Why do people who believe...

digitalbeachbum
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Why do people who believe...

Why do people who believe in "god", life after-death, or "heaven" suffer when a loved one has died?

Isn't this a conflicting reaction to have when one has faith?

Shouldn't the reaction be joy and happiness?

 

 


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Being sad is a conditioned

Being sad is a conditioned response.

 

v4ultingbassist wrote:

I am essentially arguing that the emotion is instinctual, not turned on or off consciously.  You don't decide to get sad about anything, it just happens.  You may think very strongly that you're happy for them, but the instinct will kick because you know just as strongly that you won't see them for a while.


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Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner!

Gauche wrote:

I think the explanation that you suffer because you miss the person only raises the question of why you react differently to a death than to a change of address for example. If someone moves away you might cry but you probably won't wear black clothes and hold a vigil. If crying, wearing black clothes, and holding a vigil are merely expressions of your grief about the fact of the person's temporary absence and not an acknowledgment that anything unfortunate has happened to them or that their absence is permanent  then why not act like people have died whenever they leave?


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David Henson wrote:Edit: By

David Henson wrote:

Edit: By the way, I have been meaning to ask you - is your avatar Zamuda or Kaufman? You know what would really be cool? If You had an image of both in exactly the same position, dress and costume and periodically changed them for no apparent reason without telling anyone. That'll teach 'em. Bastards.

 

Kaufman.

That's a good suggestion, I'll put it on my list of things to do.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Being

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Being sad is a conditioned response.

 

Uh, yeah.  That's why I don't get your point that theists should be exempt from this response.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Good

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Good question, but I don't.

Then you have a basic misconception about faith. Spiritual and emotional growth basically come with experiencing the vicissitudes of life. Adversity can either make you or break you. But I am fairly confident that most people would attest that their faith grows stronger with the passing of a loved one.

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Why do they do so? I don't and I'm an Atheist. When some one dies, that's it. They are dead. If any thing I should be wailing any time a friend or family member dies.

You're probably disconnected from your emotions. 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Gauche wrote:I think the

Gauche wrote:

I think the explanation that you suffer because you miss the person only raises the question of why you react differently to a death than to a change of address for example. If someone moves away you might cry but you probably won't wear black clothes and hold a vigil. If crying, wearing black clothes, and holding a vigil are merely expressions of your grief about the fact of the person's temporary absence and not an acknowledgment that anything unfortunate has happened to them or that their absence is permanent  then why not act like people have died whenever they leave?

 

Since when is death temporary?


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digitalbeachbum wrote:You

digitalbeachbum wrote:

You said "no", so are you saying that it is never the case? As if it is 100% of the time for all faith based individuals?

I'd love to see the poll data on that one.

 

So find a poll.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:You

digitalbeachbum wrote:

You say this as if you have some thing to prove to the world...

 

Ciarin wrote:

btw, you can challenge my claims of belief anytime, you will find no inconsistencies, Eye-wink.

 

No, I say this as if I don't care if people challenge my beliefs.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Let me

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Let me clarify...

I am sad when some one dies because they are gone, forever. No heaven, no purgatory, etc.

If you are sad when some one dies, why are you sad?

 

Because I'd miss them. Duh.

 

Quote:

What if they leave your home after vacation? Most likely, you won't be sad because you know you will see them again next summer or maybe Christmas, but sure, you will miss them, BUT, you will know that you will see them again next year, etc.

 

If someone dies, it's not temporary. They don't come back from "vacation dying". Another difference is that on away, you can still communicate with them, make sure they're ok etc. A friend of mine is in Iraq right now, his wife and children can still talk to him by phone, im, facebook, and webcam. You can't really do that with the dead.

 

Quote:

When they die, your response is?

sadness.

 

Quote:

Fear?

I do not fear death.

 

Quote:

of the unknown?

I do not fear the unknown.

 

Quote:

You don't know that you will see them again do you? You might say "I will see them again soon in heaven", but in reality, you cry and are sad because?

what heaven? I cry and I'm sad cause I'll never see them again.

 

Quote:

It is a conflict in logic. Why be sad when you know you will see them again?

 

How will I know if I'll see them again?

 

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Why do

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Why do people who believe in "god", life after-death, or "heaven" suffer when a loved one has died?

Isn't this a conflicting reaction to have when one has faith?

Shouldn't the reaction be joy and happiness?

 

 

Death is 'real' we can experience a loved one dying directly.  Heaven is just an idea.  Usually when reality meets an unproven concept, reality wins.

Someone should do a study on grief duration/intensity and religious belief.  Do atheists take death harder over the long term?  It would be interesting to read about.  I sort of assumed that the heaven concept helps people deal with death, but then I thought about all the religious people I know who did not handle a death well at all.  I don't know enough atheists personally to make an anecdotal study on my own.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Whoa. I never said that

Whoa. I never said that theists should be exempt from this condition. I asked why, since they believe in what they believed in, do they react the way they do. If they really had faith in the whole "life after death" thing then what is the big deal about the passing of a friend/loved one?

To me I find it completely illogical to react in any other fashion other than happiness or joy for the loved one if you truly believe in your religion.

 

v4ultingbassist wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Being sad is a conditioned response.

Uh, yeah.  That's why I don't get your point that theists should be exempt from this response.


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I understand faith (of

I understand faith (of a religion) perfectly.

Faith (of a religion) is a belief which can neither be proved or disproved.

 

I am not completely disconnected from my emotions. I work every day to prevent being blinded by my emotions from the truth.

 

 

Paisley wrote:

Then you have a basic misconception about faith. Spiritual and emotional growth basically come with experiencing the vicissitudes of life. Adversity can either make you or break you. But I am fairly confident that most people would attest that their faith grows stronger with the passing of a loved one.

You're probably disconnected from your emotions. 


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Death is death. Once you are

Death is death. Once you are dead, you are dead.

And resuscitated individuals do not count as they were not already dead but only on the verge of death.

Once you are actually dead, you can not be resuscitated.

 

Ciarin wrote:

Since when is death temporary?


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I didn't make the claim. You

I didn't make the claim. You did. So you produce the data.

 

Ciarin wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

You said "no", so are you saying that it is never the case? As if it is 100% of the time for all faith based individuals?

I'd love to see the poll data on that one.

 

So find a poll.


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So do you really want your

So do you really want your belief challenged or not?

 

Ciarin wrote:

No, I say this as if I don't care if people challenge my beliefs.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Whoa.

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Whoa. I never said that theists should be exempt from this condition. I asked why, since they believe in what they believed in, do they react the way they do. If they really had faith in the whole "life after death" thing then what is the big deal about the passing of a friend/loved one?

To me I find it completely illogical to react in any other fashion other than happiness or joy for the loved one if you truly believe in your religion.

 

 

If it's illogical for them to react with sorrow, then you do think they should be exempt from the condition.  Otherwise, you are answering your own question; the sorrow is a conditioned response that overrides the belief of an afterlife. 

 

Also note that funerals and other religious practices regarding the dead can emphasize the person's mortal life or their passage on to a new place.  They don't necessarily focus on mourning.

 


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It would be interesting to

It would be interesting to see a study of this sort.

Personally, I have found christian people in general do not find much comfort in their faith when death comes.

 

mellestad wrote:

Death is 'real' we can experience a loved one dying directly.  Heaven is just an idea.  Usually when reality meets an unproven concept, reality wins.

Someone should do a study on grief duration/intensity and religious belief.  Do atheists take death harder over the long term?  It would be interesting to read about.  I sort of assumed that the heaven concept helps people deal with death, but then I thought about all the religious people I know who did not handle a death well at all.  I don't know enough atheists personally to make an anecdotal study on my own.

 


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I find it illogical that if

I find it illogical that if they have faith in their god, Jesus and heaven, that they act the way they do. And I understand that not all Christians act in the same manner as all Atheists, Buddhists, or any other Theists act among each other.

Exemption from any thing is an immunity from obligation. In a religious sense, the catholic church has exempted people with medical condition from having to fast during lent.

How you figure I "exempted" others from such a thing is silly.

 

v4ultingbassist wrote:

If it's illogical for them to react with sorrow, then you do think they should be exempt from the condition.  Otherwise, you are answering your own question; the sorrow is a conditioned response that overrides the belief of an afterlife. 

Also note that funerals and other religious practices regarding the dead can emphasize the person's mortal life or their passage on to a new place.  They don't necessarily focus on mourning.


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Why?Ciarin wrote:If someone

Why?

Ciarin wrote:

If someone dies, it's not temporary.

 

Silly me. I thought you were one of them.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I understand faith (of a religion) perfectly.

Faith (of a religion) is a belief which can neither be proved or disproved. 

I am not completely disconnected from my emotions. I work every day to prevent being blinded by my emotions from the truth. 

Paisley wrote:

Then you have a basic misconception about faith. Spiritual and emotional growth basically come with experiencing the vicissitudes of life. Adversity can either make you or break you. But I am fairly confident that most people would attest that their faith grows stronger with the passing of a loved one.

You're probably disconnected from your emotions. 

You have a "Mickey Mouse" conception of faith. That's why you're not a believer. Also, you failed to respond to my post.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Why do

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Why do people who believe in "god", life after-death, or "heaven" suffer when a loved one has died?

I don't.

 

 

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Here is my response again,

Here is my response again, in case you missed it.

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I understand faith (of a religion) perfectly.

Faith (of a religion) is a belief which can neither be proved or disproved. 

I am not completely disconnected from my emotions. I work every day to prevent being blinded by my emotions from the truth. 

 

Paisley wrote:

You have a "Mickey Mouse" conception of faith. That's why you're not a believer. Also, you failed to respond to my post.

M-I-C-K-E-Y
M-O-U-S-E!

 


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

 

Paisley wrote:

You have a "Mickey Mouse" conception of faith. That's why you're not a believer. Also, you failed to respond to my post.

M-I-C-K-E-Y
M-O-U-S-E!

Can you sing the lyrics to "Kumbaya?"

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Nice try, but I won't fall

Nice try, but I won't fall for your trickery.

Saying the word "Kumbaya" three times in a short period of time will cause Jesus to appear. He shall strike down the non-believer and take their brains.

 

 

Paisley wrote:

Can you sing the lyrics to "Kumbaya?"