How young is too young?

Cpt_pineapple
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How young is too young?

So I came across this video of I think about 8 or 10 year old girls dancing to Beyonce's "Single Ladies"

 

So is this really appropriate for their age group?

 

How have the standards changed so dramatically when I was young [I'm 24 BTW]?

 

 

So here's the vid

 

 

 

 

 

 


B166ER
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My only problem...

First off, I have no interest in watching the video (I hate pop music), so this isn't necessarily about the video itself. That said, I don't disagree with people teaching children about sex or their sexuality (since even children are sexual creatures), I think it's important, but I hate it when children are taught to objectify themselves for others. My problem isn't the sexuality, my problem lies with the objectification of human beings, especially children who are still forming their thought processes.

Children should be taught about the wonders of animal sexuality and its consequences, not how to become little more then a blow up doll to be used by others for their cheep thrills. Especially when that objectification is sold to them as what "being an adult" is all about. But all this comes from being raised by feminists, I guess...

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
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And, what about THIS?

Robb


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By the way, if I were the

By the way, if I were the parent of ANY of these girls, the people responsible would likely be up on child pornography charges. 

Totally inappropriate and IRresponsible even in these "liberal" times.

 

Robb

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B166ER wrote:[...]children

B166ER wrote:

[...]children are sexual creatures[...]

 

We are sexually reproducing organisms, but children, by nature, are not "sexual" yet- that's why they're children.  That said, people do mature sexually at different ages.  There are girls who are eleven who look like twenty year-olds (although rare); so, probably not children anymore.

That said, there's probably no harm in it if it's not put to use... as disturbing as it may be to see.  If it is socially accepted, they won't feel shamed by it... so, it probably won't have anything approaching an objectively negative effect.

 

To me, 'too young' to overtly express one's sexuality is pre-pubescent.  If they've physically matured, it's not really disturbing- but before that, I find it rather creepy.  Maybe I'm just a prude.  I don't think it should be illegal or anything, although perhaps not so encouraged. 

 

That's not to say that they should be having sex when they've matured, of course- I don't think most 25 year olds should be (again, I'm probably a prude compared to most here).  When the line is crossed between just showing off (whether there's anything to show or not) and engaging in sexual intercourse, that's a very different matter.

 

 


cj
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lighten up

Are the young girls being exploited?  No.  They have permission from their parents or guardians to perform that way to that number.  They are not being paid for having sex or for dancing.  They are not learning anything they won't learn elsewhere.  Are they too young to learn that?  What - that you can be sexy and cute and if some guy likes it he better offer a long term relationship before anything else?  And the costumes are no skimpier than most swim suits.

The baby - babies do the bounce along to music as soon as they can stand up.  That it was to Beyonce - that was the mom's sense of humor.  The baby didn't know and didn't care, s/he was just responding to the beat.

But then, I let my kids watch the original "Heavy Metal" when they were young.  And you know, they didn't grow up to be sexual predators.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Cpt_pineapple wrote:How have

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

How have the standards changed so dramatically when I was young [I'm 24 BTW]?

 

I  don't think that the standards have changed so dramatically. I think that your level of exposure to dancing is all that has changed.

 

GodlessMonk wrote:

 

By the way, if I were the parent of ANY of these girls, the people responsible would likely be up on child pornography charges.

How is this child pornography?

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: So I

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

So I came across this video of I think about 8 or 10 year old girls dancing to Beyonce's "Single Ladies"

 

So is this really appropriate for their age group?

Not really, I don't know that it is actually bad either though. But then again Iv seen a video where 5 year olds are grinding and doing far worse than in your video. I cannot find it on youtube, I suspect it was deleted because of how inapropriate it is. but that is neither here nor there.

 

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

How have the standards changed so dramatically when I was young [I'm 24 BTW]?

Im not much younger than you so I cannot say for sure as I don't remember. But I but I would say yes (if indeed it wasn't like this when I was younger), my friend has a 10 year old sister, all her friends (her included) do this all day. Its rather funny to watch, also kinda weird, not sure I want to see 10 year old girls dancing like that.

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Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
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No animal shall sleep in a bed.
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I would have to disagree Blake

Blake wrote:
We are sexually reproducing organisms, but children, by nature, are not "sexual" yet- that's why they're children.

How much time have you spent around little children Blake? I was a full time (12 hours a day, 5 days a week) babysitter for my niece from her birth when I was 12 to when I was 18. I also helped raise my ex-girlfriend's son Loki for over a year and a half. Whenever any of my friends need childcare for their kids, they get in touch with me, since it's easy for me to act like a goofball and have fun and the kids love it. So I can tell you a little about kids from experience.

I can tell you that they are sexual creatures since every chance they got, their hands were down their pants. So many times changing diapers it ended up with me just trying to keep them from playing with themselves so they didn't make a mess everywhere. I would also find them grinding on whatever they could find, looking like they were having one hell of a good time, and always pissed at me when I told them to knock it off and not to do it around other people. I have seen it with most of the kids I have taken care of through the years. Don't even get me started on kids in groups...

Hell, I even remember seeing attractive women as a pre-pubesent and feeling what I now know to be arousal. 

If that's not a sign of being a sexual creature, I don't know what is.

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
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Who are you, the preacher

Who are you, the preacher from Footloose?


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I'm going to masturbate now.

I'm going to masturbate now. Anyone have a problem with that?


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ShadowOfMan wrote:I'm going

ShadowOfMan wrote:
I'm going to masturbate now. Anyone have a problem with that?

Why publicize it? Just do it like everyone else did.

This is how I think it happened though. Cpt_pineapple was in her apartment sitting in a bucket of ice-water reading the Oxford English Dictionary when she got to the D's so she logged onto the internet to find out what dancing looks like in this century.

Oh, if we could only go back she thought. To a simpler time, a mere twenty years would suffice. Back to when the Foxtrot, the Tango and the Charleston were at the height of their popularity.

It's hard to argue though when I see dancing like that. I myself have wondered at times if a plague of madness hasn't swept over us all. Young girls dancing. Moving their bodies when their bodies should clearly be stationary and covered with some sort of heavy fabric, possibly burlap.

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B166ER wrote:not how to

B166ER wrote:

not how to become little more then a blow up doll to be used by others for their cheep thrills. Especially when that objectification is sold to them as what "being an adult" is all about.

Only real response i can give to that... (stupid embeds! work damnit!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJxaWLNRz-k

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B166ER wrote:Hell, I even

B166ER wrote:

Hell, I even remember seeing attractive women as a pre-pubesent and feeling what I now know to be arousal. 

If that's not a sign of being a sexual creature, I don't know what is.

 

Sexual arousal is, but I suspect you are projecting a bit into your memory.  It depends, of course, on how old you were (puberty can start pretty young).

Of course kids touch their privates all of the time; that doesn't make it a sexual act, so much as a thoughtlessly self-pleasing action.  There are nerve endings there; that doesn't mean that they have sex drives and attraction to the opposite sex at that age.  It doesn't mean that they want sex- saying so really sounds like the rationalizations of a pedophile (I'm not accusing you of being one, but bear in mind how creepy that is).

 

It's quite likely that I've been around kids just as much as you have.  I had two baby brothers I often had to take care of as a teenager, and I can remember distinctly the strange things they did, and I've taken care of younger girls as well- not to mentioned having been a teacher in various classes of 6 - 12 year-olds off and on, and tutoring children periodically throughout my life.

I've been exposed to children; I've seen nothing to indicate to me that they are by definition "sexual".  Yes, they emulate.  Yes, they usually touch themselves in odd ways.  Yes, some display behavior more strongly than others, and I've known young boys who definitely has sex drives at abnormal ages, but on average, children are not sexual creatures.


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The Doomed Soul wrote:B166ER

The Doomed Soul wrote:

B166ER wrote:

not how to become little more then a blow up doll to be used by others for their cheep thrills. Especially when that objectification is sold to them as what "being an adult" is all about.

Only real response i can give to that... (stupid embeds! work damnit!)

 

You mean like this:

 

 

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Dude...

Blake wrote:
Sexual arousal is, but I suspect you are projecting a bit into your memory.

I don't know about you, but even as a kid I was attracted to good looking ladies and I can give it no other name but sexual arousal. Even before I hit puberty, my buddy Roy and I would steal his Grandfather's stash of Playboy's. I can remember getting feelings that I didn't understand then, but to say that they were not sexual is a bit of a stretch.

Blake wrote:
There are nerve endings there; that doesn't mean that they have sex drives and attraction to the opposite sex at that age.

Either you were (are) a prude or I was (am) a randy little kid (man). I don't know, maybe I was the aberrant trying to spend my time with the ladies, but I remember continually hitting on my 3rd grade teacher (man she was a FOX!). She even had to tell me after class one day that she had a husband and that, while my attempts were funny (not her words, but the truth), they had no chance of succeeding. I might not have known all the specifics, but I knew I got butterflies being around her. I got the same feelings around her that I have throughout life when attracted to people. If that's not sexual arousal, I don't know what is.

Maybe I was, and still am, a randy mofo. I guess it's just me...

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


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How interesting this video

How interesting this video is.  These girls, ... they are "fu@#$g miracles".  Sorry, I feel I will be under a very strong impression of this "fucking magnets" song for another week or so.  

I am sure you know cheerleading competitions.  Are they really different from this video???

 

 


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B166ER wrote:I don't know

B166ER wrote:

I don't know about you, but even as a kid I was attracted to good looking ladies and I can give it no other name but sexual arousal. Even before I hit puberty, my buddy Roy and I would steal his Grandfather's stash of Playboy's. I can remember getting feelings that I didn't understand then, but to say that they were not sexual is a bit of a stretch.

 

That's just it; I don't think that was before you hit puberty, I believe those very feelings indicate the earliest stages of the onset.

Maybe we're thinking of 'kid' a bit different here; I use it variably myself.  To me, those who have started on puberty are becoming adolescents, who are very much sexual (or at least in the process of learning to be so).

I said it starts sooner or later in different people; maybe you're an early bloomer.

 

Quote:
Either you were (are) a prude or I was (am) a randy little kid (man). I don't know, maybe I was the aberrant trying to spend my time with the ladies, but I remember continually hitting on my 3rd grade teacher (man she was a FOX!).

Probably a bit of both.

Third grade is usually 8 - 9 years old.  That right around the very beginning of puberty for early bloomers (average for boys would be around twelve, but they may feel some vague sexual feelings a bit earlier than that).  I don't know that I would call that a fully conscious sexuality for even the earliest bloomers, but it's possible.

Once a child is randy, I'd tend to say said child has entered into adolescence, and is no longer strictly a child (though still not yet an adult).


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I believe the appropriate

I believe the appropriate term is prostitots and it's gross. I'm a big fan of free speech and the idea that nothing is shocking, but this kind of thing definitely goes too far.

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cj wrote:Are the young girls

cj wrote:

Are the young girls being exploited?  No.  They have permission from their parents or guardians to perform that way to that number.  They are not being paid for having sex or for dancing.  They are not learning anything they won't learn elsewhere.  Are they too young to learn that?  What - that you can be sexy and cute and if some guy likes it he better offer a long term relationship before anything else?  And the costumes are no skimpier than most swim suits.

That's the other side of the coin. I think there's an instinctual reaction especially among males to control the gene pool. It's reflected throughout history and the rest of the animal kingdom. It's the reason men can be promiscuous but women can't. It's the reason so many fathers are protective and suspicious of the men their daughters get involved with.

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.


B166ER
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I know 100%, I know...

100percentAtheist wrote:
These girls, ... they are "fu@#$g miracles".  Sorry, I feel I will be under a very strong impression of this "fucking magnets" song for another week or so.  

Fuckin' RAINBOWS, man!

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


100percentAtheist
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B166ER

B166ER wrote:

100percentAtheist wrote:
These girls, ... they are "fu@#$g miracles".  Sorry, I feel I will be under a very strong impression of this "fucking magnets" song for another week or so.  

Fuckin' RAINBOWS, man!

 

F#$K.  I happened to be a "f...g scientist" teaching kids PRECISELY about f....g magnets and f...g rainbows!

So, I take it personal....    

 


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 Holy shit, i was

 Holy shit, i was personally more impressed with how fucking good they were at dancing. Maybe a bit young to be wearing the outfits but the dancing was legit im impressed

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Renee Obsidianwords
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Here are my

Here are my thoughts:

Currently, kids appear to me to be growing up a bit fast. With the technology available to them, they are always tuned in, up to date on the newest songs, fashion. I believe the younger kids are exposed to what every other teenager is ~ so there are 8-10 y/o's running around trying to be a teenager. Personally, I don't remember wanting to be a teen until I turned 12...then 13 couldn't come quick enough.

Whether the dancing to that song is appropriate, well, I bet the kids dancing love that song. I would bet that they already knew all of the words and could name every song on the album. I don't have kids so I am unsure on how these things work but wouldn't the parents have approved the routine and the music...

Now, for me the dancing was just...dancing ~ if you want to see something that turns my stomach check out toddlers and tiaras:

http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/toddlers-tiaras-lindsays-mom.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRZyzccF02I

 

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Renee Obsidianwords

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

Here are my thoughts:

Currently, kids appear to me to be growing up a bit fast. With the technology available to them, they are always tuned in, up to date on the newest songs, fashion. I believe the younger kids are exposed to what every other teenager is ~ so there are 8-10 y/o's running around trying to be a teenager. Personally, I don't remember wanting to be a teen until I turned 12...then 13 couldn't come quick enough.

Whether the dancing to that song is appropriate, well, I bet the kids dancing love that song. I would bet that they already knew all of the words and could name every song on the album. I don't have kids so I am unsure on how these things work but wouldn't the parents have approved the routine and the music...

Now, for me the dancing was just...dancing ~ if you want to see something that turns my stomach check out toddlers and tiaras:

http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/toddlers-tiaras-lindsays-mom.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRZyzccF02I

 

 

Yes, the parents/guardians have to give permission for the dance, costumes, and appearing on stage in front of an audience.  And since it looked to me like the girls had some serious coaching, the parents were paying for dance lessons.

I agree with you that pageants are - particularly for toddlers - are disgusting.  Even the big girls are over the top any more.  You can't win if you haven't had many thousands of dollars worth of plastic surgery any more.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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nutxaq wrote: That's the

nutxaq wrote:

That's the other side of the coin. I think there's an instinctual reaction especially among males to control the gene pool. It's reflected throughout history and the rest of the animal kingdom. It's the reason men can be promiscuous but women can't. It's the reason so many fathers are protective and suspicious of the men their daughters get involved with.

 

I don't think it is instinctual, I think it is inheritance combined with patriarchal societies.  If inheritance is through the male line, father to son, then control of women's sexuality becomes of prime importance to the men.

Mother's brother was the model for matriarchal societies.  That is where your maternal uncle is the one you inherit from.  After all, he didn't know if his wife's kids were his own and he certainly didn't control his wife, but he knew his sister's children were definitely related to him.

Anymore, it is all bull pucky.  If you are twisted, have everyone DNA tested.  You, your spouse, and the children.

My only concern with this is the number of perverts on the internet who might be viewing videos like this and getting off on them.  Yuck.  But I don't have control over them, either.  And if not this, there are other videos - some a lot worse - floating around for their entertainment.  There is a law suit right now where a woman who was featured as a child in a video that is still making the rounds.  She is suing her abuser for damages.  Haven't heard how it is going, but I hope she gets everything he owns plus some.

These girls, I'll bet they have copies made and proudly show them off every chance they get.  They are obviously very proud of their routine.  It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Personally I find it to be

Personally I find it to be innapropriate, but it's a grey I wouldn't really voice at other parents who have no problem with it, in the end it's their choice.  I personally would find this embaressing if this was my daughter, I certainly wouldn't approve.  I would do everything I could to have my daughter conduct herself in a ladylike manner.  Never become dellusional about her maturing sexuality, but 9-10 years old I find is to young to be wearing scantily clad clothing and air humping. 


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cj wrote:It has always been

cj wrote:
It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

 

This also needs to be made into a shirt and/or button.


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I consider myself fortunate

I consider myself fortunate in that my pathetic, ungraceful decent into middle age, and its acompanying midlife crisis hasn't caused me to chase younger women...  My wife is in her mid 40's, and more beautiful to me than the day we met...

I have an aquaintence who is a celebrity, with A LOT of money, and about my age ...and he only keeps 18-20 year old girls who are built like tiawaneese boys  around as "arm candy"... Ironically, as a comedian...he is unaware of the fact that he's not in on his own punch line...and that peple make fun of his sad grasp at youth constantly... Frankly, its Creepy as hell...

Maybe I'm lucky to be attracted to women my age...  In my lifestyle and my vocation, I have the opportunity to keep company with a variety of different women... consistently I find myself attracted to Women... not girls, and the confidence and empowerment that accords experience... To put it bluntly... Yeah, the 20 year olds look good... but they are 20... they are *suppossed* to loook good...when a 40 year old is working a room... its a totally different, and utterly sexy dynamic to me... I wouold much rather walk into a room with Diane Lane on my arm than some 20 year old Pop star...

But thats just me....

Then there is the whole "unerage" thing... which is contemptible, and impossible to defend.... Here is a youtube video i did a couple of years ago about one such infamous scumbag:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpBvzZE7WX4

 


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EXACTLY!!!

cj wrote:
It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

EXACTLY!!! I couldn't have said it better myself!

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


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Blake wrote:cj wrote:It has

Blake wrote:

cj wrote:
It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

 

This also needs to be made into a shirt and/or button.

no this is absolutely bullshit. I sure as shit didn't feel exploited when i was a believer but now that i've deconverted i feel as if my mind was manipulated and violated by the religious to serve their own agenda. You can still be exploited without realizing it. 

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liberatedatheist wrote:Blake

liberatedatheist wrote:

Blake wrote:

cj wrote:
It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

 

This also needs to be made into a shirt and/or button.

no this is absolutely bullshit. I sure as shit didn't feel exploited when i was a believer but now that i've deconverted i feel as if my mind was manipulated and violated by the religious to serve their own agenda. You can still be exploited without realizing it. 


You seem to be interpreting it as though they must feel exploited in the moment the exploitation is occurring-  I don't think there was a time limit on her statement.

 

Somebody who passed out drunk, and was raped and videotaped while unconscious obviously didn't feel exploited at that time- but when the person becomes aware of it, he or she may feel exploited.

You were intellectually unconscious while Christian (or whatever you were)- now that you have woken up, you can realize that you were exploited.

 

These girls are in a cultural zeitgeist that finds this acceptable- unless they become Muslim suddenly one day, it is very likely that they will never feel exploited.  Obviously we can only take into account the most likely future when considering if they will ultimately feel that they were exploited.


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Blake wrote:liberatedatheist

Blake wrote:

liberatedatheist wrote:

Blake wrote:

cj wrote:
It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

 

This also needs to be made into a shirt and/or button.

no this is absolutely bullshit. I sure as shit didn't feel exploited when i was a believer but now that i've deconverted i feel as if my mind was manipulated and violated by the religious to serve their own agenda. You can still be exploited without realizing it. 


 

You seem to be interpreting it as though they must feel exploited in the moment the exploitation is occurring-  I don't think there was a time limit on her statement.

 

Somebody who passed out drunk, and was raped and videotaped while unconscious obviously didn't feel exploited at that time- but when the person becomes aware of it, he or she may feel exploited.

You were intellectually unconscious while Christian (or whatever you were)- now that you have woken up, you can realize that you were exploited.

 

These girls are in a cultural zeitgeist that finds this acceptable- unless they become Muslim suddenly one day, it is very likely that they will never feel exploited.  Obviously we can only take into account the most likely future when considering if they will ultimately feel that they were exploited.

woops


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liberatedatheist wrote:

liberatedatheist wrote:

Blake wrote:

cj wrote:
It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

 

This also needs to be made into a shirt and/or button.

no this is absolutely bullshit. I sure as shit didn't feel exploited when i was a believer but now that i've deconverted i feel as if my mind was manipulated and violated by the religious to serve their own agenda. You can still be exploited without realizing it. 

