Florida city council insists on cheerleading for Jesus

Brian37
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Florida city council insists on cheerleading for Jesus

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Brian37

 

Brian, your link dosen't work try this one: Link

 

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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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http://www.abcactionnews.com/

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lol VB: 1-0PJtS:

lol

 

VB: 1-0

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Brian37: 0-2

 

Reppin your team, huh? 


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It seems to be an error in

It seems to be an error in drupal that is breaking the link.  When I go into the edit screens, brian's link is correct.

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The Lakeland and Tampa

The Lakeland and Tampa councils are the least of our problems in Florida. I searched the Orlando Sentinel as I didn't remember seeing this story reported and found nothing on it. After looking further I found this at a Polk county Florida news site:

Prayer before Public Meetings

It seems prayer is prevalent throughout public meetings and is only considered a violation of 1st amend when one is promoted so to speak. When publicly elected officials do the praying they are at risk of lawsuits. Though it is looked at in different ways depending on which US circuit court of appeals dist involved.

Looking further at the web site of http://atheistsofflorida.org/

 I found how Gov Crist, currently running for US Senate as a Repub insulted an atheist for simply expressing his position, see here - http://atheistsofflorida.org/images/Crist.pdf

 

I also have not seen any discussion over the inicident reported in the above mentioned letter in the Orlando press, but I could have missed it.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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I've been to a couple of my

I've been to a couple of my city council meeting. And they certainly start off with a prayer to Christ. It's frustrating, but it's a fight that would seem "busy body-ish" to me. I think if I had to attend every meeting, I would certainly fight the fight. If I ever speak at one again, I might casually comment on the absurdity that an all powerful being cares one bit about whether or not to paint bike lanes on our small town streets.

A daughter of hope and fear, religion explains to Ignorance the nature of the unknowable. -Ambrose Bierce


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ShadowOfMan wrote:I've been

ShadowOfMan wrote:
I've been to a couple of my city council meeting. And they certainly start off with a prayer to Christ. It's frustrating, but it's a fight that would seem "busy body-ish" to me. I think if I had to attend every meeting, I would certainly fight the fight. If I ever speak at one again, I might casually comment on the absurdity that an all powerful being cares one bit about whether or not to paint bike lanes on our small town streets.

It is important. They do not have a right to a monopoly of public ceremony. Unless they are going to allow others the same venue and platform they are unconstitutionally shutting out others. This has nothing to do with their right to talk to themselves. It has to do with treating others as second class citizens.

Christians and Jews in Iran have a right to bitch, they don't. They are simply acting like spoiled brats in a sand box when someone else steps in and says the sand box is ours, not just yours.

I would suggest all who have the time to attend city council meetings in your locals, even if you don't speak, you can show up with atheist hats or shirts and if they kick you out, you can sue them.

But, according to this story, the city council rules state that every group gets a chance to say something and they cut off the meeting right when the atheist's turn came up. That is NOT an atheist issue, that is a rights issue. It shows the hypocrisy of those in power. Freedom of speech is fine, as long as it is what they agree with.

 

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Yeah, but it would literally

Yeah, but it would literally be a waste of my time. Even if I got them to stop while I was present, there would be nothing preventing them from doing it when no atheists were watching. I have more of an anarchist opinion I guess. In other words, I don't see much wrong with there prayers, and I don't see anything wrong with yelling out BULLSHIT! if I have to hear it again. But I'm not about to cause a stink of I'm not going to be there to hear it. I'm pretty evangelical, but not that evangelical.

A daughter of hope and fear, religion explains to Ignorance the nature of the unknowable. -Ambrose Bierce


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don't they have anything

don't they have anything better to complain about? Pray if you want to before the meeting, don't if you don't want to. whats wrong with that? I really cannot see a problem. 

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Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
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I agree. I think school

I agree. I think school would obviously be different matter since the prayer would likely be from an authority figure and imposing upon impressionable children. But running the Christians out of city hall is counter productive. You know how much they love being the martyr. Always the oppressed they are.

Let them babble and let us ridicule, rather than stoop to the lowly position of busy-bodies.

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I loved that letter to the

I loved that letter to the Governor though. Good stuff!


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Tapey wrote:don't they have

Tapey wrote:

don't they have anything better to complain about? Pray if you want to before the meeting, don't if you don't want to. whats wrong with that? I really cannot see a problem. 

