Quantum Physics

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Quantum Physics

I dont know if anyone has ever read the book the Field, but my dad says it is sooo absolutely true.  Anyway, the book says that quantum physics has proved that there is an intelligence in the world.  He still believes that the bible is a load of crap but he insists now that there is an intelligent agent.

So has anyone read the book?  What are your thoughts on quantum physics and if there really has been a proof for intelligent agent.

Anarchism is the only philosophy which brings to man the consciousness of himself; which maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination. Anarchism is therefore the teacher of the unity of life; not merely in nature, but in man.

Emma Goldman


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AnarchyMell wrote:I dont

AnarchyMell wrote:

I dont know if anyone has ever read the book the Field, but my dad says it is sooo absolutely true.  Anyway, the book says that quantum physics has proved that there is an intelligence in the world.  He still believes that the bible is a load of crap but he insists now that there is an intelligent agent.

So has anyone read the book?  What are your thoughts on quantum physics and if there really has been a proof for intelligent agent.

Without having read it, I might be wrong. But I would put money on the book being a Christian apologist book that mentions Aquinas.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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AnarchyMell wrote:What are

AnarchyMell wrote:

What are your thoughts on quantum physics and if there really has been a proof for intelligent agent.

Quantum physics is math, math, and more math. Unless that book has math in it, it's not about quantum physics.

I know, I know - I'm probably not giving it a fair shake -- I haven't read it -- but there's only so much a guy can take!

 

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Material is needed to hold

Material is needed to hold thoughts. Thoughts are not physical but an emergent affect of a biological process. When the material that holds the thoughts decays, the thoughts are not held anymore because the process is not going on anymore.

It is bullshit to say that an OBJECT that is not a brain, such as the universe, is capable of thought. The quark/atom/ much less a galaxy outside our deepest view of space has any connection to us whatso ever. How anyone can claim the universe is anything like a human brain, much less a giant cosmic brain or magical super brain is a DIPSHIT.

Quantum physics only postulates science based on math and formula, it does not justify absurdity.

Anyone claiming a giant consciousness might as well believe in unicorns and the tooth fairy.

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I would guess its probably

I would guess its probably making the standard mistake of those not familiar with the subject, in misunderstanding what is meant when they say a quantum object can be in a 'superposition of states' until observed.

Like Shroedinger's Cat in the thought experiment, where a cat in a box could be killed by release of a poison triggered by some quantum scale event. The idea is that, to us, the quantum object might be in two states simultaneously, and therefore so would the cat.

The idea is that there is a 'wave function' which is a mathematical expression describing the probabilty of each of the various possible states of the object concerned.

When 'observed' it 'collapses' into one definite state, randomly.

The point is that the 'observer' is not required to be a conscious being, it is only required to be an ordinary scale object in our world which is capable of detecting and indicating in some ordinary scale object, perhaps the movement of a indicator on scale, the actual state of the object observed. Experiments to demonstrate this have been performed.

Here is one link to such an experiment: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

Note this part, in particular the words I underlined:

Quote:

 

To demonstrate this, Weizmann Institute researchers built a tiny device measuring less than one micron in size, which had a barrier with two openings. They then sent a current of electrons towards the barrier. The "observer" in this experiment wasn't human. Institute scientists used for this purpose a tiny but sophisticated electronic detector that can spot passing electrons. The quantum "observer's" capacity to detect electrons could be altered by changing its electrical conductivity, or the strength of the current passing through it.

Apart from "observing," or detecting, the electrons, the detector had no effect on the current. Yet the scientists found that the very presence of the detector-"observer" near one of the openings caused changes in the interference pattern of the electron waves passing through the openings of the barrier. In fact, this effect was dependent on the "amount" of the observation: when the "observer's" capacity to detect electrons increased, in other words, when the level of the observation went up, the interference weakened; in contrast, when its capacity to detect electrons was reduced, in other words, when the observation slackened, the interference increased.

This "observer'' stuff is the only aspect I am aware of that can possibly lend support to the 'need' for a universal consciouness.

Other aspects of QM point directly away from God ideas, by allowing purely random effects to be the origin of macro-scale events, and for pairs of particles to appear out of nothing. The unpredictable, apparently non-causal aspects of reality pointed at by QM are as purely random as anything we know of, which is the opposite of conscious decision-making, unless you equate tossing a coin to be equivalent to the deliberate decision of a conscious being.

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Brian, according to certain

Brian, according to certain versions of quantum physics, matter is absolutely not needed for a brain. In fact, there is an exact replica of you sitting in front of an exact replica of your computer, well without going full bore mathematical I can't really provide a proper location but for our purpose let's just call it the edge of the universe.

 

That much having been said, I too have not read the book. However, any book that claims to have proved a non-corporeal brain loose in the world is, at best, invoking some variant of pantheism. On this matter, I simply refuse to “take one for the team”. If someone else want to at least try the first chapter, feel free and let the rest of us know how it works out.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Brian, according to certain versions of quantum physics, matter is absolutely not needed for a brain. In fact, there is an exact replica of you sitting in front of an exact replica of your computer, well without going full bore mathematical I can't really provide a proper location but for our purpose let's just call it the edge of the universe.

 

That much having been said, I too have not read the book. However, any book that claims to have proved a non-corporeal brain loose in the world is, at best, invoking some variant of pantheism. On this matter, I simply refuse to “take one for the team”. If someone else want to at least try the first chapter, feel free and let the rest of us know how it works out.

 

Some form of matter is definitely required for a complex, persistent structure such as a brain, which is required to support complex processes and persistent memories.

Pure energy cannot do this.

That hypothetical 'exact replica' would still be formed of particles of matter, otherwise it would be meaningless to call it an 'exact replica'. And even so, it is wrong to say such a replica actually does exist. All QM would say is that there is a non-zero probability of such a thing.

In fact, an exact replica would be extremely unlikely compared to all the various merely 'similar' entities, and even those would be far less probable than all the 'possible' rough approximations, and so on.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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The guy who wrote the book

The guy who wrote the book is gregg braden and after I read through his website, I have come to the conclusion that its just another new age religion.

For over 22 years, Gregg Braden has searched high mountain villages, remote monasteries and forgotten texts to uncover their timeless secrets. Combining his discoveries with the best science of today, his original research crosses the traditional boundaries of science, history, and religion offering fresh insights into ancient mysteries. In doing so he has redefined our relationship to our inner and outer worlds, while sharing his life-affirming message of hope and possibility.Join Gregg through his highly acclaimed media specials, interviews, seminars, books and CD’s as he describes why the greatest epoch of peace, cooperation, and healing is yet to come!

http://www.greggbraden.com/

My dad was telling me today that it has been proved, you can put your hand through a wall.  This is all from the book, btw.  Its all because of quantum physics.  I just had to laugh to myself.  I was reminded of the quote, "if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics.".

 

 

 

Anarchism is the only philosophy which brings to man the consciousness of himself; which maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination. Anarchism is therefore the teacher of the unity of life; not merely in nature, but in man.

Emma Goldman


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CORRECTION!Gregg Braden

CORRECTION!

Gregg Braden wrote the book, The Divine Matrix, another book my dad swears is true.

 

This is the book I was talking about:

 

http://twm.co.nz/McTag_field.htm

A bit like finding there is such a thing as The Force in Star Wars. The Field tells the story of respected frontier scientists all over the globe who have produced extraordinary evidence to show that an energy field -The Zero Point Field - connects everything in the universe, and we ourselves are part of this vast dynamic cobweb of energy exchange. 
The Field also reveals a radical new biological paradigm-that on our most fundamental level, the human mind and body are not distinct and separate from their environment, but a packet of pulsating energy constantly interacting with this vast energy sea. 
Here in so-called 'dead' space may lay the key to many of life's processes, from how cells communicate to how organisms actually take shape. The field is responsible for our mind's highest functions - our memory, intuition, creativity. It is the force that finally determines whether we are healthy or ill, the force which must be tapped in order to heal. Original, and well documented with distinguished sources, The Field lifts many areas out of the realm of mystery and into the realm of hard science 
The Field creates a picture of an interconnected universe and a new scientific theory which makes sense of supernatural phenomena. It offers a scientific explanation for many of the most profound human mysteries, from alternative medicine and spiritual healing to extra sensory perception and the collective unconscious. It could even answer some of the big questions: what is human consciousness and what happens when we die. 
The Field follows the life and work of physicists who seem to be on the verge of bringing about the same type of revolution that occurred exactly a century ago when quantum theory changed the face of physics forever. 
The story of their thrilling discovery is a thriller in its own right, involving the CIA, secret Russian testing sites, NASA space programmes and time travel, as a small band of men and women come to grips with the physics of the impossible. Fast-paced and readable like a scientific detective story, The Field is the mind-body book the New Age has been waiting for, the book that will change your entire perception of the way the world works.
Award winning author and indefatigable investigative journalist Lynne McTaggart spent four years researching this area, where science meets the New Age, to create this story of scientific explorers, their groundbreaking work and its controversial implications for mankind. Until now, conservative scientists have done their best to rule 'god' out of their equations. This book shows why the Zero Point Field makes all things possible: all things connected in space and time.
Readers have written that The Field is a book that has changed their lives - their view of the world and their view of the possible. 

New Truths from The Field
What biology tells us

  • The human being is a survival machine largely powered by chemicals and genetic coding. 
  • The brain is a discreet organ and the home of consciousness, which is also largely driven by chemistry – the communication of cells and the coding of DNA. 
  • Man is essentially isolated from his world, and his mind is isolated from his body.
  • Time and space are finite, universal orders.
  • Nothing travels faster than the speed of light.

What The Field has discovered:

  • The communication of the world does not occur in the visible realm of Newton, but in the subatomic world of Werner Heisenberg. 
  • Cells and DNA communicate through frequencies.
  • The brain perceives and makes its own record of the world in pulsating waves.
  • A substructure underpins the universe that is essentially a recording medium of everything, providing a means for everything to communicate with everything else.
  • People are indivisible from their environment.
  • Living consciousness is not an isolated entity. It increases order in the rest of the world.
  • The consciousness of human beings has incredible powers, to heal ourselves, to heal the world – in a sense, to make it as we wish it to be. 

 

Anarchism is the only philosophy which brings to man the consciousness of himself; which maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination. Anarchism is therefore the teacher of the unity of life; not merely in nature, but in man.

Emma Goldman


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BobSpence1 wrote:   Answers

BobSpence1 wrote:

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
Brian, according to certain versions of quantum physics, matter is absolutely not needed for a brain. In fact, there is an exact replica of you sitting in front of an exact replica of your computer, well without going full bore mathematical I can't really provide a proper location but for our purpose let's just call it the edge of the universe.

 

That much having been said, I too have not read the book. However, any book that claims to have proved a non-corporeal brain loose in the world is, at best, invoking some variant of pantheism. On this matter, I simply refuse to “take one for the team”. If someone else want to at least try the first chapter, feel free and let the rest of us know how it works out.

 

Some form of matter is definitely required for a complex, persistent structure such as a brain, which is required to support complex processes and persistent memories.

 

Pure energy cannot do this.

 

That hypothetical 'exact replica' would still be formed of particles of matter, otherwise it would be meaningless to call it an 'exact replica'. And even so, it is wrong to say such a replica actually does exist. All QM would say is that there is a non-zero probability of such a thing.

 

In fact, an exact replica would be extremely unlikely compared to all the various merely 'similar' entities, and even those would be far less probable than all the 'possible' rough approximations, and so on.

 

Um BobSpence1, whether you are aware of it or not, you just required the universe to have an infinite temperature. That doesn't really work out so well.

 

Please check arXiv for the name “Leonard Susskind”.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
Brian, according to certain versions of quantum physics, matter is absolutely not needed for a brain. In fact, there is an exact replica of you sitting in front of an exact replica of your computer, well without going full bore mathematical I can't really provide a proper location but for our purpose let's just call it the edge of the universe.

 

That much having been said, I too have not read the book. However, any book that claims to have proved a non-corporeal brain loose in the world is, at best, invoking some variant of pantheism. On this matter, I simply refuse to “take one for the team”. If someone else want to at least try the first chapter, feel free and let the rest of us know how it works out.

 

Some form of matter is definitely required for a complex, persistent structure such as a brain, which is required to support complex processes and persistent memories.

 

Pure energy cannot do this.

 

That hypothetical 'exact replica' would still be formed of particles of matter, otherwise it would be meaningless to call it an 'exact replica'. And even so, it is wrong to say such a replica actually does exist. All QM would say is that there is a non-zero probability of such a thing.

 

In fact, an exact replica would be extremely unlikely compared to all the various merely 'similar' entities, and even those would be far less probable than all the 'possible' rough approximations, and so on.

 

Um BobSpence1, whether you are aware of it or not, you just required the universe to have an infinite temperature. That doesn't really work out so well.

 

Please check arXiv for the name “Leonard Susskind”.

 

I assumed initially you were referring to some variation of the 'Boltzman Brain' scenario, but after a quick check into Susskind I realized it was that other idea, that all the information describing objects 'within' the Universe is somehow encoded hologram-wise on some 'surface', in an analogy to the way it is now envisaged that the information associated with stuff falling into a black hole is retained at the event horizon, thus resolving the paradox proposed by Hawing that information could be permanently lost to a black hole.

It is extremely misleading to refer to that information as an 'exact replica'. In any case it is irrelevant to my point, that brains can only be encoded in matter, rather than 'immaterial' stuff, such as energy, which cannot retain or encode structure in a form allowing complex processes to proceed. I was referring to this aspect of matter, regardless of how or where the Universe encodes the information describing the current location and momentum of each particle of matter, which is what 'information' in physics refers to, I think.

I need to read up a bit more on the idea before I comment further. I have found an interesting interview with Susskind which I am reading at the moment.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Bob, neither the thread

Bob, neither the thread title nor Brian37's post to which I responded requires textual exactness. However, you post #6 requires the universe to be in a state which is logically precluded.

 

The domain of being automatically correct is reserved for theists. However, if you wish to assert that mind cannot exist apart from matter, then you can do much better than you have. Please tell me much more.

 

Granted, the idea of an exact duplicate can mislead. However, the holographic principal deals with information about the whole universe. Either the exact duplicate has real existence or the holographic principal fails.

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It occurs to me that this

It occurs to me that this can be more interesting. If information is real then there is something that speaks of reality. If information is not real, then that says something else.

 

Here we consider the possible fusion of the program SPICE with a genetic algorithm. So the combined program develops circuits that are patentable. Who gets the IP rights?

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Bob, neither the thread title nor Brian37's post to which I responded requires textual exactness. However, you post #6 requires the universe to be in a state which is logically precluded.

 

The domain of being automatically correct is reserved for theists. However, if you wish to assert that mind cannot exist apart from matter, then you can do much better than you have. Please tell me much more.

 

Granted, the idea of an exact duplicate can mislead. However, the holographic principal deals with information about the whole universe. Either the exact duplicate has real existence or the holographic principal fails.

 

My reading is that there is no 'duplicate' involved in any sense - the information that is contained in that 'surface' is the entity, while what we perceive, including our perception of ourselves, is a kind of projection, a particular manifestation or interpretation of that information. Hence the use of the 'hologram' idea. The 'reality' is the encoded 'holographic plate'.

The first part of my post #6 is in no way contradicted by this hypothesis, which is 'just' another idea of what is the reality behind the 'standard model', in which the the universe is made up of: 'ordinary' matter particles, ie leptons and hadrons, (baryonic matter), plus whatever makes up 'dark matter', plus energy in all its forms, including the particles which mediate the forces (photons, etc).

In the second part of that post was not imagining all those hypothetical versions or copies actually existing simultaneously, just in the now 'traditional' wave-function probability sense, or some variation on the 'many-worlds interpretation'.

I honestly don't see what you are driving at with the 'logically precluded state' comment.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Quote: However, if you wish

Quote:
However, if you wish to assert that mind cannot exist apart from matter, then you can do much better than you have.

All kidding aside Gene, I am genuinely miffed that you'd even use that argument after all this time here.

"Prove that a mind without material cannot exist"

Is the same as:

"Prove to me Allah doesn't exist"

All stemming from the long standing and yet to be debunked "Bertrand Russel's teapot" which explains why this use of logic is flawed.

I really am not trying to upset you or be mean here and you know darn well I like you. But you'd be one of the last people on this board I'd expect to hear this argument from.

OR is it that you agree with us, but think there is a better argument that we are not using?

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Fair enough Brian. Yes, I

Fair enough Brian. Yes, I suspect that there is a better argument to be had. Right now, I am not exactly sure what that may be. However, I do seek to point out where the first argument has flaws. In all honesty, that is only a side point to what bob and I are doing.

 

I poke a hole in what bob says and he tries to fill it. Bob pokes a hole in my stuff and I do the same. Possibly the better argument will eventually obtain. Or not, it really matters very little. The basic point is the discussion.

 

If you go to a theist forum, you will finds lots of posts that only contain the two words “amen brother”. That is the end of any discussion. What we have here is something very different.

 

What about those bits that bob and I agree on? Well, I would suspect that there is a fair amount in that category but you will not see either of us posting on that stuff. Really, where would that go?

 

As far as the point that I am going over with Bobspence that is similar to asking if your reflection in a mirror has anything like real existence. Now the physics that obtains at the edge of the universe must be not the same as what happens in a mirror but some of what you see in a mirror will work out in that domain.

 

 

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AnarchyMell wrote:I dont

AnarchyMell wrote:

I dont know if anyone has ever read the book the Field, but my dad says it is sooo absolutely true.  Anyway, the book says that quantum physics has proved that there is an intelligence in the world.  He still believes that the bible is a load of crap but he insists now that there is an intelligent agent.

So has anyone read the book?  What are your thoughts on quantum physics and if there really has been a proof for intelligent agent.

 

No, just no. Quantum theory proves nothing. There's many interpretations of quantum theory, the one Bob mentioned was just one of them. And I only skimmed but I don't think anyone said this; observation is when a microscopic object interacts with a macroscopic object. There is also the multiverse interpretation in which every possibility is played out via parallel universes. That would actually deny intelligence and consciousness. There are plenty more interpretations to go around, I'd recommend reading the book Quantum Enigma, it explains most of quantum theory and all of it's speculation simply without putting in too much opinion.

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Fuck

 

AnarchyMell wrote:

I was reminded of the quote, "if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics.".

 

What a relief. I 'understand' QT after all.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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AnarchyMell wrote:My dad was

AnarchyMell wrote:

My dad was telling me today that it has been proved, you can put your hand through a wall.  This is all from the book, btw.  Its all because of quantum physics.  I just had to laugh to myself.  I was reminded of the quote, "if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics."

 

You can, you would just be waiting with your hand on the wall, tapping your foot for an unfathomably long time.

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Koopa wrote:AnarchyMell

Koopa wrote:

AnarchyMell wrote:

My dad was telling me today that it has been proved, you can put your hand through a wall.  This is all from the book, btw.  Its all because of quantum physics.  I just had to laugh to myself.  I was reminded of the quote, "if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics."

 

You can, you would just be waiting with your hand on the wall, tapping your foot for an unfathomably long time.

 

If the wall is 1/4 drywall, all it takes is a little tap and you are through. 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Koopa wrote:AnarchyMell

Koopa wrote:

AnarchyMell wrote:

My dad was telling me today that it has been proved, you can put your hand through a wall.  This is all from the book, btw.  Its all because of quantum physics.  I just had to laugh to myself.  I was reminded of the quote, "if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics."

 

You can, you would just be waiting with your hand on the wall, tapping your foot for an unfathomably long time.

Unfortunately, there are many, many far more likely random atomic displacements that would not be so cool, such as only a fraction of the atoms in your hand moving to the other side of the wall.

Or simply much smaller re-arrangements, which because they involve much smaller displacements are far more likely, but more than adequate to leave your hand in total mess.

Those sort of arguments assume without justification that when QM suggests that there is a finite possibility that a sub-atomic particle might find itself on the other side of a barrier, that would apply in similar way to larger discrete objects.

But AFAIK it only applies to the individual particles that the larger object is composed of. From the perspective of QM, an ordinary object is just a collection of loosely connected particles. A tight association of particles is something like a Bose-Einstein Condensation, where the particles do share a quantum state.

So there are all-but-infinitely more ways in which the atoms in your hand could suddenly change position in a totally disordered way than those which keep them in a pattern which still forms something like the original object. The further the spatial movement, the less likely it is, and for them all to move in the same direction by the same amount at the same time is vastly less likely than all the possible events which leave them in a totally disintegrated mess.

EDIT: I should add that such a movement is purely random, and even if it occurred, it would not in anyway be influenced by any intention or 'will' by you that your hand move to the other side of the wall/

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Koopa
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Yeah, that's true, I knew

Yeah, that's true, I knew that... I was just testing you...


BobSpence
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Koopa wrote:Yeah, that's

Koopa wrote:

Yeah, that's true, I knew that... I was just testing you...

Heh, Ok.

What pisses me off is that a lot of people who really should know better make arguments based on the assumption that whole objects could behave like sub-atomic particles and just change position like that, or even that complex objects could just pop into existence spontaneously, without acknowledging that it is far far more likely that totally random crap would happen.

That includes Ludwig Boltzmann, a major figure in the development of Quantum Physics, who proposed the "Boltzman Brain Paradox" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain.

So don't feel bad.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology