Is America ready for another Revolution?

Marquis
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Is America ready for another Revolution?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8498688.stm (opens in a new window)

In a speech before the 'Tea Party' convention, Sarah Palin stated that "America is ready for another revolution".

There seems to be quite a lot of these people, and Mrs. Palin appears to be their prime candidate for a leader figure. It would be appropriate if they formed their own political party, so that they could worship "the true values of conservatism" (Palin) in a separate reality, free from the burdensome demands of political realism. In fact, it is a wee bit weird that the US of A only has two political parties. There should have been something like 20...

However, the inevitable crash and burn of the American dollar is likely to happen either just before or during the next presidental election campaign. It is not a question of if, only of when. (My personal prediction is within two years from now.) The point of no return is long since passed. This may in fact bring Mrs. Palins ominous callout for 'another revolution' to fruition in ways that these 'Tea Party' retards (including Mrs. Palin) - and I say retard in the meaning 'mentally disabled by own choice' - didn't really have in mind.

In an imaginary scenario where there is no longer any police and powers of government, what would happen to the society that you live in? This is the measuring stick for how politically stable your country is. In Norway, where I live, nothing much would happen. There would surely be some looting and criminal rampage, but that isn't important. The point is that there would be no civil war like activities. It would probably be back to normal within a few weeks. The power lies with the people and not the government - in a very real way. I do however think that the American society has inbuilt tensions that have the potential to explode into long term periods of severe violent chaos if released. Every time I have been there - including a 5 month sustained period last year - the aura of hatred has been almost palpable. You can feel it. The common man in the streets has no fucking clue about anything and there is little to no social cohesion in local communities.

It may seem unbelievable that such a seemingly mighty giant as the US of A can crumble and fall - but then again, it seemed unbelievable that the Soviet Union would simply collapse and disappear as well. But fall they all will - and it is quite predictable why: You cannot spend more money than you have. Nor can you rule your populations with fear of the outside world and threats of repercussions against the disobedient. The ideological base of "The American Empire" has outlived its time in history. The only real question is; how is this going to play out?

Interesting times indeed.

 

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iwbiek
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the majority of american

the majority of american people are too fat, complacent, and apathetic to partticipate in an armed revolution.  they would be butchered like hogs, except even hogs would put up more of a fight.

if any revolution happens in america it will be a political coup.  if we call a spade a spade, people like palin and the tea party are fascists, more or less.  fascists always aim for the fears of the petty bourgeoisie, of which the USA is now almost entirely composed.  the only thing close to a proletariat in the USA today is the laboring immigrant population.  perhaps we can also consider the inner-city populations, but these are mostly lumpen proletariat, who can be motivated to help in a proletarian revolution but can only be persuaded to show moderation with great difficulty.

in my opinion if the ultra-right fascists wanted to effect a political revolution today it could be done easily enough.  i think it would only require a publicity campaign of a maximum of 6 months to make it palatable to the petty bourgeoisie.  god knows the rightists have enough wealthy backers to get it done.

my only hope then is that there would be enough of an impetus among the proletariat--be they chicano, anglo, or whatever--to form underground political factions in the cities with possible partisan activities in the countryside.  turnabout is fair play, and while the US government has been training reactionary guerilla forces to start counter-revolutions in progressive latin american states for decades (e.g., guatemala, cuba, venezuela, etc.), i think it would be very possible for cuban officers to be smuggled in to teach guerilla tactics to hypothetical american partisans, especially in the terrain of the southwestern united states, where i would expect partisan activity to be in full force.  i would also hope that what is left of heavy industry in the USA would organize behind radical union locals that would finally tell the big business fatcats in the AFL-CIO to fuck off and start wave after wave of general strikes.

if we are still mired in iraq and/or afghanistan at such a time, this could create the possibility for workers to use peace sentiments as a means of leveraging support, similar to what happened in russia in 1917.

in any case, if such developments ever start happening, you can bet i'll be on this very laptop contributing as much as possible in the way of articles and editorials from here in europe until i can catch the first convenient flight home.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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iwbiek wrote:the majority of

iwbiek wrote:

the majority of american people are too fat, complacent, and apathetic to partticipate in an armed revolution.  they would be butchered like hogs, except even hogs would put up more of a fight.

So, if the dollar collapsed and our government was screwed, we would be 'butchered like hogs' if there was some kind of revolt? Would our soldiers be working essentially for free (collapsed dollar) and slaughtering their friends and family members? I'm having trouble envisioning this.

 

iwbiek wrote:

i think it would be very possible for cuban officers to be smuggled in to teach guerilla tactics to hypothetical american partisans

If the military is going to be butchering anyone, I would hope that it butchers these people. If this ever actually happened, I suspect that I would be executed in the US equivalent of La Cubaña by these "progressive" death squads (or whatever happy, friendly phrase you want to use in place of 'death squad'). If anyone has counter-revolutionary thoughts, it is me. So you wish that we would work with the Cubans to make a leftist guerrilla military force that would literally fight against anyone on the right so that we could be transformed into some kind of Cuban or Soviet like society. If you were born in America, please never come back.

 

iwbiek wrote:

i would also hope that what is left of heavy industry in the USA would organize behind radical union locals that would finally tell the big business fatcats in the AFL-CIO to fuck off and start wave after wave of general strikes.

From my experience working as a strike breaker and reading about the decisions of union leaders, there aren't radical local unions. Some individual union members are radical, but the leadership of even small local unions is composed of people who actively work against the union's interests. I know that it is kind of a conspiracy theory to say that union leaders are secretly pawns of corporations, but it seems like that it the truth. And given that union members crossed picket lines and worked with me as strike breakers, makes me thing that unions are effectively dead in the US. Their leadership and some of their members seem to be opposed to the unions' interests. But, my view of unions has always been from the outside. Maybe things look better from the inside of one.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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'Revolution' as in sex and

'Revolution' as in sex and drugs in the 60s?  Or like the French Revolution, an overhaul in the government?  I can see something along the lines of a 'social revolution,' but I don't see how things could get so bad as to result in a political upheaval.  Our government system withheld through the Great Depression, and I don't see things getting that bad for us any time soon, especially since there wasn't much radicalism out of our last depression (the one we're in/climbing out of).


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er why would there be a

er why would there be a revolution... what is there to gain through revolution? America at the worst of times has a better economy any other country at the best of times. America has all your little freedoms. what reason is there for revolution? The working class in America has more money than the working class anywhere else... what reason is there for revolution? A revolution can only hurt America at this point in time.

 

unless im mistaken revolutions can only help where there is actual injustices going on... you know like apartied, colonialism, kings and crap and even then it takens a long time for the country to recover. Hell south Africa is still trying to  improve the situation after out own revolution because there is more unemployment now then back then, there is more crime now than back then etc., admitedly the people in power gave up the power peacefully in the end which just shows even when things go better than you expect them to it takes decades to get back into shape, even with good leadership.  So I am forced to ask what need is there for a revolution?

 

but lets just say yup revolution time who are the people are going to pick up arms? I highly doubt your average joe who goes to work comes home and watches the simsons has much interest in fighting? As i see it Only 3 types of people pick up arms, those that are forced, those that have nothing and fanatics. maybe there are more i duno but i dont see to many of those types around. Believing in a cause is differant from being a fanatic its the differance in supporting peta and throwing cows blood on people. Them tea baggers or whoever else may believe in there cause.... but enough to do more than hold tea parties? I just don't see it happening.

