HeartMath - wtf is this (video)

Tomcat
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HeartMath - wtf is this (video)

 I'm bAAAAaaaack...

 

Ok, so this girl I'm dating is into something called "HeartMath." My bullshit radar is going crazy.  Can someone help me find out if this woman (Deborah Rozman), one of the head honchos of HeartMath, has a real Ph.D???  She ALWAYS seems to include "Ph.D" by her name, but I've looked at many places and CANT find her saying WHERE she got the Ph.D from!!!

 

So she's affiliated with this video.  Ooooh boy is it full of shit:  http://www.thelivingmatrixmovie.com/en/trailer

 

From the first line:

"If you think you have an incurable disease, if you think it yourself, you are right.  If you think your problem is curable, then you are also right"

 

*puuuuuke*

 

I really like this chick I'm dating.  She has been through a lot of tough times, and needs some support.  I'm afraid she's looking for it in a reaaaallly sketchy place.

I'm not totally convinced HeartMath is a scam, but there are lots of signs that make me think about it.  The REAL leader of HeartMath is a guy named Doc Childre, who is not a real doctor.  From their websites:  

 

"In 1991, Doc founded the nonprofit Institute of HeartMath (IHM), a research and education organization. IHM's emotional physiology, organizational, educational, and clinical research has been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals and presented at numerous scientific conferences worldwide.  Doc Childre chairs the Scientific Advisory Board of IHM and serves as Chairman of HeartMath LLC and Chairman and co-CEO of Quantum Intech Inc., the parent company of HeartMath LLC. Doc is the author of a dozen books, including The HeartMath SolutionFrom Chaos to Coherence,Transforming StressTransforming AnxietyTransforming Anger, Transforming Depression and The HeartMath Approach to Managing Hypertension. He is also the creator of the award-winning emWave® heart rhythm coherence technology. Doc is also a consultant to business leaders, scientists, educators, and the entertainment industry through his firm Top-Down Consulting."

 

The WORST thing I have found so far is that they market this product that just SCREAMS "E-meter" from Scientology.  The EmWave: 

 

http://www.youtube.com/v/k4n3X_Sz5tw&hl=en_US&fs=1&

 

"Risk Free" 30 day money back guarantee.  Should I order one? lol   One site is selling it for $200!!!!!!!!!

The HeartMath people also run Quantum Intech Inc., which makes this EmWave device.  They also run that Institute of HeartMath which provides a lot of the "research" done for this device.  I havn't read any of them, so I don't have much to back myself up for putting quotes around the word research, but I feel confident about it.

 

But I just saw this video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/v/FnvtqpwJPPU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"

 

An anecdote, but a moving one.  This isn't as obvious a case as some scams can be, if it really is a scam...  I have never used the device, but my father is a cardiologist and I'd like to ask his opinion on their use of the term "heart brain" and a lot of their other claims.  They talk about heart rythms in their science to back it up, and I agree, the heart is a rythmic organ for sure.  But how far can we take that thinking?  HeartMath takes it to a level I've never seen before, and it scares me.

I'm scared for my girl...  she is a wonderful person but I'm really worried she is being suckered into this.  She's no idiot, too.  College educated, has a degree, quick as a whip.  Me likey.  But I am afraid I'm going to get really pissed off at her if she asks me to read Doc Childre's book again...  I bought her Jon Haidt's The Happiness Hypothesis.  He is a leading researcher in positive psychology, which is an actual science...  and is a lot less lamer a name then HeartMath.  I have yet to discover the "math" part of the whole thing... lol

 

Sites to aide in finding out what HeartMath really is:

http://www.heartmath.com/About-Us/Team.html

http://www.quantumintech.com/research.html - "The analysis of HRV, or heart rhythms, is recognized as a powerful, noninvasive measure that reflects heart-brain interactions and autonomic nervous system dynamics, which are particularly sensitive to changes in emotional state."

http://www.coherence.com/  - "Coherence is a term used by scientists to describe a highly efficient physiological state where your nervous system, hormonal, immune, and cardiovascular systems are working together efficiently and harmoniously."

COHERENCE(TM) (trademarked the word Coherence? lol) provides tools and methods that facilitate autonomic nervous system balance. These patented tools and methods are the result of a breakthrough in the understanding of the subtle relationship between heart and breathing rhythms.

http://www.betterhealthinnovations.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=HRM-6300&Show=ExtInfo - "Aside from helping to reduce stress, are there other applications for using the emWave that I can benefit from?"

 

 

HELP!!!!!!

 

-Tom

 

P.S.: Brian, hey.  I didn't join up with Greg, like you were sure I was going to.  I ran into a lot of "bad luck" and wasn't able to pursue it more.  I read his book though, it's interesting, but boring too.  I think he's doing good things overall.  I'm not as confident I like the term Humanism as much as I did before, but it's still up there in my book, and Greg's "brand" of it is pretty unique.   Well enough about him, wtf have you been up to dude.  Write me if you feel like it.  All the best, peace.

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cj
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expensive placeboes

I have a psychologist friend who was briefly into HeartMath.  Briefly.  It is not as effective as some other biofeedback and neuro-feedback systems.  According to my friend. 

Biofeedback is tested and demonstrably works for some bodily measures.  High blood pressure for example, can be reduced using biofeedback.  If you have bad reactions to the medications for high blood pressure, it can be a reasonable and tested alternative. 

I know the bullshit meter is jumping.  I am not all that into alternative medicines.  Yet I have a lot of sympathy for people with chronic conditions who are looking for assistance to live their lives in some sort of reduced-pain place.  I have tried various alternative treatments for arthritis and I can state they don't work for me.  But it is getting very hard to have a placebo response as I get older.

From what I know about HeartMath, the only thing that will suffer is your friend's wallet.  It's pricey, it won't hurt her, and she may get some of that placebo effect.  Never forget the placebo effect is real, and it is generally positive.  It is why a lot of alternative medicine never goes away.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Well, the name "HeartMath"

Well, the name "HeartMath" already makes me suspicious.  

Tomcat wrote:
Ooooh boy is it full of shit:  http://www.thelivingmatrixmovie.com/en/trailer

With that first line, he's talking about the placebo affect. There's nothing wrong with the placebo affect, so he's correct, to an extent. In my opinion, he's exaggerating a bit though. Most of the main points seem to come later in the video. There's something that they call an "information field," which sounds a lot like some mind-over-matter pseudoscience crap. But, I can't be sure because a lot of the language they employed was really vague, so I don't know what it is they're really proposing.  

Regarding HeartMath, one of their main points about health seems to be that our health problems are often based on mental states, stress, etc., which I don't really disagree with. Again, I would say that they're exaggerating a bit in some cases, but that's about it. 

They're approach is somewhat unorthodox, but it's not really pseusdoscience. At least most of their premises really do seem to be backed up by real research and science. The only thing I saw that really set off any alarms was the emWave technology, especially that graph of your "coherence level," but even that I'm not completely sure about. Even if it doesn't actually measure your stress level, it'll still help with breathing and stress and be a good placebo. 

So, until I see more information, my initial impression is that it's not that bad. 

Edit: Well, I mean, it's very bad if they're just selling a placebo, but....ah, you know what I mean.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Tomcat
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"With that first line, he's

"With that first line, he's talking about the placebo affect. There's nothing wrong with the placebo affect, so he's correct, to an extent."

I disagree.  Placebo effect: "The phenomenon is related to the perception and expectation which the patient has; if the substance is viewed as helpful, it can heal" - wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect#Mechanism_of_the_effect)

The key word in the quote is "can" before "heal."  The guy in the video goes a step further from "can heal" to "will heal," interestingly attributing the placebo effect powers beyond what it has been scientifically observed to have.  He speaks generally of "problems" that you can will yourself into curing.  There ARE problems you can fix by will alone, and definitely some that are not getting enough attention by the science community these days.  But he STILL goes too far.

 

Besides that I agree! Thanks for the response

 

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Tomcat
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cj wrote:I have a

cj wrote:

I have a psychologist friend who was briefly into HeartMath.  Briefly.  It is not as effective as some other biofeedback and neuro-feedback systems.  According to my friend. 

Biofeedback is tested and demonstrably works for some bodily measures.  High blood pressure for example, can be reduced using biofeedback.  If you have bad reactions to the medications for high blood pressure, it can be a reasonable and tested alternative. 

I know the bullshit meter is jumping.  I am not all that into alternative medicines.  Yet I have a lot of sympathy for people with chronic conditions who are looking for assistance to live their lives in some sort of reduced-pain place.  I have tried various alternative treatments for arthritis and I can state they don't work for me.  But it is getting very hard to have a placebo response as I get older.

From what I know about HeartMath, the only thing that will suffer is your friend's wallet.  It's pricey, it won't hurt her, and she may get some of that placebo effect.  Never forget the placebo effect is real, and it is generally positive.  It is why a lot of alternative medicine never goes away.

 

Thanks! I agree with pretty much all this!  I'm a bit concerned that you knew of someone who was into HeartMath.  It's spreading.  But I'm all for people learning about neuro and bio feedback.  That stuff really works.  So does Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) (http://vimeo.com/4149387) and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT, like CBT) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy

The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...


