Something new: ten word debating
Offline There must be a first cause, aka God.
Your turn.
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Offline pauljohntheskeptic wrote:Your definition,
Anselm's. The Bible's: I AM WHO AM.
Quote:all need first cause so does god.Begins to exist.
Anselm most stupid argument ever. Invalid at every level.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Presuppositionalist wrote:pauljohntheskeptic wrote:no comprendo
Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Craig's Kalam.
Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.
Isn't that sort of like an atheist of the gaps theory? Would it even be possible to prove that quantum effects are causless?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Offline BobSpence1 wrote:Presuppositionalist wrote:pauljohntheskeptic wrote:no comprendo
Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Craig's Kalam.
Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.
Isn't that sort of like an atheist of the gaps theory? Would it even be possible to prove that quantum effects are causless?
it is an empirical observation, which directly refutes the assertion that everything we observe has a cause, if that is treated as an empirical fact about the Universe, as a premise for the first cause argument.
We don't need to prove it, it is prima facie evidence that 'everything that begins to exist has a cause' needs to be demonstrated, and can't be assumed as an axiom.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline robj101 wrote:We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.
You don't know that. Unless you mean us as in me and you, but us as in inteligent life on this planet you don't know that forsure.
I'm pretty sure, the sun will burn out long before we approach the knowledge of what we really are and why. What we really are may be so base and simple, or it could be a highly complicated matter. This is why man created God after all, helps simplify things. Oops that's more than 10 words, but so was yours =)
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
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Offline There must be a first cause, aka God.
Your turn.
Cause not necessarily greater than effect. Infinite causal chain not necessarily infinite in time.
(sorry couldn't get it down to ten words, but it needed to be said. Arguments based on impossibility of infinite regress are not valid)
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline There must be a first cause, aka God.
Your turn.
Naked assertion. No proof that first cause must be God.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline free_thinker wrote:What makes you so certain that this "first cause" was god?
not mechanical => free
Powerful cause outside spacetime (obvious), free = God.
Invalid. Causes are not necessarily mechanical or physical.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Presuppositionalist has yet to post a logically valid argument.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Non-sequiters plus naked assertions do not make valid arguments.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.
Speak for yourself. Statement of faith contrary to rational evidence.
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Offline Isn't that sort of like an atheist of the gaps theory? Would it even be possible to prove that quantum effects are causless?
No. Bell's proven for reference frames. Learn physics and logic.
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Offline Presuppositionalist's world-view is based on a series of invalid arguments.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline free_thinker wrote:What makes you so certain that this "first cause" was god?
not mechanical => free
Powerful cause outside spacetime (obvious), free = God.
Outside space-time not necessarily God. Free = random.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline free_thinker wrote:"Not mechanical?"
Assumption.
The leading hypothesis is that quantum fluctuation caused it.
Oh? Then why wasn't creation sooner or later? Sounds fishy.
Timing of creation event is governed by quantum random process
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Outside space-time not necessarily God. Free = random.
Further: !XYZTetc.=DNE. Relativistic information yielded from variable input only.
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Offline Timing of creation event is governed by quantum random process
Chronological position nonexistent in regards to relative genesis of spacetime.
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Offline robj101 wrote:We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.
Speak for yourself. Statement of faith contrary to rational evidence.
To exactly what evidence do you refer good sir.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
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Offline To exactly what evidence do you refer good sir.
We largely do. Plot T v.s 'gaps' in our lifetime.
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Offline This format has some real benefit - it gets Presup to crystallize his various 'arguments' and makes it easier to expose the flaws without letting him obfuscate the weaknesses in a lot of verbiage.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.
AHHA!!! GOD CAUSES QUANTUM FLUCTUATIONS!!!
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Offline NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:robj101 wrote:We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.
You don't know that. Unless you mean us as in me and you, but us as in inteligent life on this planet you don't know that forsure.
I'm pretty sure, the sun will burn out long before we approach the knowledge of what we really are and why.
So what if the sun burns out? That is estimated at about what 4.5 billlion years in the future and we are in the present working on putting people on mars. Can you imagine where we could be by then, most likely dead ofcourse but if we can travel into space and avoid the complete anihalation of our species by some disaster we could live on. And who knows how long we could live on for, and what knowledge we could aquire.
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Offline BobSpence1 wrote:Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.
AHHA!!! GOD CAUSES QUANTUM FLUCTUATIONS!!!
Former inaccurate. Later False. Cause implicit in many-worlds relativity.
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Offline So what if the sun burns out? That is estimated at about what 4.5 billlion years in the future and we are in the present working on putting people on mars. Can you imagine where we could be by then, most likely dead ofcourse but if we can travel into space and avoid the complete anihalation of our species by some disaster we could live on. And who knows how long we could live on for, and what knowledge we could aquire.
Undecanymic! Use ten words!
Lifespan of an ant likely sufficient.
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Offline Waffles are good. God isn't a waffle. I'm hungry.
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Offline
Undecanymic! Use ten words!
Lifespan of an ant likely sufficient.
My bad, forgot format, what the heck does "Undecanymic" mean?
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Offline My bad, forgot format, what the heck does "Undecanymic" mean?
Accusative statement. Adjective, not characterized as being of ten words.
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Offline Blake wrote:
Undecanymic! Use ten words!
Lifespan of an ant likely sufficient.
My bad, forgot format, what the heck does "Undecanymic" mean?