 

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Jormungander wrote: So, if

Jormungander wrote:

 

So, if the dollar collapsed and our government was screwed, we would be 'butchered like hogs' if there was some kind of revolt? Would our soldiers be working essentially for free (collapsed dollar) and slaughtering their friends and family members? I'm having trouble envisioning this.

you're taking my comment way too seriously.  this was part of my argument that any rightist "revolution" in america would be a bloodless political coup, because the american people, or at least the last two or three generations of natives, are too apathetic and lazy to take up arms for or against any cause.  as long as they were comforted by a properly handled publicity campaign (and it needn't even be that sophisticated), they would accept almost anything, as long as they didn't have to think.

as for the military, if there were a collapse of the dollar and a rightist regime effected an unconstitutional coup with hawkish aims, i would expect the majority to fall on the side of a leftist opposition.  if, on the other hand, as in the case of russia after the february revolution, a left-of-center government took power and insisted the army hold out with virtually no pay, i would expect the military to take an ultra-leftist turn.  either way, the military is seldom in the vanguard of any revolution.

 

Jormungander wrote:

So you wish that we would work with the Cubans to make a leftist guerrilla military force that would literally fight against anyone on the right so that we could be transformed into some kind of Cuban or Soviet like society. If you were born in America, please never come back.

 

never said that.  never said what my vision of the new society would be.  hadn't thought that far ahead, since the question was about rightist revolution.  since the situation is purely hypothetical, i see no need to think that far ahead.  my whole point is, cuba is one possible source for training leftist partisans.  the governments that result from such aid are not always the mirror images of the governments of their benefactors.  cuba left a lot to be desired for the soviets who aided them.  as for the US, regardless of how devastated we would be after an economic collapse and civil war, they would be in no position to strongarm us once we got back on our feet.  they're simply not big enough.

but i won't get into the nuances of leftist political and economic thought since i'm well aware of your views and i feel quite certain that we would differ on any government i would foresee, and i doubt that would ever change.  yes, i was born and raised in the USA--eastern KY to be exact--and my family goes back to colonial times.  my father was a teamster.  i lived in the US until just five years ago.  if there ever is a stand-off between left and right in the US, regardless of which side will be called revolutionary and which counter-revolutionary, i'm sure you and i will be in opposition so i guess you'll just have to hope the aims of folks like me won't succeed.  nothing personal. 

i can assure you that if there ever is even a whiff of proletarian revolution in the US it's no use hoping i won't come home.  though i doubt it would matter either way, since i certainly wouldn't be a major player.  ah well, if it's any comfort, there hasn't been such a whiff since the new deal.  i never understood why the american right bitches so much about the new deal.  that was the strongest nail you could ever put in the coffin of the revolutionary proletariat.  

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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iwbiek wrote:this was part

iwbiek wrote:

this was part of my argument that any rightist "revolution" in america would be a bloodless political coup

Oh, I thought you were saying that if the US government was weakened, then you would want there to be a leftist revolution of some kind. You are merely saying that there won't be a bloody rightist revolution and if there was then there would be a leftist-counter revolution.

 

iwbiek wrote:

as for the military, if there were a collapse of the dollar and a rightist regime effected an unconstitutional coup with hawkish aims, i would expect the majority to fall on the side of a leftist opposition.  if, on the other hand, as in the case of russia after the february revolution, a left-of-center government took power and insisted the army hold out with virtually no pay, i would expect the military to take an ultra-leftist turn.

I only personally know two active members of the US military. They are both far right wing. And when members of the military are polled, they self-identify as conservative in a larger percentage than the general population. I'm not so sure that the military would turn leftist or ultra-leftist.

 

iwbiek wrote:

i'm sure you and i will be in opposition so i guess you'll just have to hope the aims of folks like me won't succeed.  nothing personal. 

Yeah, it is nothing personal. We both just hope that the other's wishes don't come true. And no one's wishes will probably come true anyways. Politics as usual will probably move on. But it is interesting to wonder what would happen if the dollar lost most of its value. I just wonder what kind of demagogue would use that as an excuse for changing things to match his vision of America.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Jormungander wrote: From my

Jormungander wrote:

 

From my experience working as a strike breaker and reading about the decisions of union leaders, there aren't radical local unions. Some individual union members are radical, but the leadership of even small local unions is composed of people who actively work against the union's interests. I know that it is kind of a conspiracy theory to say that union leaders are secretly pawns of corporations, but it seems like that it the truth. And given that union members crossed picket lines and worked with me as strike breakers, makes me thing that unions are effectively dead in the US. Their leadership and some of their members seem to be opposed to the unions' interests. But, my view of unions has always been from the outside. Maybe things look better from the inside of one.

 

on the whole you're right.  radical union leadership is at a premium, though in the '90s the AFL-CIO membership became fed up with seven decades of big business unionism and the decadence of the lane kirkland years, as they demonstrated with the overwhelming election of john sweeney in 1995.

i would say, however, that if events started moving toward a proletarian revolution we might all be surprised by the union rank-and-file.  i don't think the spirit that created the IWW has been totally extinguished, particularly in the united mine workers.  the UMW has always been radical.  after all, it was john l. lewis who started the CIO and was the inspiration--unofficially--behind the 1920-21 west virginia mine wars.  many kentuckians worshipped john l. lewis, my father included, though he wasn't a miner.  i'm sympathetic but skeptical.  i think you would find a lot of radicalism in the united auto workers as well.

which reminds me, just what industry did you strike-break in?  because if it was mining, i'm surprised you're alive to type this, especially if it was in southeastern kentucky.

the collusion between union leaders and big corporations is not a conspiracy theory at all.  it's well documented.  not only that, but under meany and kirkland the AFL-CIO was directly involved in anti-leftist activities across the world, often militant activities.  i suggest checking out paul buhle's taking care of business.

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The one I'm using now it's covered up
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Jormungander wrote: I only

Jormungander wrote:

 

I only personally know two active members of the US military. They are both far right wing. And when members of the military are polled, they self-identify as conservative in a larger percentage than the general population. I'm not so sure that the military would turn leftist or ultra-leftist.

 

 

of course most soldiers are conservative.  they make a good salary, they're constantly told they're serving the highest purpose possible, why wouldn't they get behind uncle sam?  in 1914 the overall sentiment in the russian army was also patriotic and royalist.  but once the cash boxes and supplies started drying up, and the inequalities between officers and enlisted men became even more glaring, things changed quickly.  whole platoons deserted and officers were murdered left and right.  history teaches us that when you fuck with soldiers' money, especially when they're on foreign soil fighting for a cause that's pretty thin to begin with, their attitudes can change real quick.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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I think we're going to see a

I think we're going to see a number of states go bankrupt and then the question is will the feds bail them out. I'll think they'll have to raise taxes and print money to the point of causing some tea partiers/libertarians to support having states or areas secede and start new countries. Then the fun begins. Depends on what the police and army decide to do at that point.

 

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iwbiek wrote:which reminds

iwbiek wrote:

which reminds me, just what industry did you strike-break in?  because if it was mining, i'm surprised you're alive to type this, especially if it was in southeastern kentucky.

I worked as a strike breaker in the Southern California supermarket strike. It only lasted a few months. The union was clearly betrayed by its own leadership and some union members got jobs as strike breakers (off the top of my head I can think of two strike breakers I worked with that were union members). In the end the union claimed victory, but looking at the new contract that was made, it was clear that they lost hard. Before that experience I thought that union leadership worked for the union's interests. I just wouldn't have thought otherwise. But after following that whole incident, I believe that the union leadership was there to subvert the worker's interests and make sure that they lost. That really seems to make sense to me, but it sounds like a conspiracy theory.

No strike breakers were beaten up that I know of in that strike. Two customers were attacked at my location and the police had to visit us every now and again, but I never got an ass kicking. Every day at work I had to cross the picket line repeatedly (there was work to be done outside). The picketers never attacked or spit on me or anything. They just said mean spirited stuff. I got a kick out of that though, so it was actually pretty fun. And the strike breakers were overpaid: $8.75/hr for a 16 year old with no work experience.

Here's some interesting analyses of the strike outcomes and union leadership decisions:

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/socialistvoice/strikePR70.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/mar2004/supe-m02.shtml

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/ame

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8474611.stm

Actually, I think the real explosion will happen when it finally sinks into the mind of the Republican 'voting cattle' that they have been fucked up the ass all the time, and that nobody really gives a damn about them - apart from sweet-talking just enough to gain their vote. It's quite morbidly fascinating how that side of American politics is working. I had the dubious pleasure of staying in North Carolina (in a mostly small town and rural area on the Appalachian foothills, no less) during the last presidental election, which offered me a unique opportunity of watching a toxic stew of ingrown racism and unbelievable stupidity up close. There really isn't much you can say or do to people who think that education is the work of the Devil.

 

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As I read some of these

As I read some of these posts, I am surprised by the level of awareness of some folk. That gives me some hope.

However, let us look at the actual state of affairs. The development in the US industry roughly parallels pre-second world war state of decay in Germany and gives a huge opportunity for manipulation of the scared masses. To this we have added mass desinformation industry and a strong financing sector that increasingly uses public legislation bodies as their own departments. Add to that the size of US economy and its nuclear weapons and you quickly realise that we have a potential fascist superpower of mass destruction on our hands.

The only threat to such a creation can indeed be internal, but I don't think any of the radical right crowd are going to realise that they have been had any time soon. The feelings are boiling now, but once the trifactor of congress-supreme court-media are firmly in the corporate hands, the tune on the networks will change radically. Corporate war on democracy is not a strife without end: 1) take over media 2) destroy labor organising 3) infiltrate legislation 4) take over legislation. After that last step, the interest to heat up the public against legislation will dissapear. The rest of the world might want to choose a different planet to move to, however, because a system of corporate governance will need enemies to keep population in check.

There are trends that opose this process as well. Average american has not only a suspicion towards, but openly detests armed authority on own property. The whole system is a highly distributed venture and keeping check of the whole US of A using only mercenery military forces is not feasible. Police has been used since the start of the last century, but will be voulnerable to public opinion and pressure, especially if this public is armed. Americans like their weapons, so disarming the population will also meet tough resistance. Military is needed abroad, so they will need overwhelming public support to be able to continue their ventures.

So what can we do? Me personally probably not much - as soon as I am identified as the author of this post, I will be put into a nifty little database and marked for termination in 5-10 years or so. But what should we do? Divide and conquer. We have corporations and organisations that are actually on our side by virtue of ignorance - for example weapon producers love to sell stuff domestically and NRA can, with God's help (and our own), actually help us advocate for legally sanctioned armed resistance against corporate military forces operating on public property. Am I advocating arming the population? Yes. Not only that, I think we must train and prepare as well, strategically and logistically. Did I have this opinion 2 weeks ago before the last supreme court legislation on corporate funds in public elections? Absolutely not.

For any of this to have a purpose, we must support social sohesion in form of schools (#1: education, education, education), free comunal medical facilities, local food production and political alternatives - ALL of us must get very comfortable with the idea of running for office and learn and train for logistical and administrative work.

There is no time to sit on our asses any longer.

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LOL @ paranoia. There isn't

LOL @ paranoia.

 

There isn't going to be any violent revolution.   There's no way the corporations would allow it and your average american is too complacent with bread and circuses to care about violent uprising.   When America goes out it will go out with a whisper and not a bang.

The tea baggers are a loud minority yelling, "look at me. look at me."  Palin is their spokescow because no mainstream republican is going to take her seriously and she's playing the tea bag crowd like a fiddle.    Yeah, the right-wing whackjobs who are moving to Texas because they think it can cecede or teh same with New Hampshire to influence the vote but they aren't even influencing the electorate by a percent in NH.

The most we're going to see is a political revisioning where the  moral conservatives and the financial conservatives  finally have a parting of the ways in the major parties potentially leading to a political system with more room for third party candidates.

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Sterculius wrote:There isn't

Sterculius wrote:

There isn't going to be any violent revolution.   There's no way the corporations would allow it and your average american is too complacent with bread and circuses to care about violent uprising.   When America goes out it will go out with a whisper and not a bang.

America has been going out with a bang for over 50 years, or have you not noticed the kick-off nuclear holocaust in two highly populated cities and everything that has happened since?

Regardless of what we think might happen and regardless of who follows Palin where, we need to get comfortable with the idea that it really is up to us what happens next. When you say that corporations will not allow this or that, same was the case 100 years ago with working hours, segregated work force, low wages for women, working conditions and corporations were beaten on many fronts through labour/civil organizing and disobedience.

Many local communities today don't have the confidence in their own ability to get things done, but as a small number of right wing nutcases have proven, very few people can have very large effects if they are motivated. Motivation comes from success. Start building your community on small successes and watch the rest happen on its own. A simple decision to clean up the neighbourhood of garbage in the streets would do the trick: talk to the garbage collectors to make sure they have capacity on your route, get individual apartment buildings to make cleaning schedules for individual weeks. If people have a say in how its done and can see results, the next thing you know is that they aren't calling the garbage collector, but the governor's office to change legislation on the use of public space in the neighbourhood to allow them to make a park, so that their kids don't play in the streets. From there on the community will be hungry for education - they'll want to know how they can do the next thing on their own. Sometimes, if the cause is big and action well defined, you will have massive activity across the nation, like the Freedom Riders in 1961 - we're talking no more than a few people creating a movement within days that produced legislation on the spot.

There is no reason to believe that anyone out there will "not allow" us this or that. They will fight us, sure, that's how you KNOW it works. Simple organising of people to vote has gotten ACORN on every major player's death list, but they can't cut funding to a million local ACORNs operating on neighbourhood basis and collaborating when necessary. Fred Hampton and M.L. King were shot, but this is only more the reason to make communities the heart of the movement, rather than any single person.

The right wingers have seen what this is about and we must follow their lead. Every goddamn scum F student will run for office and not feel bad about it for a second, they have support of local communities and at times they even make sense. Some of them don't bend over to corporations and many of them don't want to - we can use them. Government by the people, right? We need a culture of people who think this can be done better and that we are the ones to do it.

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ZuS wrote:Start building

ZuS wrote:

Start building your community on small successes and watch the rest happen on its own. A simple decision to clean up the neighbourhood of garbage in the streets would do the trick: talk to the garbage collectors to make sure they have capacity on your route, get individual apartment buildings to make cleaning schedules for individual weeks. If people have a say in how its done and can see results, the next thing you know is that they aren't calling the garbage collector, but the governor's office to change legislation on the use of public space in the neighbourhood to allow them to make a park, so that their kids don't play in the streets. From there on the community will be hungry for education - they'll want to know how they can do the next thing on their own.

Wow. You are joking when you write this, right? There is no way you think something like this is feasible.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Marquis wrote: Actually, I

Marquis wrote:

 

Actually, I think the real explosion will happen when it finally sinks into the mind of the Republican 'voting cattle' that they have been fucked up the ass all the time, and that nobody really gives a damn about them - apart from sweet-talking just enough to gain their vote.  

Will the democrats realize the same thing? Look at all the naive people that continually buy into the lie that politicians and government workers can be public servants that work in the public interest instead of their own. Real change can't happen until a majority realize the obvious: we're all self-serving bastards.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Personally i think its time

Personally i think its time to bring in some of platos republic. People with power should have no money and no possesions and no privacy, atleast for there stay in power. not that that would do anything but atleast then you get people who dont care about self enrichment in power.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Jormungander wrote:ZuS

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Start building your community on small successes and watch the rest happen on its own. A simple decision to clean up the neighbourhood of garbage in the streets would do the trick: talk to the garbage collectors to make sure they have capacity on your route, get individual apartment buildings to make cleaning schedules for individual weeks. If people have a say in how its done and can see results, the next thing you know is that they aren't calling the garbage collector, but the governor's office to change legislation on the use of public space in the neighbourhood to allow them to make a park, so that their kids don't play in the streets. From there on the community will be hungry for education - they'll want to know how they can do the next thing on their own.

Wow. You are joking when you write this, right? There is no way you think something like this is feasible.

Not only is it feasible, but I will provide concrete examples of it working. Let me first explain to you, as others have had to explain to me and to my vigorous protests, why this thought is so far away from your intuition. In one word: education.

By education I mean the constant pressure on your intellect to form it in one way rather than another. This is done both by media and educational institutions. These have instrumental influence on your environment and formation as a young person and future member of the "responsible" society. Both educational institutions and media are tools, highly intentional in their form, content and purpose and they direct your morals, perceptions and at the same time establish borders.

If I didn't mention borders, everything I said so far would be just hot air. You could ask: what morals exactly and what perceptions? I am sure you can find all kinds of secondary motivations for whatever positive reinforcement I argue and we would be locked in an ever lasting discussion about nothing in particular. Luckily, I did mention borders. These I can present to you quite clearly and unambiguously.

In education and media you establish a border by understating or undermining the efficiency, morality, or other possible conotations of whatever you want to restrict for the general population. Popular organisation based on interest is the primary and principal freedom you want to restrict, if you are to do as you please with the general population. In our educational institutions and media all forms of organisation are down-played in both efficiency, morality and at times their existence is denied. We can start with the "government that can do nothing right" (lack of efficiency), over "unions that are a cancer on our society"(morally objectionable), to corporations, which according to the narrative and now legal president, are really not organisations at all, but individuals with interest and rights just like you and I (denial of existance of organising).

Other forms of organising, especially public organising, is simply called special interest. Women, elderly, young, college students, gay, lesbian, minorities - all attempts at organising based on INTEREST(very important to remember interest) are called special interests. By this measure, 85% of the population are special interests, while bombing and torturing people is our national interest.

You and I have been fed this educational model since mother's milk. No doubt we both will have intuitive qualms about it, but just ask yourself two simple question: 1) does organising work or not? 2) does success incite emulation?

If your answer is yes to those two questions, you are well on the way to understand why Fred Hampton was dangerous enough for the establishment to warrant assassination by the Chicago Police, who fired over 100 shots at him while he was in his bed. You are also well on the way to understand why a simple history professor, like the recently departed Howard Zinn, can become a front line fighter and symbol for generations simply by bothering to tell history from a different angle. You will understand why organisers with actual broad public interest are attempted bent or broken time and time again.

Now for a contemporary example of efficient promotion of community cohesion and organisation. It's usually apparently insignificant stuff, that has a secondary effect of fortifying the community and making them able to react to intrusion and assault by religious, legislative and corporate interest (the latter two being increasingly the same thing).

1) Homeless and for housing organising: http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/526/index.html

2) "We used neighborhood greening as a way to build people's confidence, increase community cohesion, and give people hope," says Philadelphia Green's Eileen Gallagher: http://www.pennsylvaniahorticulturalsociety.org/phlgreen/pp_norrisquare.html

3) National health care initiative (which would not even have been on the table if not for these people), international solidarity actions, local and national political involvement on the side of current and future patients (i.e 100% of US population) and an organisation that becomes a role model for anyone that comes in contact with them: http://www.calnurses.org/

4) WOZA - some 80+ thousand members, started off as a few women who had enough of rape and pillage in their communities and are now a world recognised and powerful organisation with tens of thousands of followers and sympathisers and an invaluable educational potential - "Based on the principles of strategic nonviolence, through our actions, WOZA creates space to allow Zimbabweans to articulate issues they may be too fearful to raise alone. WOZA has conducted hundreds of protests since 2003 and over 3,000 women and men have spent time in police custody, many more than once and most for 48 hours or more. These frontline human rights defenders are willing to suffer beatings and unbearable conditions in prison cells to exercise their constitutional rights and fundamental freedoms.": http://wozazimbabwe.org/

5) Today there is a large body of pro-bono lawyers, organisers and supporters nation wide who will back your activity up, simply because the road has been paved by the broad backs and examples of activists through history - this is also a form of persistant community cohesion.

For historical reference, start by reading Howard Zinn's People's History of United States, or if you don't have time for that, just watch a couple of videos on the work that the Black Panther Party did with public schools and public hospitals before they were destroyed by brute force.

You will not see or hear about this on any main stream media or outlet and no one in your educational system will teach you to organise for your own interests. But you can. Right wingers have found out that they can and are using it, albeit for someone else's interests. Time to wake up and start doing our own thing and at the very least help some of them regain consciousness.

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Here's a thought: schedule

Here's a thought: schedule something to do every day that supports your beliefs and ideas of how things should be. No matter how insignificant it is to start with, it will grow on you. If made into a habit, life to admire always trumps life to envy.

For those of you who live in the US and believe that corporations should not be allowed to spend unlimited funds in US elections, I will give you the initial small step. Consider signing of the online petition to amend the US Constitution and overrule Supreme Court decision in the Citizens United case to allow corporations unlimited spending in US elections: http://www.movetoamend.org/

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We're missing the obvious.

We're missing the obvious. The media hype surrounding this tea party thing has got people into thinking that a new revolution is coming. Ron Paul supporters believed this until the reality of the campaigns and the media treatment of those who spoke out about the Iraqi invasion to start sunk in. Liberal gathers garnered much more numbers than this ridiculous convention. You just didn't hear about it in the mainstream.

The movement is already on the decline and merging with the republican party:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/05/tea-party-movement-produces-new-political-organization/

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/32692.html

How far did the Ron Paul revolution go? We ended up with McCain/Palin as the opposition to the Democrats. And we saw what happened there.

If a revolution is to take place, it needs to start with the media. FOX is the most popular cable "news" network. This is how we got this current movement to begin with. Right now, they are controlling the national narrative.

This isn't to ignore the current economic crisis in this country. I myself am only partially employed as a substitute teacher. It's all I could find in this economy. I think the Obama administration needs to stop listening and reaching out to the crazy right wing that are controlling the dialoge and work to get the country back on track.

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v4ultingbassist wrote: Our

v4ultingbassist wrote:

Our government system withheld through the Great Depression, and I don't see things getting that bad for us any time soon, especially since there wasn't much radicalism out of our last depression (the one we're in/climbing out of).

 

I think a lot of you guys really haven't quite grasped the seriousness of the situation.

The dollar is, as they say in Germany, kaputt. Fucked. Destroyed. The only reason why it still exists is that so many other currencies are adjusted against the dollar (because it is a global reserve currency) and, consequently, if the dolar falls it will create ripple effects all over the world. However that may be, it seems a futile fight against the clock to keep the corpse sitting upright long enough for the rest of the world to adjust to the inevitable situation of having the US economy going bankrupt on a massive and quite unprecedented scale.

Have a look at this commentary by Max Keiser. It is 20 minutes long but worth watching.

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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The meeting after Palin get elected

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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So, this "dollar collapse"

So, this "dollar collapse" stuff is something that I've been contemplating for a while but I'm not really sure what to do about it because A) I really don't understand economics that well and B) I'm a 23 year old college drop-out working for $9 an hour just trying to stretch my paychecks long enough to meet each other from one week to the next. 

What should I do?  Should I try and leave the country?  What's going to happen when the other countries stop using the dollar?  Will I still be able to pay my bills or are we all going to be living on the streets?  I'd feel so much better if I just knew what to expect.  Can somebody fill me in please?  I like to be prepared.


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Gallowsbait wrote:What

Gallowsbait wrote:

What should I do?  Should I try and leave the country?  What's going to happen when the other countries stop using the dollar?  Will I still be able to pay my bills or are we all going to be living on the streets?  I'd feel so much better if I just knew what to expect.  Can somebody fill me in please?  I like to be prepared.

 

I would think that the collapse of the US dollar would have one hell of an impact on the rest of the world.  To think it possible that the US economy could collapse and not affect the rest of the world seems ridiculous to me.  We buy a lot from china.  We collapse, they take a hit too.  They sell to other countries.  In affect the repercussions would send industrial world into recession, just like how the past few years have been a global recession.  It's not like the US is isolated from the rest of the world. 


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Gallowsbait wrote:So, this

Gallowsbait wrote:

So, this "dollar collapse" stuff is something that I've been contemplating for a while but I'm not really sure what to do about it because A) I really don't understand economics that well and B) I'm a 23 year old college drop-out working for $9 an hour just trying to stretch my paychecks long enough to meet each other from one week to the next. 

What should I do?  Should I try and leave the country?  What's going to happen when the other countries stop using the dollar?  Will I still be able to pay my bills or are we all going to be living on the streets?  I'd feel so much better if I just knew what to expect.  Can somebody fill me in please?  I like to be prepared.

Start with taking a deep breath. Collaps of the dollar will only happen if China agrees to be destroyed financially. If we get that far, we'll probably have other things to worry about than just the collaps of paper value.

The economics you get to see and hear about are 99% bullshit and 1% content. Even the big ones have a totally skewed view and will explain nothing very little to you. Example: everyone shifted to buying gold in 2008 because that is "one sure bet", but in reality gold is not a necessity and given a wider collaps, 1kg of gold could be less worth than 1l of water. If you start with that bit of understanding, you are already on the way to knowledge about modern economics - the science of bullshit.

For now focus on things near you, stuff you can do locally. Can you grow your own food? Can you organise transport with others? Can you eat healthier at same budget? Most importantly - how do you drop back into college?

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Gallowsbait wrote:What's

Gallowsbait wrote:
What's going to happen when the other countries stop using the dollar?

 

It is probably a good idea to distinguish between "economy" and "money". Economy is the process whereby a population is sustaining its life, whereas money is a product which is subject to demand and supply. The idea of using money within an economy is essentially about creating a means to make trading simple, insofar that it would be terribly impractical for people to trade in goods and services directly (although this is bound to happen if and when the money supply exceeds the money demand, i.e. hyperinflation).

Realistically, I wouldn't worry about the American economy per se. The country is very rich in resources and opportunities for sustaining life. For a prime example of a fucked up economy, I would look to such a country as Bangladesh, which I believe has about 2.5 times the population that the country's national resources can sustain - meaning that they have to rely heavily on imports. However, it is a fact that the American money system has been abused to within an inch of its life. This is by and large a function of the peculiar American idea that all people should live in luxury.

When the dollar collapses - and make no mistake about it, the dollar will collapse - it will probably create a state of relative chaos which is likely to last no longer than, say, 10 years or so. Saving the dollar is impossible mostly due to the denial in the American people, who seem to think that they are immortal in this respect; consequently refusing to take the necessary measures to save the day. The sitation may in fact be described as corporate vampirism on the entire population, and it's being allowed for ideological reasons only. Large numbers of people simply refuse to acknowledge that the current situation is iron clad historical proof of the failure of "capitalism".

To survive without too much unpleasantness, it is of course necessary for people to get organised, primarely within their local community, for the common purpose of making it through the crisis. This is the way people have always survived in this world. Social responsibility is not just a buzz word which is thrown around by political leftists (although it is often that as well). The name of this game is credit. If you are a trusted and respected member of your local community you will get the credits you need in order to make do and trade without actually using money. The only people who have a vested interest in breaking up and isolating individuals and subgroups within a community are those who wish to create an addiction to the money system by making direct trade and bartering well nigh impossible. But it is of course a good idea to have something to trade with, i.e. a product that you can manufacture or a skill that is in demand.

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ZuS wrote:The economics you

ZuS wrote:

The economics you get to see and hear about are 99% bullshit and 1% content.

 

This is like a creationist's attitude towards evolution.

Whereas it is true that macro-economy is subject to chaos mathematics (because human behaviour isn't mathematically predictable), there are still patterns that may be observed; a bit like how you can predict the weather from day to day with some accuracy, but it gets fuzzy if you start thinking in terms of weeks. The issue at hand is the demand for American dollars versus the supply of this self-same product. It is no big match to set up a variety of imaginary scenarios for the US dollar to inflate beyond the critical point within as little as 24 hours. To not take this volatility seriously is foolish.

As for the Chinese argument, it must be noted that Russia has begun to buy up yuans on a large scale. It is also an invalid argument that China's economy is depending upon the sustained existance of a bottomless American consumer market. This would have been true 10 years ago, but China has come a long way towards a "Japanese" model since then, meaning that they have moved on from producing toys and trinkets in favour of heavy industry. It is true that no other country holds more US goverment bonds, meaning that they stand to lose a lot when the dollar becomes inflated, but it is also a critical factor in this scenario in the sense that they may suddenly decide to cut their losses and dump them all into the world market. (This is a "week" prediction in the pattern, however. It is a constant possibility which by an large hangs on what the US government decides to do.)


 

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Tapey wrote:er why would

Tapey wrote:

er why would there be a revolution... what is there to gain through revolution? America at the worst of times has a better economy any other country at the best of times.

Bullshit.

Tapey wrote:
America has all your little freedoms.

Emphasis on little.

Tapey wrote:
 what reason is there for revolution?

That it's a corporatist fascist state for example. That it violates every human rights treaty known to man. That it is canibalising it's own infrastructure, destroying the working and middle class.

Tapey wrote:
The working class in America has more money than the working class anywhere else...

Are you on fucking drugs? Never been to Europe I guess.

Tapey wrote:
what reason is there for revolution? A revolution can only hurt America at this point in time.

If you call the 1% super rich for "America", then yea, you are right. You might be right about another 10% of their cronies too. But for the broad public it would be an awakening and a liberation from institutionalised slavery.

Tapey wrote:
unless im mistaken revolutions can only help where there is actual injustices going on...

Like in US for example. Also you misunderstand revolution, since it can be taken up by anyone and any political interest. Reganites commited a revolution for the benefit of the corporatist rich for example, and the trend has been the same since. It's up to us to make that part right.

Tapey wrote:
you know like apartied, colonialism, kings and crap and even then it takens a long time for the country to recover.

Yes, like US corporatist fascist state.

Tapey wrote:
Hell south Africa is still trying to  improve the situation after out own revolution because there is more unemployment now then back then, there is more crime now than back then etc., admitedly the people in power gave up the power peacefully in the end which just shows even when things go better than you expect them to it takes decades to get back into shape, even with good leadership.  So I am forced to ask what need is there for a revolution?

Again, you fail to realise what kind of revolution is needed. There is always some revolution going on. AFRICOM (google it) is a part of one revolution, the same one that propagates destruction and instability necessary to keep the African continent in a certain place according to some interests. In Africa they need a counter-revolution to beat down the effects of AFRICOM, for example. In US we need a counter-revolution just to be able to give health care to children. Not accidentally, both Africans and us have the same enemy.

Tapey wrote:
but lets just say yup revolution time who are the people are going to pick up arms? I highly doubt your average joe who goes to work comes home and watches the simsons has much interest in fighting?

The average joe in Michigan does not have work to come home from. Increasingly likely he does not have a home to come to either. This is very good grounds for dissatisfaction and dissatisfaction is very good grounds for unrest.

Tapey wrote:
As i see it Only 3 types of people pick up arms, those that are forced, those that have nothing and fanatics.

People that went to Spain during the second world war to fight the fascists, totally unsupported by any government, they weren't forced. They weren't fanatics. And they definitely weren't destitute, since it took a lot of know-how and resources to get involved. Some of the best minds of the time were involved, poets and math teachers with guns.

I am the first to say that arms are of no use in a civilised society. Once we have a civilised society, we should look into it. For the time being, as responsible citizens of any nation, we have a DUTY, not a right, a DUTY to defend ourselves and others against fascism. It is not strange or crazy that this might involve use of force. It is not a mandatory consequence, but defense against fascism MIGHT entail use of force. You can not exclude that option from your range of possibilities, no more than you can exclude a hammer from your tool set - at some point, no matter how rare we wish it to be, you will have to hit a nail on the head.

Clearly our adversaries don't mind blowing up a country or fifty. It is concievable that it might require use of force to exercise our DUTY to stop them.

Tapey wrote:
De maybe there are more i duno but i dont see to many of those types around. Believing in a cause is differant from being a fanatic its the differance in supporting peta and throwing cows blood on people. Them tea baggers or whoever else may believe in there cause.... but enough to do more than hold tea parties? I just don't see it happening.

Tea baggers are not revolutionaries, but they serve the revolution of the rich against the poor at the moment. We serve their masters by bogging ourselves down on these trivialities and joining the shouting crowd. When shit hits the fan, they are not included in the circle of the rich and they are scheduled for destitution much before many of us are, and that means potential allies.

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Really, I don't see any

Really, I don't see any revolution coming.   Not in our lifetimes.  Probably not for a few centuries.

This government has bread and circuses down pat.

The romans did it for a long time and they didn't even have television.

This country is fat and entertained.   As long as no one stops the gravy train they aren't going to care about stuff that annoys the teabaggers.

 

"Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such."
Homer Simpson


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Marquis wrote:ZuS wrote:The

Marquis wrote:

ZuS wrote:

The economics you get to see and hear about are 99% bullshit and 1% content.

This is like a creationist's attitude towards evolution.

Not at all. Creationists do not bother to study or use evolution for anything in particular. I do bother to study and use economics for both personal understanding of the world I live in and financial gain.

At the moment I am training for quant development, which includes optimising frequent trade and derivative (risk assessment, prediction) software, known to you as the "magic models that crashed the economy in 2008". I have had micro- and macroeconomics as a supplement to my computer science education. I am currently being beaten over the head with some rather complex math involved in pattern recognition and machine learning, which are also extensively used for today's economic modelling.

I also own a business and am no stranger to people who do the same and more. With my experience and professional knowledge, I can tell you that what you are fed by main stream media and the educational system is an interesting fairy tale.

Tapey wrote:

Whereas it is true that macro-economy is subject to chaos mathematics (because human behaviour isn't mathematically predictable), there are still patterns that may be observed; a bit like how you can predict the weather from day to day with some accuracy, but it gets fuzzy if you start thinking in terms of weeks. The issue at hand is the demand for American dollars versus the supply of this self-same product. It is no big match to set up a variety of imaginary scenarios for the US dollar to inflate beyond the critical point within as little as 24 hours. To not take this volatility seriously is foolish.

Yes, there are patterns. Take it from a guy who works with the pattern matching algorithms - economics, as a subject and practice, is a tool, nothing more. Stop focusing on the hammer and watch the hand that wields it.

There is nothing special in the patterns and stuff that gets fuzzy, but there is something special in being able to maintain a military presence in 100+ countries for over 40 years and still have capacity to wage constant wars. NO amount of mathematical knowledge put into computational models that solve the "fuzzy things" will get you that level of performance. Same goes for the US corporate scene; different side, same coin. Some would have you believe that they are just actors in a free market, simply using their knowledge and playing by the rules, namely educational and media institution. This, of course, it pure illusion - I would give Santa a better chance of existing than an honest broker in the top tier fortune corps. It is given that decision making rests far less on economic analysis than on power maneuvering.

Is that system a subject to market volatility? Just as much as the bowl is a subject to the water it contains - it just gains weight. This system creates market volatility, indeed the people running it shape the market itself. The models I work on try to take these factors into consideration, not the other way around, my friend. These individuals and organisations use public-domain knowledge of economics simply as a convenient idea, never practice. Nothing you hear in your school, university or on the 7 o'clock news will ever make any connection with reality, other than oscure it. Goebbels could give you more insight in the subject than your macro/microeconomics professor.

Marquis wrote:

As for the Chinese argument, it must be noted that Russia has begun to buy up yuans on a large scale. It is also an invalid argument that China's economy is depending upon the sustained existance of a bottomless American consumer market. This would have been true 10 years ago, but China has come a long way towards a "Japanese" model since then, meaning that they have moved on from producing toys and trinkets in favour of heavy industry. It is true that no other country holds more US goverment bonds, meaning that they stand to lose a lot when the dollar becomes inflated, but it is also a critical factor in this scenario in the sense that they may suddenly decide to cut their losses and dump them all into the world market. (This is a "week" prediction in the pattern, however. It is a constant possibility which by an large hangs on what the US government decides to do.)

The amount of US debt accumulated by China is significant enough to grant them both financial and political interests in keeping it, no matter what the dollar value. I do not see US collaps as unlikely, but rather as inevitable and you can see these tendencies in the change of tone, especially towards China. The shape of the collaps is very negotiable.

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ZuS wrote:optimising

ZuS wrote:

optimising frequent trade and derivative (risk assessment, prediction) software

 

You mentioned the word GOLD earlier, yes?

 

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ZuS wrote: - how do you

ZuS wrote:

 - how do you drop back into college?

 

It's never been much of a "drop into" kind of thing for me.  It's more like a slow, agonizing crawl up a perfectly vertical cliff.  I mean, I make good grades and everything, and it's not the admissions process that stops me.  It's the money, and the fact that I still have rent and a truck payment to make.  Now that I'm turning 24, though, financial aid should be easier to attain since the government FINALLY recognizes me as an adult (even though I've been paying my own rent for the last four years).  But then there's the whole...  dollar breaking thing...  Can I just teach myself psychology from the library? 

 

Anyway, thanks for the advice.  I feel pretty confident about getting by when all this goes down.  I've got adapting to my environment down to an art.  I just hope people don't get too crazy and start killing each other.  I don't remember too much of my self-defense training. 


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Gallows

Gallowsbait wrote:

So, this "dollar collapse" stuff is something that I've been contemplating for a while but I'm not really sure what to do about it because A) I really don't understand economics that well and B) I'm a 23 year old college drop-out working for $9 an hour just trying to stretch my paychecks long enough to meet each other from one week to the next. 

What should I do?  Should I try and leave the country?  What's going to happen when the other countries stop using the dollar?  Will I still be able to pay my bills or are we all going to be living on the streets?  I'd feel so much better if I just knew what to expect.  Can somebody fill me in please?  I like to be prepared.

 

Just keep consuming away, Gallows, and try not to worry about it. Everything will come right... I can't see the US dollar collapsing without bringing everything down and as a result you'd be justified in assuming the dollar will not be allowed to fail. Things are going to have to be done a little differently in the future. Expect banking regulation, difficulty finding credit and a long, slow recovery.

Banks. First they fuck things up and then they make us pay for it.

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There seems to be a false

There seems to be a false pretense that the dollar is soley "fiat" money because it isn't tied to gold.  However, all trades done by OPEC are done with dollars.  This means that the value of the dollar is still tied to oil, and it isn't really a fiat system.  When the dollar last deflated, the price of oil rose dramatically.  As to which caused which is still up for debate. 

What will cause a collapse in the dollar would be either a tremendous spike in oil, or if OPEC decided to use a different currency for trading oil (such as the Euro).  If that happened, then the wealth of the country doesn't really change; the only thing that changes is the currency that we would use in order to be relevant to the rest of the world.  In such an instance, the dollar would be converted to Euros.  I don't think this would have any "revolutionary" impact on people who have hard assets; those assets (such as stocks, bonds, property) would simply have a value in Euros rather than dollars.  People who carry debt would simply owe in Euros rather than dollars.  The people that would be hurt the most are those that are extremely liquid (cash reserves), as their assets may take a bigger hit.

But would any of this cause a revolution?  Doubt it...

Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."


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kidvelvet wrote:the value of

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Marquis wrote:kidvelvet

 

 

The only thing is, all of those articles pre-date the initial fall of the dollar.  Oil is still tied, and Iran is still not a strong enough power to change from petrodollars to petroeuros.

In order for that conversion to take place, another large dealer would have to convert to petroeuros, such as Saudi Arabia.  This is why Hugo Chavez was a threat; Argentina is a huge oil player, and he wanted to convert to the Euro.  If either Argentina or Saudi Arabia make the switch, then America would be forced to make the switch.  Could it happen?  Absolutely.  Will it cause a revolution?  Don't think so.  Enough people here have hard assets that would require no conversion.

What may change is how investors in America view their long-term investment strategies.  While economically unstable, it would hardly cause a revolution.  Just convert and move on.

Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."


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Gallowsbait wrote:ZuS

Gallowsbait wrote:

ZuS wrote:

 - how do you drop back into college?

I still have rent and a truck payment to make

You have a good reason to own a truck? And what amount is normal for a tuition?

Gallowsbait wrote:

Can I just teach myself psychology from the library?

Short answer: no, but college is not there to teach you psychology either. You learning stuff is just a side effect of them getting paid to indoctrinate you. It is up to you to make this "side effect" the point of your education and dump the indoctrination.

Have you investigated possibilities for work after a finished graduate degree in psychology? I am sure the world needs psychologists and that that is what you want to do, but I am also sure that the world is not a very good employer at the moment.

Gallowsbait wrote:

I just hope people don't get too crazy and start killing each other.  I don't remember too much of my self-defense training.

No reason to worry about that stuff.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Gallowsbait wrote:ZuS

Gallowsbait wrote:

ZuS wrote:

 - how do you drop back into college?

 

It's never been much of a "drop into" kind of thing for me.  It's more like a slow, agonizing crawl up a perfectly vertical cliff.  I mean, I make good grades and everything, and it's not the admissions process that stops me.  It's the money, and the fact that I still have rent and a truck payment to make.  Now that I'm turning 24, though, financial aid should be easier to attain since the government FINALLY recognizes me as an adult (even though I've been paying my own rent for the last four years).  But then there's the whole...  dollar breaking thing...  Can I just teach myself psychology from the library? 

 

Anyway, thanks for the advice.  I feel pretty confident about getting by when all this goes down.  I've got adapting to my environment down to an art.  I just hope people don't get too crazy and start killing each other.  I don't remember too much of my self-defense training. 

 

gallows, i think you're taking this stuff a bit too seriously.  history has proved that the capitalist world order is extremely resilient. 

the possibility of a violent revolution in america, social or reactionary, is nil.  that's why men like trotsky scrambled so hard to foster any kind of revolutionary feeling in 1930s and '40s america: they knew it would soon be too late.  the smokescreen reforms of the new deal and the hijacking of antifascist sentiment by right-wing jingoism in the latter days of WWII were the final nails in the coffin of the american proletariat.  contrary to what stupid, short-sighted conservative pundits like ann coulter think, FDR was the bourgeoisie's savior.  

as has been stressed already, the average american is too fat and sedated to effect any kind of violent uprising, and those, for lack of a better term, "new proletarian" groups that have entered american society throughout its history, i.e., those with the most revolutionary potential--the irish, the italians, the slavs, the african-americans, and most recently the chicanos--are eventually absorbed into the petty bourgeois milieu and become as equally fat and sedated.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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iwbiek wrote:a violent

iwbiek wrote:
a violent revolution in america

 

A revolution need not be violent. It is enough that a series of events trigger a de facto change of the social-political order inside a frame of time which is too small for such said events to have happened due to "natural" causes.

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ZuS wrote:Short answer: no,

ZuS wrote:

Short answer: no, but college is not there to teach you psychology either. You learning stuff is just a side effect of them getting paid to indoctrinate you. It is up to you to make this "side effect" the point of your education and dump the indoctrination.

 

What?  Since when does college indoctrinate people?  What are you even talking about?


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kidvelvet wrote:What may

kidvelvet wrote:

What may change is how investors in America view their long-term investment strategies.

 

This is a possibilty. Let's see what The Wall Street Journal has got to say about that, shall we?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-invest-for-the-debt-bomb-explosion-2010-02-09

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v4ultingbassist wrote:ZuS

v4ultingbassist wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Short answer: no, but college is not there to teach you psychology either. You learning stuff is just a side effect of them getting paid to indoctrinate you. It is up to you to make this "side effect" the point of your education and dump the indoctrination.

What?  Since when does college indoctrinate people?  What are you even talking about?

Since it's an educational institution. It's like in it's name: educate. So on it's face, the institution obviously passes some ideas to you. If you think that the only ideas passed on to you have to do with practical and theoretical knowledge and none of them include elements of control, we need to talk. Arguably the whole main stream subject of history in its present form exists only for the purpose of crowd control.

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ZuS wrote:Since it's an

ZuS wrote:

Since it's an educational institution. It's like in it's name: educate. So on it's face, the institution obviously passes some ideas to you. If you think that the only ideas passed on to you have to do with practical and theoretical knowledge and none of them include elements of control, we need to talk. Arguably the whole main stream subject of history in its present form exists only for the purpose of crowd control.

 

But I haven't taken any history classes.  My classes have all been math and science.  So I would think that most of my classes were/are only practical and theoretical knowledge.


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v4ultingbassist wrote:But I

v4ultingbassist wrote:

But I haven't taken any history classes.  My classes have all been math and science.  So I would think that most of my classes were/are only practical and theoretical knowledge.

Perhaps ZuS has only taken social science and humanities classes and doesn't have our experience of taking technical classes. I had a writing class and a gender studies/feminism class in which it there was indoctrination. The writing class was obviously not supposed to be that way, but the grad student they had instructing it made it a class about how great socialism is. The gender studies class was just fact-free dogma. And it was a non-stop assault on science and objectivity since feminist so-called 'scholars' love postmodernism..

But, as an engineering student, they didn't phase me. I recognized them as attempts at indoctrination and paid lip service to the lies taught in order to pass the classes. Then I went on to learn about the things that I cared about. Technical disciplines have all the objectivity and lack of indoctrination that I need. I'm taking a class on the nuclear fuel cycle this quarter. The professor keeps warning us not to just take his word for how great nuclear power and reprocessing spent fuel are since that it is just his opinion and this is a political rather than a strictly technical issue. We can form our own opinions on those matters after learning about the science behind them. That's the way virtually all of my education has been. The only few exceptions were in bullshit time-wasting 'liberal arts' courses that everyone has to take in order to get a degree.

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British General Charles Napier while in India


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Jormungander wrote:Perhaps

Jormungander wrote:

Perhaps ZuS has only taken social science and humanities classes

 

I can obviously not speak for Mr. ZuS, but I can tell you how *I* interpreted his statement:

The conditioning bit of all education is embedded in the systemic structure of the institutions themselves. The abstract parts of the education process (the assembling and, hopefully, assimilation of data) is only a secondary purpose of the entire procedure. The most basic function is to train you to adopt a certain set of social and political habits, both as points of view and as ontological markers of a more dynamic nature.

Anyway, that's what I see in that system as well. Conditioning to become a representative for a certain "class".

Now... it would be interesting to see if I read him correctly.

 

As for what you are mentioning about "the social sciences" (which I am not sure should even be called sciences per se, but maybe rather "fields of study" that to some extent may be subjected to scientific methodology) I absofuckinglutely agree! It tends to move towards really a rather blatant display of politically correct doctrines. And if you ask naughty questions they will smack you over the head with some label of contempt.


 

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v4ultingbassist wrote:But I

v4ultingbassist wrote:

But I haven't taken any history classes.  My classes have all been math and science.  So I would think that most of my classes were/are only practical and theoretical knowledge.

Every history lesson you missed is a history lesson learned. Indoctrination by omission is one of the best ways to control people.

Omission of historical education for scientists today is in it's core criminal. No, it doesn't matter that you don't want to study history. That you think you don't have to do this or that is jouvenile and that is exactly the stage where todays education is meant to keep you - eternal child. You are told that you are educated to be a free thinking person. Free from knowing yesterday is the same as slave today.

That said, studying history in its current mainstream form should be done exclusively as a study of mass desinformation.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Jormungander wrote:Perhaps

Jormungander wrote:

Perhaps ZuS has only taken social science and humanities classes and doesn't have our experience of taking technical classes.

ZuS is a computer scientist with background in hpc & cluster computing, pattern recognition & machine learning/statistical modelling and all the math and the shit that goes with it.

The reason I tell you that you and I are indoctrinated through education and media is because I spent 2 years in a war, looking directly at the reality unfolding and reading and listening to news reports as everything happened in front of my eyes. I can't begin to explain what this means in this context, but suffice it to say that I got a different perception on truth than I would have had in the western world. History I was tought collapsed completely - a whole educational narrative, completely invalidated. It was imediately replaced by an equally elaborate and now obvious lie, which I later found out was in the making and published on for OVER 20 YEARS! I remember being in awe as it dawned on me - the academy of sciences had the new ideology and narrative ready and knew what was comming for over twenty years. From before I was born. Transition from communism to latent nationalism was seamless - same people, same professors, new henchmen, just another day in the office. Hundreds of thousands of dead, missing, raped, orphaned, millions displaced - just another day in the office for these guys.

True history became something I had to dig for if I wanted to consider myself more than a fool. As far as media goes, listening to the reports in the western world was like stepping out of reality and into a dreamworld that coud be shaped to fit any story, forget any history and just move on like nothing happened.

You think you avoid the mind shaping by studying "hard" sciences. Like a rat in a maze, you think you'll be fine as long as you don't go directly for the cheese on the other end. You won't. You first have to realise that you are not a mouse to even have a chance of stepping out of the maze. We are both bred to accept lies without blinking, bolstered and blinded by our intentionally inflated egos, open minded cretins.

Goebbels knew what he was doing and today's crowd is no less skilled - they are engineers of submission. To expect that you can break their hold on you by doing anything less than what would take to beat the world's best engineers in constructing a bridge is just lunacy. You just have to accept that pursuit of truth will have to be a two-fold endavor, no matter what your main subject of interest is. You have to know your engineering, but you have to know what your work is contributing to in general first, otherwise you can take it off the wall and piss on your diploma right now. Don't kid yourself with "I have my own agenda" bs, it's not your agenda at all. You have to put it in historical context just to be able to judge your actions and to know what you can do about it and what is practically possible and how it can be done. Just to be able to act responsibly you have to study history as hard as you would all possible uses for Gaussian distributions and even harder, because this knowledge is only rarely in the books and never in official ones.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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ZuS wrote:v4ultingbassist

ZuS wrote:

v4ultingbassist wrote:

But I haven't taken any history classes.  My classes have all been math and science.  So I would think that most of my classes were/are only practical and theoretical knowledge.

Every history lesson you missed is a history lesson learned. Indoctrination by omission is one of the best ways to control people.

Omission of historical education for scientists today is in it's core criminal. No, it doesn't matter that you don't want to study history. That you think you don't have to do this or that is jouvenile and that is exactly the stage where todays education is meant to keep you - eternal child. You are told that you are educated to be a free thinking person. Free from knowing yesterday is the same as slave today.

That said, studying history in its current mainstream form should be done exclusively as a study of mass desinformation.

 

uh?  So if I take history classes, I'm being indoctrinated.  If I'm not taking history classes, I'm being indoctrinated.  It follows from your logic that everyone is indoctrinated in any experience ever.  (Principle of explosion maybe?  just learned about that from xkcd lol).

 

" It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned."

-wiki

 

I would argue that since my major focuses on critical thinking, it can't be considered indoctrination, by definition.


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v4ultingbassist wrote:uh? 

v4ultingbassist wrote:

I would argue that since my major focuses on critical thinking, it can't be considered indoctrination, by definition.

Start with considering this: when ever has authority promoted language in public discourse that wasn't beneficial for authority? I can't think of an example. Invasions are always liberations, eradication of resistance is always fight against terrorism and lenghty occupations and exploitation is restoring peace and stability - without exception. Same goes for media (example: objective journalism lowers the quality of service and journalist requirements) and education (example: research centered institutions lower effective educational results and increase revenue).

But let's look at critical thinking without this historical context, which should be enough to make us suspicious on it's own. Critical thinking is a convenience - once I accept that critical thought is enough, I can drop this burdensome history learning stuff and still be a complete citizen! I am always suspicious of stuff that is convenient for me and something I am proud of at the same time.

Can I substantiate this suspicion further? Well, actually I can. I have real life experience of successful use of critical thinking in my own profession - it is very effective. How come? Because I have spent 6+ years learning history, conceptual designs, technical specifications , math and all the rest that lies behind my particular profession. What if I didn't have this experience and knowledge? What if I didn't have, say, math? Well, there would be a shitload of stuff I couldn't do, no matter how critical my thinking is. In fact, the less I know about a subject, the less critical thinking helps me make relevant decisions.

I think that I can now confidently say that using critical thinking in life in general requires same amount of study of life as it does any other subject matter, and that it can in no way be that critical thinking can magically get me to the right decision without consideration of the background. The historical record of skewed nature of authority-promoted concepts agrees with this view - I should not trust authority on this, even if my professor says so. Conclusion: I need to study history.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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ZuS wrote:v4ultingbassist

ZuS wrote:

v4ultingbassist wrote:

I would argue that since my major focuses on critical thinking, it can't be considered indoctrination, by definition.

Start with considering this: when ever has authority promoted language in public discourse that wasn't beneficial for authority? I can't think of an example. Invasions are always liberations, eradication of resistance is always fight against terrorism and lenghty occupations and exploitation is restoring peace and stability - without exception. Same goes for media (example: objective journalism lowers the quality of service and journalist requirements) and education (example: research centered institutions lower effective educational results and increase revenue).

But let's look at critical thinking without this historical context, which should be enough to make us suspicious on it's own. Critical thinking is a convenience - once I accept that critical thought is enough, I can drop this burdensome history learning stuff and still be a complete citizen! I am always suspicious of stuff that is convenient for me and something I am proud of at the same time.

Can I substantiate this suspicion further? Well, actually I can. I have real life experience of successful use of critical thinking in my own profession - it is very effective. How come? Because I have spent 6+ years learning history, conceptual designs, technical specifications , math and all the rest that lies behind my particular profession. What if I didn't have this experience and knowledge? What if I didn't have, say, math? Well, there would be a shitload of stuff I couldn't do, no matter how critical my thinking is. In fact, the less I know about a subject, the less critical thinking helps me make relevant decisions.

I think that I can now confidently say that using critical thinking in life in general requires same amount of study of life as it does any other subject matter, and that it can in no way be that critical thinking can magically get me to the right decision without consideration of the background. The historical record of skewed nature of authority-promoted concepts agrees with this view - I should not trust authority on this, even if my professor says so. Conclusion: I need to study history.

 

"when ever has authority promoted language in public discourse that wasn't beneficial for authority?"

 

First, the government doesn't write the dictionary.  The dictionary is more reasonably a collection of typical uses of words in discourse.

 

I think you misunderstood me.  The definition of indoctrination excludes those who can think critically, regardless of a specific subject.  I am only being taught engineering, so I am only learning a subject that requires critical thinking.  This cannot be indoctrination, by the very definition of the word.  If I am taught other things, then I could be indoctrinated, the point being, however, that I am not taking those classes.  I could also argue that you digging up 'true' history could be indoctrination.  You can't experience history for yourself.  You HAVE to take someone's perspective on it.  You could literally indoctrinate yourself by choosing which sources are true.  While I agree that critical thought within a subject requires knowledge of said subject, I disagree with your seemingly paranoid view that every person has some secret and evil agenda to indoctrinate others.  

 

 

"that it can in no way be that critical thinking can magically get me to the right decision without consideration of the background."

 

I would consider that understanding a subject is the first step in applying critical thinking, so 'consideration of the background' is built into what it means to think critically.