 

I understand your anger.  And I understand people who are angry about other acts after the fact.  Such as Blake's example of one of the girls growing up to become Muslim or some other strict religion.   

You guys make me think. 

So, there are a number of scenarios:

You don't feel exploited then, now or in the future.

You didn't feel exploited then, and you do now, but not in the future.

You didn't feel exploited then, and you don't now, but you do in the future.

And so on.  Some are more probable than others.

For the young woman who gets drunk, gang raped, and wakes up feeling exploited - as well as sore - I can only tell her, "gee honey, next time don't get wasted."  That doesn't make the gang rape okay and I have no problem with the rapers being prosecuted.  But chickie really should take better care of herself.

That is not the same as being exploited emotionally or intellectually or exploited as a child.  (Teens are still children for this discussion.  Studies have shown their brains are not fully developed, particularly in the decision making process.)  And there are degrees of exploitation.  It is not the same if you are made to kiss auntie's cheek or if you are made to attend church every Sunday or if you are made to participate in a pornographic video as a child.

Socially, some exploitation of children is acceptable.  Kissing auntie and going to Sunday school is generally considered things a child should do.  I don't think so, but generally, most people do.  Other exploitations are considered - rightfully - illegal.  I can't fix society for you today.  I am afraid we will all have to live with it for now. 

When the child grows up, she may realize she was being exploited.  Her response will depend on the nature of the exploitation.  For the girls in the video, the dancing was legal, her parents consented, and it looked like all the girls were having fun.  If one of them decides later participating was wrong, she will just have to ensure she doesn't participate in those types of activities again.  She may also decide not to let her children participate.  She would most likely not have a leg to stand on if she decides to sue her parents, the dance troupe or the organization who sponsored the dance.  If it had been an illegal activity, I'm sure we would all support her right to prosecute as an adult.

For adults, all I can go with is consensual is consensual is consensual.  If you consent, you are not being exploited.  If you decide later you were lied to, emotionally blackmailed, exploited, then that doesn't change the fact that it was consensual at the time.  It is okay to be angry about it, okay to vow never to let it happen to you again, okay to take care of yourself after the fact.  It is not okay to sue or prosecute someone for something you agreed to at the time.

When you were christian, would you have welcomed someone coming to you and attempting to "deprogram" you?  Probably not.  Release it, let it go.  "All suffering is caused by clinging."

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Blake wrote:liberatedatheist

Blake wrote:

liberatedatheist wrote:

Blake wrote:

cj wrote:
It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

 

This also needs to be made into a shirt and/or button.

no this is absolutely bullshit. I sure as shit didn't feel exploited when i was a believer but now that i've deconverted i feel as if my mind was manipulated and violated by the religious to serve their own agenda. You can still be exploited without realizing it. 

 

You seem to be interpreting it as though they must feel exploited in the moment the exploitation is occurring-  I don't think there was a time limit on her statement.

 

Somebody who passed out drunk, and was raped and videotaped while unconscious obviously didn't feel exploited at that time- but when the person becomes aware of it, he or she may feel exploited.

You were intellectually unconscious while Christian (or whatever you were)- now that you have woken up, you can realize that you were exploited.

 

These girls are in a cultural zeitgeist that finds this acceptable- unless they become Muslim suddenly one day, it is very likely that they will never feel exploited.  Obviously we can only take into account the most likely future when considering if they will ultimately feel that they were exploited.

So if i died happy and a fundy the church never exploited me? That is complete bull. A girl who was raped even if she was passed out and never found out that she had been raped was still used. If there is a force that is controlling my actions, such as religious indoctrination, i dont have to be conscious of it for it to severely limit my freedom. to brush off exploitation as no big deal because the person doesn't realize their condition is to be complicit in a form of mental slavery. I cant see how any value system would judge that as being alright.

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liberatedatheist wrote:A

liberatedatheist wrote:

A girl who was raped even if she was passed out and never found out that she had been raped was still used. 

???  I guess, we can ask girls... but something (perhaps something completely irrational Smiling ) tells me that if I were a raped girl, I would find it out quite soon after waking up.... no clothes, sperm everywhere, unwanted pregnancy ... well maybe if I were a fanatically believing girl, I would possibly think that a god or a jesus has done this to me. Smiling


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100percentAtheist

100percentAtheist wrote:

liberatedatheist wrote:

A girl who was raped even if she was passed out and never found out that she had been raped was still used. 

???  I guess, we can ask girls... but something (perhaps something completely irrational Smiling ) tells me that if I were a raped girl, I would find it out quite soon after waking up.... no clothes, sperm everywhere, unwanted pregnancy ... well maybe if I were a fanatically believing girl, I would possibly think that a god or a jesus has done this to me. Smiling

 

Sorry, I can not imagine this.  I am a child of the sixties, and I spent time doing my fair share of screwing around.  I did not do drugs and I have never drank enough alcohol to black out.  I once had alcohol poisoning for three straight days but I still remember every minute of that very embarrassing date.  Into the second day of puking, I seriously thought dying would be a relief.  The date rape drug did not yet exist and it wasn't necessary anyway - never mind.

