From WTC to WTF: What's your take?

Marquis
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From WTC to WTF: What's your take?

Lately, I have spent some time researching what's on the internet (A LOT!) about the 9/11 events.

I remember well how, at the time, I was watching the television with a friend and business associate. When the twin towers collapsed we looked at eachother in disbelief. There was no doubt that it was somehow a rigged demolition - but we had no idea how they - whoever they are/were - pulled that off. It was just one of those "WOW!" moments. (It should probably be mentioned that at the time, we were running a construction company and that we did a bit of demolition ourselves, so it is fair to say that we both had, and still have, quite a good and hands-on "feel" for how construction materials behave, even though none of us are accredited physicists or engineers.)

As the days went by it became blatantly clear that something sinister was going on. The "explanations" that came out defied as well common sense as known laws of physics. How could the plane that hit the Pentagon simply "evaporate", titanium-steel-alloys and all, but still leave behind DNA material enough to identify the passengers? And that alleged plane crash in Pennsylcania was even more mysterious. Where's the fucking plane?!?

In the months that followed, things got really ugly. An Orwellian "war on terrorism" was launched - and it was declared that America is above international law. Even above its own law! We saw the pictures from Guantanamo Bay. It was like a twisted parody on the movie "Wag The Dog" but it was undeniably real: America had fallen into the hands of a small cabal of so-called neocons, who, true to the teachings of their master and guru Leo Strauss, churned out one wild-eyed fantasy story of conspiracy more phantasmagorical than the next, in a propaganda operation nobody had seen the likes of since the days of Josef Goebbels.

It still goes on, almost ten years later. To this day, nobody as been able to offer a credible explanation for what really happened on that day. But there is a grass root sort of movement who refuse to swallow that ridiculous canard that is the "official" story. Among, frankly, untold amounts of completely idiotic speculations, there are serious people who patiently work towards what should have happened right away: A meticulous criminal investigation, based in scientific principles, under the leadership of a grand jury, which can once and for all establish an explanation that satisfies.

For instance, how can an anisotropic, organic process of fire lead to a symmetric, global collapse of tensile strength in a steel construction? It flies in the face of well known principles of thermodynamics, as well Newton's law of inertia. But most importantly: Why is this issue allowed to remain unresolved for all this time, creating a political state of tension that threatens to rip America apart? Sensible questions that have been raised by inquiring minds, most of them based in critical professionalism, are being met with vile accusations of being "unpatriotic". WTF is going on?

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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cj
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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

cj wrote:

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
First off, the source that cj gave us is Snopes. Now don't get me wrong here, snopes is fairly cool and they tend to come up with stuff that is probably correct. However, there is a problem with using snopes as a source for lots of information.

 

I have also quoted skeptic.com (skeptic magazine) and James Randi's blog. I agree with your problems with snopes and was not intending it as anything other than confirmation that I was not blowing smoke about environmental contamination.

 

OK, first off, I was not trying to imply that you were blowing smoke on this. Rather that given the nature of this subject, there are probably better sources one could use. Although I will honestly disclose that I got the BBC news link from the Straight Dope forums, so yah...

 

Apologies.  I didn't link to Skeptic or Randi's site for cocaine on money- not once.  You are correct.  The Snopes link was strictly to demonstrate cocaine on money was such a common question that it wound up on Snopes.  Picky, picky.

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

 

cj wrote:
There is a reason why the dudes on CSI use gloves, special plastic baggies that can not be bought at the local store, other specialized equipment for collecting samples AND documentation of a chain of custody.

 

OK, here I will be a prick. Knock yourself out:

 

http://www.chiefsupply.com/Law_Enforcement/Investigations/Evidence_Collection,Storage

 

Fine, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  Actually, I was thinking of library and anthro storage materials when I wrote that.  http://www.gaylord.com/adblock.asp?abid=2573&search_by=desc&search_for=archival&mpc=WW

 

Remind me to always google before I shoot off my fingers.  Figuratively.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Marquis wrote:Okie Dokie.I

Marquis wrote:

Okie Dokie.

I am getting fed up of trying to convince the *believers* in the fairy tale about Ali Baba and the Nineteen Hijackers that the collapse of all three WTC buildings 1, 2 and 7 were VERY questionable incidents, and that multiple in situ eyewitnesses observed explosions - which supports what (in my opinion) any person of common sense should immideately understand: The buildings were blown up. Debating whether or not dust samples are containing nano-thermite materials isn't going anywhere. We're just fidgeting around details. We're missing the larger picture.

 

In other words, I might have a point.  Thank you.

 

Marquis wrote:

<stuff>


Lastly: Why am I interested in this shit at all???

Because political propaganda surrounding these events have changed the entire world, including (but not limited to) my personal freedom to move around at will without subjecting myself to the humiliation of being treated as a potential criminal, to the point of well-nigh giving blood samples and having my body cavities searched by prying fingers. Police with machine guns are prancing around in broad daylight as if there was nothing strange about this. My home country has been dragged into a suspect war over oil and pipelines in Afghanistan, leving multiple soldiers dead. My children are going to have to grow up in an Orwellian fascist world of police and passport laws. Yeah damn right I'm bloody well pissed off!

And all the while, there are smug motherfuckers and corporate criminals spouting *bullshit* while trying to pretend as if there's nothing wrong with the whole oil-and-money trace, that all I have to do is learn how to hate Arabs and I'll be just fine. Well fuck that shit! As far as Nazi regimes go, once in this world ought to be enough.

 

I'm a US citizen, born and bred for a lot of generations.  And I think 9-11 was a cluster fuck for all except the rescue efforts.  The people who were there doing their best to save as many as they could were hard working caring people who put their own lives on the line for others. 

I am upset that people in the Middle East think we are the "great satan".  I am upset that the Islamic extremists were largely ignored by the GW Bush White House until they started blowing things up.  I am upset that it was then used to start an unnecessary war with a country that was not involved for what seemed to me to be obvious reasons of corporate greed.  I am upset with the continuation of this war.  I am royally pissed about the thousands of dead Iraqis and Afghanis and the thousands of US soldiers dead and wounded.

Coming up with a great conspiracy to further US criminality seems to be over kill to me.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Marquis
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cj wrote:Coming up with a

cj wrote:

Coming up with a great conspiracy to further US criminality seems to be over kill to me.

 

The word you are looking for is *treason*.

I have never for even a moment thought that the US people are bad people; not in any way, shape or form. But I'll have to say that they are royally gullible some times. Perhaps even uncaring about what goes on in the rest of the world, and even in their own country(!), as long as they get their *cake* and their *colour-tv's*. Isn't it a fact that every five years or so there is some kind of "secret services" scandal being rolled up? CIA? Planes with cocaine? Arms deals with shady people? Drugs tested on prison inmates? Assassinations of foreign state leaders? Mind control programs? Black ops? Oliver North and Iran-Contra? Maybe you should consider that, just perhaps, some times, the US military is being misused in shady operations by greedy people in a quest for world dominance and power, thus creating a righteous (but misplaced) anger towards all of America?

As I see this 9/11 complex, here exists a real possibility that it was indeed an inside job. But even so, I would be willing to look the other way and forget about it all (simply because it's too big to blow up out into the open just like that) if somebody would just get a fucking grip and clean up this mess. In my most recent naivity, I thought that this was why Obama was elected into power. Get rid of Guantanamo Bay, end the stupid wars, restore America's standing abroad, make peace with all those who carry grievances, and blow the corporate weasels (with all their sinister Ponzi schemes) out of the water so that normal people can return to living normal lives, and the economy can be made good again. Wouldn't that have been something?

But is this what is happening? No. He's just like the rest of them: Either blatantly corrupt or timidly weak.

It has gone too far. All this shit needs to be brought out into the open sunlight now. All the spooks and the schemes and the cloaks and daggers. You Americans need to realise that there is no magical principle that protects you against the nefarious manouverings of evil people, within or without, and in not understanding this, you become guilty by default - because all the information is out there, in the open. You can find it if you want to. All that's lacking is a healthy will to clean all that shit up and get on with life.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Answers in Gene...
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Um hello Marquis, I don't

Um hello Marquis, I don't think you have noticed it but Americans are assholes. It is who we are and what we do. We revel in the matter. Hell's bells, the reason why we have a country in the first place is because a couple of centuries ago, we were bigger assholes than the British were.

Doing your googling for you yet again, the population of the US is almost exactly two orders of magnitude larger than the population of Norway. So if everyone in Norway was an asshole, we would still have a hundred times as many asshole as you.

Marquis wrote:
Lastly: Why am I interested in this shit at all???

Because political propaganda surrounding these events have changed the entire world, including (but not limited to) my personal freedom to move around at will without subjecting myself to the humiliation of being treated as a potential criminal, to the point of well-nigh giving blood samples and having my body cavities searched by prying fingers. Police with machine guns are prancing around in broad daylight as if there was nothing strange about this. My children are going to have to grow up in an Orwellian fascist world of police and passport laws. Yeah damn right I'm bloody well pissed off!

Perhaps if you are interested in that type of freedom, you should consider moving to the US. The fact is that we do know who the terrorists are but we don't do all that much (news items about yet another major plot being foiled notwithstanding) about them. Grandma cj can't bring her knitting on an airplane because of the security restrictions. However, questioning young Muslim males from countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia would be racist. How cj is a bigger threat than a 20 year old Saudi national names Yuseff is beyond my ability to understand.

Given what I know of you, I suspect that you would probably do well in a Midwestern state such as Ohio. Bear in mind however that Ohio is the state where most of our voting machines are manufactured and the CEO of the corporation that makes them went on record a couple of weeks before the 2004 election as saying that his corporation was fully committed to delivering electoral votes to G. W. Bush.

Yes, he really did say that and in that time frame. And I don't give a rat's ass who he supported. In a sane place, his professional position should require him to remain silent on the matter. He can vote for whomever he wants but he probably should have had a second though before he said that. Except that we do let people say whatever they feel like saying.

Well, sort of. Cat Stevens is not allowed to enter the US. He is on the terrorist “no fly” list. In fact, the last time he tried to come here, his flight was diverted from Washington D. C. to Bangor Maine. Apparently, we have better security in a place that few people go to than we do in our nation's capital. Also, when we want to exclude dangerous Muslim people, we seem to think that 60 year old British peace activists are more likely to be a problem than 20 year old dudes from Jordan.

Fear this guy. He will nuke you:

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Marquis
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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
Given what I know of you, I suspect that you would probably do well in a Midwestern state such as Ohio.

 

Well, Mr. Simmons, the fact of the matter is that I got along just fine with the archetype rednecks of rural North Carolina, where I stayed for about 8 months, on and off, during the one and one half year that I pursued a girlfreind sort of adventure there.

But I could - seriously - never live in the US. Why? Because I am too used to the freedom of being Norwegian. And by that I do not mean an ideological freedom that you chant slogans about and worship at political rallies, but rather something simple and unassuming, a way of life where you never for any reason need to live in fear of "what your government might do next"... simply because they just don't have that kind of power. We won't let them. We never have and we never will. I am not used to the *thou shalt* attitude of law enforcement personnell and beurocrats. That is completely alien to me. I am not used to the cattle line attitudes of Homeland Security people who look suspiciously at you and ask you stupid questions. I am used to common fucking sense in a nation where the number of quote-unquote atheists are about 80% or so. And that doesn't just mean *religious* atheism, that means a consequent and unflinching rejection of the whole idea of a "central power" that can dictate how you should live your life.

But you know what really got to me?

I come from the richest fucking nation in this world. The Norwegian state runs a profit, FFS! But even still I had to answer insulting insinuations from immigration officers that thought I was wanting to find *work* in that fucked-up third world banana republic of yours. Give me a fucking break! At home, I can go out and just wave my hand to get 100+ dollars an hour work assignments any day. Why oh why, by the Gangrened Green Gonads of Gandalf, would I want to trade that for the fucking joke of a financial system you have over there??? Fuck that shit. The morale here is to work hard and save your money, not to max out your credit card with all kinds of frivolous bullshit, then panic while you try to pay those loan shark interests back. The culture is just very different. I am used to no bullshit order and cleanliness, stern and unflincing people who don't just *talk* all the time.

But, as I said, for whatever reason, the southern bikers *luved* me.

 

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Ah-ha!

Marquis wrote:
But, as I said, for whatever reason, the southern bikers *luved* me.

Your 'arrow' is a little crooked after all!

So which team do you cheer for, marquis? I cheer for OH SHIT! cj is online!

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:Your 'arrow' is

Kapkao wrote:

Your 'arrow' is a little crooked after all!

 

However that may be, Mr. Kapkao, my aim is true. Meine Ehre heisst Treue.

As for my team, well that is the football - that which you godless heathens call 'soccer' - team Rosenborg!!!

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Rich Woods wrote: Perhaps you didn't notice

   I'm no conspiracy nut but I can't help to wonder "why did building 7 fall" ,nothing hit it ????

Signature ? How ?


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Ken G. wrote:   I'm no

Ken G. wrote:

   I'm no conspiracy nut but I can't help to wonder "why did building 7 fall" ,nothing hit it ????

Nothing, except major pieces of the North Tower, falling from a great height...

Wikipedia wrote:

As the North Tower collapsed on September 11, 2001, heavy debris hit 7 World Trade Center, causing damage to the south face of the building.  The bottom portion of the building's south face was damaged by debris, including damage to the southwest corner from the 8th to 18th floors, a large vertical gash on the center-bottom extending at least ten floors, and other damage as high as the 18th floor

 

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Kapkao wrote:Marquis

Kapkao wrote:

Marquis wrote:
But, as I said, for whatever reason, the southern bikers *luved* me.

Your 'arrow' is a little crooked after all!

So which team do you cheer for, marquis? I cheer for OH SHIT! cj is online!

 

What a minute, I'm trying to figure out how to respond to this.........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  You are fortunate today, the hormones are in tune.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Kapkao
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cj wrote:What a minute, I'm

cj wrote:
What a minute, I'm trying to figure out how to respond to this.........

 

  You are fortunate today, the hormones are in tune.

You didn't see my original post, though. It was a little TMI.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


cj
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Kapkao wrote:cj wrote:What a

Kapkao wrote:

cj wrote:
What a minute, I'm trying to figure out how to respond to this.........

 

  You are fortunate today, the hormones are in tune.

You didn't see my original post, though. It was a little TMI.

 

Your meds must be in tune.  Since when do you ever hold back and NOT give us TMI?

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.