I can't find it either...un is "not", deca is "ten", and "nym" is a mail relay server. So you weren't using 10 mail relay servers.
I can buy that.
And please don't use mine as a mail relay server. But I think Sendmail is patched. 
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
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Offline I can't find it either...un is "not", deca is "ten", and "nym" is a mail relay server. So you weren't using 10 mail relay servers.
Suffix: -onym; word. Roughly Deca-onym. Coined for this purpose.
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Offline kidvelvet wrote:I can't find it either...un is "not", deca is "ten", and "nym" is a mail relay server. So you weren't using 10 mail relay servers.
Suffix: -onym; word. Roughly Deca-onym. Coined for this purpose.
Ah, a new word was made!
I am still trying to integrate "oxt" into my daily language.
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
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Offline Blake wrote:
Undecanymic! Use ten words!
Lifespan of an ant likely sufficient.
My bad, forgot format, what the heck does "Undecanymic" mean?
LOL cute. It seems to be a word for "not ten words-y enough" 
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Offline mellestad wrote:Isn't that sort of like an atheist of the gaps theory? Would it even be possible to prove that quantum effects are causless?
No. Bell's proven for reference frames. Learn physics and logic.
Which is why I asked a question. Don't be a prick. If you can't restrain yourself, let Bob answer.
So research has shown a) We don't know the cause of quantum fluctiation or b) We know it is causless?
I am confused about how you would know something is without cause, instead of simply being ignorant of the underlying forces at work. How do you prove a lack of cause is because there is no cause? It seems to me like there are plenty of things we don't know the causes of, but we don't assume they are causless.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Offline Which is why I asked a question. Don't be a prick. If you can't restrain yourself, let Bob answer.
Undecanymic! For f*ck's sake.
So research has shown a) We don't know the cause of quantum fluctiation or b) We know it is causless?
Neither.
I am confused about how you would know something is without cause, instead of simply being ignorant of the underlying forces at work. How do you prove a lack of cause is because there is no cause?
Bell's!
Learn to Google. PLEASE!
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Offline mellestad wrote:Which is why I asked a question. Don't be a prick. If you can't restrain yourself, let Bob answer.
Undecanymic! For f*ck's sake.
Quote:So research has shown a) We don't know the cause of quantum fluctiation or b) We know it is causless?Neither.
Quote:I am confused about how you would know something is without cause, instead of simply being ignorant of the underlying forces at work. How do you prove a lack of cause is because there is no cause?Bell's!
Learn to Google. PLEASE!
Uh-huh. http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath521/kmath521.htm It is all so clear to me now.
Like I said, maybe Bob or someone else can actually take a stab at answering my question instead of telling me to take a physics course.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Offline Blake wrote:mellestad wrote:Which is why I asked a question. Don't be a prick. If you can't restrain yourself, let Bob answer.
Undecanymic! For f*ck's sake.
Quote:So research has shown a) We don't know the cause of quantum fluctiation or b) We know it is causless?Neither.
Quote:I am confused about how you would know something is without cause, instead of simply being ignorant of the underlying forces at work. How do you prove a lack of cause is because there is no cause?Bell's!
Learn to Google. PLEASE!
Uh-huh. http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath521/kmath521.htm It is all so clear to me now.
Like I said, maybe Bob or someone else can actually take a stab at answering my question instead of telling me to take a physics course.
My basic response was in post #69.
There could indeed be an underlying process 'explaining' the randomness. I think this is akin to the 'Hidden Variable" alternative to explain many of the weird manifestations of QT.
I imagine the possibility of a 'sea' of colliding sub-sub-atomic particles 
, like the molecules in a gas. The individual impacts of such particles on some larger entity would be essentially random, so close to random as truly doesn't matter. A random impact of sufficient size and 'direction' (insofar as that is meaningful in this 'particle-sea' will trigger a radioactive decay, or whatever other 'quantum' event is under consideration.
Doesn't really need to be that specific explanation, maybe the 'quantum foam', but that is the sort of thing which would quite plausibly explain the random 'uncaused' events of QT.
It doesn't quite explain the origin of the random sea, but if anything is assumed to have just always existed, it is arguable infinitely simpler than a God, so is certainly no less plausible than 'God' as an explanation, arguably infinitely more plausible.
However you spin it, Quantum observations mean that any simplistic assertions about cause and effect cannot be assumed to be unquestionable truths.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Yes, they do.
Do some research... (can't explain in ten)
Craig's argument dies by its own hand - examine the premises.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Don't understand because what caused god. Circular argument. Bad argument.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
The OP and his first post does not make any sense they thread should close
Then what caused god?
Your turn!!! Here I'll awnser me for you.
"God had no first cause because he exists out of time and space and created everything"
Wow! and you are 100% sure of this, how exactly?
"Because it says so in the (insert holy book of choice)"
Ahh, Great argument, very original, thank you for enlightening me.
God didn't create the universe - It is attributed to him.
You assert a prior and then exclude your conclusion.
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
Then there must be a final effect, aka The End.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
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So god being infinite is silly, right?
Bingo! You cant have infinite wisdom, power, or presence
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
Chronology misrepresented.
Information totality: Objective genesis is impossible; relativistically inherent.
We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.
At least not in my time here.
My Website About Roller Coaster Design
You don't know that. Unless you mean us as in me and you, but us as in inteligent life on this planet you don't know that forsure.
Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Invalid. Necessity is attribute to be proved, not just defined.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology