Hey, did u know that there is as much evidence for jesus as caesar?

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Hey, did u know that there is as much evidence for jesus as caesar?

Thats what someone told me today. 

 

I told him that hes full of it, but it doesnt matter anyway.  There isnt a plague sweeping the world in his name.

He also said that if jesus didnt exist, why did paul, peter and james died as martyres?  Probably because they are delusional, duh!

Anarchism is the only philosophy which brings to man the consciousness of himself; which maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination. Anarchism is therefore the teacher of the unity of life; not merely in nature, but in man.

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Hm, which Caesar?  There

Hm, which Caesar?  There was more than one, you know.  If you are talking about Julius, we have the whole "Gaul is divided into three parts..." report he wrote.  As well as coins with his image and name on them and lots of other stuff.

Wiki wrote:

Much of Caesar's life is known from his own Commentaries (Commentarii) on his military campaigns, and other contemporary sources such as the letters and speeches of his political rival Cicero, the historical writings of Sallust, and the poetry of Catullus. Many more details of his life are recorded by later historians, such as Appian, Suetonius, Plutarch, Cassius Dio and Strabo.

He was alive from 100 BCE to 44 BCE and look at all the stuff.  What I was telling one of the other people - not only writings by Julius Caesar, but also contemporary writings about him.  Not just people who wrote about him more than 50 years after he supposedly died. 

There are no contemporary writings about a Christ.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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My simple layman's exercise

My simple layman's exercise for historicity is to ask how much of a gap is made in the historical timeline if you treat figure X  as a myth.

In the case of Julius Caesar, the gaps are huge:  Were would have to find alternate explanations for the conquest of Gaul, Rome's civil war, and the end of the Republic.  

I see no such gap created in the case of jesus.  Does anyone else?

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There are writings

There are writings mentioning Jesus that were written in his lifetime rather than decades or centuries later in the same way that there are writings of Julius Caesar that were made within his lifetime?

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
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Way more evidence for caesar than

 

jesus - and if you take the contrived NT out of it, there's virtually no evidence for fluffy boy at all.

 

 

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As a light history buff, I

As a light history buff, I would point out..coinage firstly.

As far as I know jesus was never on a coin, not even a widows mite ><

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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Here is another drachma with

Here is another drachma with his son.

'm still amazed that you can buy these coins on ebay bags at a time cheap, there were so many of them.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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We could be wrong on many

We could be wrong on many aspects of Caesar's life on account of the high rate of error in writing history.  Noone frets if they don't believe in Caesar, it doesn't start wars or damn people to hell.

 

I don't know much about any of the Caesars; the topic doesn't interest me, but I believe what little I know from history books.  With Jesus, it's much more important to consider the evidence, as you might be damned to hell if you're wrong.  We might be willing to accept Caesar's existence and simultaneously reject Jesus', assuming equal levels of evidence, a fact which I think is disputable.

 


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AnarchyMell wrote:There isnt

AnarchyMell wrote:
There isnt a plague sweeping the world in his name.

What a drama queen.


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Coinage was put out at the

Coinage was put out at the onset of a new leader. They melted down the old and coined new ones after the current leader. They didn't wait till later, they were vain and would not have coined a previous persona on the money in that day and age.  Same went for many statues..but they couldn't reuse them and many were destroyed and replaced, normally by different artisans.

Coinage is solid proof imo. Are there any depictions of jesus during his supposed lifetime? Is there anything even written about jesus during his supposed lifetime? From what I read it all came well past his death by 3rd hand witnesses or less.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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jmm wrote:AnarchyMell

jmm wrote:

AnarchyMell wrote:
There isnt a plague sweeping the world in his name.

What a drama queen.

 

But she's not wrong, is she?

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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I get so tired of certain

I get so tired of certain arguments popping up, and this one is one of them.

Jesus exists vs not existing is a bullshit distraction to the bullshit claims of magic.

We know George Washington existed, but no sane person would claim he could fart a Lamborghini out of his ass. No sane person would claim he was born without a second set of DNA or claim he could survive rigor mortis.

The facts are that the "evidence" for the alleged Jesus is second hand hearsay and way after the fact. BUT it wouldn't matter if we suddenly found the bones of "Jesus" and could do genetic testing on them for ID.

No one has ever been born from a virgin. No one can walk on water. No one can turn water into wine. No one can survive rigor mortis. No one can fart a Lamborghini out of their ass.

THIS issue is dead to me and I am not fooled by anyone who brings it up.

We can prove that the city of New York exists, but that doesn't mean Superman is real because we see him in movies flying around that city.

The bible is bullshit myth. It is nothing but an arbitrary gang manual full of fantastic claims whose head character's only goal is to get as many people to kiss his ass under threat.

It would be a laughable book if people didn't treat it as fact. It is quite sad that people can see it for the tribal book of myth it is.

