God's advocate

Blake
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God's advocate

So, I started posting here thinking I could help some younger atheists with some debating advice and the like, but I keep getting drawn into debates with theists- theists who aren't even doing a very good job of it.

I'm not being as useful as I could be if I'm expending debating resources by using up the theists the others could be practicing on.  I like debating, but I don't need the practice anymore.  When I was 15, I did need the practice.

So, in short, there aren't many practiced and coherent apologists on here, so I would like to play 'God's advocate' (Get it?  I'm an atheist... yeah.)

In so doing, I will pretend to be a theist, and argue with a resident atheist (or a few).  It needs to be somebody who *needs* and *wants* debate practice- none of you seasoned pros (that might be entertaining, but it'd waste our time).

I think it'd be best as one on one debates, but if anybody has any better suggestions, I'm open to it.

Being on the losing side will also make the debate much more challenging for me.

It might be best to hold them in the atheist only sections, so passers-by can not see them.  I'd *really* loathe to be plagiarized by a theist in some argument for god somewhere- and I've seen plenty of that going on.  Also, if the debater is too inexperienced, I might accidentally win, which could look very bad!

That is all.  Please post here if interested, or with suggestions.  Replies from atheists only, please.


RatDog
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Sounds like fun.  I could

Sounds like fun.  I could probably use some improvement in my debating skills.   I volunteer for this exercise.  You can choose whatever topic you think is best.  


Brian37
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Ok buddy, other than "god

Ok buddy, other than "god did it" being you are playing "devil's advocate' here is what would floor atheists and bring them to their knees :

Independent peer reviewed material, replicated and falsified, that PROVED that a brain with no brain floated around everywhere and nowhere at the same time that demonstrate HOW AND WHY such a being would be concerned with our well being, with evidence of say DNA  evidence or GPS evidence of this alleged "god".

It isn't as if we haven't been down this road before. I don't want to spoil your fun, but it all amounts to this

"God did it"=Naked assertion based on emotional appeal.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Blake
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I'll let you choose from a

I'll let you choose from a list, because I don't know what your areas are yet (or what areas you want to practice)

 

I'll start from one of these absurd and unsupportable statements:

 

1. Evolution proves god

2. Atheism is impossible- everybody believes in god.

3. Quantum physics proves god

 

The way I'll argue these should be something you haven't seen often, or perhaps haven't seen at all, so it should serve as good practice for curve balls.

 

Also, you'll have two setting options:

Sarcasm on.

Sarcasm off.

 

I just realized that there isn't any forum at all that only atheists can see.  Some theist member is totally going to go mission impossible on us and swipe my posts to another forum and pose it as a valid argument (seriously).

 

 

Anyway, I guess we can do it in the one-on-one forum if we'll have an audience anyway.  If you could contact whatever moderator/admin is appropriate, that would be swell (it's 6:00 a.m. for me, so I really need to go to sleep).

 

Before we begin, would you mind if we release the rights to RRS and CFI to publish or redistribute, in part or in whole (providing the context is made clear and names are protected), the discussion in any educational material they see fit?  There aren't many dialogues that are open like that, and if quite a few of these are done, it might be worth archiving.  We should also make a definitive statement that the discussion is copyright, and may not be posted to other forums without the express permission of RRS, CFI, or the respective copyright holders.


Blake
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Brian37 wrote:Ok buddy,

Brian37 wrote:

Ok buddy, other than "god did it" being you are playing "devil's advocate' here is what would floor atheists and bring them to their knees :

Independent peer reviewed material, replicated and falsified, that PROVED that a brain with no brain floated around everywhere and nowhere at the same time that demonstrate HOW AND WHY such a being would be concerned with our well being, with evidence of say DNA  evidence or GPS evidence of this alleged "god".

It isn't as if we haven't been down this road before. I don't want to spoil your fun, but it all amounts to this

"God did it"=Naked assertion based on emotional appeal.

 

Actually, apologetics are a bit more complicated than that- doing it well involves cleverly hiding ridiculous premises, using good straw-men arguments, and throwing out unexpected and conversation-derailing red-herrings.  Beyond that, creating confusing logical tangles that hide the source of the circular reasoning in so many steps that it's difficult to unravel.  Also, using "evidence" for one thing to support another by correlation or inductive reasoning (that's a big one).

Successfully debating an apologist requires identifying these things, and being prepared to undo them quickly and soundly- and that requires practice with live ammo.

 

I don't expect to win, I'm on a necessarily losing side, with absolutely no evidence to back up any of those three wild assertions.


RatDog
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 I choose  1. Evolution

 

I choose 

1. Evolution proves god

It seems interesting.  

Sarcasm off would be better for me.  

There is one form called Freethinking Anonymous were theists are not allowed to post.  I don't think that it can be viewed by anyone with a theist badge, but not all theists have theist badges.  

I don't know how to contact the appropriate moderator/admin.  It has been my experience that they usually show up on their own if anyone posts something directed toward them.  

I would be willing to release the rights to publish or redistribute this to RRS and CFI.  How do I do so?  Do I just say that I release the rights? 

 

 


Blake
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Yep, you just have to say

Yep, you just have to say you release them.  We should also make a claim to our ownership of the text we are posting, and our right to release rights to the text, for reasons of legal liability.

 

I have messaged Sapient.  I'll compose the first part of the argument for you to counter after the post is made and we have access to post in One on One.


Sapient
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 Ok, I approved both of you

 Ok, I approved both of you to post in one on one debate.  I've renamed the thread as you can see, and posted an atheist badge on both of you to help remove confusion... or possibly add to it.

Theists are able to see this forum, and I think they should be able to see it.  It's just as much a lesson for them as anyone else.

Please let me know when you consider the debate complete so I can lock the thread and return your posting status back to normal.

 

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Blake
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Sapient wrote:Please let me

Sapient wrote:

Please let me know when you consider the debate complete so I can lock the thread and return your posting status back to normal.

 

Thanks.

This was actually a more general advertisement to collect responses from people who would like to have these kinds of debates... I didn't mean to ask for a move, but for a new initial post, since I'd like this post to remain available to any atheists who would like to add their names to the hat for the next debate (given that this goes well).  I can re-post this in general, though, once finished, so it's no big deal.

 

As it's 1:00 a.m., I will have to begin my argument in the morrow.


Sapient
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No problem.  I believe you

No problem.  I believe you have the power to create a new thread in this forum now.  If not, just send me the text of what you want and I'll post it.  After that, I'll put this thread back.

 

- Brian Sapient


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Blake
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Thanks, the post is made-

Thanks, the post is made- this can be moved back now.

However, I can't seem to edit my original post- some of the text screwed up and created a random winking emoticon.  Would you mind fixing that for me by adding a space there (or however it must be done to make it more readable)?


Sapient
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 Done. If anyone wants to

 Done.

 

If anyone wants to view the first pseudo debate, it is here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/19790

 

- Brian Sapient


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butterbattle
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This looks like it should be

This looks like it should be a very interesting discussion. I'll bookmark it. 

I'm willing to participate in a debate too, if events allow.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Blake
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butterbattle wrote:This

butterbattle wrote:

This looks like it should be a very interesting discussion. I'll bookmark it. 

I'm willing to participate in a debate too, if events allow.

 

Sure thing.  Just choose a topic.  You can select one of the other two I mentioned, or make up your own wild claim for me to make and defend- so long as it's fairly original a claim (so I'm not just restating somebody else's argument- too boring).

 

I can do two or three at a time.  I would be hesitant to do more than three, however.  I type fairly quickly, and compose arguments at approximately the rate I type, but keeping up with that many replies would be a little tricky since I am relatively busy "IRL".


Blake
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Crap, I just realized I

Crap, I just realized I screwed up my reply because somebody named Magus also replied to the One on One debate, and I thought that was something RatDog said.

 

I'll need to edit my post.  Please, people [Magus], it's a One on One debate.