Anyway I can not imagine being so out of it I wouldn't notice what was happening.  And I know what it is like to wake up and really live the experience of coyote ugly.  Was I exploited?  Meh.  I knew the consequences and I did it anyway. 

Not every woman feels the same way I do.  But I am just as unsympathetic about them as I am about myself.  I would feel more sympathy for the person raped in their own bed than for someone who plays with fire and gets burnt.

Seriously, LiberatedAtheist, if I had tried to deprogram you while you were a believing soul, wouldn't you have been upset and angry with me?  Trying to force you to give up christianity would to my thinking be another form of mind slavery and just as exploitative as any preacher.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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liberatedatheist wrote:So if

liberatedatheist wrote:

So if i died happy and a fundy the church never exploited me? That is complete bull. A girl who was raped even if she was passed out and never found out that she had been raped was still used. If there is a force that is controlling my actions, such as religious indoctrination, i dont have to be conscious of it for it to severely limit my freedom. to brush off exploitation as no big deal because the person doesn't realize their condition is to be complicit in a form of mental slavery. I cant see how any value system would judge that as being alright.

 

 

Exploitation has two meanings.

1. Use of any kind.

-This is a less common, and more outdated usage

 

2. Selfish use; e.g. that which hurts another and benefits oneself

-Under this definition, if it doesn't hurt the other person, it's not exploitation.

 

In a hypothetical situation where a girl is raped while unconscious without being harmed, and doesn't catch any diseases or get pregnant, has she really been hurt?

 

That's a philosophical question of whether it's true that "what you don't know can't hurt you"- we could have that argument if you want.

 

Harm is a very subjective qualification, and the most important opinion of that harm is the one upon whom the harm may be falling.


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B166ER wrote: First off, I

B166ER wrote:

First off, I have no interest in watching the video (I hate pop music), so this isn't necessarily about the video itself. That said, I don't disagree with people teaching children about sex or their sexuality (since even children are sexual creatures), I think it's important, but I hate it when children are taught to objectify themselves for others. My problem isn't the sexuality, my problem lies with the objectification of human beings, especially children who are still forming their thought processes.

Children should be taught about the wonders of animal sexuality and its consequences, not how to become little more then a blow up doll to be used by others for their cheep thrills. Especially when that objectification is sold to them as what "being an adult" is all about. But all this comes from being raised by feminists, I guess...

George Orwell, 1984 wrote:
Winston Smith: I know you'll fail. Something in this world... some spirit you will never overcome...

O'Brien: What is it, this principle?

Winston Smith: I don't know. The spirit of man.

O'Brien: And do you consider yourself a man?

Winston Smith: Yes.

O'Brien: If you're a man, Winston, you're the last man. Your kind is extinct. We are the inheritors. Do you realize that you are alone? You are outside history. You unexist. Get up. [Winston gets up and O'Brien shows him his reflection in a mirror. Winston is disheveled and beaten] *That* is the last man. If you are human, *that* is humanity.[O'brien yanks one of Winston's teeth out of his scurvy'ed jaw, to drive his point home.]

My point being is that if a child out there is raised amongst seemed limitless hypocrisy and double-standards/double-think (as I was) between them and their so-called "authority figures" of their youth and if they have a spec of observational thinking to them, they will realize that they are just another link in the chain, another cog in the wheel, or a singular, insignificant mote in the steaming heap of excrement known as Modern Humanity.  (as I did by mid-to-late adolescence)


 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Stop creating victims purely out of your imagination

liberatedatheist wrote:

So if i died happy and a fundy the church never exploited me? That is complete bull. A girl who was raped even if she was passed out and never found out that she had been raped was still used. If there is a force that is controlling my actions, such as religious indoctrination, i dont have to be conscious of it for it to severely limit my freedom. to brush off exploitation as no big deal because the person doesn't realize their condition is to be complicit in a form of mental slavery. I cant see how any value system would judge that as being alright.

Have you ever heard the expression "You can't rape the willing?" It's going to turn some stomachs here, but the metaphor applies to kids as well. Questions of broadly-differing-age  sexual relationships  aside, minors require no more protection from the consequences of their own conscious choices than many college students supposedly require. I became atheist at age 10. I think the overprotective individuals of our society to tend to think kids must be constantly kept under one's wing in order to live well.

They don't!

(And many adults are often caught off guard when they finally start coming to terms with this)

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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apparently, I completely

apparently, I completely misunderstood what this thread was about... Yup... I'm a fucking whip...


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Gauche wrote:ShadowOfMan

Gauche wrote:

ShadowOfMan wrote:
I'm going to masturbate now. Anyone have a problem with that?

Why publicize it? Just do it like everyone else did.