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Tomcat wrote:"With that

Tomcat wrote:

"With that first line, he's talking about the placebo affect. There's nothing wrong with the placebo affect, so he's correct, to an extent."

I disagree.  Placebo effect: "The phenomenon is related to the perception and expectation which the patient has; if the substance is viewed as helpful, it can heal" - wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect#Mechanism_of_the_effect)

The key word in the quote is "can" before "heal."  The guy in the video goes a step further from "can heal" to "will heal," interestingly attributing the placebo effect powers beyond what it has been scientifically observed to have.  He speaks generally of "problems" that you can will yourself into curing.  There ARE problems you can fix by will alone, and definitely some that are not getting enough attention by the science community these days.  But he STILL goes too far.

Besides that I agree! Thanks for the response

Eh, yeah, you're probably right. I have sort of the same impression, I wrote, "In my opinion, he's exaggerating a bit though." But, I might be giving them too much benefit of the doubt.  

They seem to be using the placebo effect as a cover for at least some pseudoscience woo. I'd be curious to find out how much 'woo' it is.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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It appears to be a bunch of

It appears to be a bunch of very expensive placebo stuff, and they are exaggerating (to the point of dishonesty); though to be fair, without that exaggeration it's harder for some people to get the placebo effect.

"Will" works better than "maybe" sometimes.

It can be hard to accomplish without lying.  However, even so, personally I don't believe there's any excuse for dishonesty- even if it's saving lives (which I highly doubt this is).

Spinning words around until it confuses people into making a placebo work, though... grey area maybe.

 

I can see what the emWave is doing, though; it looks like a sort of meditation training device (in effect), by reading out heart rate.  Mechanically, it looks like it's accomplishing the exact same thing as the E-meter (which somewhat detects stress by involuntary muscle action), just that it's slightly more reliable, and practically, not used for any third person auditing.

 

The problem with all of this, as mentioned, is that placebos should be free, and meditation is certainly free, and you don't need to carry something around the size of a portable hard drive to accomplish it.

 

 

I would say, be careful of these tiny irrationalities, though... if you can't talk her out of it rather easily (even if you eventually do talk her out of it), it could be indicative of a susceptibility to bullshit (or a broken bullshit detector). 

If you think this may end up being long term, the same kind of thing is probably going to come up again and again as she gets into new things... the bullshit certainly isn't going to stop flowing around us.

 

I guess it's up to you, how much woo you can tolerate on a regular basis?

Anything like this is probably the tip of the iceberg.


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 So, anyone know how to

 So, anyone know how to investigate someone claiming to have a Ph.D. but you suspect doesn't actually have one?

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Tomcat wrote: So, anyone

Tomcat wrote:

 So, anyone know how to investigate someone claiming to have a Ph.D. but you suspect doesn't actually have one?

I just wiki, then google. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Tomcat wrote: So, anyone

Tomcat wrote:

 So, anyone know how to investigate someone claiming to have a Ph.D. but you suspect doesn't actually have one?

 

Hire an investigative agency- something like this might only cost a few hundred bones.


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Tomcat wrote:So, anyone know

Tomcat wrote:
So, anyone know how to investigate someone claiming to have a Ph.D. but you suspect doesn't actually have one?

If they really have a Ph.D., a copy of their thesis should be in the library of the institution where the Ph.D. is from.


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KSMB wrote:Tomcat wrote:So,

KSMB wrote:

Tomcat wrote:
So, anyone know how to investigate someone claiming to have a Ph.D. but you suspect doesn't actually have one?

If they really have a Ph.D., a copy of their thesis should be in the library of the institution where the Ph.D. is from.

 

If you know the university the person claims to have the Ph.D. from, then it's easy- but if you don't, it's a bit more effort.  Particularly, it becomes necessary to track their histories, which is what private investigative firms are for.


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HeartMath

 

 

Here is where it goes to complete scam for me

http://www.glcoherence.org/about-us/about.html

 

These guys are using this HeartMath emmeter to change the global ionicspeare and are holding seminars (Bring home the bacon baby) to teach you how to be part of the revolution of more global coherence. And Doc Chiders is on their board. 

 

You can also go to their global health room and send coherence to the people in pakistan who were flooded, because god knows they need coherence over clean water. 

 


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be a scientist

Why do you want to debunk it, when you basically know nothing about it?  The most rational thing to do is to approach it as a scientist, with an open mind.  Try it, experiment with it, and report back to us.


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heartmath

Only an idiot would take your advice and waste their hard earned money on this crap. Sorry, but no thanks.


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Some smartass saw the secret

Some smartass saw the secret too many times and decided to link it to medicine and aggressively promote it to ensure its effectiveness. If not for my ethical code, I'd have become rich by now doing something similar.

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