to employ that same "dastardly" tactic when it suits their purposes.  Despite the double-standard it still remains a tactic that is quite effective at silencing the opposition.

 

 

 

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As I stated, all immigrants

As I stated, all immigrants are not illegal. There are some here legally who do not speak english, but that does not mean they do not have paperwork to prove they are here legally.  The AZ law does not affect these people unless you count the "racial profiling" which imo is a politically correct joke on us. After 911 people were afraid to hurt someones feelings by racially profiling them, where are our priorities? Again, I'm just glad someone finally stood up and decided to do something.

Now we just need to figure out how to drop our dependency on china and we will be golden ><

edit: in response to CJ btw

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cj wrote:  I don't see how

cj wrote:

 

I don't see how you get to fear mongering racism.  But then, I don't listen to talk radio or TV, so I'm probably missing out on the sillier arguments.

    Here's a fairly good example cj http://www.aztlan.net/

   ..and the flip side:                         http://www.vdare.com/

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What I don't get is all the

What I don't get is all the leftists that hate corporations and love unions and minimum wage. Yet, the pro union crowd is not outraged enough by what corporations do to illegals to make hiring them a major crime. They also don't seem to concerned about illegal driving down wages and benefits enough to stop it. All they do is criticize teabaggers for wanting illegal hiring stopped.

It seems like the left and right would unite on this one to stop the hiring of illegals, what is up this situation? Please explain if you have any ideas.

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Corporations love cheap

Corporations love cheap labor, all politicians have corporate ties and "special interests"

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


cj
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ProzacDeathWish wrote:cj

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

cj wrote:

I don't see how you get to fear mongering racism.  But then, I don't listen to talk radio or TV, so I'm probably missing out on the sillier arguments.

    Here's a fairly good example cj http://www.aztlan.net/

   ..and the flip side:                         http://www.vdare.com/

 

Yeah, I heard about the young man.  The family is right to be outraged.  I would be, wouldn't you?

The libertarian guy has some facts wrong, but it isn't worth arguing about.

I still say, the issue has developed because of economics on both sides of the border.  And the solution is in resolving those economic issues.  Beating the race card, or jacking up law enforcement with nonexistent personnel and funds only prolongs the pain.

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cj wrote:ProzacDeathWish

cj wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

cj wrote:

I don't see how you get to fear mongering racism.  But then, I don't listen to talk radio or TV, so I'm probably missing out on the sillier arguments.

    Here's a fairly good example cj http://www.aztlan.net/

   ..and the flip side:                         http://www.vdare.com/

 

Yeah, I heard about the young man.  The family is right to be outraged.  I would be, wouldn't you?

The libertarian guy has some facts wrong, but it isn't worth arguing about.

I still say, the issue has developed because of economics on both sides of the border.  And the solution is in resolving those economic issues.  Beating the race card, or jacking up law enforcement with nonexistent personnel and funds only prolongs the pain.

Mexico has a long history of revolutions, unfortunately they tend to allow the wrong people to take power. There was only one president they had who actually tried to make things better but he died after three years in office, I forget his name though and some assalope general took charge from there. It's just so much easier to walk over here than it is to start an uprising and fix their own country. Enforce laws, make new ones, whatever it takes to reverse that situation. Their leaders are wrapped up in the drug cartels and don't give a shiz about the people quite obviously, it's amazing we have relations with mexico at all...I would bet we have invaded countries in better shape and forced democracy on them, in the very recent past.

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cj
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EXC wrote: What I don't get

EXC wrote:

What I don't get is all the leftists that hate corporations and love unions and minimum wage. Yet, the pro union crowd is not outraged enough by what corporations do to illegals to make hiring them a major crime. They also don't seem to concerned about illegal driving down wages and benefits enough to stop it. All they do is criticize teabaggers for wanting illegal hiring stopped.

It seems like the left and right would unite on this one to stop the hiring of illegals, what is up this situation? Please explain if you have any ideas.

 

There are plenty of people who are outraged at how illegals are treated - from safe work places to wages to benefits - and they are trying to do something about it.  Including, sending people home or getting their green cards squared away.