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Abu Lahab wrote:jmm

Abu Lahab wrote:

jmm wrote:

AnarchyMell wrote:
There isnt a plague sweeping the world in his name.

What a drama queen.

 

But she's not wrong, is she?

Yeah, kinda.

You can hate religion all you want, but calling it a plague is a bit of a distortion.


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jmm wrote:Abu Lahab

jmm wrote:

Abu Lahab wrote:

jmm wrote:

AnarchyMell wrote:
There isnt a plague sweeping the world in his name.

What a drama queen.

 

But she's not wrong, is she?

Yeah, kinda.

You can hate religion all you want, but calling it a plague is a bit of a distortion.

The keyword here is "bit" kids, remember that.

When muslims and christians go at it We will see which viral plague is the dominant...one day we will find out the hard way.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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The keyword is 'distortion',

The keyword is 'distortion', actually.

'Bit' was a facetious or ironic understatement, a linguistic devise included to humorously emphasize just how much of a distortion AnarcyMell has created.


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The existence of Jesus is

The existence of Jesus is irrelevant. If someone proved beyond all doubt that he existed so what? It is possible that someone called Jesus fitting his description lived in the period & location that Christianity tells us he did. That doesn't prove he is the son of God or that God exists. All it proves is the existence of a man named Jesus. Egyptian Pharohs for centuries claimed to be Gods. We know they existed, that does not prove they were Gods.


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kierantitheridge wrote:The

kierantitheridge wrote:

The existence of Jesus is irrelevant. If someone proved beyond all doubt that he existed so what? It is possible that someone called Jesus fitting his description lived in the period & location that Christianity tells us he did. That doesn't prove he is the son of God or that God exists. All it proves is the existence of a man named Jesus. Egyptian Pharohs for centuries claimed to be Gods. We know they existed, that does not prove they were Gods.

The "Myth of Jesus" angle kind of distorts the entire point of being a diehard skeptic to begin with: that there is no God, and The Fictitious One™ did not give "his only begotten son". There may be people who claim to be the descendant of some holy, spiritual figure, (or in Robj101's case, to be God themselves) but they are no different then someone selling snake oil, or a faith healer, or even a would-be stigmata bearer.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Question...

jmm wrote:

The keyword is 'distortion', actually.

'Bit' was a facetious or ironic understatement, a linguistic devise included to humorously emphasize just how much of a distortion AnarcyMell has created.


Why are you even posting, to begin with? To call others out whenever you disagree with them? To mock atheists because you disagree with their attitude? To disrupt threads?

In all the time you've posted here, I've yet to see you once attempt some sort of constructive criticism in the least. Not even Mind Over Matter or Epistemologist come off as spiteful as you do. So, you're simply here to piss all over everyone else? Because that's the only thing you seem good at.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao

Kapkao wrote:

kierantitheridge wrote:

The existence of Jesus is irrelevant. If someone proved beyond all doubt that he existed so what? It is possible that someone called Jesus fitting his description lived in the period & location that Christianity tells us he did. That doesn't prove he is the son of God or that God exists. All it proves is the existence of a man named Jesus. Egyptian Pharohs for centuries claimed to be Gods. We know they existed, that does not prove they were Gods.

The "Myth of Jesus" angle kind of distorts the entire point of being a diehard skeptic to begin with: that there is no God, and The Fictitious One™ did not give "his only begotten son". There may be people who claim to be the descendant of some holy, spiritual figure, (or in Robj101's case, to be God themselves) but they are no different then someone selling snake oil, or a faith healer, or even a would-be stigmata bearer.

 

You know, I wouldn't mind being goddess of everything - but I draw the line at stigmata.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:You know, I

cj wrote:
You know, I wouldn't mind being goddess of everything - but I draw the line at stigmata.

Not even some nifty forehead scratches? It would be kind of like wearing a dunce hat, only creepier and way more emo than regular stigmata!

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:cj wrote:You

Kapkao wrote:

cj wrote:
You know, I wouldn't mind being goddess of everything - but I draw the line at stigmata.

Not even some nifty forehead scratches? It would be kind of like wearing a dunce hat, only creepier and way more emo than regular stigmata!

 

 

Want to guess why I don't have tattoos or piercings?  I faint at the sight of blood or needles - especially my own blood and especially if the needle is going to go into me.  No -- no -- <shudder>

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Kapkao wrote:jmm wrote:The

Kapkao wrote:

jmm wrote:

The keyword is 'distortion', actually.

'Bit' was a facetious or ironic understatement, a linguistic devise included to humorously emphasize just how much of a distortion AnarcyMell has created.

 

Why are you even posting, to begin with? To call others out whenever you disagree with them? To mock atheists because you disagree with their attitude? To disrupt threads?

In all the time you've posted here, I've yet to see you once attempt some sort of constructive criticism in the least. Not even Mind Over Matter or Epistemologist come off as spiteful as you do. So, you're simply here to piss all over everyone else? Because that's the only thing you seem good at.

