Let me start by first Stating my beliefs.
Offline I would like to start off by saying, I am of course an atheist, I have been one my whole life, I NEVER ONCE believed that there was a supernatural being that created or cares about interpersonal lives of human beings and keeps a check list of right and wrong doings. Now if you want to add in what was written by previous civilizations, we were on an evolutionary path, until an alien intervention, recorded by the first people to create writing and first recorded history as well as many other things we still use today.
I think that is where atheists fall short in debunking religious criteria. Why, if you going to use historical accounts to debunk Jesus and the non-existence of a supernatural all powerful being, don't you bring into account the intervention of the Anunnaki to the Sumerian civilization? They TELL us how the world was created, which is substantiated by scientific proof.
I just got done watching the debate between this websites organization and the Way of the Master, seen on, I am assuming, ABC sometime in the recent past, which is a direct result of how I came to this site. I noticed that NOTHING was brought up about the Sumerians. Why is this? I would think, if your going to debunk the bible, you HAVE to challenge religious people to where (other than god) this information originated. I mean, why for instance is god vengeful? Why is he many things that can be attributed to human characteristics? An all powerful being, would NOT have these attributes, BUT, an alien race, thought to be god or gods by primitive man, WOULD. They possibly have these attributes and may have passed them on to us. A being with power of time, space, immortality, evolved past the point of human morality. Furthermore, if creating us, why would he instill that into human beings. But. if we were genetically created from an evolving huminoid species on the planet by ET's, that would certainly explain why we have stories of a god that DOES have these characteristics and also why we ourselves have them as well. Do you think pre-humans were walking around concerned about killing and raping before the intervention of thinking man? Do you think lions or other animals on the planet, that do not have this capacity for morality, think they are doing wrong when they kill for food, or kill for territory, or kill for dominence? Of course they don't.
If we take what the Sumerians say as fact, which I DO, then it explains most everything in the process of our evolution and how thinking man came to be on this planet. Do you know why you don't bring this information up when debating? I will tell you why, religious people already think we are nuts, and the skeptics on both sides, will shun away from anything that is outside the norm of conversation. But to get to the truth, WE MUST start to put this information about previous cultures which state alien intervention into our discussions. I mean think about it, where did ancient peoples notions of beliefs in many gods come from? It came from Sumer, at least until we find historical proof of an earlier civilizations recording accounts of the same stories.
I also just listened to a radio broadcast of a debate ( if you want to call it that ) between Kelly and Matt Slick, I would have to say darling, as much as you tried, you got your ass kicked. You did not debate that well and I don't think after listening to it yourself, would disagree. Not once, and I haven't gotten done listening to the whole show, did you say anything about the apostes NOT writing the gospels, which they didn't. Noone who was alive or who knew Jesus, put one word in the New Testament. Yet you never said anything about this too him. WHY? I would think that would have been the first thing to say. I mean, I think thats pretty important that at least one generation past the time of Jesus, were the authors of his teachings. Especially knowing that humans cannot pass one story to another without changing it slightly. Also you didn't mention anything about how the bible has changed MANY times over 2000 years. Nor did you mention this when discussing this topic on ABC with Kirk and Ray. I believe in what you are doing and I support it, but how you come across, comes out in an argumentitive way, without using knowledge to back up what you are saying, or at least NOT ENOUGH knowledge. I mean simple question to ask a religious person, WHY WOULD A BEING OF ENORMOUS POWER care about one planet among an infinite amount of planets? Are humans the only intelligent existing life in the universe? If not, does that mean we will be sharing heaven/hell with other alien beings? Another simple question to ask, if they believe that this life is temporary, and heaven is everlasting bliss, why doesn't every religious person kill themselves so they can be in heaven with god?
I have asked very good questions and made some comments of my own, hopefully I can get some feed back from people on this site as I am new.
A refresher for people not in the know:
Old Testament: Stories that were written by Ancient Sumerians, Babylonians, Akkadians, at least 2000 years before the bible.
Adam
Noah's ark story
Creation
The bible says god created everything approx. 6 thousand years ago, SAME TIME THE SUMERIANS wrote down all of this. Coincidence?
New Testament: Stories written by people of a generation past when Jesus lived. Do you think these stories were not changed to make him divine? Did he exist as a man? Most likely. But he wasn't divine. He was a man, plain and simple. Only after the council of nicea was he depicted in the bible as the son of god. Btw, the stuff that was not accepted in the bible, were stories of alien intervention, thought to be to heretic to be kept in the bible.
Example: The Book of Enoch
Aiden
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Offline I bet you people don't know this. What was the first thing our military force did when we entered Iraq when this war began? Don't know? I will tell you. We went the Iraq historical museum and stole all of there Sumerian artifacts, and I am not talking about the ones on display, I am talking about the ones that they had under lock and key, with guards. Now why would we do that? Answer that question for yourself, but too me, I think its pretty self explanatory.
Hmmm. Interesting, is there any record of this?
Ps: You might want to quit it with the "you people" shit and such comments, you aupologized and "us people" are trying very hard ot give you chance, you don't want to start the slippery slope back to your old ways, right!
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Offline Visual_Paradox wrote:Aidenkai wrote:Now if you want to add in what was written by previous civilizations, we were on an evolutionary path, until an alien intervention, recorded by the first people to create writing and first recorded history as well as many other things we still use today.
The combined circumstances of the environment and genetics of Homonoidea would have resulted in modern Homo sapiens without the intervention of any conscious being, god or otherwise. Any account of human evolution that involves intervention makes assumptions not required by the data and are therefore unparsimonious and inelegant.Aidenkai wrote:I think that is where atheists fall short in debunking religious criteria. Why, if you going to use historical accounts to debunk Jesus and the non-existence of a supernatural all powerful being, don't you bring into account the intervention of the Anunnaki to the Sumerian civilization? They TELL us how the world was created, which is substantiated by scientific proof.
The Sumerians have a creation story, but it does not come close to the truth. Many ancient peoples believed the earth was flat and covered by a solid dome made of wood, rock, or metal. The author of Ezekiel believed it to be made of crystal or ice. The author of Job seemed to believe it was made of metal. The Egyptians believed thunder resulted from a pounding against the metal firmament. Native Americans believed a warrior could tie a thread to an arrow and shoot it at the sky and then climb up the thread. The Sumerians were no different in this regard, mostly sharing the beliefs of the Babylonians who believed that Marduk split Tiamat in half like a shellfish, and from one half made the heavens (cf. Enuma Elish, Tablet IV, Lines 137-138). You cannot say the Sumerians knew how the world came about when they believed the atmosphere was surrounded by a hard shell.Aidenkai wrote:I just got done watching the debate between this websites organization and the Way of the Master, seen on, I am assuming, ABC sometime in the recent past, which is a direct result of how I came to this site. I noticed that NOTHING was brought up about the Sumerians. Why is this? I would think, if your going to debunk the bible, you HAVE to challenge religious people to where (other than god) this information originated. I mean, why for instance is god vengeful? Why is he many things that can be attributed to human characteristics? An all powerful being, would NOT have these attributes, BUT, an alien race, thought to be god or gods by primitive man, WOULD.
An advanced species of extraterrestrials probably would have such emotions, but so would the concepts that result from plain imagination. A consequence of our evolution by natural selection is that we are hard-wired for survival, not for truth. Truth is tangentially related to survival, so we can have some confidence in our perceptions and what-not, but truth-seeking and survival-assurance are not one and the same. The difference is made most clear in our cognitive bias to see intentionality behind things. When we take a walk at night and we hear the rustling of the leaves, our cognitive bias has us jump to the conclusion that there is an animal behind the leaves with an intention of doing us harm. This cognitive bias can easily lead to animism, polytheism, henotheism, and then monotheism. In addition, the unmistakable fact that the world is both good and bad from a perspective of human wellness would easily lend itself to the cognitive bias to effectively clothe these superstitions with good and bad emotions. This explanation of things is more parsimonious and elegant than what you put forward.Aidenkai wrote:They possibly have these attributes and may have passed them on to us.
This assertion is not just inelegant and unparsimonious but a form of anthropocentrism that contradicts established biology. Love, hate, and all of the other basic emotions existed in other animals long before our species came into existence. The only way to avoid the contradiction in what you just said is to have extraterrestrials tinkering with the genetic code of tens of thousands of species to make it appear that animals evolved the basic emotions long before our species came into existence when they actually did not. That would be the New Age equivalent of a fundamentalist Christian trying to undermine the idea of human evolution by arguing that the fossils were planted by Satan. Such an argument cannot be sustained.While I agree with you that many ancient people believed many different things, the Sumerians are set apart from them simply because modern archeology and astronomy and science are now beginning to determine things that the Sumerians told us in there tablets about 6000 years ago. That is what you people are forgetting. I am not claiming this one civilization is right, JUST because they wrote it down (FIRST), they are varifying things today that tell exactly what they knew thousands of years ago. Do you understand what I mean? I hope so. Don't ask, go research it for yourself. I don't have enough time or energy to relay EVERYTHING to you. Knowledge is power, get some. Instead you don't and make fantastic claims. It seems you do know a little bit about the Sumerians, but do you actually know some of the stuff that has been varified and re-learned in today's age that came from them, that I will now say THEY COULD NOT HAVE KNOWN without outside intervention. You put a lot into evolution, but if you look at the neanderthals for instance, they were a much older, and lasted much longer than homo-sapiens, yet in the 400,000 year evolution of the neanderthal did they ever get smart all of the sudden, yet for homo-sapiens, we got smart, in terms of evolution, PRACTICALLY OVERNIGHT! That does not happen, no matter how many theories you want to come up with. Scientists try and come up with and are PAID to come up with theories to justify a terrestrial explanation, because its the norm and people can deal with it, anything outside the box, would never be supported because it doesn't fit the norm of society. People aren't ready to hear that "god" was an alien, that the earth was created because of an alien planet being pulled into our system. This would throw the world into chaos. So it is kept a secret. Wake up.
I bet you people don't know this. What was the first thing our military force did when we entered Iraq when this war began? Don't know? I will tell you. We went the Iraq historical museum and stole all of there Sumerian artifacts, and I am not talking about the ones on display, I am talking about the ones that they had under lock and key, with guards. Now why would we do that? Answer that question for yourself, but too me, I think its pretty self explanatory.
To compare the Sumerians with any other culture of that time, is like comparing our modern technology with those of the tribes around the world that are disconnected from us, people who still live in huts and live like our indian ancestors of 700 years ago. There is no comparison. Sumerians, invented the Wheel. Invented Astronomy. Astrology. Agriculture. Government. Religion. Science. Schools. Roads. The first writing system. The first people to record history. How do you compare them to other cultures? That is idiotic. Nice try though. Much better than " Its All Bullshit" theory that others tried.
Aiden
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Offline Aidenkai wrote:I will agree that I was overally anxious to claim things that despite some people's opinions, I do know this stuff isnt exact 100% proof, I am sorry I claimed that in some of my posts.
Finally!!! Ok now a real conversation can be had.
I think the conversation is coming to an end, not beginning again? I am not sure what more I can say without spending hours upon hours, researching this information again to justify my AAT theories. I will also admit that I have enough knowledge to know know this information is viable in the "where did man come from" discussion, but I myself am still learning. By admitting I am still learning, does not mean, despite what you think, I have no knowledge of this stuff. But I am can only answer your questions to the level of my knowledge, but that doesn't mean its not true, or not out there for you to find out for yourself. I have been posed many questions in regards to things I have brought to this forum, however, like I said, I cannot answer them all, BUT that doesn't mean you won, that means, I don't honestly know, but the answer does exist.
Aiden
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WTF??? Ok you definetly no speaka-englash. I just don't understand you atall, you are either doing this on purpose or you are really spaced out dude. Your just ranting for absolutely no reason. I except your aupology, and ask you 1 question because I found the claim interesting, and this is what you write, this is just wierd!!! I'm just asking and your acting like some frantic and anxious conspiracy theorist, which is all your painting yourself out be. Just calm the f*** down, awnser peoples questions who don't know as much as you on the issue, isn't that what your here for. You know, forget it you'll just write some chicken little message back that had absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. Lata 
who arrived here when an astronaut former king named 
The combined circumstances of the environment and genetics of Homonoidea would have resulted in modern Homo sapiens without the intervention of any conscious being, god or otherwise. Any account of human evolution that involves intervention makes assumptions not required by the data and are therefore unparsimonious and inelegant.
The Sumerians have a creation story, but it does not come close to the truth. Many ancient peoples believed the earth was flat and covered by a solid dome made of wood, rock, or metal. The author of Ezekiel believed it to be made of crystal or ice. The author of Job seemed to believe it was made of metal. The Egyptians believed thunder resulted from a pounding against the metal firmament. Native Americans believed a warrior could tie a thread to an arrow and shoot it at the sky and then climb up the thread. The Sumerians were no different in this regard, mostly sharing the beliefs of the Babylonians who believed that Marduk split Tiamat in half like a shellfish, and from one half made the heavens (cf. Enuma Elish, Tablet IV, Lines 137-138). You cannot say the Sumerians knew how the world came about when they believed the atmosphere was surrounded by a hard shell.
An advanced species of extraterrestrials probably would have such emotions, but so would the concepts that result from plain imagination. A consequence of our evolution by natural selection is that we are hard-wired for survival, not for truth. Truth is tangentially related to survival, so we can have some confidence in our perceptions and what-not, but truth-seeking and survival-assurance are not one and the same. The difference is made most clear in our cognitive bias to see intentionality behind things. When we take a walk at night and we hear the rustling of the leaves, our cognitive bias has us jump to the conclusion that there is an animal behind the leaves with an intention of doing us harm. This cognitive bias can easily lead to animism, polytheism, henotheism, and then monotheism. In addition, the unmistakable fact that the world is both good and bad from a perspective of human wellness would easily lend itself to the cognitive bias to effectively clothe these superstitions with good and bad emotions. This explanation of things is more parsimonious and elegant than what you put forward.
This assertion is not just inelegant and unparsimonious but a form of anthropocentrism that contradicts established biology. Love, hate, and all of the other basic emotions existed in other animals long before our species came into existence. The only way to avoid the contradiction in what you just said is to have extraterrestrials tinkering with the genetic code of tens of thousands of species to make it appear that animals evolved the basic emotions long before our species came into existence when they actually did not. That would be the New Age equivalent of a fundamentalist Christian trying to undermine the idea of human evolution by arguing that the fossils were planted by Satan. Such an argument cannot be sustained.
Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!
Response incoming.
I do know what it takes to be an astronomer. That standard is a bit higher than your example. The last telescope I used was the 300 m Arecibo telescope, not exactly something I could go out and buy.
So you're skeptical that I am what I claim to be. Good! It's good to be skeptical. Now, if I am not an astronomer, you can overwhelm me with your evidence for your claims, and I would have to confess that I don't know enough to discuss it. If I am an astronomer, I will be able to follow the evidence and you will thus be able to convince me you're right. Either way, actually presenting the scientific evidence will be a win for you. If it's any good of course. Also note that my concerns are about astronomy, not about AAT. The astronomical concerns must be addressed before you can even begin to speculate about AAT.
Yeah you claimed that already, and I already asked where the evidence for the claim is. So where is it? What tablets? How were they translated? What details were described? What observations confirmed it?
Seriously? That's an answer in your book? It's the even less specific equivalent of some bible thumper saying "It's in the bible! Read it!" when asked to back something up. I expect more. Where is the answer published? Don't be afraid to reference science books and journals, my university library is pretty awesome.
I thought he'd come back too; I would have taken you up on a bet if you'd said he'd stay away. I think our posts got deleted, though, so I never replied.
However, since we had a miscommunication, maybe you do deserve a consolation prize.
Perhaps we can come to something in terms of immortal souls.
Your apology is accepted, at least by me, and probably most people here.
I understand that. Try not to take it personally.
Yeah, but the thing is that you came out swinging, and attacking several atheists in your first post (namely Brian and Kelly). Their debate with those nutters wasn't perfect, but it was probably largely because they weren't prepared for the curve ball of repeated and blatant rule-breaking on the part of the opposition (most of it ended up being about those rules, and how the Christians kept breaking them).
You can't blatantly attack some of the core founders of a community and not expect a little bit of hostility.
This is a good idea.
Hey! That was under the belt, sir!
Very well said.
While I agree with you that many ancient people believed many different things, the Sumerians are set apart from them simply because modern archeology and astronomy and science are now beginning to determine things that the Sumerians told us in there tablets about 6000 years ago. That is what you people are forgetting. I am not claiming this one civilization is right, JUST because they wrote it down (FIRST), they are varifying things today that tell exactly what they knew thousands of years ago. Do you understand what I mean? I hope so. Don't ask, go research it for yourself. I don't have enough time or energy to relay EVERYTHING to you. Knowledge is power, get some. Instead you don't and make fantastic claims. It seems you do know a little bit about the Sumerians, but do you actually know some of the stuff that has been varified and re-learned in today's age that came from them, that I will now say THEY COULD NOT HAVE KNOWN without outside intervention. You put a lot into evolution, but if you look at the neanderthals for instance, they were a much older, and lasted much longer than homo-sapiens, yet in the 400,000 year evolution of the neanderthal did they ever get smart all of the sudden, yet for homo-sapiens, we got smart, in terms of evolution, PRACTICALLY OVERNIGHT! That does not happen, no matter how many theories you want to come up with. Scientists try and come up with and are PAID to come up with theories to justify a terrestrial explanation, because its the norm and people can deal with it, anything outside the box, would never be supported because it doesn't fit the norm of society. People aren't ready to hear that "god" was an alien, that the earth was created because of an alien planet being pulled into our system. This would throw the world into chaos. So it is kept a secret. Wake up.
I bet you people don't know this. What was the first thing our military force did when we entered Iraq when this war began? Don't know? I will tell you. We went the Iraq historical museum and stole all of there Sumerian artifacts, and I am not talking about the ones on display, I am talking about the ones that they had under lock and key, with guards. Now why would we do that? Answer that question for yourself, but too me, I think its pretty self explanatory.
To compare the Sumerians with any other culture of that time, is like comparing our modern technology with those of the tribes around the world that are disconnected from us, people who still live in huts and live like our indian ancestors of 700 years ago. There is no comparison. Sumerians, invented the Wheel. Invented Astronomy. Astrology. Agriculture. Government. Religion. Science. Schools. Roads. The first writing system. The first people to record history. How do you compare them to other cultures? That is idiotic. Nice try though. Much better than " Its All Bullshit" theory that others tried.
Aiden
Finally!!! Ok now a real conversation can be had.