The cost of hiring illegals is actually a wash.  The corporations take out social security, unemployment insurance, etc, but the illegals never see any of that.  So it is a gain for the average worker in that those funds are available and and the taxes for these funds do not have to be raised as often.  They also short the illegals on pay and overtime.  So there is actually a - small - decrease in cost of goods.  What is really different is the corps bottom line.  They make out like bandits.  All this expense on paper but not in actual funds.  Whoopee.

One year in Idaho, the forest service said they would hire anyone who showed up to work.  They had trees in a nursery that needed thinning.  The trees were seedlings, about 3-4 inches tall, in strips about 12 inches wide.  Thinning meant bending over from the waist straddling that strip all day long with a few breaks.  Six white people showed up to work.  None of them were as fast as the brown skinned fellas.  One made it all the way through day one.  And that white person didn't show up for the second day. 

Again, I am not intending to romanticize the work.  But when people talk about hard, dirty, back breaking work, it is literal and not figurative.

I think most of the "liberals" or "bleeding hearts" or what ever pejorative term you prefer are actually just more realistic.  The illegals do not want to go home and will return.  Their perception is breaking your back in the US is better for their children's future than staying at home.  So working with them, the "liberals" are just trying to improve the situation as it is, not as it should be.

You can "should" until the cows come home and it won't change what "is".

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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robj101 wrote:Mexico has a

robj101 wrote:

Mexico has a long history of revolutions, unfortunately they tend to allow the wrong people to take power. There was only one president they had who actually tried to make things better but he died after three years in office, I forget his name though and some assalope general took charge from there. It's just so much easier to walk over here than it is to start an uprising and fix their own country. Enforce laws, make new ones, whatever it takes to reverse that situation. Their leaders are wrapped up in the drug cartels and don't give a shiz about the people quite obviously, it's amazing we have relations with mexico at all...I would bet we have invaded countries in better shape and forced democracy on them, in the very recent past.

 

All is of this is true as far as I know.  But please, no more nation building wars, okay?  I guess if we did to Mexico what we are doing to Iraq and Afghanistan, at least we wouldn't have to move troops and equipment as far to trash another country.  I'm getting real tired of the US trying to run the rest of the world.  It costs money and the stated goals of the "police action", "war on terror", whatever are never reached.

It is not just Mexico.  A lot of illegals come through Mexico, but their home is further south.  Guatemala is a big source at the moment because of ethnic cleansing there.

It is not just drugs and politics.  It is also hope.  People need to be able to see hope for a future or they will go where they perceive a hopeful future to be.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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I have argued with people

I have argued with people before on the cheap labor issue, I would still contend that raising the pay would tempt more american ppl to work. I'm not going to dig ditches and build roads for 12$ an hour. No way, thats freakin hard work and it's out in the elements. However, were it to pay say 20$ an hour, I have this strange idea that the young people might prefer that to the 6$ an hour mcdonalds job. In the previous arguments I have been in it always involved the young people, it's said that they do not want to work, I think they just do not want to break their back and sweat their ass off for peanuts. Consider the fall of Rome, we are headed there fast, importing people to do the work, living on welfare, depending on another country for our goods, something needs to change.

If all the illegals were run out today, the pay would have to go up for these jobs they are currently providing labor for. The cost of many goods would rise because of this, peaches for example. But more citizens would be making the money to spend here, in this country.

I'm old enough, just barely but I am old enough to remember when something was made in the US it was a good product, now we have allowed companies to shift outside the US for cheap labor AND we are allowing cheap laborers to walk in and take jobs. What do we produce anymore? Not much compared to 50 years ago I can assure you of that. I watched a documentary about some people who tried to NOT have anything made in china in their house..lol you can't do that unless you simply want to do without or make your own lol.

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cj wrote:robj101

cj wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Mexico has a long history of revolutions, unfortunately they tend to allow the wrong people to take power. There was only one president they had who actually tried to make things better but he died after three years in office, I forget his name though and some assalope general took charge from there. It's just so much easier to walk over here than it is to start an uprising and fix their own country. Enforce laws, make new ones, whatever it takes to reverse that situation. Their leaders are wrapped up in the drug cartels and don't give a shiz about the people quite obviously, it's amazing we have relations with mexico at all...I would bet we have invaded countries in better shape and forced democracy on them, in the very recent past.

 

All is of this is true as far as I know.  But please, no more nation building wars, okay?  I guess if we did to Mexico what we are doing to Iraq and Afghanistan, at least we wouldn't have to move troops and equipment as far to trash another country.  I'm getting real tired of the US trying to run the rest of the world.  It costs money and the stated goals of the "police action", "war on terror", whatever are never reached.

It is not just Mexico.  A lot of illegals come through Mexico, but their home is further south.  Guatemala is a big source at the moment because of ethnic cleansing there.

It is not just drugs and politics.  It is also hope.  People need to be able to see hope for a future or they will go where they perceive a hopeful future to be.

They could fix their own country, thats what I'm pointing out, just the fact that it's easier to walk over here and enjoy what we have built rather than build their own.

In no form or fashion have I stated we should mosey into Mexico and rebuild it for them, just pointing out that we have done so with other countries and perhaps raising the question of why Mexico isn't one of those.

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The illegal immigration

The illegal immigration 'problem' is your sacred 'free market' and economic incentives at work. It is probably a net benefit to the US. To do all the jobs that are still needed but that the bulk of the 'legit' residents aren't interested in.

Just keep the border strong enough so that some effort is required to get across, so that some degree of determination is required to get across, and to make it clear it is not an open invitation.

WTF is wrong with you guys? (cj excepted of course).

 

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robj101 wrote:I didn't say

robj101 wrote:

I didn't say it was going to solve the problem, I just think it will help. I would like to be brown skinned and talk with an accent, I would be proud to show off proof of my citizenship.

 

That's fucking retarded. This law is a bunch of fascist nonsense that will do nothing to stem the flow of illegals. Who wants to start a pool on how long it takes before one of Arizona's Hispanic officers gets carded while they're off duty?

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BobSpence1 wrote:The illegal

BobSpence1 wrote:

The illegal immigration 'problem' is your sacred 'free market' and economic incentives at work. It is probably a net benefit to the US. To do all the jobs that are still needed but that the bulk of the 'legit' residents aren't interested in.

Just keep the border strong enough so that some effort is required to get across, so that some degree of determination is required to get across, and to make it clear it is not an open invitation.

WTF is wrong with you guys? (cj excepted of course).

 

Check the census on how many are predicted to be here in the next 40 years, the way things currently are. Will your kids even be able to work at a mcdonalds when the free market is saturated with people who have no ties to this country?

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nutxaq wrote:robj101 wrote:I

nutxaq wrote:

robj101 wrote:

I didn't say it was going to solve the problem, I just think it will help. I would like to be brown skinned and talk with an accent, I would be proud to show off proof of my citizenship.

 

That's fucking retarded. This law is a bunch of fascist nonsense that will do nothing to stem the flow of illegals. Who wants to start a pool on how long it takes before one of Arizona's Hispanic officers gets carded while they're off duty?

lol that would be so terrible. (runs in a circle screaming)

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cj wrote:Abu_Lahab

cj wrote:

Abu_Lahab wrote:

And I resent the fact that people come here (don't care where from) and expect the rules to suddenly NOT apply to them.

 

Go back to your shit-hole country and go through the appropriate channels.

 

Our (U.S.) Government is NOT doing what they are charged with as a basic task of government. AZ just laid out the rules more clearly, the fact that people are aghast is a joke.

 

I understand your frustration.  I wish the answer was as easy as just enforcing the existing law.

The problem with illegal immigration is not recent.  And the US has tried a number of different ways to enforce immigration and supply the local economy along with the southern border with sufficient workers.  So far, all tactics have all been insufficient given the size of the border, the number of people crossing the border illegally, the amount of money it would take to properly police the border, and the inhospitable terrain.  I don't have any answers and I am not advocating the US should fix their problems either collectively as nations or individually.  I just haven't seen or heard of a strategy that would work.  I'm open to suggestions.

Congratulations on your legal immigration and best wishes.

I think the answer is to allow people to come here and work legally while not becoming citizens. If you open the borders you will create a choke point where it will make it easier to weed out dangerous and undesirable people. The only ones that would still risk crossing through the desert will be those that couldn't get through a border crossing.

When they get here let them work in the fields and do other menial jobs legally and tax their wages. Put regulations in place that would require any employer paying good living wages such as construction work to only hire U.S. citizens.