He didn't catch the return sarcasm and I thought it would be obvious when I mentioned "kids"

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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Roman execution order

I cannot remember where or who I heard it from, it has been years, so this probably will not stand up...

I was told that there is proof of a Jesus of Nazareth in a Roman execution order. We all know that when it comes to executions and paperwork the Romans were on top of it. Although, it could be any Jesus. If it would have said: "Jesus Christ" or "Jesus son of Joseph" or "Jesus 'Son of God'" I would have considered it. But, since it was very vague on which Jesus it could have been, to me, just another interesting story.

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comment.

singultus6169 wrote:

I cannot remember where or who I heard it from, it has been years, so this probably will not stand up...

I was told that there is proof of a Jesus of Nazareth in a Roman execution order. We all know that when it comes to executions and paperwork the Romans were on top of it. Although, it could be any Jesus. If it would have said: "Jesus Christ" or "Jesus son of Joseph" or "Jesus 'Son of God'" I would have considered it. But, since it was very vague on which Jesus it could have been, to me, just another interesting story.

 

 

               Yoshua Bar Yushuph was a name so common in Roman Palastine it was an equivalent to John Smith or John Doe in our time. i.e. phony.   Nazareth did NOT exist untill mid-first century any Roman reference to the town would have come long after biblical times.   I have heard of the so called death warrent but no real historian seems to take it serious.

 

 

               If you are to believe the NT, then Pilate and the Roman authoritys washed their hands of the whole affair leaving J.C. in the hands of the temple priests.  In other words the exicution would not show up in the Roman archives, period end of [phony] story.

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Well, I had not heard about

Well, I had not heard about the so called death warrant before. Even with that little, it is not hard to see how unsubstantiated stories spread. One guy tells another. The second guy goes on vacation and attends the church that seems like the closest match from the hotel guide book, then spreads it further and so on.

 

Since this one is being spread by “good christians” who would never lie, it will be accepted at every telling with nobody ever asking the hard questions. If the story happened to be more than a few years old, it has probably gone around the world several times and any given person could have heard it from multiple sources. So it is taken as a “known truth”.

 

That being said, I did google it to see if there actually is an item that any scholar could have seen and more importantly, have responsible scholars seen it?

 

As far as I can tell, it was found in Naples in the 1850's by some guy with a shovel. Not by some guy with an interest in documenting a dig site. It appears to have been written in a sheet of copper in Hebrew. It says on the back side that it is one of twelve copies which were made, one for each of the tribes.

 

Hold on! Why would a Roman record be written in Hebrew? Surely Latin would be used. Or Aramaic? Well, any copies translated into Aramaic would have been intended for the popular audience and then lots of copies would have been made. All that we have is a single copy of what would be a permanent copy of a record. A permanent copy made in the language not of the common people nor of the Empire itself. If there was anything to this, it could only have been a copy of a document that simply did not relate to an official Roman action.

 

Also, if many copies had been made on papyrus, would not the early christians have considered that one document to be worth saving? Heck but they saved every other document which they could get a hold of. Hence the basic reason for the council of Nicaea. They saved way to much stuff and they all had to get together to see if they could agree which bits were, in fact, not relevant to what they were trying to do.

 

So here is the very thing that would seem to prove what they were on about. Turning up for the whole mass of bishops at the very time when they were busy fabricating (read as: Lying about) the actual evidence.

 

Also, I have not found any records of the thing having been put out on display for the public since the initial showing just after it was “found”.

 

Things are just not looking good for this so called document.

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Why would a Roman record be written in Hebrew? Surely Latin would be used. Or Aramaic?

 

in that part of the empire, probably greek.  still, we have no idea how fastidious the romans were with their paperwork, since we possess almost none of it, especially from that part of the world.  i mean, how much could we expect to survive?  they didn't have carbon copies or fire-proof file cabinets, much less computer databases.  the idea a "death warrent" for jesus would survive is patently ridiculous.  in fact, i have yet to see a roman "death warrant" for anybody.  spartacus, anyone?  the gracchi?  the jews at masada?  marius?  i mean, all the real big fish have no extant "death warrants."  fuck...

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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

 

 

               Yoshua Bar Yushuph was a name so common in Roman Palastine it was an equivalent to John Smith or John Doe in our time.

Joshua Bar Joseph?


 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:Jeffrick

Kapkao wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

 

 

               Yoshua Bar Yushuph was a name so common in Roman Palastine it was an equivalent to John Smith or John Doe in our time.

Joshua Bar Joseph?


 

 

 

Simon Bar Sinister?! Smiling

Anarchism is the only philosophy which brings to man the consciousness of himself; which maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination. Anarchism is therefore the teacher of the unity of life; not merely in nature, but in man.

Emma Goldman


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If I were at a bar, I would

If I were at a bar, I would be drinking beer.

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