The Great Catholiic Cover-Up by Christopher Hitchens

Ken G.
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The Great Catholiic Cover-Up by Christopher Hitchens

     check -out the stoy here  www.slate.com/id/2247861/ it makes you wonder ,just how much of this child raping priest it will take before people say ENOUGH !!! close this institution down it serves no purpose.

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i strongly agree although

i strongly agree although there aren't any new revelations for me in this article.

incidentally, this is the first thing by hitchens i've ever actually read (though i've seen him on tv several times).  is his style always this purple?  i have to say, i didn't care for it.

 

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iwbiek wrote:i strongly

iwbiek wrote:

i strongly agree although there aren't any new revelations for me in this article.

incidentally, this is the first thing by hitchens i've ever actually read (though i've seen him on tv several times).  is his style always this purple?  i have to say, i didn't care for it.

 

 

He's only that way when he's been drinking.

 

 

So...yea, he is always that way Smiling

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Ken G. wrote:     check

Ken G. wrote:

     check -out the stoy here  www.slate.com/id/2247861/ it makes you wonder ,just how much of this child raping priest it will take before people say ENOUGH !!! close this institution down it serves no purpose.

It isn't that simple. HOW it is shut down is important. Pressure on any label for harm to a child is understandable. But to equate one label as being the only label that does bad is absurd. Harm to children goes on in every country in the world in every political and religious structure. It is an unfortunate ratio that repeats in human behavior, and has throughout our species history.

Christianity needs to die like every other super hero fan club, the fact that this took place and the reaction is label based is a distraction that allows a label, rather than the human condition, to be focused on.

The focus here shouldn't be that "Catholics" covered it up, but that humans covered it up. I am not by any stretch advocating a defense for such harm, but merely that human behavior is not label driven, but a artificial drive that we, as a species falsely cling to, when the reality is that all humans are capable of the same range of emotions and actions.

Christianity needs to die, not through force, but through appeal to reason, so that issues of harm to children can be focused on. Christianity is not worldwide, the only label that protects it's own when accused of bad.

 

 

 

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Why these kidfuckers aren't

Why these kidfuckers aren't being systematically dragged off to court on charges of aiding and abetting and obstruction of justice completely baffles me.


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Brian37 wrote:It isn't that

Brian37 wrote:

It isn't that simple. HOW it is shut down is important. Pressure on any label for harm to a child is understandable. But to equate one label as being the only label that does bad is absurd. Harm to children goes on in every country in the world in every political and religious structure. It is an unfortunate ratio that repeats in human behavior, and has throughout our species history.

Labeling (or rather, fear of that which is different and alien) is also a consistent notion found throughout our species. It's a defense mechanism that was completely necessary before civilization, and is completely displaced during the time of civilization.

It's inevitable.

Quote:

Christianity needs to die like every other super hero fan club, the fact that this took place and the reaction is label based is a distraction that allows a label, rather than the human condition, to be focused on.

The focus here shouldn't be that "Catholics" covered it up, but that humans covered it up. I am not by any stretch advocating a defense for such harm, but merely that human behavior is not label driven, but a artificial drive that we, as a species falsely cling to, when the reality is that all humans are capable of the same range of emotions and actions.

Christianity needs to die, not through force, but through appeal to reason, so that issues of harm to children can be focused on. Christianity is not worldwide, the only label that protects it's own when accused of bad.

In an ideal world, this would all work.

In a realistic, human world it would never work. By our genetically induced and psychological nature, we are driven to be averse to foreign concepts and unfamiliar individuals. This typically comes out as ethnocentrism. So in defending ourselves from foreign ideas and "strangers from another land", we label things for convenience. We then watch for danger... another artifact of distant evolution.

To quote a stranger I knew once; "Stereotypes... they're a time saver!".

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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mellestad wrote:iwbiek

mellestad wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

i strongly agree although there aren't any new revelations for me in this article.

incidentally, this is the first thing by hitchens i've ever actually read (though i've seen him on tv several times).  is his style always this purple?  i have to say, i didn't care for it.

 

 

He's only that way when he's been drinking.

 

 

So...yea, he is always that way Smiling

Ironically, I only ever read Hitchens after drinking. I kind of wish he stayed the Trotskyist he claims to have been.


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JonathanBC wrote:Ironically,

JonathanBC wrote:

Ironically, I only ever read Hitchens after drinking. I kind of wish he stayed the Trotskyist he claims to have been.

I have never liked Hitchens, even before his warmongering and profiteering. Too much sarcasm and self-loathing in that tiny little body to leave any place for integrity.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Brian37 wrote:Ken G.

Brian37 wrote:

Ken G. wrote:

     check -out the stoy here  www.slate.com/id/2247861/ it makes you wonder ,just how much of this child raping priest it will take before people say ENOUGH !!! close this institution down it serves no purpose.

It isn't that simple. HOW it is shut down is important. Pressure on any label for harm to a child is understandable. But to equate one label as being the only label that does bad is absurd.

Good thing no one is doing that!

Quote:
Harm to children goes on in every country in the world in every political and religious structure.
Brian, I don't think anyone is contesting that.  The fact is, however, that the Catholic Church not only contains child molesters and paedophiles, but aids and abets them and obstructs justice and has done so systematically for many decades at least.  The fact is that the priests and members of this institution use their positions of authority as a place from which they can easily get to children, all while preaching morality to their families.

Quote:
It is an unfortunate ratio that repeats in human behavior, and has throughout our species history.
Brian, this sounds eerily like a defense.  It's a bad one.  The Catholic Church is responsible for the people it hires who have access to these children.  It is incidental, at best, that there happens to be child molesters and paedophiles throughout society and throughout history.

Quote:
Christianity needs to die like every other super hero fan club,
Fuck, Christianity.  the Catholic Church and it's systematic sexual abuse of children has fuck all to do with Christianity.  That's such an irrelevant comment, Brian, I wonder if you have really thought through this position of yours.

Quote:
the fact that this took place and the reaction is label based is a distraction that allows a label, rather than the human condition, to be focused on.
That's wholly incorrect.  People are abhorred by what has happened to the children and want nothing short of justice for the people who committed the crimes, and it's vile of you to suggest that people should rather focus on the 'human condition[s]' of child molestation and paedophilia rather than on the victim children or the utter corruption of the Catholic Church.  It is especially vile when one considers that there's no way for the perpetrators of these crimes to be held accountable, or to get the help they may need, when the Catholic Church is systematically denying that there has been any wrong, flinging blame on the families and atheists and homosexuals and demons (literally) in the Church, moving the criminals around to avoid detection and prosecution and using their authority to direct their congregations and their employees to not report the sexual abuse of children under fear of excommunication.  Brian, I will be concerned about the human conditions of child molestation and paedophilia when the victims of that human condition (the children, not the criminal adults) are healed such as they can be and when organization enabling the sexual abuse of children is reformed such that it can no longer harbour nor ensure the sexual abuse of children by the child molesters and paedophiles.  Until such time as the Catholic Church starts turning over all the criminals it harbours, I don't particularly care for the suffering of child molesters and paedophiles so afflicted by their condition and I will continue (and so might everyone else) to label the Catholic Church as exactly what it is.  Don't you dare condescend to tell me that I am removing focus from those on whom the focus should be.  I don't care about the child molesters or paedophiles except to see that they are brought to justice.

Quote:
The focus here shouldn't be that "Catholics" covered it up, but that humans covered it up.
The focus should be that the Catholic Church covered it up and continues to and has done so systematically for an unknown period of time stretching back not less than a century.  The very point is that the Catholic Church has systematically aided, abetted these criminals and has obstructed justice.  You're right, people shouldn't incorrectly state that Catholics covered it up, because only certain Catholics covered it up: those within the institution of the Catholic Church.  Never mind if you meant to say the Catholic Church, because you'd be committing a fallacy by exchanging an institution capable of such a massive conspiracy with individuals.  Clearly, the crimes against children committed by the child molesters and paedophiles are not merely their own crimes, for they were helped, are helped in their crimes by the organization to which they belong and in a way no organization but it has.

Quote:
I am not by any stretch advocating a defense for such harm,
Yes, you are.  You may not believe that you are, Brian, but you're defending the Catholic Church.  You may be all for going after the child molesters and paedophiles, but these people aren't facing justice because of the Catholic Church.  There's more than one criminal here, Brian, and the Catholic Church constitutes a criminal entity.

Quote:
but merely that human behavior is not label driven, but a artificial drive that we, as a species falsely cling to, when the reality is that all humans are capable of the same range of emotions and actions.
This is utter bullshit.  Not every human is equal in the respect you claim.  I am not capable of child molestation any more than I am capable of winning a gold medal at the Olympics.  I am not even capable of the level of sympathy you seem to have for child molesters and paedophiles.  It is simply false, easily, demonstrably false, to suggest that all humans are capable of the same range of emotions and actions.  I wonder what your point is really supposed to be.  In any case, you're just plain wrong.  The Catholic Church is at fault here.  The child molesters and paedophiles within it are at fault.  The focus here should be on both these criminals, but one of these criminals must first answer for the other to face justice.  The Catholic Church is more than just complicit in the sexual abuse of children, it allowed it, even encouraged it and it has covered it up an blackmailed people into keeping quiet about it.  You do not get to idly tell anyone, with your smug certainty, that the focus shouldn't be on a label, but should rather be only on the child molesters and paedophiles, because the Catholic Church isn't some mere label applied to these criminals, it is criminal itself.

Quote:
Christianity needs to die, not through force, but through appeal to reason, so that issues of harm to children can be focused on.
FUCK Christianity.  This is about the Catholic Church and the child molesters and paedophiles it harbours and encourages!  The harm to children does need to be focused on.  It is being focused on, but the Catholic Church isn't off the damned hook.

Quote:
Christianity is not worldwide, the only label that protects it's own when accused of bad.
This isn't about Fucking Christianity!  And that tu quo que fallacy belies your insistence that this 'isn't a defense'.  Fuck!

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Brian37
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Thomathy wrote:Brian37

Thomathy wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Ken G. wrote:

     check -out the stoy here  www.slate.com/id/2247861/ it makes you wonder ,just how much of this child raping priest it will take before people say ENOUGH !!! close this institution down it serves no purpose.

It isn't that simple. HOW it is shut down is important. Pressure on any label for harm to a child is understandable. But to equate one label as being the only label that does bad is absurd.

Good thing no one is doing that!

Quote:
Harm to children goes on in every country in the world in every political and religious structure.
Brian, I don't think anyone is contesting that.  The fact is, however, that the Catholic Church not only contains child molesters and paedophiles, but aids and abets them and obstructs justice and has done so systematically for many decades at least.  The fact is that the priests and members of this institution use their positions of authority as a place from which they can easily get to children, all while preaching morality to their families.

Quote:
It is an unfortunate ratio that repeats in human behavior, and has throughout our species history.
Brian, this sounds eerily like a defense.  It's a bad one.  The Catholic Church is responsible for the people it hires who have access to these children.  It is incidental, at best, that there happens to be child molesters and paedophiles throughout society and throughout history.

Quote:
Christianity needs to die like every other super hero fan club,
Fuck, Christianity.  the Catholic Church and it's systematic sexual abuse of children has fuck all to do with Christianity.  That's such an irrelevant comment, Brian, I wonder if you have really thought through this position of yours.

Quote:
the fact that this took place and the reaction is label based is a distraction that allows a label, rather than the human condition, to be focused on.
That's wholly incorrect.  People are abhorred by what has happened to the children and want nothing short of justice for the people who committed the crimes, and it's vile of you to suggest that people should rather focus on the 'human condition[s]' of child molestation and paedophilia rather than on the victim children or the utter corruption of the Catholic Church.  It is especially vile when one considers that there's no way for the perpetrators of these crimes to be held accountable, or to get the help they may need, when the Catholic Church is systematically denying that there has been any wrong, flinging blame on the families and atheists and homosexuals and demons (literally) in the Church, moving the criminals around to avoid detection and prosecution and using their authority to direct their congregations and their employees to not report the sexual abuse of children under fear of excommunication.  Brian, I will be concerned about the human conditions of child molestation and paedophilia when the victims of that human condition (the children, not the criminal adults) are healed such as they can be and when organization enabling the sexual abuse of children is reformed such that it can no longer harbour nor ensure the sexual abuse of children by the child molesters and paedophiles.  Until such time as the Catholic Church starts turning over all the criminals it harbours, I don't particularly care for the suffering of child molesters and paedophiles so afflicted by their condition and I will continue (and so might everyone else) to label the Catholic Church as exactly what it is.  Don't you dare condescend to tell me that I am removing focus from those on whom the focus should be.  I don't care about the child molesters or paedophiles except to see that they are brought to justice.

Quote:
The focus here shouldn't be that "Catholics" covered it up, but that humans covered it up.
The focus should be that the Catholic Church covered it up and continues to and has done so systematically for an unknown period of time stretching back not less than a century.  The very point is that the Catholic Church has systematically aided, abetted these criminals and has obstructed justice.  You're right, people shouldn't incorrectly state that Catholics covered it up, because only certain Catholics covered it up: those within the institution of the Catholic Church.  Never mind if you meant to say the Catholic Church, because you'd be committing a fallacy by exchanging an institution capable of such a massive conspiracy with individuals.  Clearly, the crimes against children committed by the child molesters and paedophiles are not merely their own crimes, for they were helped, are helped in their crimes by the organization to which they belong and in a way no organization but it has.

Quote:
I am not by any stretch advocating a defense for such harm,
Yes, you are.  You may not believe that you are, Brian, but you're defending the Catholic Church.  You may be all for going after the child molesters and paedophiles, but these people aren't facing justice because of the Catholic Church.  There's more than one criminal here, Brian, and the Catholic Church constitutes a criminal entity.

Quote:
but merely that human behavior is not label driven, but a artificial drive that we, as a species falsely cling to, when the reality is that all humans are capable of the same range of emotions and actions.
This is utter bullshit.  Not every human is equal in the respect you claim.  I am not capable of child molestation any more than I am capable of winning a gold medal at the Olympics.  I am not even capable of the level of sympathy you seem to have for child molesters and paedophiles.  It is simply false, easily, demonstrably false, to suggest that all humans are capable of the same range of emotions and actions.  I wonder what your point is really supposed to be.  In any case, you're just plain wrong.  The Catholic Church is at fault here.  The child molesters and paedophiles within it are at fault.  The focus here should be on both these criminals, but one of these criminals must first answer for the other to face justice.  The Catholic Church is more than just complicit in the sexual abuse of children, it allowed it, even encouraged it and it has covered it up an blackmailed people into keeping quiet about it.  You do not get to idly tell anyone, with your smug certainty, that the focus shouldn't be on a label, but should rather be only on the child molesters and paedophiles, because the Catholic Church isn't some mere label applied to these criminals, it is criminal itself.

Quote:
Christianity needs to die, not through force, but through appeal to reason, so that issues of harm to children can be focused on.
FUCK Christianity.  This is about the Catholic Church and the child molesters and paedophiles it harbours and encourages!  The harm to children does need to be focused on.  It is being focused on, but the Catholic Church isn't off the damned hook.

Quote:
Christianity is not worldwide, the only label that protects it's own when accused of bad.
This isn't about Fucking Christianity!  And that tu quo que fallacy belies your insistence that this 'isn't a defense'.  Fuck!

That is not what I am trying to do here. I am simply saying that this goes on because Catholics protect their own, just like a lioness will protect their cubs. It is easyer to falsely equate morality to a label, than it is to aim introspection and scrutiny at oneself. I am saying that this should be one example of WHY labels are bullshit and that no label deserves a pedestal, THAT IS MY POINT.

I am not saying don't go after the Catholic Church. I think it is about time the world saw this institution for what it is, human run and not divine. It doesn't deserve special protection. And I am glad to see that asshole Pope on the hot seat where he belongs.

We have so much media today, that it isn't so much that a ratio is lopsided(on any given issue) more along the lines that it is more widely reported because there are more outlets to report it and quicker real time reporting.

I bet you there is a ratio of molestation going on in China, maybe not to the same degree, but I am sure it happens because our species is consistent in its ratio of behavior. China is a very image conscious society, so it would be less likely to report such things out of fear of embarrassment from the outside world. So there would be no way to tell.

I am saying that if you are going to go after one label, go after them all. Molestation is one crime, but Muslims, Jews, Christians, and even political gangs all do the same thing, they protect their own first and it is hard for humans to see that is what is going on. The Vatican deserves what it is getting now. And even if it didn't protect child molesters, it has also slaughtered people in the Dark Ages, hampered the advancement of science, and protected the pilfering of Jewish property during WW2. And even today through it's own narcissism promotes unwanted babies and the spread of disease. The Vatican's apologies are hollow to me and it deserves every bit of condemnation it is getting now.

I hope to see the actual Vatican building to become a relic myth of the past like the pyramids.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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