Oklahoma City Anniversary

Marquis
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Oklahoma City Anniversary

It is today exactly 15 years since the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah building in Oklahoma City.

What was it that happened on that day? Let's have a look at what Wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

What I personally find a little strange about that explanation is that it doesn't even *try* to say anything about the other two (undetonated) bombs that were found in the building. According to Wikipedia, the Murrah building were (partially) blown up with an amateur rig that mostly consisted of ammonium fertilizer.

However that may be, a person, Timothy McVeigh, was apprehended, charged with the crime, and ultimately executed.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/mcveightrial.html

Meanwhile, as can be expected, the conspiracy theories flourished, as they still do.

http://sheikyermami.com/2010/04/18/oklahoma-city-bombing-the-strange-case-of-tim-mcveigh/

However, the public seemed satisfied with the outcome. It was decided that - in face of evidence to the contrary - the Oklahoma City bombing was carried out by a rogue "survivalist" militia type of guy, which indicated to everybody what sinister people those are, and what they are capeable of doing, in all their government-hating madness.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/ok.html

What cannot be doubted is that it was a terrible incident which brought a lot of grief to many people.

Here's some news footage from that day:

 

 

 

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cj
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I always thought the

I always thought the unidentified partial leg was a little strange.

If you rabble rouse, the rabble will rouse.  Maybe not where you lived at the time, but here in the NW US, I personally heard a lot of people advocating shooting and blowing up government employees and buildings at that time.  None of them thought about other people using the buildings - like senior citizens picking up soc sec checks and day care centers.  None of them thought about the people working in the buildings as their friends and neighbors. 

Oklahoma City was a terrible tragedy.  Yet in one way, at least it toned down the stupidity around here.  People were questioning just what bombings accomplished besides killing 2 year old children.  And the membership of the militia groups dropped way off.  Unfortunately, they are increasing again and I fear we will have to have yet another tragedy before people get a grip.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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mellestad
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cj wrote:And the membership

cj wrote:

And the membership of the militia groups dropped way off.  Unfortunately, they are increasing again and I fear we will have to have yet another tragedy before people get a grip.

 

I actually had a conversation a while ago with some Tea party people who were riled up and talking about revolution.  When I said, "I'll try to remember how noble you are while I'm dragging my wounded child towards the burned out wreck of a hospital, hoping I don't bleed out before I can get her to a doctor." all they can say is, "well, we don't want to hurt other people, we just want to put this government back to the way it is supposed to be!"  They have no concept of the real human tragedy that would result from their actions.  Sad

 

Nationalism, xenophobia, isolationism and ignorance.  In some cases I think it is a genuine mental illness filled with conspiracy theories and a clinical lack of empathy.  Or maybe old fashioned brain washing.  I don't know.  I'm curious to see how it plays out with the Huteree (sp?) people in Michigan because I want to know how you get so riled up you want to kill a bunch of cops just to make a point.

 

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So mellestad, are you

So mellestad, are you saying that it is critical that not one drop of blood may ever hit the ground? Even if the government forces that which you would view as evil? They are the government and whatever they want is far more important that what anyone in general wants?

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cj
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since mellestad was replying to me...

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

So mellestad, are you saying that it is critical that not one drop of blood may ever hit the ground? Even if the government forces that which you would view as evil? They are the government and whatever they want is far more important that what anyone in general wants?

 

Where shall I begin?  Forcing the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan down my throat is evil.  Forcing creationism is schools is evil.  Forcing me to give my tax dollars to charitable organizations is evil.  Not setting up a health insurance public option is evil.  Allowing thousands to die due to lack of health care is evil.  Allowing many thousands more to have to declare bankruptcy because of health care bills is evil.  Allowing many thousands of people to lose their homes is evil.  Not forcing protesters away from abortion clinics or military funerals is evil.  Allowing people to drive down the road with their dogs loose in the back of their pickup trucks is evil.

Is bombing a building with a day care center on the first floor evil?  Does it matter that the person(s) who did the bombing felt they were justified?  Is flying your airplane(s) into a building and killing one or thousands of people evil?  Does it matter that the person(s) who were flying the plane(s) thought it was justified?  Does it matter that many if not most of the people who were killed had nothing to do with those grievances and could not have solved the grievances if they had wanted to and tried?

Okay, you are maybe getting the idea.  What I think is evil and what you think is evil may not match up.  Actually, we may be almost polar opposites.  Like it or not, the majority rules.  If your guy gets elected, I may not be real happy with the results.  If my guy gets elected, you may not be real happy with the results.  Is that any reason for either of us to go around blowing up the other person?

I don't like a lot of what is going on.  I HATE being unemployed and I am very much displeased with the reasons for the economic collapse.  I am not happy with the progress to date, but I never expected anyone of any party or affiliation to be able to walk in and solve the problems we created for ourselves in a week or two - or a month or two - I was figuring it would be years before we (the world, not just the US) recovered.  It was a hell of a huge bubble that made a hell of a mess when it burst.  Conservation of matter and energy at work.