All of this money spent on hamfisted policies is a waste.

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but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

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I think the problem with

I think the problem with illegal immigrants is the fact that they are not protected by US law, and hence can get abused and work for below min wage wages, and work  with no access to healthcare or education.

 

The thing is that the immigrants should go through the immigration process, but the process itself should be straight forward and easy, so that it would be easier and cheaper to go through that than to hide in some dude's van and run from ICE.

 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:I think

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I think the problem with illegal immigrants is the fact that they are not protected by US law, and hence can get abused and work for below min wage wages, and work  with no access to healthcare or education.

The thing is that the immigrants should go through the immigration process, but the process itself should be straight forward and easy, so that it would be easier and cheaper to go through that than to hide in some dude's van and run from ICE. 

Entirely reasonable points.

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robj101 wrote:I'm not going

robj101 wrote:

I'm not going to dig ditches and build roads for 12$ an hour. No way, thats freakin hard work and it's out in the elements. However, were it to pay say 20$ an hour, I have this strange idea that the young people might prefer that to the 6$ an hour mcdonalds job.

 

Not to sound like a dick, but anyone can dig a ditch, just like anyone can serve fast food.  Neither is more deserving of a significant wage increase over the other. 


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BobSpence1

BobSpence1 wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I think the problem with illegal immigrants is the fact that they are not protected by US law, and hence can get abused and work for below min wage wages, and work  with no access to healthcare or education.

The thing is that the immigrants should go through the immigration process, but the process itself should be straight forward and easy, so that it would be easier and cheaper to go through that than to hide in some dude's van and run from ICE. 

Entirely reasonable points.

 

I agree with both of you.  Now if we could give a clue to the ones who mouth off without thought, we could be getting places.

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v4ultingbassist

v4ultingbassist wrote:

robj101 wrote:

I'm not going to dig ditches and build roads for 12$ an hour. No way, thats freakin hard work and it's out in the elements. However, were it to pay say 20$ an hour, I have this strange idea that the young people might prefer that to the 6$ an hour mcdonalds job.

 

Not to sound like a dick, but anyone can dig a ditch, just like anyone can serve fast food.  Neither is more deserving of a significant wage increase over the other. 

Have you ever done construction based labor vs. fast food labor? It only takes one day to see what the difference is.

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nutxaq wrote:Have you ever

nutxaq wrote:

Have you ever done construction based labor vs. fast food labor? It only takes one day to see what the difference is.

 

Yep.  Not too significant to me.  The only justification I see for higher wages in construction is because it is more dangerous.  Outside of that, I didn't find it any more difficult.


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v4ultingbassist wrote:nutxaq

v4ultingbassist wrote:

nutxaq wrote:

Have you ever done construction based labor vs. fast food labor? It only takes one day to see what the difference is.

 

Yep.  Not too significant to me.  The only justification I see for higher wages in construction is because it is more dangerous.  Outside of that, I didn't find it any more difficult.

Well it's settled then. We'll bottle your semen and create a race of super soldiers and day laborers. The rest of us will go on making more money for back breaking, dangerous ass work.

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nutxaq wrote:Well it's

nutxaq wrote:

Well it's settled then. We'll bottle your semen and create a race of super soldiers and day laborers. The rest of us will go on making more money for back breaking, dangerous ass work.

 

No need to get hostile.  Prevailing wage for labor in construction where I'm at is 33/hr.  General labor is not worth that much money.


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v4ultingbassist wrote:nutxaq

v4ultingbassist wrote:

nutxaq wrote:

Well it's settled then. We'll bottle your semen and create a race of super soldiers and day laborers. The rest of us will go on making more money for back breaking, dangerous ass work.

 

No need to get hostile.  Prevailing wage for labor in construction where I'm at is 33/hr.  General labor is not worth that much money.

No hostility. I'm just saying that if you think that digging a ditch and hauling around a bunch of heavy shit is no more physically taxing than flipping burgers and super sizing people then you must be an excellent physical specimen.

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but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
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  Mexico detains "illegal

  Mexico detains "illegal aliens" arriving from Central and South America. 

   http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-05-25-mexico-migrants_N.htm

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Mexico

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nutxaq wrote:No hostility.

nutxaq wrote:

No hostility. I'm just saying that if you think that digging a ditch and hauling around a bunch of heavy shit is no more physically taxing than flipping burgers and super sizing people then you must be an excellent physical specimen.

 

It is more physically taxing, but I think customer service is just as shitty because you have to deal with fucking idiots all day long.  At least with construction you don't have people hounding you for stupid things all day.  Do you have to deal with inspectors, engineers, and foremen who appear not to know what is going on?  Yes.  Every 5 minutes?  I don't think so.  Also, I said significant difference.  Construction work does deserve more, but not 8/hr compared to 33/hr.  I think that is ridiculous.

 

EDIT:  Also, I'm pretty weak.  No need to make it out like you need to lift 3 times a week to be strong enough.  It's not that hard, and I did fine.


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nutxaq wrote:cj

nutxaq wrote:

cj wrote:

Abu_Lahab wrote:

And I resent the fact that people come here (don't care where from) and expect the rules to suddenly NOT apply to them.

 

Go back to your shit-hole country and go through the appropriate channels.

 

Our (U.S.) Government is NOT doing what they are charged with as a basic task of government. AZ just laid out the rules more clearly, the fact that people are aghast is a joke.

 

I understand your frustration.  I wish the answer was as easy as just enforcing the existing law.

The problem with illegal immigration is not recent.  And the US has tried a number of different ways to enforce immigration and supply the local economy along with the southern border with sufficient workers.  So far, all tactics have all been insufficient given the size of the border, the number of people crossing the border illegally, the amount of money it would take to properly police the border, and the inhospitable terrain.  I don't have any answers and I am not advocating the US should fix their problems either collectively as nations or individually.  I just haven't seen or heard of a strategy that would work.  I'm open to suggestions.

Congratulations on your legal immigration and best wishes.

I think the answer is to allow people to come here and work legally while not becoming citizens. If you open the borders you will create a choke point where it will make it easier to weed out dangerous and undesirable people. The only ones that would still risk crossing through the desert will be those that couldn't get through a border crossing.

When they get here let them work in the fields and do other menial jobs legally and tax their wages. Put regulations in place that would require any employer paying good living wages such as construction work to only hire U.S. citizens.

All of this money spent on hamfisted policies is a waste.

They have been doing this for years and years already, illegals do not want to go through the process.

green card
NOUN:

An official document issued by the U.S. government to aliens, allowing them to work legally in the United States.

 

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cj wrote:BobSpence1

cj wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I think the problem with illegal immigrants is the fact that they are not protected by US law, and hence can get abused and work for below min wage wages, and work  with no access to healthcare or education.

The thing is that the immigrants should go through the immigration process, but the process itself should be straight forward and easy, so that it would be easier and cheaper to go through that than to hide in some dude's van and run from ICE. 

Entirely reasonable points.

 

I agree with both of you.  Now if we could give a clue to the ones who mouth off without thought, we could be getting places.

They already enjoy welfare and free healthcare, now they need a labor union too? lawl we may as well let them walk over and become instant citizens.

 

Edit: oops forgot they don't really want to be citizens, they just want to make the $ and go back to mexico.

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v4ultingbassist wrote:It is

v4ultingbassist wrote:

It is more physically taxing, but I think customer service is just as shitty because you have to deal with fucking idiots all day long.  At least with construction you don't have people hounding you for stupid things all day.  Do you have to deal with inspectors, engineers, and foremen who appear not to know what is going on?  Yes.  Every 5 minutes?  I don't think so.  Also, I said significant difference.  Construction work does deserve more, but not 8/hr compared to 33/hr.  I think that is ridiculous.

 

EDIT:  Also, I'm pretty weak.  No need to make it out like you need to lift 3 times a week to be strong enough.  It's not that hard, and I did fine.

That's a fair point.

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robj101 wrote:They already

robj101 wrote:

They already enjoy welfare and free healthcare, now they need a labor union too? lawl we may as well let them walk over and become instant citizens.

 

Edit: oops forgot they don't really want to be citizens, they just want to make the $ and go back to mexico.

 

 

What are you talking about? I think that illegal immigrants should be deported and that anybody who wants to come to America should go through the process.

 

 

 


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robj101 wrote:they just want

robj101 wrote:

they just want to [...] go back to mexico.

 

I highly doubt they want to go back.


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robj101 wrote:They have been

robj101 wrote:

They have been doing this for years and years already, illegals do not want to go through the process.

green card
NOUN:

An official document issued by the U.S. government to aliens, allowing them to work legally in the United States.

 

Except that it's an arduous process. When your family is struggling and you need work and money right away cutting corners probably looks pretty appealing.

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but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
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v4ultingbassist

v4ultingbassist wrote:

robj101 wrote:

they just want to [...] go back to mexico.

 

I highly doubt they want to go back.

Um, where do you live man, here in Texas they talk about it all the time, I work at a tire store, I have sold many many tires to mexicans heading to guess where..yea Mexico. I sold a little pickup cheap to a mexican and he loaded it on a trailer and took it to..yea Mexico, more pointedly, his family in yea..Mexico.

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nutxaq wrote:robj101

nutxaq wrote:

robj101 wrote:

They have been doing this for years and years already, illegals do not want to go through the process.

green card
NOUN:

An official document issued by the U.S. government to aliens, allowing them to work legally in the United States.

 

Except that it's an arduous process. When your family is struggling and you need work and money right away cutting corners probably looks pretty appealing.

Doesn't make it right and legal though.

Ask them what happens to people south of Mexico who try to migrate through trying to get here, it's not pretty.

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Cpt_pineapple wrote:robj101

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

robj101 wrote:

They already enjoy welfare and free healthcare, now they need a labor union too? lawl we may as well let them walk over and become instant citizens.

 

Edit: oops forgot they don't really want to be citizens, they just want to make the $ and go back to mexico.

 

 

What are you talking about? I think that illegal immigrants should be deported and that anybody who wants to come to America should go through the process.

 

 

 

I apologize, your post seemed to say you were more worried about the well being of an illegal than the fact that they are illegal in the first place.

 

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robj101

robj101 wrote:

v4ultingbassist wrote:

robj101 wrote:

they just want to [...] go back to mexico.

 

I highly doubt they want to go back.

Um, where do you live man, here in Texas they talk about it all the time, I work at a tire store, I have sold many many tires to mexicans heading to guess where..yea Mexico. I sold a little pickup cheap to a mexican and he loaded it on a trailer and took it to..yea Mexico, more pointedly, his family in yea..Mexico.

Most of them send a lot of their money back and shack up together barracks style. They're just building a nest egg. The meager earnings they make here still go quite a ways back home.

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robj101 wrote:nutxaq

robj101 wrote:

nutxaq wrote:

robj101 wrote:

They have been doing this for years and years already, illegals do not want to go through the process.

green card
NOUN:

An official document issued by the U.S. government to aliens, allowing them to work legally in the United States.

 

Except that it's an arduous process. When your family is struggling and you need work and money right away cutting corners probably looks pretty appealing.

Doesn't make it right and legal though.

Ask them what happens to people south of Mexico who try to migrate through trying to get here, it's not pretty.

It doesn't, but that doesn't mean that just because something is a law doesn't make it a good law. There's been a lot of new information about the efficacy of zero tolerance policy making and most of it indicates that it's better to try and manage a problem than it is to try and stamp it out.

And what kind of lemming argument is that? Total appeal to authority and it's a shitty one at that. "Hey those guys are violating people civil rights. Why can't we?" It's MEXICO! If they were so fucking great at everything they do it would be Americans trying to cross the border for work. Great point. Let's follow Mexico's lead. There's a path to success.

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but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.


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Somewhere between 12 and 20

Somewhere between 12 and 20 million undocumented people, the majority of which come from ONE nation is not illegal immigration... its an invasion...

These people dont do work that Americans dont want to do... They do work that Americans dont want to do for Free... I have seen good paying construction jobs performed by illegal immigrants... who work dangerously because they have no chpice... they are also a danger to people around them...and trained construction laborers are now out of a job...

They do not pay back into a system they draw from, ...and its Tax Paying americans of every nationality who are footing that bill...

I love mexican people... In fact, I have never met a Mexican person who I didnt think was delightful, and the work ethic is downright inspirational... (They're like Asians without the amazing math skills) But I dont understand why so many insist on coming here illegally, when the process Is not all that difficult... 

I also recognize that for a large group of people, the crime rate is fairly low...

But... Last Week here in NJ a bunch of Bannano Crime Family members were arrested... the majority of them were Italian Americans... Now am *I* suppossed to claim racial bias because a bunch of people who share my ancestry, but broke the law were arrested?... Should I make the claim that Hispanic reformists make regarding the Arizona immigration Law?...

 "Since when is Breaking the Law illegal"??? 


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robj101 wrote:Um, where do

robj101 wrote:

Um, where do you live man, here in Texas they talk about it all the time

 

Ohio... lol 

 

I would think at least some portion of them try to get in with intentions of staying; I can't imagine they all come over to work so they can live better in Mexico... I would think the goal is to live better in America.


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v4ultingbassist

v4ultingbassist wrote:

robj101 wrote:

Um, where do you live man, here in Texas they talk about it all the time

 

Ohio... lol 

 

I would think at least some portion of them try to get in with intentions of staying; I can't imagine they all come over to work so they can live better in Mexico... I would think the goal is to live better in America.

I would like to think so as well, we all know comparatively mexico is teh suk, howeven regional pride or something has a grip on these people. I wish I had invented the cd with the mexican flag on it, or if I had a talent for latin lettering as they enjoy "viva mexico" followed by their last name on the rear windows of their pick up's.

Nope so many here make it blatantly obvious they are here for the $ and wal-mart. Now if they could turn it into mexico, things might change. The ones who have moved up north may be different, they are further away after all, and the closer you might get to the border the less american it will seem. I lived in San Antonio for a while, I left because I couldn't find a job after being fired by a racist mexican woman but thats a long story. The language barrier is really bad there if you work in the automotive or any manual labor industry, I couldn't get a job doing what I do because I don't speak spanish.

 

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you & cj are correct...

... in that preventing economic migration is an uphill battle. That doesn't make it a lost cause.

Nor, (for the record) has any closed-borders proponents suggested in this thread that there is a fool-proof method in preventing......... 'undesirable earthly neighbors' from walking into our borders un-announced.

BobSpence1 wrote:
The illegal immigration 'problem' is your sacred 'free market' and economic incentives at work. It is probably a net benefit to the US. To do all the jobs that are still needed but that the bulk of the 'legit' residents aren't interested in.

Just keep the border strong enough so that some effort is required to get across, so that some degree of determination is required to get across, and to make it clear it is not an open invitation.

WTF is wrong with you guys? (cj excepted of course).

 

This is apparently why you don't engage in politics over the internet;

I have spent quite a bit of time attempting to deduce the things sacred (unrelated to their private lives, naturally) to the moderators, special agents, admins, and of course; CO-FOUNDERS, here... but you (FINALLY) seem to offer your pet peeves up for grabs to anyone willing to make a note of them. It is unfortunate that Answers is not equally open about things that provoke his emotions - I would SO love to ignite him into a rage one day, for my petulent, power-tripping amusement, of course.

Mr. Spence.... you're a humanist, are you not?

BS1 OOPS SORRY, I MEANT BobSpence1 wrote:

To do all the jobs that are still needed but that the bulk of the 'legit' residents aren't interested in.

I wouldn't mind a cite for the underlined assertion. I'm not going to hold my breath for it either, because I don't believe your assertion is supported by established facts (how could it be?), but nevertheless...

As I suggested in the quaint little abbreviation I gave you in the previous quote box... your point is BS for 2 reasons:

#1:While the remaining (semi)free market in America has easily fallen to "lowest common denominator" in the sense of 'any 3rd world pleb willing to do the work for lowest compensation imaginable',  there are still many deeply rooted natives willing to do the same work for a competitive dollar amount. Several dozen million blue-collar residents in America still reside in America and have no lineage traceable to Mexico.

#2: "menial jobs" are becoming more-and-more easily replaced by Industrial Automation. It probably evokes imagery of that goofy Jettson's robotic nanny, but can you seriously suggest that andromorphic, semi-adaptive machines won't be clipping somebody's hedges in a few decades -or, for that matter, all of the other jobs currently fulfilled by illegals in the US? (kind of a rhetorical question)

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)