The last time an atheist gave an invocation at a city council meeting the Christians threw a fit. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT, they are being hypocrites and want it both ways. If you read even in this story, not even dealing with the invocation, the rule is that if a group is on the docket, they get to speak, when it became the atheist's turn, they ended the meeting before the atheists could speak.

If you find discrimination acceptable, then yea.

They want their prayers, they don't want to share the invocation ceremony with non-Christians. It is a back of the bus attitude.

If you think it is ok, then go to your local city council and ask them if YOU can give an atheist invocation and see what they say.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Utah+court+upholds+atheist%27s+prayer+before+council+meetings.+%28Around...-a0102275208

http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/02/14/south-carolina-atheists-invocation-denied.htm

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:Tapey

 

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

don't they have anything better to complain about? Pray if you want to before the meeting, don't if you don't want to. whats wrong with that? I really cannot see a problem. 

The last time an atheist gave an invocation at a city council meeting the Christians threw a fit. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT, they are being hypocrites and want it both ways. If you read even in this story, not even dealing with the invocation, the rule is that if a group is on the docket, they get to speak, when it became the atheist's turn, they ended the meeting before the atheists could speak.

If you find discrimination acceptable, then yea.

They want their prayers, they don't want to share the invocation ceremony with non-Christians. It is a back of the bus attitude.

If you think it is ok, then go to your local city council and ask them if YOU can give an atheist invocation and see what they say.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Utah+court+upholds+atheist%27s+prayer+before+council+meetings.+%28Around...-a0102275208

http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/02/14/south-carolina-atheists-invocation-denied.htm

im sorry this is just childish. the atheist wants to pray? for what? to what? it makes no sense for them to do it anyway. look if it says all that are on the docket get to, then they should. but its rather silly. rather making a mockery of a serious meeting.

 

here is the defination

in·vo·ca·tion play_w2("I0218200") (nv-kshn)

n. 1. The act or an instance of invoking, especially an appeal to a higher power for assistance. 2. A prayer or other formula used in invoking, as at the opening of a religious service. 3. a. The act of conjuring up a spirit by incantation. b. An incantation used in conjuring  

 

 

unless the higher power is magic johnson i duno what other higher power an atheist could be talking about. It is a religious thing, and unless atheism is a religion or at least theistic, how does it fit with an invocation? it just isn't a secular thing. but as i said if there name is on the docket they should go but this is just silly. Its just the big kids wouldn't let me have my turn on the monkey bars. its just wingeing about nothing. but in principle and law yes they should be able to and should have the right no matter how silly it is.

 

 

P.S. an atheist thing wouldn't be a problem for men but i have no clue what type of meetings these are, im just going to assume its the type where the public comes in and complains about random stuff the government wants to do..  for me its understanding what is being said that would be the problem as only around half the meetings are done in english, just depends whos there on the day. doesn't matter if not everyone there understands what language is being spoken. not everyone speaks english, nnot everyone speaks zulu. cannot be helped, both are offitial languages. bit more serous than not geting your turn one might think.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Brian37
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Tapey wrote:  Brian37

Tapey wrote:

 

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

don't they have anything better to complain about? Pray if you want to before the meeting, don't if you don't want to. whats wrong with that? I really cannot see a problem. 

The last time an atheist gave an invocation at a city council meeting the Christians threw a fit. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT, they are being hypocrites and want it both ways. If you read even in this story, not even dealing with the invocation, the rule is that if a group is on the docket, they get to speak, when it became the atheist's turn, they ended the meeting before the atheists could speak.

If you find discrimination acceptable, then yea.

They want their prayers, they don't want to share the invocation ceremony with non-Christians. It is a back of the bus attitude.

If you think it is ok, then go to your local city council and ask them if YOU can give an atheist invocation and see what they say.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Utah+court+upholds+atheist%27s+prayer+before+council+meetings.+%28Around...-a0102275208

http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/02/14/south-carolina-atheists-invocation-denied.htm

im sorry this is just childish. the atheist wants to pray? for what? to what? it makes no sense for them to do it anyway. look if it says all that are on the docket get to, then they should. but its rather silly. rather making a mockery of a serious meeting.

 

here is the defination

in·vo·ca·tion play_w2("I0218200") (nv-kshn)

n. 1. The act or an instance of invoking, especially an appeal to a higher power for assistance. 2. A prayer or other formula used in invoking, as at the opening of a religious service. 3. a. The act of conjuring up a spirit by incantation. b. An incantation used in conjuring  

 

 

unless the higher power is magic johnson i duno what other higher power an atheist could be talking about. It is a religious thing, and unless atheism is a religion or at least theistic, how does it fit with an invocation? it just isn't a secular thing. but as i said if there name is on the docket they should go but this is just silly. Its just the big kids wouldn't let me have my turn on the monkey bars. its just wingeing about nothing. but in principle and law yes they should be able to and should have the right no matter how silly it is.

 

 

P.S. an atheist thing wouldn't be a problem for men but i have no clue what type of meetings these are, im just going to assume its the type where the public comes in and complains about random stuff the government wants to do..  for me its understanding what is being said that would be the problem as only around half the meetings are done in english, just depends whos there on the day. doesn't matter if not everyone there understands what language is being spoken. not everyone speaks english, nnot everyone speaks zulu. cannot be helped, both are offitial languages. bit more serous than not geting your turn one might think.

Again Tapey, if you think it is "childish" then go to your next city council meeting and offer an atheist invocation. Or, if you know a Jew or Muslim, offer them for an invocation. I don't know where you live, but there are far too many places still in America where the invocation is dominated and restricted to Christians.

THERE IS a reason for that, because they think that Jesus owns our country. They do not understand equality or government neutrality. Equality to these types is as long as we don't ask to do the same thing in the same venue. These are the same types of people who bitched when Muslim Keith Ellison and CONGRESSMAN LEGALLY swore in on a Koran instead of a bible.

Whatdoes this have to do with language, I never said anything about speaking other languages? The invocation is a PUBLIC ceremony, and as such it must be an accessable to all, otherwise it should be neutral, OR not done at all. What is wrong is that Christians pray to Jesus and think that it is their government that supports their god. "No religious test" is in our constitution.

 

When in Rome? Please tell me that is not your argument. I expect that out of theists, but WOW?

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


pauljohntheskeptic
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Tapey wrote:  Brian37

Tapey wrote:

 

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

don't they have anything better to complain about? Pray if you want to before the meeting, don't if you don't want to. whats wrong with that? I really cannot see a problem. 

The last time an atheist gave an invocation at a city council meeting the Christians threw a fit. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT, they are being hypocrites and want it both ways. If you read even in this story, not even dealing with the invocation, the rule is that if a group is on the docket, they get to speak, when it became the atheist's turn, they ended the meeting before the atheists could speak.

If you find discrimination acceptable, then yea.

They want their prayers, they don't want to share the invocation ceremony with non-Christians. It is a back of the bus attitude.

If you think it is ok, then go to your local city council and ask them if YOU can give an atheist invocation and see what they say.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Utah+court+upholds+atheist%27s+prayer+before+council+meetings.+%28Around...-a0102275208

http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/02/14/south-carolina-atheists-invocation-denied.htm

im sorry this is just childish. the atheist wants to pray? for what? to what? it makes no sense for them to do it anyway. look if it says all that are on the docket get to, then they should. but its rather silly. rather making a mockery of a serious meeting.

 

here is the defination

in·vo·ca·tion play_w2("I0218200") (nv-kshn)

n. 1. The act or an instance of invoking, especially an appeal to a higher power for assistance. 2. A prayer or other formula used in invoking, as at the opening of a religious service. 3. a. The act of conjuring up a spirit by incantation. b. An incantation used in conjuring  

 

 

unless the higher power is magic johnson i duno what other higher power an atheist could be talking about. It is a religious thing, and unless atheism is a religion or at least theistic, how does it fit with an invocation? it just isn't a secular thing. but as i said if there name is on the docket they should go but this is just silly. Its just the big kids wouldn't let me have my turn on the monkey bars. its just wingeing about nothing. but in principle and law yes they should be able to and should have the right no matter how silly it is.

 

 

P.S. an atheist thing wouldn't be a problem for men but i have no clue what type of meetings these are, im just going to assume its the type where the public comes in and complains about random stuff the government wants to do..  for me its understanding what is being said that would be the problem as only around half the meetings are done in english, just depends whos there on the day. doesn't matter if not everyone there understands what language is being spoken. not everyone speaks english, nnot everyone speaks zulu. cannot be helped, both are offitial languages. bit more serous than not geting your turn one might think.

I agree what exactly is an atheist invocation?

What needs to happen is the prayers need to go away, not just take turns on praying to various imaginary gods by various denominations of fantasy priests. Pray on your own time and in your own place, not on my tax dollars. They can believe in any fairy tale they want, but doing so in a government setting is just disrespectful.

The government in the US is suppsedly not to establish a religion or advocate a specific one, which is where this half-assed taking turns shit comes from.

You got it as bad in SA with 2 languages, though hispanics want it in bothe Spanish & English, so far not.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Tapey
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Brian37 wrote:Tapey wrote: 

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

 

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

don't they have anything better to complain about? Pray if you want to before the meeting, don't if you don't want to. whats wrong with that? I really cannot see a problem. 

The last time an atheist gave an invocation at a city council meeting the Christians threw a fit. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT, they are being hypocrites and want it both ways. If you read even in this story, not even dealing with the invocation, the rule is that if a group is on the docket, they get to speak, when it became the atheist's turn, they ended the meeting before the atheists could speak.

If you find discrimination acceptable, then yea.

They want their prayers, they don't want to share the invocation ceremony with non-Christians. It is a back of the bus attitude.

If you think it is ok, then go to your local city council and ask them if YOU can give an atheist invocation and see what they say.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Utah+court+upholds+atheist%27s+prayer+before+council+meetings.+%28Around...-a0102275208

http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/02/14/south-carolina-atheists-invocation-denied.htm

im sorry this is just childish. the atheist wants to pray? for what? to what? it makes no sense for them to do it anyway. look if it says all that are on the docket get to, then they should. but its rather silly. rather making a mockery of a serious meeting.

 

here is the defination

in·vo·ca·tion play_w2("I0218200") (nv-kshn)

n. 1. The act or an instance of invoking, especially an appeal to a higher power for assistance. 2. A prayer or other formula used in invoking, as at the opening of a religious service. 3. a. The act of conjuring up a spirit by incantation. b. An incantation used in conjuring  

 

 

unless the higher power is magic johnson i duno what other higher power an atheist could be talking about. It is a religious thing, and unless atheism is a religion or at least theistic, how does it fit with an invocation? it just isn't a secular thing. but as i said if there name is on the docket they should go but this is just silly. Its just the big kids wouldn't let me have my turn on the monkey bars. its just wingeing about nothing. but in principle and law yes they should be able to and should have the right no matter how silly it is.

 

 

P.S. an atheist thing wouldn't be a problem for men but i have no clue what type of meetings these are, im just going to assume its the type where the public comes in and complains about random stuff the government wants to do..  for me its understanding what is being said that would be the problem as only around half the meetings are done in english, just depends whos there on the day. doesn't matter if not everyone there understands what language is being spoken. not everyone speaks english, nnot everyone speaks zulu. cannot be helped, both are offitial languages. bit more serous than not geting your turn one might think.

Again Tapey, if you think it is "childish" then go to your next city council meeting and offer an atheist invocation. Or, if you know a Jew or Muslim, offer them for an invocation. I don't know where you live, but there are far too many places still in America where the invocation is dominated and restricted to Christians.

THERE IS a reason for that, because they think that Jesus owns our country. They do not understand equality or government neutrality. Equality to these types is as long as we don't ask to do the same thing in the same venue. These are the same types of people who bitched when Muslim Keith Ellison and CONGRESSMAN LEGALLY swore in on a Koran instead of a bible.

Whatdoes this have to do with language, I never said anything about speaking other languages? The invocation is a PUBLIC ceremony, and as such it must be an accessable to all, otherwise it should be neutral, OR not done at all. What is wrong is that Christians pray to Jesus and think that it is their government that supports their god. "No religious test" is in our constitution.

 

When in Rome? Please tell me that is not your argument. I expect that out of theists, but WOW?

 

no just my way of saying i dont care about this one. an invocation is a religous thing, atheists have no higher power to call. so to me it sounds like they just want to be included. like the kid with no arms wanting equal time on the monkey bars. in theory yeah he should but really what is the point?

 

look there are no invocations at my city council meetings. all i would get is weird looks. i live in south africa. i brought up the other language thing because that is an actual problem where I live to show what an actual problem is. look i don't actually disagree with you, i do think they should get there time but i just think its silly for an atheist to want time to do a religous thing.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Brian37
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Tapey wrote:Brian37

Tapey wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

 

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

don't they have anything better to complain about? Pray if you want to before the meeting, don't if you don't want to. whats wrong with that? I really cannot see a problem. 

The last time an atheist gave an invocation at a city council meeting the Christians threw a fit. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT, they are being hypocrites and want it both ways. If you read even in this story, not even dealing with the invocation, the rule is that if a group is on the docket, they get to speak, when it became the atheist's turn, they ended the meeting before the atheists could speak.

If you find discrimination acceptable, then yea.

They want their prayers, they don't want to share the invocation ceremony with non-Christians. It is a back of the bus attitude.

If you think it is ok, then go to your local city council and ask them if YOU can give an atheist invocation and see what they say.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Utah+court+upholds+atheist%27s+prayer+before+council+meetings.+%28Around...-a0102275208

http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/02/14/south-carolina-atheists-invocation-denied.htm

im sorry this is just childish. the atheist wants to pray? for what? to what? it makes no sense for them to do it anyway. look if it says all that are on the docket get to, then they should. but its rather silly. rather making a mockery of a serious meeting.

 

here is the defination

in·vo·ca·tion play_w2("I0218200") (nv-kshn)

n. 1. The act or an instance of invoking, especially an appeal to a higher power for assistance. 2. A prayer or other formula used in invoking, as at the opening of a religious service. 3. a. The act of conjuring up a spirit by incantation. b. An incantation used in conjuring  

 

 

unless the higher power is magic johnson i duno what other higher power an atheist could be talking about. It is a religious thing, and unless atheism is a religion or at least theistic, how does it fit with an invocation? it just isn't a secular thing. but as i said if there name is on the docket they should go but this is just silly. Its just the big kids wouldn't let me have my turn on the monkey bars. its just wingeing about nothing. but in principle and law yes they should be able to and should have the right no matter how silly it is.

 

 

P.S. an atheist thing wouldn't be a problem for men but i have no clue what type of meetings these are, im just going to assume its the type where the public comes in and complains about random stuff the government wants to do..  for me its understanding what is being said that would be the problem as only around half the meetings are done in english, just depends whos there on the day. doesn't matter if not everyone there understands what language is being spoken. not everyone speaks english, nnot everyone speaks zulu. cannot be helped, both are offitial languages. bit more serous than not geting your turn one might think.

Again Tapey, if you think it is "childish" then go to your next city council meeting and offer an atheist invocation. Or, if you know a Jew or Muslim, offer them for an invocation. I don't know where you live, but there are far too many places still in America where the invocation is dominated and restricted to Christians.

THERE IS a reason for that, because they think that Jesus owns our country. They do not understand equality or government neutrality. Equality to these types is as long as we don't ask to do the same thing in the same venue. These are the same types of people who bitched when Muslim Keith Ellison and CONGRESSMAN LEGALLY swore in on a Koran instead of a bible.

Whatdoes this have to do with language, I never said anything about speaking other languages? The invocation is a PUBLIC ceremony, and as such it must be an accessable to all, otherwise it should be neutral, OR not done at all. What is wrong is that Christians pray to Jesus and think that it is their government that supports their god. "No religious test" is in our constitution.

 

When in Rome? Please tell me that is not your argument. I expect that out of theists, but WOW?

 

no just my way of saying i dont care about this one. an invocation is a religous thing, atheists have no higher power to call. so to me it sounds like they just want to be included. like the kid with no arms wanting equal time on the monkey bars. in theory yeah he should but really what is the point?

 

look there are no invocations at my city council meetings. all i would get is weird looks. i live in south africa. i brought up the other language thing because that is an actual problem where I live to show what an actual problem is. look i don't actually disagree with you, i do think they should get there time but i just think its silly for an atheist to want time to do a religous thing.

If Christians want their "invocation" FINE, it amounts to nothing more than assigning a pep talk to a super hero. MY POINT IS, if they are going to open bthe business day with a "pep talk" then others outside their gang should have the same opportunity to offer their own "pep talk", even if they don't assign it to a god.

You are stuck on labels, when I am talking about venue(time slot). If there is going to be a set aside time to open the business day with "whatever", then that time slot cannot be monopolized by one label.

If you don't want to call it an "invocation" fine. But the actual time used to "rally" before the business day, should be open to all to make whatever presentation they want. Otherwise all they are doing is monopolizing a venue which they have no right to do.

But don't kid yourself, Christians will throw a fit EVEN WHEN another Christian who doesn't follow their left or right doesn't kiss their political ass.

So again, it isn't childish to offer up something that is neutral. If Christians want to pray to Jesus before city council meetings, I think it is stupid too. They might as well be praying to Thor. But the issue is not LABEL, but ACCESS to the time slot.

The time slot is an opener, and they have no right to monopolize what is said before the beginning of the business day.

 

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Tapey wrote:like the kid

Tapey wrote:

like the kid with no arms wanting equal time on the monkey bars. in theory yeah he should but really what is the point?

 

God, what a great analogy.  High five Tapey!


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v4ultingbassist wrote:Tapey

v4ultingbassist wrote:

Tapey wrote:

like the kid with no arms wanting equal time on the monkey bars. in theory yeah he should but really what is the point?

 

God, what a great analogy.  High five Tapey!

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Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
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Wrong.Again, you are stuck

Wrong.

Again, you are stuck on the word "invocation".

What I am talking about is equal access to a TIME SLOT!

That same "before business" time slot. Christians use to pray to Jesus. No one is saying that an atheist should want to pray to anything, that is absurd. BUT if there is going to be a "before business" time slot, that time slot should be equally accessible.

We could call it an " atheist invocation" and no matter how right you might be semantically MISSES THE POINT that the label is not what I am talking about, but access to a time slot.

This is no different than telling  a kid in school, that if they don't want to pray, or don't want to say the pledge before class, they can leave the room. It is the denial of venue, not what you call being done during the venue.

These atheists are pointing out the Unconstitutional favoritism of government promoting Christianity over all others. IF this council were being neutral, then the TIME SLOT would be open to all. Since the atheists know that isn't going to happen, they rightfully offer up a solution to that TIME SLOT that would not favor anyone. A moment of silence is a balance.

 

 

 

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yeah we got it. and you are

yeah we got it. and you are right but i still think its silly. I mean the time is set aside for invocations but whatever. everyone should have there turn even if an atheist really has nothing to do with the time. what would they say? a moment of silence? for what? a moment of silence really makes no sense in an atheist sense other than a show of respect but there are better ways of doing that. give them there turn if they want it but I have no clue what they will use the time for.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Let me give you another

Let me give you another analogy.

When one goes into the bathroom, they don't always need to poo, sometimes they just need to pee. Sometimes they simply need to wash their hands. No one in their right mind today would advocate banning someone from a bathroom because they only want to pee, or simply want to wash their hands.

AGAIN, you falsely make this about semantics, when I am talking about access and denial of access.

If a government business day is going to have a time slot before the open of business to say ANYTHING, then that time slot should be either open to all, or neutral. What cannot be done is have a monopoly on that time slot. That would be like denying someone use of a public bathroom because they only needed to wash their hands.

IF these Christians are going to use this time slot, then they cannot deny others that same time slot. Of course an atheist is not going to use that time slot to pray. NO DUH! But if it is going to be used at all then it has to be available to all. If an atheist wants to open a city council meeting quoting Darwin, that wouldn't mean they are praying.  The denial of access is what these atheists are objecting to. They are not fighting for their right to pray.

That time slot can be filled with anything. My point is merely that if Christians are going to use it, they cannot monopolize it.

 

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Tapey wrote:yeah we got it.

Tapey wrote:

yeah we got it. and you are right but i still think its silly. I mean the time is set aside for invocations but whatever. everyone should have there turn even if an atheist really has nothing to do with the time. what would they say? a moment of silence? for what? a moment of silence really makes no sense in an atheist sense other than a show of respect but there are better ways of doing that. give them there turn if they want it but I have no clue what they will use the time for.

Again it is NOT silly. If you as an atheist want to be treated equally you should not let this go. If I could give an "opening statement" before the open of city business, I would use it to promote science and education. So that "time slot" is important because it gives(or should give us, if it were open to all) an opportunity to counterbalance their superstitions.

I'd also use that "time slot" to quote Jefferson and his objections to pulpit politics and magic.

There can be only 3 options.

1. Neutrality

2. Let it all in

3. Keep it all out

What is happening that should not be happening is what Christians are doing in monopolizing that time slot for their invocations in promoting Jesus as the "wink wink" (unofficial/official favorite god of the government).

They need to be treated like the children they are acting like. What does a parent with two kids do when one refuses to share the toy? They take it away. So if anyone is being childish the Christians are. If they don't want to share the time slot, then they shouldn't be using it themselves. If there is to be a time slot, it needs to be open to all or neutral.


 

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I choose keep it all out.

I choose keep it all out. Its all just silly anyway. atheist and theist.


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Tapey wrote:I choose keep it

Tapey wrote:

I choose keep it all out. Its all just silly anyway. atheist and theist.

I would tend to agree, but the reality is that won't happen. Since that won't happen I think we should use the time slot ourselves to counter fictional absurdity with reality.

You could outlaw smoking too, but all that would do is push it underground. I'd rather have a moment of silence OR take turns since getting rid of it is impractical and wont happen.

I think it is a local by local situation. What cannot continue in any case is the monopoly.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37