Just because I am pissed does not give me the right to blow up people who are just trying to live their lives, follow the law, do their job, pay their bills.  I don't care what your issue(s) may be, that is never justified.  I also don't think blowing up congress or the white house would do anyone a speck of good.

For pete's suffering sake, think about what might be put in place instead of what we have now.  How many examples of coups in other countries do you have to view before you realize that the new bastards in power are almost always a lot worse than the old bastards who used to be in power.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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If someone can look me in

If someone can look me in the eye and tell me the current tax burden in America is worth a civil war (and potentially the death of myself and my family) I am willing to take up arms against them, and before that happens I am willing to call them on their hysterical doomsday bullshit.

 

How's that?

 

I don't think revolution is never warranted, obviously it is at times, but these people are advocating a revolution based on the return to a fabled political utopia that never existed (A utopia I wouldn't even want to live in).  They are middle class white conservatives that thought that any system of national health care was worth leaving the political process and commiting political killings over.  They are nuts, and they couldn't even defend their own political beliefs, talking to them it was one giant appeal to emotion.

--------

 

 

Sorry about that, I get riled up sometimes.  Sticking out tongue

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cj wrote:Unfortunately, they

cj wrote:
Unfortunately, they are increasing again and I fear we will have to have yet another tragedy before people get a grip.

And also unfortunate, in a most twisted sense, is that the home-grown radicals will be caught and apprehended by Patriot Act security measures before they ever get a chance to demonstrate to the rest of the world how unforgivably stupid they are.

People need free demonstrations of how NOT to act sometimes before common sense kicks in.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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I was watching the McVeigh

I was watching the McVeigh Tapes last night. In this monster's twisted logic he was telling others they weren't special. He became disillusioned by the civilian deaths he saw in Iraq. But in the ultimate irony he described himself as a trailblazer, which makes his selfishness the ultimate narcissism.

The truth is that these notable acts of violence, be it done by people from our country, or in other countries to other people, is not done for a greater good, but for the purpose of selfishly making a name for oneself.

Which is why we should not label people "terrorists" but criminals. McVeigh, Bin Ladin, Rudolph are not heros and do anything but make a name for themselves at the expense of dividing humanity. They are not freedom fighters they are criminals.

 

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cj
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Kapkao wrote:cj

Kapkao wrote:

cj wrote:
Unfortunately, they are increasing again and I fear we will have to have yet another tragedy before people get a grip.

And also unfortunate, in a most twisted sense, is that the home-grown radicals will be caught and apprehended by Patriot Act security measures before they ever get a chance to demonstrate to the rest of the world how unforgivably stupid they are.

People need free demonstrations of how NOT to act sometimes before common sense kicks in.

 

You know, that is very true.  Damn, where did I put the bug spray?

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj
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Brian37 wrote:I was watching

Brian37 wrote:

I was watching the McVeigh Tapes last night. In this monster's twisted logic he was telling others they weren't special. He became disillusioned by the civilian deaths he saw in Iraq. But in the ultimate irony he described himself as a trailblazer, which makes his selfishness the ultimate narcissism.

The truth is that these notable acts of violence, be it done by people from our country, or in other countries to other people, is not done for a greater good, but for the purpose of selfishly making a name for oneself.

Which is why we should not label people "terrorists" but criminals. McVeigh, Bin Ladin, Rudolph are not heros and do anything but make a name for themselves at the expense of dividing humanity. They are not freedom fighters they are criminals.

 

 

I have to say amen.  And......

 

http://newadventuresofqueenvictoria.com/strips/big/naqv100420.gif

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Nice comic strip, cj.The

Nice comic strip, cj.

The Oklahoma City Bombing is one of those rare events (like the JFK Assassination and the Moon Landing were for my parents) that I can still remember vividly and still remember where I was and what I was doing when it happened.  But then, I was only a mere 30 miles away from the actual bombing itself at the time.  I was sitting in English class in 7th grade when suddenly another teacher burst in exclaiming, "They bombed the federal building!"  She didn't specify who "they" were or which federal building.  So, I assumed it was the federal building a couple of blocks away in my small town, and that it was imploded on purpose so they could build a new one.  Later that day, I found out the ugly truth.  It's hard to believe it's been 15 years already, and that I have lived more of my life after that event than before.

Since I am somewhat of a pacifist, I believe that violence is almost never justified, and especially not terrorism.  I'm glad that McVeigh was executed for his heinous crimes.  Civil disobedience and non-violence can often be more effective than violence, but idiots don't understand that.  Tea Partiers who think a violent revolution is justified are the same type of scum that would punch someone for calling them a liar or insulting their mom.