This is how I think it happened though. Cpt_pineapple was in her apartment sitting in a bucket of ice-water reading the Oxford English Dictionary when she got to the D's so she logged onto the internet to find out what dancing looks like in this century.

Oh, if we could only go back she thought. To a simpler time, a mere twenty years would suffice. Back to when the Foxtrot, the Tango and the Charleston were at the height of their popularity.

It's hard to argue though when I see dancing like that. I myself have wondered at times if a plague of madness hasn't swept over us all. Young girls dancing. Moving their bodies when their bodies should clearly be stationary and covered with some sort of heavy fabric, possibly burlap.

 

*snort*

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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liberatedatheist wrote:Blake

liberatedatheist wrote:

Blake wrote:

liberatedatheist wrote:

Blake wrote:

cj wrote:
It has always been my thought that exploitation is in the eye of the exploitee.  If they don't feel exploited, then they aren't.  Goes for all pornography and sex industries as well.

 

This also needs to be made into a shirt and/or button.

no this is absolutely bullshit. I sure as shit didn't feel exploited when i was a believer but now that i've deconverted i feel as if my mind was manipulated and violated by the religious to serve their own agenda. You can still be exploited without realizing it. 

 

You seem to be interpreting it as though they must feel exploited in the moment the exploitation is occurring-  I don't think there was a time limit on her statement.

 

Somebody who passed out drunk, and was raped and videotaped while unconscious obviously didn't feel exploited at that time- but when the person becomes aware of it, he or she may feel exploited.

You were intellectually unconscious while Christian (or whatever you were)- now that you have woken up, you can realize that you were exploited.

 

These girls are in a cultural zeitgeist that finds this acceptable- unless they become Muslim suddenly one day, it is very likely that they will never feel exploited.  Obviously we can only take into account the most likely future when considering if they will ultimately feel that they were exploited.

So if i died happy and a fundy the church never exploited me? That is complete bull. A girl who was raped even if she was passed out and never found out that she had been raped was still used. If there is a force that is controlling my actions, such as religious indoctrination, i dont have to be conscious of it for it to severely limit my freedom. to brush off exploitation as no big deal because the person doesn't realize their condition is to be complicit in a form of mental slavery. I cant see how any value system would judge that as being alright.

 

For your statement to be true there must be an objective standard of exploitation.  Like objective morality, I don't think such a thing can exist.  Certainly we can make up our own rules and try to influence society at large into accepting them, but they are still subjective.

 

Besides, taken to the extreme I can't even think of a theoretical way to live a life free from exploitation of indoctrination of some sort.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Not to get graphic, BUT (!!!)

100percentAtheist wrote:
???  I guess, we can ask girls... but something (perhaps something completely irrational Smiling ) tells me that if I were a raped girl, I would find it out quite soon after waking up.... no clothes, sperm everywhere, unwanted pregnancy ... well maybe if I were a fanatically believing girl, I would possibly think that a god or a jesus has done this to me. Smiling

You would probably also notice the newly formed lacerations, the abrasions, the seemingly inexplicable swelling, the EXCRUCIATINGLY painful bruising/hemorrhage of the cervix, and (my morbid favorite) the sudden anxiety related to specific situations or visual/aureal stimuli,  nightmares, flashbacks, cognitive losses, panic attacks, "triggers" and the general phenomena of not being able to function as a person anymore.

(I should point out that I had a morbid interest in sexual sociopaths and forensic science looonnngg before anyone ever heard of "CSI" on television)


My point isn't the graphic, DEEPLY morbid realities of brutal childhood sexual assault...

...but rather that if you've had to use 'cruelty towards children' as a means of making your argument while intentionally pulling at the heart-strings and overly sentimental morals of everyone in the room you've already lost whatever meaningless, emotionally-charged point you were trying to make.

Liberatedatheist clearly demonstrated he wasn't interested in "a mutual exchange of ideas" the moment he dragged the word "rape" into the discussion. He only wants people to agree with him and see things the way he does. No point in arguing with that sort of person, at all... EVER.

End of discussion.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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liberatedatheist wrote:So if

liberatedatheist wrote:

So if i died happy and a fundy the church never exploited me? That is complete bull. A girl who was raped even if she was passed out and never found out that she had been raped was still used. If there is a force that is controlling my actions, such as religious indoctrination, i dont have to be conscious of it for it to severely limit my freedom. to brush off exploitation as no big deal because the person doesn't realize their condition is to be complicit in a form of mental slavery. I cant see how any value system would judge that as being alright.

Im not sure that you were explioted....

 

Im not sure you can compare being in a fundie church to being raped either....

 

You believed in it didn't you?

were there other options?

In my opinion if you chose something and there are other options it is not expliotation.

 

the only time i guess it may be called expliotation is when you were to young to think properly. and then its not just the church that did it... but your parents  as well.   so depending when you joined that church depends weather you were explioted. Even here it depends if there was any actual harm. only you can answer that, but being brought up to believe in god in my books is not a harm. (obviously depends on methods)

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Kapkao wrote:End of

Kapkao wrote:

End of discussion.

 

Amen... whatever.

 


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Kapkao

Kapkao wrote:

 

Liberatedatheist clearly demonstrated he wasn't interested in "a mutual exchange of ideas" the moment he dragged the word "rape" into the discussion. He only wants people to agree with him and see things the way he does. No point in arguing with that sort of person, at all... EVER.

End of discussion.

wow Kapkao, fuck you. If you look at the post 31 you will notice that Blake was the first person to bring rape into the equation. I only used rape because it was his example. It is people like you who are so set in their own beliefs that they are willing to bend the facts to fit their personal views that need to be ignored. If you were interested in "a mutual exchange of ideas" you wouldn't be making such bs unfounded personal attacks. Do your fucking research.

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Blake wrote:Exploitation has

Blake wrote:

Exploitation has two meanings.

1. Use of any kind.

-This is a less common, and more outdated usage

 

2. Selfish use; e.g. that which hurts another and benefits oneself

-Under this definition, if it doesn't hurt the other person, it's not exploitation.

 

In a hypothetical situation where a girl is raped while unconscious without being harmed, and doesn't catch any diseases or get pregnant, has she really been hurt?

 

That's a philosophical question of whether it's true that "what you don't know can't hurt you"- we could have that argument if you want.

 

Harm is a very subjective qualification, and the most important opinion of that harm is the one upon whom the harm may be falling.

 

cj wrote:
 

Sorry, I can not imagine this.  I am a child of the sixties, and I spent time doing my fair share of screwing around.  I did not do drugs and I have never drank enough alcohol to black out.  I once had alcohol poisoning for three straight days but I still remember every minute of that very embarrassing date.  Into the second day of puking, I seriously thought dying would be a relief.  The date rape drug did not yet exist and it wasn't necessary anyway - never mind.

Anyway I can not imagine being so out of it I wouldn't notice what was happening.  And I know what it is like to wake up and really live the experience of coyote ugly.  Was I exploited?  Meh.  I knew the consequences and I did it anyway. 

Not every woman feels the same way I do.  But I am just as unsympathetic about them as I am about myself.  I would feel more sympathy for the person raped in their own bed than for someone who plays with fire and gets burnt.

Seriously, LiberatedAtheist, if I had tried to deprogram you while you were a believing soul, wouldn't you have been upset and angry with me?  Trying to force you to give up christianity would to my thinking be another form of mind slavery and just as exploitative as any preacher.

So you guys seem to be taking a strictly consequentialist view of exploitation. Therefore i think you should consider the two major shortcomings this view may have. The first is that this view says nothing about the exploiter. If I exploit a person without them consciously experiencing any negative effects then nothing "bad" has happened. This fails our moral intuition in many cases such as the rape example even if the rape produced no negative effects. Most of us intuit that the rapist has done something not just morally neutral but morally wrong. 

The second, which i think would be a more pressing objection, considers what we value. Consequentialist theories, such as utilitarianism, generally hold happiness as the highest good. They consider all other values such as freedom and honesty inferior values that are only good because they promote happiness. It is therefore ok to forgo them if it will lead to greater happiness. I think religious indoctrination, even if I am willing, should be considered harm and therefore fall under exploitation. The reason being that it obscures my consciousness and therefore limits my freewill. I am using consciousness the way Marx did as sort of self consciousness. If i am not conscious of the nature of the forces that govern my actions than my freewill is being limited and i am being harmed. For example if i was lead to believe in the christian God, when in fact he doesn't exist, then my actions are being dictated by an "alien force" and my will is not my own. If you value freewill even if giving it up would make you significantly more happy, then you can still be harmed by indoctrination and  i would define it as being a form of exploitation. I wouldn't consider any of the sex industries such as porn or even prostitution as being exploitative as long as the participants know exactly what they are getting into and have the option of not participating. It becomes hard to say if religion is exploitative because we don't know for sure the true nature of god, but of course under my current views i feel exploited because i was deceived into thinking all that bull was true.

Marx used the idea of consciousness to explain why capitalism is a form of exploitation; google marx false consciousness if you want to hear a better explanation.

 

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liberatedatheist wrote: You

liberatedatheist wrote:

 You can still be exploited without realizing it. 

Are not all human relationships some form of exploitation? Why have children, spouses, girlfriends, employees, employers, friends, relatives, etc... unless you can exploit them in some way?

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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B166ER wrote:but I hate it

B166ER wrote:

but I hate it when children are taught to objectify themselves for others. My problem isn't the sexuality, my problem lies with the objectification of human beings, especially children who are still forming their thought processes.

Aren't all human relationships a from a objectification? They want something from you and you want something from them. How does that fact that it is sex make it more evil than anything else? So us men all learn to put on an act of not 'objectifying women' in order to get laid. How ironic, the way to get laid is to successfully pretend you don't want it.

Maybe children should be taught that everyone is out for what is in it for themselves which means they will be objectified by people for sex, they will be objectified by their employer, religion and other businesses will objectify them to get their money, politicians will objectify them to get their vote. This is how the world is.

So what is wrong with teaching a young girl that it is OK to be a stripper or prostitute? Aren't we all some kind of whore to get what we need and want?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca